Happy Atheist Forum

I hope this will be stickied if it garners enough replies and becomes useful enough. Anyways, I propose that, as atheists, we are going about ridding the world of religion the wrong way.

As atheists, it's only common to see the depradations and cruelties and horrors of our planet as sourced from Religion. It makes sense, considering we see all of it being committed in the name of religion. But I think we are barking up the wrong tree. There are periods of religious intensity and periods of religious laxity, which coincide with eras of extreme uncertainty and eras of extreme prosperity. I actually believe that Religion in itself becomes fanatical only when people are scared and uncertain about their futures.

An interesting example of this are the considerably open and rational mainstream religions such as Catholocism, Presbyterianism, and Pentecostalist. If you look at them, you'll find that they are also the most homogoneous with respect to their beliefs. Almost identical in fact.

It would seem that religions are extreme when they are persecuted. Fanaticism is at it's worst when it is uncertain to survive. Take, for example, the Middle East. Islam itself is fairly non-fanatical in the mainstream, but as the uncertainty in the middle east rises, so does fanaticism. Consider that prior to the U.S. Invasion of Iraq, the country was quite secular. Even if the prosperity of Iraq was not nearly as high as western countries, the stability given by Saddam Hussein was enough to reduce fanatical extremism, which did not exist before the U.S. Occupation.

I think, the best way to rid the world of religion is to make religion secure. That is not to say that we as atheists should all join churches, but, if we could help the religious feel more secure in their lives and homes, the grip that religion has on them will surely begin to loosen.

And religion is very suited for allowing us to do this: Religion can be used to endorse quite practically any viewpoint. It's a hodge-podge mess that is open to deep penetration and wide interpretation. As atheists, we know what actions and behaviors, what policies could be set in place to help the less secure feel more secure. Dress our suggestions in the cloak of religion, and people will follow. After all, the common people don't care for rigorous logic and reason or evidence. They just care that there is a god that will make things better.

So why not tell a congregation that God put them on this earth for the sole purpose of bettering themselves? And god has bestowed upon us many gifts: reason, evidence, education, to allow us to do so?

What do you guys think?

You aim high, I like that, but what you're proposing is nothing short of world peace. Granted, that's probably the most worthy goal imaginable, but I would propose that ending the suffering of religious people would mean stripping people of religion. It's a paradox. Islam, even in moderate areas, has people that want to spread Islam further, through violent means if necessary. What can you say to the victims of a suicide bombing that's motivated not by poverty or war, but by extremist proselytization? That has to be met head-on. And what about the Dr. Tillers of the world? When some middle-class white guy that really only has to be afraid of what Fox News tells him to be afraid of hauls off and shoots a doctor because of this ancient book that doesn't even mention abortion?

It has to be a multi-pronged effort, ridding the world of this infection. We have to pressure governments to keep them from turning into theocracies, we have to push the boundaries of science and philosophy to remove the last havens of religion, we have to strive to meet head on the threat of fundamentalism, AND we have to strive to reduce the kids of suffering that foster religious extremism.

While I don't see the strong similarities between Catholicism (funny hats and worshiping saints), Pentecostalism (don't they speak in tongues?), and Presbyterian (liberal but they still don't fully accept gays)....there are churches which promote the idea of people bettering themselves for god.  Ever heard someone say that their body is a temple?  Most of the churches which have this view also tend to be the craziest; no dancing, no drinking, no swearing etc...the no everything type of churches also tend to brew extremists.

I personally do not want to tell anyone that they should be one way or the other because it would make god happy...if I was going to lie to people about god I'd be better off going into the ministry and trying to change things from the inside out.  Instead, I think we need to offer a secular community that fills the same roles as religion...a place to be around like minded people, a support group, extended family etc.  This is why the Church of Freethought was started.  People go to religion in times of need not necessarily because of the dogma but because that's where they can find the support group....if we have more secular alternatives to church then those who aren't that into the dogma in the first place will choose the secular options.

As Will stated, world peace is a very lofty goal.  I'd also add that it isn't a very practical one; I think we should be thinking in baby steps.

suicide bombers are pawns. they're used by their leader(s). all suicide bombers here are poor (bad choice of word, but i think you guys know what i mean), they have financial problems.

actually one of em said, "if i cant have a good life here, i'll have good life in heaven".

i think they are all 'brainwashed' really really good. they are all al-qaeda, so i think they are used as pawns for al-qaeda's benefit. political or not, i dont know.
there are no bomber working on their own, there must be an organization behind it.

i think a rich extremist wont do suicide bombing

Quote from: "Whitney"I personally do not want to tell anyone that they should be one way or the other because it would make god happy...if I was going to lie to people about god I'd be better off going into the ministry and trying to change things from the inside out.

I spend some of my time (now) showing fellow theists (mostly Christian Universalists) that their views on God's wrath are bogus by challenging them with real statistics on sicknesses/natural disasters etc. and who are effected by them. I'm generally able to come away making a very convincing argument and changing a few minds (that is - at least when dealing with CU's which are among the most intelligent and open minded of the Christian sects).

Because of my 30 years as a "Christian music director" (always an undercover universalist though) I have a good grasp on how evangelicals think. To help bring change from the 'inside' I would pretend to wonder out loud about some of the crazy Christian doctrines. I found that many identified with my questions as their logical minds would fight against the unreasonable dogma.  

Quote from: "Whitney"Instead, I think we need to offer a secular community that fills the same roles as religion...a place to be around like minded people, a support group, extended family etc.  This is why the Church of Freethought was started.  People go to religion in times of need not necessarily because of the dogma but because that's where they can find the support group....if we have more secular alternatives to church then those who aren't that into the dogma in the first place will choose the secular options.

Agreed. Many adopt the dogma just to fit in. That's the problem when a belief system is so CRAZY POPULAR like Christianity is in America or Islam is in Iraq.  

Quote from: "Whitney"As Will stated, world peace is a very lofty goal.  I'd also add that it isn't a very practical one; I think we should be thinking in baby steps.

I don't want to offer false hope but there is massive change afoot. In the world largest mono-theistic religion there are huge shifts away from an "us vs. them" mentality. Even former staunch Baptist Billy Graham recently spoke of all the non-Christians who he believes are part of the 'body of Christ' "whether they know it or not". We have people like Oprah Winfrey who was able to become HUGELY popular in a predominantly Christian market even while blatantly challenging the idea of Christian exclusivity.      

As one speaking from the heart of the bible belt and who personally knows hundreds of Christian leaders I'll say that they have a problem, and are almost in a panic, about congregations beginning to doubt the unreasonable dogma. Church attendance in many places is way down. When I 'came out' about my universalism and non-belief in hell etc. it sparked even more of a panic - Pastors are holding special weekend retreats trying to reign in some of the 'heresy' such as universalism. The book "The Shack" (very unorthodox view of God and with universalist leanings) has been a HUGE hit among the Christian populace - and the fundamentalist leaders are freaking out about it, devoting entire sermons to pointing out the 'false doctrines' the book contains.

Bottom line: A belief in a Creator is not going away - but creedal religion is definitely on the decline. The more positive and helpful the atheist community is (as opposed to being hostile and angry) the more the fundie dogma will end up with egg on it's metaphoric face.  

Quote from: "Will"we have to strive to meet head on the threat of fundamentalism, AND we have to strive to reduce the kids of suffering that foster religious extremism.

I would like to quote an atheist friend from another site who is the daughter of a British diplomat and has traveled the world extensively. She was posting in a thread which asked if universal atheism would bring world peace:

QuoteSounds wonderful BUT unfortunately Atheists are like all other human beings simply human with deep flaws and as much potential for harming others and evil as anyone else.

Human Nature is what stands in the way of Peace and a world where we can all put our differences aside and embrace one another as the brothers we are.

Even leaving aside fundamentalist beliefs in a supernatural being , we as humans still are all touched by greed, intolerance, hatred, lust and prejudice even without the help of hateful religion.

Atheism only means a lack of belief in a deity. It sadly does not mean we all behave rationally and with empathy towards others...

The concept of an Atheist world rid of evil sounds lovely and fabulous but I am afraid I am far too cynical to believe in such a possibility.

I don't even believe fundamentalists religious people commit crime because of Religion but instead use their Religion as a useful and convenient excuse to commit atrocities with a clear mind. Religion per se is not what kills people, to paraphrase another saying, people kill people.

We must ALL take responsibilites for our actions. We ALL have the power to behave well but chose not to.

Selfishness and our own vanities, fears and greed come up to the surface and we use every excuse to behave like Barbarians.

Humans have been adept as twisting their own beliefs to enable the worst of horrors, be it in a Religious or Atheist way since... forever. They even wrote sacred texts they could use to exploit their own desires and weaknesses and making the commiting of terrible crimes seem "acceptable" to themselves and their kinds.

As an Atheist I am only too aware that none of us can really be excluded from the realm of the "wicked". I wish it were not so but...

Bigotry, intolerance, violence and cruelty are sadly not a monopoly of the religious...

Even though I understand that religious fundamentalism fuels a LOT of the worlds problems I saw a lot of truth in her post.

My point wasn't that ending religion would end bigotry or violence, it was that in order to end religion you have to remove people's need for it, which means reducing things like hunger, poverty, war, ideological extremism, etc.

Quote from: "Will"My point wasn't that ending religion would end bigotry or violence, it was that in order to end religion you have to remove people's need for it, which means reducing things like hunger, poverty, war, ideological extremism, etc.

Agreed - I added her quote after yours as they harmonized nicely.

AISI we have an internal human conflict problem which sometimes manifests itself through corporate/national religious extremism. Even having safety and plenty of food is not a cure all as the root of all these problems (and the answers to them) originally spring from the human psyche.

Maybe fighting religion itself (as a MAIN focus) is "barking up the wrong tree" as the OP stated. Even though I can't see me ever keeping my mouth shut when people say really really unreasonable things that cause unnecessary misery, yet showing love/respect and helpfulness can be very powerful in bringing peace to most situations.

I doubt removing religion would bring harmony to the world but it would definitely be a step in the right direction. As to how it could be achieved? I have no idea. Maybe some kind of enormous event or discovery which leaves no room for doubt in the minds of most believers that there is no god. Again, i have no idea what that could be.
With the world peace thing, i think you'd have to get around the issue of money first. It would solve a lot of problems to have a society based upon something other than money. I think money causes more issues than religion.

Quote from: "Renegnicat"An interesting example of this are the considerably open and rational mainstream religions such as Catholocism, Presbyterianism, and Pentecostalist. If you look at them, you'll find that they are also the most homogoneous with respect to their beliefs. Almost identical in fact.

I don't really think the 'religions' (actually Christian denominations) you mention are "considerably open and rational" even though they are increasingly more open to science and a symbolic explanation of the Bible. A lot of the people in these movements (I've met THOUSANDS of them) are surprisingly level headed in many ways. Apparently there is a fundamental psychological need to explain where evil came from and somehow try to separate oneself from it?

Quote from: "karadan"I doubt removing religion would bring harmony to the world but it would definitely be a step in the right direction. As to how it could be achieved? I have no idea. Maybe some kind of enormous event or discovery which leaves no room for doubt in the minds of most believers that there is no god.

Science has been forcing Religions to alter their beliefs for centuries. It's a slow moving train, but at least the reality train has left the station and is chugging down the tracks!

Quote from: "karadan"Again, i have no idea what that could be.

Believers have the same hope. Like the rapture will occur and all the unbelievers will just be left standing there going "Damn!!! They were right!"  

Quote from: "karadan"With the world peace thing, i think you'd have to get around the issue of money first. It would solve a lot of problems to have a society based upon something other than money. I think money causes more issues than religion.

I think GREED causes more problems than money or religion, even though the greedy use both to try and achieve their goals.

Quote from: "zandurian"

Quote from: "Whitney"Bottom line: A belief in a Creator is not going away - but creedal religion is definitely on the decline. The more positive and helpful the atheist community is (as opposed to being hostile and angry) the more the fundie dogma will end up with egg on it's metaphoric face.  

I agree...when I was speaking earlier in this thread I was referring to Rene's idea that atheists should essentially pretend to accept theism in order to help sway the masses.  While I know there are many outspoken atheists who think a liberal Christian is just as bad as a fundamentalist Christian because both views are faith based, I disagree.  To me and in my experience talking with them, a liberal Christian is basically a deist/pantheist/pluralist/unitarian who is afraid to drop the Christian label.  It's better to focus on pointing out the flaws in fundamentalist beliefs so that those who are so inclined to reason are more likely to move towards liberal religious belief.  I don't think we are ever going to get rid of religion entirely (nor that it is necessary), we can only work to limit the existence of dangerous extremist religions.

Quote from: "zandurian"Agreed - I added her quote after yours as they harmonized nicely.

Oh! I misunderstood.  

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "zandurian"Agreed - I added her quote after yours as they harmonized nicely.

Oh! I misunderstood.  ;)

Quote from: "Whitney"I agree...when I was speaking earlier in this thread I was referring to Rene's idea that atheists should essentially pretend to accept theism in order to help sway the masses.  While I know there are many outspoken atheists who think a liberal Christian is just as bad as a fundamentalist Christian because both views are faith based, I disagree.  

To be frank - my observations are that both liberalism and fundamentalism operate on both sides.

Some (most?) believers are obsessed with the religious/creedal aspects of believing in God ie: proper doctrine and being 'right' ect. Most are sincere and believe they are serving the greater good by helping others 'get right' with God. A smaller percentage understand that all people are just trying to do the best they can and that love for fellow man and relieving present suffering are all important. This leads to activism for social justice and universal peace.  

Now, I can say the exact same thing about atheists. It seems some are obsessed with proving their rightness and proving that their non-belief in God is correct. Most are sincere and believe they are serving the greater good by helping others 'get right' with reality. A smaller percentage understand that all people are just trying to do the best they can and for various reasons they are delusional about many many things (whether it be an unreasonable religious delusion or an unreasonable racist delusion or an unreasonable self importance/greed delusion - whatever). This also leads to activism for social justice and universal peace.

Does this seem to be a fair appraisal to you guys here?

I am just as frustrated as any non-believer about unreasonable religious delusions but I recognize that I must lead by example. When it's obvious to people that I am at peace and that I have the best interests of others at heart just as my own, things seem to work out much better in all areas of life.  

Quote from: "Whitney"To me and in my experience talking with them, a liberal Christian is basically a deist/pantheist/pluralist/unitarian who is afraid to drop the Christian label.

Yep. It's back to that "wanting to belong" (community) aspect we talked about earlier.

Quote from: "Whitney"It's better to focus on pointing out the flaws in fundamentalist beliefs so that those who are so inclined to reason are more likely to move towards liberal religious belief.  

This is why I praise God for atheists.    I particularly like how Robert Ingersoll busted on hell believers and organized religion in general.

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think we are ever going to get rid of religion entirely (nor that it is necessary), we can only work to limit the existence of dangerous extremist religions.

And not only for the sake of physical safety but mental stability as well. I had to get out of church entirely because it was messing with my teen daughter's head so badly. Of course that didn't solve all her problems but at least now she can find her own path instead of being sucked into a swirling vortex of 'end time' religious hogwash.

Ending religion sounds like a good thought to me.

Atheists aren't allowed in church though. And by the way atheism is fake and so is evolution.

atheists in recent studies have been found to have lower iq points but thats okay atheists just stop thinking and argueing and let religious people make choices for you and decide what you do. now let us pray to the almighty one

i am captain awesome and i approve of this message

Quote from: "captain awsome"atheists in recent studies have been found to have lower iq points...

I suspect that after this pathetic attempt at trolling, the "Captains Awesome" won't be back.  On the off chance that you do return, I would be interested in seeing a source for the studies you mention.  It would be surprising if they actually existed, other than in your imagination.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 04x5290116 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5290116)

check and mate since you have been utterly defeated i will go read the bible. it is okay convert to religion and your iq will go up Now let us pray


i am captain awesome and i approve of this message

Well, there you have it. The verdict is in. Christianity 2 > atheists et communists still 0

I think Captain Awesomer is parodying religion, guys. His style of posting is rather tongue-in-cheek...  

tongue-in-cheek trolling is still trolling.