Happy Atheist Forum

Maybe this should be posted in a Xian forum… but I’m not looking to be preached to or saved. Just looking for honest opinions

What was the purpose of killing Christ on the cross? I don’t mean the Romans or the Government at the time, but the whole sacrifice thing.  It get the rules of the time.
The best explanation I have received is original sin. But original sin never is mentioned until I believe the book of Paul. I know mentions in the New Testament saying because Adam sinned all have sinned. But that totally contradicts the Old Testament that often states you will be held and judged by your own actions. Not the sins of the father ect. Also in the fall of Adam, God only curses mankind (cause that’s what loving fathers do.. right?) to manual labor and painful childbirth. Also snakes are cursed to slither on their bellies and bite at men’s heels while men smack them on the head. Maybe that when snakes lost the ability to talk too…. No mention of original sin in the story of Adam or in the Old Testament at all.
Anyhow. If Jesus sacrifice was for “original sin” and the removal of this what all really changed? What was gained at Christ’s death? Before Christ was killed no one went to heaven or whatever?

Personally I think original sin was invented by man. And thrown in there by some self hating perverted born again. So all in all I suppose what Im asking is, if original sin is taken out of the equation what was the purpose of Christs sacrifice? And even if he rid the world of original sin what was really gained?

What, do you think we're actually going to give a satisfactory answer?

Jesus didn't exist. He was all mythology. However, I will say that in mythology, usually when someone comes back from the dead, it's simply for their own glory and a kind of "sign" that they really are a god. After all, god's don't die, right?

Whereas, if he had preached, and preached, and preached... and was never crucified... then what's the point? Not a very good story, and it would seem like people just ignored the dude rather than followed him.

so: 1. It makes a better story.
2. It aids in the conversion of gentiles.

'nuff said.  

Lol that answer is far from unsatisfactory. Yeah I guess you have to die to be a martyr. Wouldnt want to do anything half assed.

Hey, G-roll, need me to make an avatar for you? What would you like?

I'm not a very good writer, but if I were writing the book of Matthew and needed a supreme act to endear the main character to people, it would be through sacrifice. This guy that selflessly became human in order to help people live (what he believed to be) a better and more moral life had to eventually allow himself to die in order to finally get people to really commit to is teachings.

What I don't get is why they brought him back.

Imagine a classic tale of sacrifice for the greater good, like the battle of Thermopylae. 300 Spartans defended the pass at Thermopylae against hundreds of thousands of Persians so that their friends and family could leave their homes safely. Each and every Spartan fought their very best until the last of them had fallen. They may have all died, but their sacrifice is the stuff of legend. Would that tale be as interesting if like 30 of them survived? Sure, it would be a great feat surviving such unbelievable odds, but wouldn't their survival take an essential ingredient from the story?

okay, going to take stab at this, its been a long time since CCD class but I think that Jesus was dying to release the souls in Purgatory into Heaven rather than making them wait for the End of Days when all will be judge... It's like getting the get out free jail card in Monopoly then getting a free trip to Go and collect you $200.

Or, its all bullshit anyway...

Beside others, Jesus had to die to be able to pop up from the dead again and to demonstrate that way the claimed god-status. (How convenient for the preachers.)

1. It doesn't show anything. It's just an old story with no evidence.

Let's assume he acutally was a real person and the crossing happend.

2. It only shows, that it made the appearence as if he would have died and was rosen from the dead later on. Uri Geller & Co. can do that too. (And those days they didn't have youtube to check it out.  :). Later on he used his supposed dead for producing a nice miracle for his fellow people and to vanish then from the puplic in order to run away from the romans. You find people who believe he travelled to India. They even "know" where he lived there I think.

Let's assume he actually was dead and came back to life.

4. That's still not good enough. It shows, he was dead and came back to life. Although this is something reallyreally astonishing, it does surely not prove the god-claims. He could have been any kind of supernatural being, maybe even the devil, or a demon, or a vampire or whatever crazy stuff you can imagine. Or maybe he wasn't but he had a supernatural helper. This helper could have been god, but that doesn't automatically make Jesus a god too.

In summery: Nothing would be crazy enough, that you wouldn't find someone who believes it. Guess that's faith ...

Well the bible says nothing of purgatory. I guess that’s just cheery dark ages philosophy. Those guys where always a big ray of sunshine  
I did go and read some Christian writings that look into the whole crucifixion deal and it seemed like it pushed: what else does jesus have to do for you? It seemed to attempt a guilt trip on the reader. To question this ultimate sacrifice for the whole world. I just had the mental image of apologetics scolding people questioning this occurrence. “What else does jesus need to do for you to satisfy your simple question?” I guess if one wants to believe bad enough this would be a sufficient answer.

Quote from: "G-Roll"“What else does jesus need to do for you...

Actually, what kind of sacrifice was it (assuming the mostly believed version with crucifixion and resurrection is true). I often ask that question, but somehow christians are never able to see it like that: If I would have been in Jesus shoes (if he did wear some, ), donating a few unpleasant hours for the rescue of the whole mankind AND knowing that I won't be dead AND knowing I would become a real god afterwards ... guess I would have chosen the cross, too.

Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

Quote from: "Renegnicat"Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

I always ask (I don't know if someone covered it here i'm not re-reading everything )  how is Christ dying a cross a sacrifice?  Since (to most) Christ is God then he knew he'd get beat to death and knew when he was dead he got to be God again.  How is that a sacrifice?  If I knew after dying I'd get to be God do you think dying would bother me or that i'd consider it a sacrifice?  

Also the truly screwed up part is that since he was God he did this (if you are a Christian) to save you from hell.  He invented a loophole to a rule he made up.  So why was the sacrifice necessary?  Couldn't he just have said .... fuck it and forgave everyone?  Not only is Christ on the cross not a sacrifice its nowhere near logical.  I've never had a Christian be able to explain to me satisfactory why THE ONLY WAY God could have forgiven our sins was by sending himself to earth and being beaten to death.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Renegnicat"Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

I always ask (I don't know if someone covered it here i'm not re-reading everything )  how is Christ dying a cross a sacrifice?  Since (to most) Christ is God then he knew he'd get beat to death and knew when he was dead he got to be God again.  How is that a sacrifice?  If I knew after dying I'd get to be God do you think dying would bother me or that i'd consider it a sacrifice?  

Also the truly screwed up part is that since he was God he did this (if you are a Christian) to save you from hell.  He invented a loophole to a rule he made up.  So why was the sacrifice necessary?  Couldn't he just have said .... fuck it and forgave everyone?  Not only is Christ on the cross not a sacrifice its nowhere near logical.  I've never had a Christian be able to explain to me satisfactory why THE ONLY WAY God could have forgiven our sins was by sending himself to earth and being beaten to death.

Well God is all powerful, all loving, all knowing, etc., so... and he has a plan for all of us. God moves in mysterious ways.

Does anyone think the idea of an all powerful God having a long term 10,000 year plan seem a little... dumb? If he were all-powerful he wouldn't need so much time to punish a dumb angel, if he were all-knowing he would have gotten really bored by now, if he actually had infinite love-mercy-grace how is it possible to send anyone to experience pain and loneliness for eternity?

A question that I have is what price did Jesus pay that would be considered redeeming of man kind.  He was a convicted criminal who was sentenced to death.  The Romans considered him a seditionist and that is what he was being executed for.  The flogging, beating and torture would have been done to all convicted criminals who were being crucified.  There was no difference between Jesus punishment and execution and the punishment and executions of the other convicted criminals.

  The contradictions and lies surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection give no clear indication that there was any grand plan at work here.  Just another criminal being executed on an ordinary day.  According to John Jesus did not tell the apostles anything about dying and being resurrected the apostles figured that Jesus was dead they were not expecting his return from the dead.  All of the resurrection stories are contradictory all of the stories of what happened at the sepulcher were contradictory and inconsistent with each other.

  Jesus was a Rabbi who ran afoul of the Romans who considered him a seditionist and ordered his execution.  Jesus died and end of story.  The apostles scrambled around trying to figure out a way to make a buck of the dead guy on the cross since the dead guy on the cross was their meal ticket.  And it is the apostles who concocted this whole God/Jesus fantasy.  

  The miracles recorded for the crucifixion are lies as John himself verify’ in his Gospel.  The miracles at the sepulcher were lies as the contradictions and inconsistencies of the Gospels show.  There was no great redeeming of mankind though there may have been a great damning of mankind with the creation of the Christian religion.
 

The gospel of Judas actually has Jesus telling Judas to sell him out. So that Jesus would have set in motion a series of events that would lead to his sacrifice or execution.
The reason I think it was taken out is it brings up Adams son Seth. And Jesus is equated with Seth: "The first is Seth, who is called Christ" and also says no mortal being can enter the Kingdom, and goes on about some kind of ancient cosmology stuff.
I would assume that Jesus had some idea about the plans of god his father, or if he was god (the trinity) that he knew his own plan. Just why does god need to kill himself or his son in the mortal flesh if he is all powerful, created man in his image, created sin and our ablity to sin, and so on....
Why not just be rid of it and be done with it. How is killing Jesus necessary to whatever god was truly trying to achieve?

I doubt it will ever make since to me.  

If a God wished to exert his authority and power over his creations I would think that he would be obvious about it.  Jesus was a very ordinary in his appearance and actions.  He was a Rabbi, as hundreds of other Rabbi’s in the area.  The claims of miracles are more likely imaginary.  The Romans worshipped and respected dozens of Gods if Jesus had demonstrated God like powers before the Centurions and Romans it would have been unlikely that they would have treated him as a mere criminal.

  Or even simpler Jesus could have removed the Romans from the Holy Land, destroyed the false priesthood and reformed a new priesthood based upon his teachings and began fresh.  Why would a true God demonstrate his supreme power by not demonstrating his supreme power.  There was nothing unusual about Jesus’ life and death for his time period.  How many claimed messiah’s died before or after the death of Jesus.  How many Rabbi’s were marked as insurgents or seditionists.  

  If God/Jesus had pealed himself off of the cross in front of hundreds of witness’s and Centurions healed himself and dropped a few of the Centurions in their tracks, this would probably have worked far better then the way it was done.
 

QuoteIf God/Jesus had pealed himself off of the cross in front of hundreds of witness’s and Centurions healed himself and dropped a few of the Centurions in their tracks, this would probably have worked far better then the way it was done.

well that would require him to actually be the son of god or god made flesh.

LOL yep it would but since he was not the son of god, he died the death of a criminal.

Jesus Christ on the cross is precious to His people, I relize it means nothing to so many, and I know that a person( like myself) can not change your mind or your heart. I do know that when a person is convicted of  sin in their life by the Holy Spirit , it is a conviction you can not get off your mind until it is dealt with. The word of God says that all have sinned, There is no one righteous, not even one and the penalty for that sin is death,but while we were still sinners Christ died for us, and the gift of God is eternal life. We confess our sins, ask for forgiveness, since we have been rebels against a holy God.  justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  As I said before this means nothing to many, you read and listen but do not understand as it is written My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me( John 10:27)
Are you convicted of sin in your life? if so the only way of peace and salvation is through the cross of Jesus Christ.

To twmac1

  I recognize Jesus as being a man of God, teacher of God, and Guided of God.  I consider his public teachings before the Jews in public to be divine in nature.  But God he is not, will not be and cannot be.  I have an Atheist in another group or may be in this group who’s signature says a quote from Gandhi.  It goes something like this.  (I like your Christ, I just done care for your Christians).

  This is how I am, I like and respect Jesus the man and his public teachings.  I simply despise those Christians who claim to worship him with their lips, but reject him with their actions.
 

Mark,
    Amen to that last statement, I think the right word would be hypocrite. Being christian I do take the the Bible as the word of God ( I know that is another discussion ) but your statement of Jesus not being God is contradictive to the bible in John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one ( this is just one example), but i also admit that the doctrine of the trinity is very difficult to comprehend even for one who pursues an answer, I have found that sometimes I have to just bow my head and say Lord thou knowest.
      Thanks again for reminding me that before the world christians have to walk our talk or we destroy our testimonies before unbelievers.

To twmac1

  The Bible Lies, it is contradictory and inconsistent.  The Bible has no value other then for a emergency supply of toilet paper or as kindling for starting a fire.  The only thing that the bible contains that is worth anything at all is the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews.  Everything thing else contained in the bible has as much value as a pile of steaming pile of male bovine solid waste material in the middle of the field.

  While I respect Jesus and his public teachings I despise Christianity.  Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus the man nor do they have anything to do with his public teachings.

But how was it really a sacrifice for God to take on human flesh and then let it be tortured to death?  God got better.  God always knew that he wouldn't actually die so how is his death a sacrifice?  It's like making a clone, transferring your intelligence into that clone then killing the clone but then repairing it so it didn't actually die.  You made yourself experience how horrible life can be, but not really sacrificing anything.

Is it that God was ignorant of how horrid life could be but the suffering of his flesh as Jesus made him realize what a prick he'd been making humans to suffer so?  Jesus suffered on the cross (if he existed, etc.) but millions have suffered worse.  There are those who suffered a lifetime then died in agony, there are those who took a week to die impaled on the short stake, and, if the Bible were real, there would be those who were tortured even worse, for centuries in Hell before Jesus was even born.

Quote from: "twmac1"Mark,
    Amen to that last statement, I think the right word would be hypocrite. Being christian I do take the the Bible as the word of God ( I know that is another discussion ) but your statement of Jesus not being God is contradictive to the bible in John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one ( this is just one example), but i also admit that the doctrine of the trinity is very difficult to comprehend even for one who pursues an answer, I have found that sometimes I have to just bow my head and say Lord thou knowest.
      Thanks again for reminding me that before the world christians have to walk our talk or we destroy our testimonies before unbelievers.

How much of the bible do you ignore?

To LoneMateria

  The problem is they do not ignore enough of the bible.  If Christianity ignored everything in the bible except for the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews they would probably be as good of a religion as Buddhists have.  Since the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are very similar to each other.  Christianity goes down the drain though because they actually claim the teachings of the Old Testament and Apostles are actually superior to the public teachings of their Jesus.
 

I understand completely disregarding the bible, but I really don't understand saying "I'll take what I like and disregard the rest."

Just out of curiosity, why the heck would you believe the public teachings of Christ, but nothing else the writers documented? because you like them? I can do that to anything, watch, (pretending to be a christian) I'll take what I like out of what you say, and disregard the rest.

Mark L Holland,
"There is...great redeeming of mankind though...Jesus...being resurrected."

OMG your a christian! wow! and all I had to do was disregard the words I didn't like (aka: your actual points) and keep the words you like (aka un-honest word mining.)

I personally say take it all and try to harmonize it, or disregard it all as just other people talking.  but whatever.

To Ihateusernames

  The bible cannot be harmonized, as for rejecting the bible as a whole while accepting the public teachings of Jesus.  When someone says something that makes sense then it makes sense.  The public teachings of Jesus like Buddha and Gandhi, make sense.  They stress personal responsibility and personal growth.  Bettering oneself.  They are all good teachings and are good ways to live ones life.

  The Bible, Torah and Koran for the most part are focused first and foremost upon how to do unto others before they themselves can do the same unto you.  This type of teachings suck.
 

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"To Ihateusernames

  The bible cannot be harmonized, as for rejecting the bible as a whole while accepting the public teachings of Jesus.  When someone says something that makes sense then it makes sense.  The public teachings of Jesus like Buddha and Gandhi, make sense.  They stress personal responsibility and personal growth.  Bettering oneself.  They are all good teachings and are good ways to live ones life.

  The Bible, Torah and Koran for the most part are focused first and foremost upon how to do unto others before they themselves can do the same unto you.  This type of teachings suck.
 

Ok, then, because I don't really want to put the effort into writing a reply (I'm a lazy christmas-eve celebrating person, what can I say) I'll stick with your philosophy.

"There is...great redeeming of mankind though...Jesus...being resurrected."  Wow, how appropriate for you to say that during this season (kinda odd you feel this way on a atheist forums tho, but meh whatever tickles your pickle!)

To Ihateusernames

  I am not sure why you keep referencing the resurrection.  I do not believe that there was a resurrection, all of the stories contradict themselves and I consider them worthless.  I do not believe that Jesus was a supernatural being I do not believe in the so called miracles performed.  He was a teacher and I believe he was guided in those beliefs but he was a man.  Salvation is not through Jesus.  Every man women and child ever born, being born or ever will be born with a soul has salvation.
 

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"To Ihateusernames

  I am not sure why you keep referencing the resurrection.  I do not believe that there was a resurrection, all of the stories contradict themselves and I consider them worthless.  I do not believe that Jesus was a supernatural being I do not believe in the so called miracles performed.  He was a teacher and I believe he was guided in those beliefs but he was a man.  Salvation is not through Jesus.  Every man women and child ever born, being born or ever will be born with a soul has salvation.
 

I commend you on missing the satirical point of my posts so absolutely and stupendously. : )

Congratulations!

Okay I asked the question (I didn't know if the person would come back or not who knows s/he may be back after x-mas) just to say essentially that no one today follows the bible to the letter.  Jesus said that everyone was to follow the laws of the OT with a few new ones.  No one follows all 613 laws of the OT.  The user was gonna cherry pick from the bible and so was I.

Oh and Mark I don't agree Jesus was a good teacher since after all he told everyone how hard they needed to beat their slaves.  He may have said one or two good things but some of the crap he said was as absurd as the bible itself.

To Ihateusernames

  Hey if I got you to smile then I do not care how stupid I might look  :bananacolor:

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"To Ihateusernames

  Hey if I got you to smile then I do not care how stupid I might look  :bananacolor:

Meh, your intellectual bigotry is rather obvious in your posts, so I already realized that you don't really invest yourself to any real degree in attempting to think through arguments.  

To Ihateusernames

  I am arguing Christian doctrine, I do not need to make sense other then to make their arguments to make even less sense then mine.  I do not attempt to change the thoughts of Atheists or non Christian Theists.  All I care about is invalidating Christian beliefs.

 To LoneMateria

You said:

How much of the bible do you ignore?

  The short answer is that I ignore everything other then the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews that deals only with personal responsibilities and personal growth.  All else is junk.
 

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"To LoneMateria

  For me the only valid teachings are those given in public and before the Jews.  While there are some that can be invalidated such as Luke 4:18 where Jesus was said to have spoken in public in a synagogue.   The prophecy he claimed to be fulfilling was misquoted and as such invalidated, this story was something that Luke created it did not happen.  

  The actual public teachings basically boil down to being no different then Karma.  His teachings are simply this, if you do positive action to others then Karma (Jesus’ God) would do positive actions to you.  If you do negative actions to others then Karma (Jesus’ God) would do negative actions to you.

  His public teachings basically concerned how an individual should live.  And that you should concern yourself bettering yourself.  And not worrying about others except in how you may help them.
 lol

Okay now I disagree with the Karma notion.  Karma basically is what goes around comes around not do one thing wrong and get eternally tortured forever.  Also isn't the sermon on the mount (where Jesus tells everyone how hard to beat their slaves) a teaching to the Jews?

Like I said I know Jesus said a few good things ... but he also gave some terrible advice and advocated slavery.

Quote from: "Mark L Holland"To Ihateusernames

  I am arguing Christian doctrine, I do not need to make sense other then to make their arguments to make even less sense then mine.  I do not attempt to change the thoughts of Atheists or non Christian Theists.  All I care about is invalidating Christian beliefs.

 ...
 :bananacolor:

That pretty much sums up your thoughts on things : )  Good luck constructing arguments people will even listen to!