Happy Atheist Forum

Some person I recently met says he will give me $1000 if I can "disprove the Bible". I'm going to get the specifics on "the challenge" but my first thought is that if I merely show a factual flaw in it then it proves that not all of it is true. Proving this is easy (I'm thinking Luke and Matthew contradictions) but convincing him could be the only challenge. So what would you say is the most overwhelming proof that there was a major factual error in the Bible. After all there's tons of 'em!

Quote from: "Sophus"Some person I recently met says he will give me $1000 if I can "disprove the Bible".

Remember to noticeably donate the money to charity, just to rub it in. Maybe keep a bit buy yourself a decent hamburger, though. mmm...

Your best bet are direct contradictions, to which there are entire websites devoted, but I prefer simple factual errors like the Biblical geo-centric universe, flat-Earth (Daniel 4:10-11), etc. Twice in Pslams and once in 1 Chronicles, the Bible clearly states that the planet earth is stationary, for example. The earth is not stationary, and it not only can be moved, but it has been moved and is moving right now. And don't let this person try to get away with relative position, that doesn't fly in physics.

I'm a little confused on the challenge.  Will he pay you to show him the ENTIRE bible is factually wrong?  Or that the bible is unreliable?   I'm not actually sure the challenge and I doubt you will see any money ... people often times when they do those challenges will move the goal post.  I can't remember the apologists name but he was offering anyone $25,000 to prove to him evolution exists ... but he would keep moving the goal posts ... it also couldn't be evolution by a scientific standard it had to be by his standards and was expecting evidence that would disprove evolution to prove it ... like the crocoduck -_-.

Anyway If you are going to try and show errors you have the option of showing him errors that have occurred throughout the bibles history.  Reginus and I have been doing some back and forwards here (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3887) which he seems to have given up on.  It goes through some of the history of the bible, but no where near all of it.  You can bring up that what is "infallible" in the bible came down to a vote.  That Jesus's divinity was decided in the council of Nicea and stuff like that.

This guy is going to have an "out" for everything you tell him. If you want proof, try it with me. As a former christian apologist, I was very good at moving the goalposts and making definitions fit my view of the bible. It sucks, but that's what he'll do if he's even playing with two brain cells.

Contradictions are actually the hardest things to use as "proof" the bible isn't factually right. From the muddled definitions of "contrdictions" that apologists use, to the old standard of, "In this case, the fact that the authors of this account disagreed is proof that it IS true." (warped logic).

It also depends on whether your friend is a "literal" christian. As in, every word, every period, question mark, comma, is EXACTLY the way it was originally written and if it is to be taken literally or allegorically, etc.

Like I said, they will move the goalposts on you. But it will be fun to try, just to see what he says. Feel free to practice here first. We'll help prepare you.

If you want the money, make sure that you have plenty of time. Sit him down, and go, line by line, over EVERY error in the bible. Every single one. If he can move the goalpost on every single error, then call him a hypocrite and go get yourself a nice hamburger.  

Quote from: "McQ"This guy is going to have an "out" for everything you tell him. If you want proof, try it with me. As a former christian apologist, I was very good at moving the goalposts and making definitions fit my view of the bible. It sucks, but that's what he'll do if he's even playing with two brain cells.

Contradictions are actually the hardest things to use as "proof" the bible isn't factually right. From the muddled definitions of "contrdictions" that apologists use, to the old standard of, "In this case, the fact that the authors of this account disagreed is proof that it IS true." (warped logic).

It also depends on whether your friend is a "literal" christian. As in, every word, every period, question mark, comma, is EXACTLY the way it was originally written and if it is to be taken literally or allegorically, etc.

Like I said, they will move the goalposts on you. But it will be fun to try, just to see what he says. Feel free to practice here first. We'll help prepare you.

Yeah, I'm not really expecting to win. Ha ha... proving something is one thing. Convincing... another.But either way it's worth a shot. :|  ] and then possibily also go onto my idea]:

The contradictions of geneaologies in Luke and Matthew for Joseph creates, as noted by Paul Carlson, two problems for Christianity:  1) to explain away the existence of two genealogies of Joseph, now rendered meaningless, and 2) to explain how Jesus was a descendant of David.

And although it's not directly related the fact that most of the people who wrote about Jesus never saw him is pretty good evidence that they were BSing the whole thing.

Well, a contradiction I love to bring up is Judas Iscariot's death. Two different account: Hanged himself, or dashed himself upon the rocks. The moronic apologist answer most often given is that it's no contradiction at all: Judas hanged himself on a tree which had a branch that hung out over a long drop down to some rocks. The branch broke and he fell upon the rocks.  

The Sun stopping in the sky is another good one. It indicates an Earth-centered Solar system (I guess then it would be called a Terran System). Even if they say it doesn't indicate that, it's still screwed up, because it doesn't say the Earth stopped spinning, which it should in order for the Sun to appear stopped. If the Sun was actually stopped, then the entire Solar system would have to have stopped along with it to keep stable, and the bible doesn't say that. An event that big should be mentioned, right?

Sophus with the two genealogies I've heard them use as an excuse well ... one is Jesus's mother and the other is Joseph.  You can hit him on both of these responses.  One Joseph was not Jesus's father (since he is the son of God) and therefore his linage is irrelevant since he is not Jesus father and that linage doesn't apply to him.  And two in biblical times the linage was through the father so the account can't be of Marys.  Again moving the goal post will probably happen here.

McQ about the Judas's death if memory serves the one account of him dying on the rocks says he fell head first.... if you are first hung you wont fall head first.  If he tries to explain this away with hypothetical situations ask him, "Do you think Jesus would want you making up stuff to add to the bible?"  Again this is still not likely to convince him of anything other then you are a dick for challenging him.  

(Just a thought ... imagine how screwed up it would be if you convinced him and then he wrote you a $2000 check and when you went to cash it, it bounced.)

I bet you $1000 dollars he wont pay, people never pay on stupid bets.

You should have made it a slap bet. So if you prove him wrong you get to slap the shit out of him.

FYI: He's a member of Mensa.

Quote from: "Sophus"FYI: He's a member of Mensa.

... meh.

Haven't had a very high opinion of Mensa since I went to a meeting and watched the other members be amazed by some very simple magic tricks...

Plus, everyone was looking up their next sentence in the unabridged "Dictionary of Really Big Words".

I'd rather not.

BTW, my bet is that you can't win.
JoeActor

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Sophus"FYI: He's a member of Mensa.

... meh.

Haven't had a very high opinion of Mensa since I went to a meeting and watched the other members be amazed by some very simple magic tricks...

Plus, everyone was looking up their next sentence in the unabridged "Dictionary of Really Big Words".

I'd rather not.

BTW, my bet is that you can't win.
JoeActor

Oh, I think I'll win... just not the prize.

Here is an example of what I said before about the Judas thing and there being "no contradictions" in the bible. I was very up to speed with this stuff guys. Believe me, it is to my shame that I used to spout this bullshit, but I was very knowledgeable in apologist tactics.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 654AAyPZJS (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091013154654AAyPZJS)

Quote from: "Sophus"Oh, I think I'll win... just not the prize.

OH NO YOU WOENT U R GOING TO HELL!!!!

Quote from: "Sophus"Some person I recently met says he will give me $1000 if I can "disprove the Bible". I'm going to get the specifics on "the challenge" but my first thought is that if I merely show a factual flaw in it then it proves that not all of it is true. Proving this is easy (I'm thinking Luke and Matthew contradictions) but convincing him could be the only challenge. So what would you say is the most overwhelming proof that there was a major factual error in the Bible. After all there's tons of 'em!

Be sure to give the good folks at skepticsannotatedbible.com a good cut of your profits, and us of course.

 

This is from my web site bible,lies.  enjoy you thousand dollars

  In Luke they go to Bethlehem to be taxed, Mary has the baby, And there was great fan fare with the shepherds spreading the word abroad. eight days later Jesus is circumcised and after Mary’s purification they went to Jerusalem where Jesus is proclaimed the Christ by Simeon.  They then went back home to Nazareth and every year journeyed to Jerusalem for pass over.  Verse 42 clearly says this was an ongoing ritual for Jesus was 12 at this time that they went and they had gone every year since his birth.  

  In Matthew Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in a house in Bethlehem, according to the wise men Jesus should have been around two years old, two years past the taxing recorded in Luke.  It was their estimation that Herod used to kill all children under two in Bethlehem and in the coastal cities.  Joseph is told to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt until the death of Herod.  After the death of Herod, Joseph feared the son of  Herod and turned aside into parts of Galilee.  Joseph was returning home to Bethlehem in Judea before God told him in a dream to turn aside into Galilee where he came into and dwelt in Nazareth.

 Let’s take it from the top, Matthew claims that Herod only found out about the new born king when the wise men showed up.  But in Luke the shepherds were spreading the word abroad that the king was born a full two years earlier.  No secret there and a big deal was made at the temple in Jerusalem when the infant Jesus was presented and Simeon declared Jesus the Christ, according to Matthew, two year old baby Jesus and family went into Egypt and stayed there until Herod died.  According to Luke Baby Jesus and family lived in Nazareth and journeyed to Jerusalem every year for Passover which is where Herod lived according to Matthew Herod wanted Jesus dead so badly that he ordered the killing of all two year olds and younger in Bethlehem.  But Jesus visited Jerusalem every year after birth for 12 years

  This of course while Luke claims baby Jesus and family were happily living in Nazareth  awaiting their next pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Passover while Matthew claims the mass murder of all children 2 years and younger was happening in Bethlehem while baby Jesus and family were hiding in fear in Egypt.  These two stories are lies.  Neither story has any evidence to back them and they contradict each other they are lies.
The Rama prophecy that is claimed to have been full filled by Herod’s killing of the children is a false claim and is a lie

  Matthew 2:17  Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,  Mt 2:18  In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

  Jeremiah 31:15  Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.  Jer 31:16  Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.  Jer 31:17  And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

 This is a rule two prophecy, the author of Matthew tried to show that the killing of the children had been prophesied.  It had not been, In Jeremiah, 31:16 and 31:17 God says the children would return home.  Also the name of the prophet is not Jeremy.   

  Matthew 2:23  And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

 I could find no reference in the Old Testament to, He shall be called a Nazarene.  The closes I could come, was to Sampson the Nazarite.  So either the author lied again or his reference was to Sampson not Christ.  I consider this a rule three prophecy.

Also

Herod , also known as Herod I or Herod the Great (born 74 BC, died 4 BC in Jericho, was a Roman client king of Israel.[1] He is often confused with his son Herod Antipas, also of the Herodian dynasty, who was ruler of Galilee (4 BC â€" 39 AD) during the time of John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth. Herod is known for his colossal building projects in Jerusalem and other parts of the ancient world, including the rebuilding of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, sometimes referred to as Herod’s Temple. Some details of his biography can be gleaned from the works of the 1st century AD Roman-Jewish historian Josephus Flavius.

So Herod the great died 4 years before Jesus’ Birth, Herod’s son ruled from 4 years before his birth to 39 years after Jesus’ birth so according to this Jesus would have had to have stayed in Egypt for 37 years if he moved there when he was 2 years old, before attempting to return to Bethlehem and Joseph deciding to move to Nazareth.

So it would be impossible for Jesus to have spent his first 12 years living in Nazareth and journeying to Jerusalem 12 times for Passover as Luke claims if he spent 37 years after he was 2 years old living in Egypt. As Matthew claims. Sorry, but as the old saying goes it simply does not compute.