Happy Atheist Forum

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-af-nigeria-child-witches,0,5276725.story

For those of you who don't know for years now children in Nigeria and the surrounding areas are being accused of witchcraft and tortured and killed because of it in the name of exorcisms.  Nigeria is a very religious region of the world in which several conflictive religions coexist.  But guess which one is performing exorcisms by pouring acid on children, trying to saw of their heads and put nails in their heads?  You guessed it Christianity, but not just any old type of Christianity.  Pentecostal Evangelical Christianity.  That's right introduce stupidity to superstition and this is what you get.  But why kids?  Because they can't defend themselves.  Seeing this article makes me want to punch every religious person that exists.

Atheists need to make a stand against this type of barbarism and ignorance.  What can we do though?  How can we stop this from spreading?  Any suggestions?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Atheists need to make a stand against this type of barbarism and ignorance.  What can we do though?  How can we stop this from spreading?  Any suggestions?

Nuke 'em  

Jk, anyway, I'm a believer in the power-under approach, as opposed to the power-over approach. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is provide a home and therapy for the victims, and poverty-lifting education for those in the area. Demonifying the pastors and trying to put them in prison, etc. will not solve the problem, but will only further brew hatred.

Meanwhile poor children get abused and murdered because some asshat wants to make money ... Sitting idly by is just watching them do it.

Quote from: "Reginus"Nuke 'em  

Joke understood.

Quote from: "Reginus"Jk, anyway, I'm a believer in the power-under approach, as opposed to the power-over approach. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is provide a home and therapy for the victims, and poverty-lifting education for those in the area. Demonifying the pastors and trying to put them in prison, etc. will not solve the problem, but will only further brew hatred.

Can you provide links for the power-under versus power-over approaches? It seems to me that the thing to do is to prevent the abuse of children. And who is demonifying the pastors? I'm not demonifying any pastors. It's not demonification. It's the deepest contempt I can think of. I'm crying right now. I cannot find words to express my moral outrage.

Have you ever been raped? This kind of torture seems similar to what I've been through. Should we just give rape victims therapists? How much of a person can a therapist fix do you think? Do you even have any idea? Should we just let these rapists and abusers get away with it? Again, have you ever ever been raped? Has anything even remotely bad ever happened to you? If so you are lucky.

Quote from: "AlP"Can you provide links for the power-under versus power-over approaches?

A book I recently read called "Three Cups of Tea" comes to mind. It is essentially about this guy who created a foundation operated in Afghanistan which builds schools for children, as an alternative for kids that would normally join the Taliban. It has been overwhelmingly effective at countering terrorism in the area compared to US military strikes, so much that the Pentagon recently offered several million to the foundation.

All in all, my philosophy is that fire cannot stop the spread of fire. Only love can do that.

Also, it would be helpful to know if these pastors are doing this purely for the money, or if they at least partly believe they are doing the right thing.

You said this:

Quote from: "Reginus"Jk, anyway, I'm a believer in the power-under approach, as opposed to the power-over approach. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is provide a home and therapy for the victims, and poverty-lifting education for those in the area. Demonifying the pastors and trying to put them in prison, etc. will not solve the problem, but will only further brew hatred.

You've been getting away with this for a long time. I'm going to press you. Defend your statements. Do it now or fuck off.

Unnecessarily aggressive?

Quote from: "SSY"Unnecessarily aggressive?

No. Reginus must defend his idea that all we need to do is provide a home, therapy and education for the victims of torture.

He said that his view is X, The provided a reference to the material he read, which lead him to think that way, seems at least somewhat reasonable to me, certainly not in need of swearing. Reginus is one of the more reasonable theists we have had here, I think it would be interesting to hold onto him.

Also, to be a pedant, he did not say it was all that was needed, only that, in his opinion it was the best approach. Delving further, I believe he was advocating that it was not the victims of torture who needed education etc, but by educating the entire populace, one could lower the instances of exorcisms and the like, from what I read there was no implication that helping people in this manner after they have been tortured would solve the problem. My perception of the situation is you have gotten the wrong end of the stick a bit.

I realise I am in danger of speaking for him now, so will leave him to defend himself in the thread, should he see fit.

As for my views on the subject, terrible if you ask me, I think the pastors should be prosecuted to the full extent of murder/torture laws as they exist in Nigeria, no special treatment for the religious motivation.

Well I'm not reading Reginas' post that way. What I will say in retrospect is that the "fuck you" was unnecessary. This hit a sore spot for me. I apologize Reginas. And I agree that Reginas is a reasonable theist and I would like for him to remain on the forum. But I still want my post actually answered.

I just read an article about this stuff. To think that religious beliefs can persuade people to do such horrific things, especially to children, makes me sick.
Why is it that children always suffer the most?

Children suffer the most because they cannot defend themselves.  And why would the people hurting them care?  They get as many free passes as they want because Jesus loves them.

People need to really look, I mean really look at what is in their "Holy" book.  It's full of inhumane and ignorant concepts.  If they give it to uneducated people and impress upon them the idea that it is the word of God and must be followed they are going to follow it - and the results will be such things as this.

I wish I would find a lamp, a magical one, with a Genie inside, infact I want it to be the genie from the disney movie Aladdin, there is nothing like a singing, all powerful, immortal, cosmic being that turns out to be Robin Williams. I'd ask for a wish, I would wish to be an all powerful genie, then I would wish for my freedom and his. Then I would use my cosmic power to just wipe religion off the face of the planet and then I'd go all around the world uprooting the idiots who run these countries and allow this sort of thing to happen and then i'd update the entire world's infrastructure to the 21st century then I would create a golden bible  and it would pretty much tell people not to believe in invisible men who never show themselves but are all powerful and created the universe just because they told you so and then I would put P.S, i'm just an ordinary guy  who by some freak accident got cosmic powers and that i'm no better than any other person.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"People need to really look, I mean really look at what is in their "Holy" book.  It's full of inhumane and ignorant concepts.  If they give it to uneducated people and impress upon them the idea that it is the word of God and must be followed they are going to follow it - and the results will be such things as this.

The problem is that children are taught from an early age that the actions of the biblical characters (god included) are all good unless otherwise noted and it isn't to be questioned.  My friend Marcus is this way.  I got him to admit in the story of 2Kings 2 when God sent a bear down to kill 40 kids was a good thing and that it was just.  Thats how embedded and rooted that system of thought is.  They put their faith and their belief on a pedestal that cannot be touched and warp evidence to the contrary in a way so that it aligns with their preconceived beliefs.

Quote from: "AlP"You said this:

Quote from: "Reginus"Jk, anyway, I'm a believer in the power-under approach, as opposed to the power-over approach. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is provide a home and therapy for the victims, and poverty-lifting education for those in the area. Demonifying the pastors and trying to put them in prison, etc. will not solve the problem, but will only further brew hatred.

You've been getting away with this for a long time. I'm going to press you. Defend your statements. Do it now or fuck off.

Thank you SSY, you explained (that part of) my opinion a lot better than even I could have.

First, LoneM specifically asked what people on this forum (not Nigerian judges, etc) can do. I think it would be very possible to set up some sort of charity that would help the victims, which in my opinion would be more far more effective of a solution than running protests, or something of that sort. Just look at how poorly the anti-Iraq War protests worked.

Secondly, it is of my opinion that every person, including these pastors has unsurpassable worth. I think that things tend to play out much better if you are in this mind-set instead of the "justice" mindset. So, in application to this scenario, I think the best thing that the Nigerian authorities could do would to detain the offending pastors, tell them that if they hurt another child they will be put in jail (not as a revenge punishment, but as a precaution to protect the children). Even more importantly, these pastors need a friend or two to talk things out with, who hopefully can lead them away from the exorcism mindset. In my opinion, the best thing to do would be to stay in the mindset of love for every person, thinking "how can we demonstrate that both the children and the pastors have unsurpassable worth?" and not fall into the dangerous mind set of justice. Just look at what this has done to Jews and Palestinians. Both sides think "it's only fair that we get the land; only just that the other side is punished for their crimes". On the other hand, let's look to the African American Civil Rights movement. The AAs had every reason to be angry, and yet somehow they managed to show unconditional love to the white people. If I remember correctly, MLK once said that no man who would not march in an attempt to free the whites of their hatred of blacks, should not march at all.

The just and fair thing to do would be to execute these pastors for their crimes. I think the better thing to do would be to go above and beyond this.

BTW AIP, thank you for your patience. Sorry I couldn't respond earlier, but I had a lot of homework over the weekend.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"I wish I would find a lamp, a magical one, with a Genie inside, infact I want it to be the genie from the disney movie Aladdin, there is nothing like a singing, all powerful, immortal, cosmic being that turns out to be Robin Williams. I'd ask for a wish, I would wish to be an all powerful genie, then I would wish for my freedom and his. Then I would use my cosmic power to just wipe religion off the face of the planet and then I'd go all around the world uprooting the idiots who run these countries and allow this sort of thing to happen and then i'd update the entire world's infrastructure to the 21st century then I would create a golden bible  and it would pretty much tell people not to believe in invisible men who never show themselves but are all powerful and created the universe just because they told you so and then I would put P.S, i'm just an ordinary guy  who by some freak accident got cosmic powers and that i'm no better than any other person.

Fuck, you just spoiled this seasons family guy.

Quote from: "Ninteen45"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"I wish I would find a lamp, a magical one, with a Genie inside, infact I want it to be the genie from the disney movie Aladdin, there is nothing like a singing, all powerful, immortal, cosmic being that turns out to be Robin Williams. I'd ask for a wish, I would wish to be an all powerful genie, then I would wish for my freedom and his. Then I would use my cosmic power to just wipe religion off the face of the planet and then I'd go all around the world uprooting the idiots who run these countries and allow this sort of thing to happen and then i'd update the entire world's infrastructure to the 21st century then I would create a golden bible  and it would pretty much tell people not to believe in invisible men who never show themselves but are all powerful and created the universe just because they told you so and then I would put P.S, i'm just an ordinary guy  who by some freak accident got cosmic powers and that i'm no better than any other person.

Fuck, you just spoiled this seasons family guy.

! Aww, damn it! I sure did didn't I?  

You know, even though Family Guy has some incredibly stupid humor it's very subtle but there is a deep intellectual feel to it as well if you analyze the episodes. Seth Macfarlane is pretty good at what he does although his shows are somewhat hit and miss like American Dad although I have to admit American Dad has become more like a bottle of wine as it has gotten better as time has passed.

...

Sir, Are you drunk?

All Family guy, Simpsons and South park (More blatently) does is makes a bunch of jokes while having the moral or question of the episode (Usually the plot)

Just like the kid's shows.

You know this is my first post and I don't know any of you people..

But I have to just say I'm very disappointed in you guys...

In only 2 pages you guys go right off topic talking about fricking Simpsons and Family Guy..

What the hell is wrong with you people?

This is what is wrong... Complacency and Indifference...  oh and thinking this discussion has room for jokes...

I just want to know how much money is it going to cost to find the guy that melted that 9 year olds eyes... he should suffer that fate.

I want Nigeria not to have 2 churches for every school... I want to know why the hell Sarah Palin is being blessed publically by someone who made his name calling other people Witches...

I just want some justice...  and I want an actual comprehensive idea about what can be done about it...

Anything less than the Nigerian government dismantling these child killing churches, even if they are indirectly responsible...


Sorry if I offended... I don't really care, I just want the concept of what was done to become extinct...

We sure as hell know the christians aren't going to take responsibility for creating a church and then abandoning it so that
their "disciples" can interpret bullcrap stories as they wish...  Such as ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live")....

In this case blaming the Devil is just a form of denial and subverting responsibility...


http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/ (http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/)
10:20:28 PM Pedram: There she is my friends, ex-Governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin at the 7:00 mark receiving a blessing, to keep her safe from WITCHES, from a man who made his name by chasing them in Africa. In the 21st century THIS was still considered acceptable by millions of American voters.





PS. If it's the difference between nuking that entire area and children being tortured and left to die a slow death,
just put me down for former... those people do not deserve to occupy our planet... they are simply human cancer.

Also for the women, they cut off their clitoris with a razor blade... This is another ploy to make money from pain and superstition.

Quote from: "zenstyle"But I have to just say I'm very disappointed in you guys...

PS. If it's the difference between nuking that entire area and children being tortured and left to die a slow death,
just put me down for former... those people do not deserve to occupy our planet... they are simply human cancer.

Well, then I think we have mutual feelings towards each other.  Anyone who would think nuking an entire area of people is a good idea and then says what I highlighted in bold cannot claim to be taking the moral high road.


Everyone else, please stay on topic...I can't even figure out how family guy relates to this.

Of course I'm not serious about a nuke, irradiating any part of our planet on purpose is just as stupid as what's going on. I simply mentioned it because it was already brought up as a suggestion, but don't kid yourself you'd rather have your whole village napalmed then have half the kids
eyes melted out by acid and then left to die spitting up blood on a blanket for a month... Personally I'd want to be put out of my misery...

Provided nothing can be done to end the suffering... It actually is more humane to put those kids down by lethal injection...

If you can't see that then you have some idealistic religious views clouding your "Atheism", allowing people to suffer endlessly, is not Atheist.

If nothing can be done, no one can be fed, no child can be saved, no witch hunting churches shut down...

The two are not mutually exclusive, you put down an animal when there's nothing you can do for them...

What else is there? We help "free" them like we helped "free" Iraq?... First day the whole country was bombed killing over 150,000 people.

Anyway my point was in my message... Not in my P.S... I was spinning someone elses words, and apparently they were spun back on me..

Quote from: "zenstyle"If you can't see that then you have some idealistic religious views clouding your "Atheism", allowing people to suffer endlessly, is not Atheist.

I never said anything about wanting people to suffer; I just don't think non action or total destruction are the only options.

Also, you don't seem to know what an atheist is...it's just someone who doesn't believe in a god.  Someone could have horrible morals and still be an atheist (just as they could have horrible morals and still be a theist).

You got me there, is there a word for a non douche bag atheist against human and animal suffering?

Quote from: "zenstyle"You got me there, is there a word for a non douche bag atheist against human and animal suffering? ;)

Yes, and the same word would apply to theists....Humanist; well, I guess Eco-Humanist (or two words, Humanist and Environmentalist) if you include animals.

You are being very nice Whitney.  From my view zenstyle looks like s/he might be a troll.

I have an idea (and yes i'm making a joke here ... well half of one) we can send all the Young Earth Creationists / Fundamentalist Christians / Evangelical Christians and tell them this is what happens when religion runs everything.  This is America's future if we don't deal with the serious problem of religion.  These incidents aren't just occurring in another country they are happening here in America.  A few months ago I heard of a story where two parents killed their infant child by beating it in the head with a hammer because they thought it was possessed by demons.

This article and these incidents aren't on the fringe of our society.  This is what happens when groups Fundamentalists/Evangelical Christians will get their way and go unchecked.  These groups are looking to retard education, and when you stick overwhelming superstition with the uneducated you get this crap.  We are getting to look into the future of our society if religion and superstition aren't killed off.  

Although i'm not sure what to do I am with Whitney that there are more options then Nuking them and sitting back and watching.  We need to look at the cause of this crap ... where does this shit originate from ... oh an American Church ... well thats fucking great.  Honestly, as bad as this sounds, we should work on cleaning house before we worry about other countries.  I know that sounds very republican of me, but we cant fix their problems until we fix ours (especially when their problems come from us).

Quote from: "zenstyle"You got me there, is there a word for a non douche bag atheist against human and animal suffering?

Antidouchewholovespeopleandanimalsequallyandhasnogodbeliefer?

;) I googled for information about a specific case and then was reading some good information and then it turned into nukes, simpsons and family guy. I took offense to that, my bad. My beef is not with the kids it's with their parents. But in this case you do anything to the parents and the kids will die anyway...  I don't know if the hammer story is as bad, but it's also rather disgusting. That baby new nothing, At 9 years old the world looks almost comprehensible. There's a high level of awareness of what is going on and what is happening to them.

Yet they are defenseless..  they are subject to the whims of jackals...

If there is another site/place where people are doing something more about it there, I'll gladly take my shit and go..  just point the way..

I'm not here to talk about it, I wanna do something... But I work 90 hours a week, how do people like us make a difference?

Do we use our money? Where do we send it? One of those churches? Bah..  This really isn't a discussion about tv shows or MWA's...

If it is you don't have to worry about me sticking around...

Quote from: "zenstyle"I'm not here to talk about it, I wanna do something... But I work 90 hours a week, how do people like us make a difference?

HAF isn't set up as a nonprofit and therefore can't take in money for causes.  There might be some secular organization that is doing something for this particular issue but I am not aware of it.  I agree with LoneMateria in that I'd prefer to clean up at home before we start trying to take care of problems elsewhere.  I do volunteer locally with groups that help to spread reason, freethought etc and don't have the time to work on problems elsewhere in the world even if I thought they took priority over local concerns.

I think the serious discussion part of this dwindled away quickly simply because there isn't much that can be done about it and that many of us are already otherwise involved with other activities.

That is the very definition of indifference...
 - absence of compulsion to or toward one thing or another...

Please delete my account....

Quote from: "zenstyle"That is the very definition of indifference...
 - absence of compulsion to or toward one thing or another...

Please delete my account....

I don't delete accounts....sorry.

ok I limited my account, hopefully, someone will have some free time for the kids there..
I think a troubled youth in a dysfunctional home is still paradise compared to what's happening to those nigerians...
So I believe no, domestic is lower priority... Because that just happened, and now it's about to be forgotten...

Look, it's important to realize that you can't help anyone else but yourself. You can give someone money, you can give someone a home, you can even help educate them. All those things can be done through the political process.

But as much as you can do for someone materially, you can't solve anyone's problems. Would you propose the U.S. Swoop in, enfoce civil law, take over all responsibilities of keeping the children safe, etc,etc? The United States is not a national babysitting service. And even if it tried to be, it would be a disaster. This is what the U.S. tried to be in the middle east. It tried to be the world's policewoman, and the result was disastrous. Not only is the U.S. Worn out, overextended, and crumbling under the weight of it's own beauracracy, but the world hasn't thanked the U.S. for it's attempts. The contrary, more people hate america than ever before.

And it boils down to this: No matter how much you want to help someone, how much you want someone to better themselves, you can't do it for them. Only they can. You can babysit them, sure. You can hand everything they need on a silver platter, but then you yourself would grow resentful and overburdened, and they still wouldn't take any new opportunities. They would simply take what was given to them and demand more. And if you stopped giving it to them, stopped providing for their welfare, they would simply lapse back into their old ways, never really having been eradicated.

You can't help others. They can only help themselves. And that will only happen when they want to.

Quote from: "zenstyle"ok I limited my account

I don't know what that means but ok.

Quote, hopefully, someone will have some free time for the kids there..

there?

QuoteI think a troubled youth in a dysfunctional home is still paradise compared to what's happening to those nigerians...

Yes, but that still doesn't mean we should go around trying to force our ideals on other people and fix their problems; esp before we have worked out major issues of our own.

QuoteSo I believe no, domestic is lower priority...

This is the kind of mindset that makes the USA stick their nose in everyone else's business even when it is not wanted.

QuoteBecause that just happened, and now it's about to be forgotten...

I don't know what that means but ok.

I've never seen anyone lose the context of a discussion so fast... but no I don't see it as meddling...

Creating a church and then leaving it to its own devices to be interpreted savagely and used for evil against children...

That is the highest form of meddling... That is not "missionary" work...
and it needs to be reversed and in no way should we go messing with other cultures in the first God damn place....

This is what caused the bible to be left to interpretation by savage and poverty stricken psychopaths..

QuoteI've never seen anyone lose the context of a discussion so fast

If you want to act like an ass you'll be saying you've never seen anyone get banned so fast.  It's not my fault that you don't write in complete sentences.

Quote from: "zenstyle"d in no way should we go messing with other cultures in the first God damn place....

So,now you don't want to do anything to change what is going on there? It would require messing with other cultures.

Quote from: "zenstyle"Creating a church and then leaving it to its own devices to be interpreted savagely and used for evil against children...

Again this problem stems from us.  We need to clean house and fix these problems in our society before, "meddling" in other societies.  The main problem here is the ignorance of the Christians who do this.  They think Jesus makes them better people so giving Jesus to poor countries is going to make them better.  Jesus hasn't made Christians better people science has and they won't accept it.  That is why Nigeria is such a disaster.

Like Whitney said what can we do ... "meddle" some more?  Last time Americans started meddling over there it didn't work out so well.  I have no doubt that the church that went over there had good intentions and they were not expecting this type of child abuse.  What makes you think going over there with good intentions and changing their system will have a positive effect?  In order for things to change higher education needs to be brought into play which will take some time.  Kids need to be encouraged to be educated (something the uneducated tend not to value).  And there is no guarantee it will fix anything.

We can't fix everyones problems they need to fix it themselves.  We need to fix our own problems first or they will spread.  Our religious problem is spreading to other countries and look what happens.  I feel bad for those kids and what is happening to them however there seems to be little we can do right now.

Trust me I believe in that whole heartedly, my biggest beef isn't that we don't go down there or that Christians did..

It's simply two things...
  Just like Star Trek has a Prime Directive avoiding contaminating other cultures with alien ideals..  We should too, This is why..

  Over there Churches outnumber Schools 2 to 1, that should be the other way around, I agree with you that is the underlying root cause..

Science improved America, agreed... Will it help them? Couldn't it also enable them to a achieve new level of violence?

Science breeds Technology, and almost every technology has been stretched to serve as an instrument of war at some point...

People don't stop to think that maybe the same GPS satellite navigating their cars used to navigate cruise missiles to depopulate areas...

Also keep in mind that the Prime Directive (yes I know it doesn't exist) does not negate aid... If someone is in need of aid you can help without ruining their culture... at least that's what I believe...  as long as they request or accept it such aid...

Most of those kids are being tortured and killed because their parents simply cannot feed them... Giving them food is not "meddling"..

Erecting a diseased religious temple is...

Quote from: "zenstyle"Most of those kids are being tortured and killed because their parents simply cannot feed them... Giving them food is not "meddling"..

Erecting a diseased religious temple is...

Like Renegnicat pointed out tihs is a lose lose situation.  If we don't give them food then we are monsters for not helping.  If we do give them food (no matter how much) it isn't enough and we are monsters for starving them.  I'm going to point out from that StarTrek directive that you can't have it both ways.  You helping someone is as much interfering as giving them guns.  You can't have the directive both ways.  You can't say don't interfere with something you don't like but wholeheartedly interfere when its something you like.  You can't predict the results of your tampering.

The Christians gesture to spread the love of Jesus ends with acid being poured down the throats of children quite literally.  You cannot predict the outcome of your influence so don't put yourself in any position to influence.

What the HELL is this, Ignore Renegnicat day?  

I can't believe I'm arguing this but, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive)

Aid is always given when necessary, unless it violates the prime directive, in this case, like arming an opposing side of a faction...

For example, in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Redemption," when the Klingon Empire experienced a brief civil war, and Captain Picard refused Chancellor Gowron's request of aid, even though he was the legitimate ruler of the Empire, and even though the Romulans were suspected of supplying weapons to the opposing side, as a planetary civil war was deemed an internal conflict.

Feeding the hungry has it's own philosophies I'm sure, such as teach a man to fish...

Beyond that I don't agree with this statement below, Indifference is just as much of a violation as renegade vigilantism..

I just think they should get NON RELIGIOUS AID, is that so much to ask?

> You cannot predict the outcome of your influence so don't put yourself in any position to influence.

Quote from: "Renegnicat"What the HELL is this, Ignore Renegnicat day?  

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Like Renegnicat pointed out tihs is a lose lose situation.

Quote from: "Renegnicat"What the HELL is this, Ignore Renegnicat day?  

Hmm, do you think it's possible to help someone help themselves?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Renegnicat"What the HELL is this, Ignore Renegnicat day?  :eek2:

My bad.  

Exactly, that's what I was getting at when I mentioned "Teach a man to fish..."

In their case it would probably be farming, like starting a farm with utility donations such as seed & fertilizer,
and if they get it going, maybe donate a cow or something...

With the stipulation that it doesn't get sacrificed in the name of some invisible deity of course..

It's kinda like giving a drunk bum a sandwich, rather than a $20, since he will most likely just buy more alcohol...

This is called using your head... we're all capable of it...

Quote from: "Renegnicat"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Renegnicat"What the HELL is this, Ignore Renegnicat day?  :eek2:

My bad.  

:edit:

In response to reginus: Of course that's possible. But your help has to be asked for, you have to give it, and it has to be accepted. Usually this isn't in the form of material assistance, such as buying food or washing clothes. More like giving constructive criticism or a well needed kick in the ass, or even being a reference for the person.

Either way, you're not helping them. You're helping them help themselves. But even that can not be done if they don't want it. So it's ultimately still up to them, as you can't help someone help themselves if they don't want it. Capeesh?

Quote from: "Renegnicat"In response to reginus: Of course that's possible. But your help has to be asked for, you have to give it, and it has to be accepted. Usually this isn't in the form of material assistance, such as buying food or washing clothes. More like giving constructive criticism or a well needed kick in the ass, or even being a reference for the person.

From my experience, more people would choose free food over a "well needed kick in the ass"

Another idea: Let's say Julie and her husband have 4 kids, and they live in Kenya. So they're poor and they have the older kids work instead of going to school (otherwise the family would starve.) If you give them food or money, you can allow their kids to get a much better education through school, and then it just snowballs from there. In a way, its like giving a man some fish so that he can afford to buy a fishing pole with his wages.

Quote from: "zenstyle"I can't believe I'm arguing this but, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive)

Lets not argue like freaking nerds, though reading that seems to agree with what I've said.

Quote from: "zenstyle"I just think they should get NON RELIGIOUS AID, is that so much to ask?

> You cannot predict the outcome of your influence so don't put yourself in any position to influence.

Say you give them food, then what?  They will become dependent on our food because they cannot produce enough of their own.  Then we are stuck giving them food until several things happen.  They stop humping (not anytime soon), they become self-sufficient (wont happen anytime soon), and they say they don't need any more (greedy asses won't say that any time soon).  As soon as we stop suppling them they will fall back into a poverty ridden state if they even manage to pull out of it.  Making another nation dependent on you for food is not a good idea.

Quote from: "zenstyle"In their case it would probably be farming, like starting a farm with utility donations such as seed & fertilizer,
and if they get it going, maybe donate a cow or something...

And then what?  It takes a while to grow food.  I'm sure they have farmers but even if they don't how are they supposed to mass produce everything?  Oh we need to send them farm equipment too, teach them how to use it, repair it, and make more.  Oh and then they need gas for them, well i guess we ought to send them gas too.  I'm not trying to be a dick here I understand you want to help zen but its not as simple as this.  Also giving them these things has no guarantees of stopping this child abuse from going on.  The exorcists make a lot of money doing this and I doubt they will give up so easily.

Quote from: "zenstyle"It's kinda like giving a drunk bum a sandwich, rather than a $20, since he will most likely just buy more alcohol...

I've seen bums throw away sandwiches given to them.  They will find a way to get the booze.  You might as well give it to them their life isn't that great anyway.  Booze are an escape.  

I know i'm sounding pessimistic not at all like a happy atheist but i am trying to look at this realistically.  I posted this because it pissed me off.  Their situation is terrible but trying to throw a bandaid on an amputated leg isn't going to do anything.  This aid that you want us to give them isn't going to solve the problem because it doesn't address where the problem came from.  We need to stop what has happened in Nigeria from happening to other countries and thats why i've been advocating cleaning house.  Missionaries are leaving America to spread the word of Jesus to the "savages".  And spreading myth, superstition, and dangerous ideas to poor and desperate people in the process.  Without these people and without these problems we can focus on providing for our race, achieving new heights with science and mend a world broken by religion and hatred (they are not mutually exclusive either).

Quote from: "Reginus"

Quote from: "Renegnicat"In response to reginus: Of course that's possible. But your help has to be asked for, you have to give it, and it has to be accepted. Usually this isn't in the form of material assistance, such as buying food or washing clothes. More like giving constructive criticism or a well needed kick in the ass, or even being a reference for the person.

From my experience, more people would choose free food over a "well needed kick in the ass"

Another idea: Let's say Julie and her husband have 4 kids, and they live in Kenya. So they're poor and they have the older kids work instead of going to school (otherwise the family would starve.) If you give them food or money, you can allow their kids to get a much better education through school, and then it just snowballs from there. In a way, its like giving a man some fish so that he can afford to buy a fishing pole with his wages.

You give them money, they won't buy food. You give them food, they'll eat, but they won't go to school. After all, why better themselves when they've got their very own sugar daddy?

Quote from: "Renegnicat"You give them money, they won't buy food. You give them food, they'll eat, but they won't go to school. After all, why better themselves when they've got their very own sugar daddy?

Really?? I mean, you've tested this before?  

The uneducated don't value education, Reginus. It'll remain less than 100% positive until it's tested, but I'll tell you what: Since you're the moral christian given a mandate to help other by god, go give a homeless bum a check to pay tuition and books at your local community college. What do you think he's going to do with it?

Quote from: "Renegnicat"The uneducated don't value education, Reginus. It'll remain less than 100% positive until it's tested, but I'll tell you what: Since you're the moral christian given a mandate to help other by god, go give a homeless bum a check to pay tuition and books at your local community college. What do you think he's going to do with it?

The reason I'm skeptical is because I've watched a documentary and read a book or two relating to humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, and I can tell you that the vast majority of children are overly enthusiastic about getting schools. Most of the adults really do view education as the key to getting out of poverty. Comparing these people to the homeless in the U.S. is pretty unfair in my opinion.

Quote from: "Reginus"The reason I'm skeptical is because I've watched a documentary and read a book or two relating to humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, and I can tell you that the vast majority of children are overly enthusiastic about getting schools. Most of the adults really do view education as the key to getting out of poverty. Comparing these people to the homeless in the U.S. is pretty unfair in my opinion.

I agree with you completely. My wife and I, for example, sponsor five Foster Parents Plan children in "underdeveloped" poor countries. These children love to go to school to get an education. In general the problem in those countries is, that the parents take their children off the schools at a very early age, to make them work on the fields. Especially girls have also a very hard time to get an education, because women in their society are treated as second rate citizens. What I like about Foster Parents Plan (and similar organizations, like the "Deutsche Humanitäre Hilfe") is that they not only sponsor the child, but also the family and community. Should the parents take their children off the school, than they'll loose the sponsorship. Such small scale "projects" seem to work extremely well.