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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10 ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/09/nobel.peace.prize/index.html)

This is total bullshit. Obama is given the highest award the world offers in terms of peace and he has yet to do anything remotely peaceful. Aren't we supposed to have more troops in Afghanistan and didn't he keep the idea of outsourcing our "interrogations" of terror suspects to other countries? What about all the attacks on Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan? Or how about the increase of fighters in the Somalian waters?

I'm not saying those things are not necessary but that is not what a person earning the peace prize would be doing. This is just more pandering to Obama on the world stage. I'm glad Chicago lost the Olympic bid.

Sorry for the rant but this shit pisses me off!

Hahaha!

half those meetings were PR stunts!

It's important not to Blame Obama for this.  he didn't ask for it.  The Nobel prizes aren't really worth jack for credibility.  but it's not the recipient's fault of that.

I think this is mainly a problem with perspective. Compared to Bush, President Obama is deserving of a Nobel, but not compared to those seeking to bring peace in the world.

President Obama should respectfully decline. Then he should pull all of our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, investigate the previous administration for war crimes (among other things), push for single-payer instead of a public option, and maybe stop eavesdropping and kidnapping. Then he can have it.

Quote from: "Will"I think this is mainly a problem with perspective. Compared to Bush, President Obama is deserving of a Nobel, but not compared to those seeking to bring peace in the world.

President Obama should respectfully decline. Then he should pull all of our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, investigate the previous administration for war crimes (among other things), push for single-payer instead of a public option, and maybe stop eavesdropping and kidnapping. Then he can have it.

Yeah but he won't. Obama sold snake-oil in the form of "Change and Hope" and like the typical politician fails to deliver. It's like a porno without a money shot. It just makes you angry. And possibly more misogynistic....

I'm not blaming him for being awarded it. I'm blaming him for trying to act as if it's everyone's prize as well as his. That is not how awards works. If he doesn't reject it, his critics have even more ammo. He already seems like a narcissist, this helps enforce that view.

Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

When I heard the story on the news, I thought WTF. Here you have a guy, who's keeps fueling the war in Afghanistan with more troops;  who's Middle East peace plans is in shambles; who didn't close Guantanamo Bay, like he promised; etc. etc. getting the Nobel Peace Prize?  Couldn't they really find a better candidate? Even Bono would do. I don't like that guy either, but at least he is doing something in the name of peace. To be honest, ever since the three terrorist leaders Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres and  Yitzak Rabin got their Nobel Peace Prize in 1994, I realized that the Nobel Price Committee got a screw loose.

Quote from: "Tom62"When I heard the story on the news, I thought WTF.

Me, too.  

I only care about the Medicine, Physics and Chemistry awards.

I'm baffled... yes, it's not his fault he received it.  And he IS donating the $1.4 mil to charity.  But he should be honest and turn it down.  A simple "thanks, but I really haven't earned this yet" would have gone a long way toward improving his credibility, for me anyway.

I am feeling very let down by this president.  Yes, it's still the first year, but when?  When will he live up to even one promise he made?  Gay marriage?  Gays in the military?  Ending the war(s)?  Gitmo closed?  Anyone?  He's made a few token stabs at making things better while bypassing all of the BIG things he promised.

I'm having to deal with BS emails my mom sends me, knocking Obama down all the time, and I have nothing to respond with any more.  He is narcissistic.  He does seem power hungry.  

If not him, who?  If not now, when?

Quote from: "Will"Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

Carter was a failure president. We need a warrior-poet for president. A man who knows the horror of wars enough to know when to use military action but also a man who is intelligent enough to know how to use diplomacy. Obama is neither. He's a sheltered bubble-child who grew up being brain-washed by people around him that he is the answer to humanity's problems. I say we need a president who says, "Fuck this, fuck you world. Fend for yourself, we got our own problems here. You fix your own shit or kindly shut the fuck up/kiss our asses."

Anyone who wants to talk shit/interfere with us gets a week-long shelling courtesy of our well-funded (but sadly fucked with by congress) military.

I propose a Klingon/Romulan hybrid society.

I'll tell you what, if we're still in Afghanistan and don't have gay marriage in 10 years, I'll run.

Vote Will: for a strong separation of church in state, against tax exemption for religious organizations, no wars of aggression ever, single-payer health coverage, no eavesdropping, no lobbying, massive campaign finance reform, no corporate personhood, no Fed... oh god, he's been shot!

I'd vote for you but as an atheist you won't get elected unless some serious work is done in the next 10 years.  ^_^ Get to it

Quote from: "Will"I'll tell you what, if we're still in Afghanistan and don't have gay marriage in 10 years, I'll run.

Vote Will: for a strong separation of church in state, against tax exemption for religious organizations, no wars of aggression ever, single-payer health coverage, no eavesdropping, no lobbying, massive campaign finance reform, no corporate personhood, no Fed... oh god, he's been shot!

Why should gays be allowed to marry? Just because you like to have relations with the same sex does not make you special. Who's the guy who's going to ban the bullshit of marriage altogether?!? Fucking cowards!!!

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Will"Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

Carter was a failure president. We need a warrior-poet for president. A man who knows the horror of wars enough to know when to use military action but also a man who is intelligent enough to know how to use diplomacy. Obama is neither. He's a sheltered bubble-child who grew up being brain-washed by people around him that he is the answer to humanity's problems. I say we need a president who says, "Fuck this, fuck you world. Fend for yourself, we got our own problems here. You fix your own shit or kindly shut the fuck up/kiss our asses."

Anyone who wants to talk shit/interfere with us gets a week-long shelling courtesy of our well-funded (but sadly fucked with by congress) military.

I propose a Klingon/Romulan hybrid society.

Are you being funny or are you fucking insane?  

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Will"Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

Carter was a failure president. We need a warrior-poet for president. A man who knows the horror of wars enough to know when to use military action but also a man who is intelligent enough to know how to use diplomacy. Obama is neither. He's a sheltered bubble-child who grew up being brain-washed by people around him that he is the answer to humanity's problems. I say we need a president who says, "Fuck this, fuck you world. Fend for yourself, we got our own problems here. You fix your own shit or kindly shut the fuck up/kiss our asses."

Anyone who wants to talk shit/interfere with us gets a week-long shelling courtesy of our well-funded (but sadly fucked with by congress) military.

I propose a Klingon/Romulan hybrid society.

Are you being funny or are you fucking insane?  

Maybe it takes an insane mind to fight an insane world.....

If it's impossible for an atheist to be elected in 10 years, I'll just lie. I spent about 10 years of my life pretending to be Christian, a few extra years would be child's play. On inauguration day, I'll surprise everyone by taking the oath on a copy of the Constitution instead of some religious mythology. Since the crappy presidents have demonstrated you can't be held responsible for lying about campaign promises, I won't get too bent out of shape about it. Then I let my policies and results speak for themselves.

Then again, I'm not a multi-multi-millionaire, so it'd be tough to get nominated.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Why should gays be allowed to marry? Just because you like to have relations with the same sex does not make you special. Who's the guy who's going to ban the bullshit of marriage altogether?!? Fucking cowards!!!

It's about equal rights, not about whether or not the institution of marriage is legitimate or necessary. As long as marriage, and all of the social and legal mechanisms that come with it, exists, anyone in a consensual relationship should be able to marry. It's that simple.

Hey, we need to protect people from themselves. Marriage is a drug. Drugs are bad, mmmkay?

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey, we need to protect people from themselves. Marriage is a drug. Drugs are bad, mmmkay?

We don't need to protect anyone from themselves, what they do is their own choice, if people want to get married that should be their business, if they want to take drugs, that's their business, if they want to pray to some banana in the sky hoping he will heal their cancer that's their prerogative( a stupid one no less) you sound like a surly big brother, that's the last thing the world needs.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey, we need to protect people from themselves. Marriage is a drug. Drugs are bad, mmmkay?

We don't need to protect anyone from themselves, what they do is their own choice, if people want to get married that should be their business, if they want to take drugs, that's their business, if they want to pray to some banana in the sky hoping he will heal their cancer that's their prerogative( a stupid one no less) you sound like a surly big brother, that's the last thing the world needs.

No, we need to standardize the world as a narrow way of living. You get a job, you pay taxes, you do certain acceptable hobbies and when the mating season begins (every 7 years per Vulcan ritual) you mate without passion.

Disagree? You're a terrorist!!!

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey, we need to protect people from themselves. Marriage is a drug. Drugs are bad, mmmkay?

We don't need to protect anyone from themselves, what they do is their own choice, if people want to get married that should be their business, if they want to take drugs, that's their business, if they want to pray to some banana in the sky hoping he will heal their cancer that's their prerogative( a stupid one no less) you sound like a surly big brother, that's the last thing the world needs.

No, we need to standardize the world as a narrow way of living. You get a job, you pay taxes, you do certain acceptable hobbies and when the mating season begins (every 7 years per Vulcan ritual) you mate without passion.

Disagree? You're a terrorist!!!

Nah, you're just outright crazy.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Nah, you're just outright crazy.

Or maybe I am right so much it's scary. Why deal with this shit about right or left and just make it right or wrong? Why play this game when you can make your own up? Exactly.....I am king of teh internets.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Nah, you're just outright crazy.

Or maybe I am right so much it's scary. Why deal with this shit about right or left and just make it right or wrong? Why play this game when you can make your own up? Exactly.....I am king of teh internets.

Are we hearing the Chianti or the Pinot Noir?

Quote from: "Big Mac"Chianti and Pinot Noir are great to me.....I drank an entire bottle and feel buzzed. Much better than beer!

Anyways, here's the announcement with the reasons for Obama's award.
[youtube:v63e7vx6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPCyDzoLDEc[/youtube:v63e7vx6]

Quote from: "AlP"

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Nah, you're just outright crazy.

Or maybe I am right so much it's scary. Why deal with this shit about right or left and just make it right or wrong? Why play this game when you can make your own up? Exactly.....I am king of teh internets.

Are we hearing the Chianti or the Pinot Noir?

Quote from: "Big Mac"Chianti and Pinot Noir are great to me.....I drank an entire bottle and feel buzzed. Much better than beer!

Anyways, here's the announcement with the reasons for Obama's award.
[youtube:rnfi0nc0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPCyDzoLDEc[/youtube:rnfi0nc0]

Heard it before, too much bullshit. I'm too smart for this shit. I'm better off when I drink. I try too hard to be a part of this stupid game humans make up. When I drink, that dies off for a while and the angry, pissed off, and awakened me emerges. Let the liberals suck obama off. He's just a pussy who's never struggled in his life so he has no cred. He's never gone a day worrying about rent/food/medical bills like me or other poor people. The elite bourgeoisie think they know what real struggle is, they know nothing. I say the working man rise up, smash the evil system and create a better society. I say let the shiftless wealthy feel the wrath of the workers of the world.

WORKERS UNITE!!!

Ok, enough of this childish crap. [BigMac[/b], as has already been noted by Will, you've been here a long time in the forum. Long enough to know that what you're doing is not in keeping with the forum rules. Also, Ultima, simply doing the name calling thing is likewise against forum rules.

This is a first warning to both of you to stop the BS and abide by the forum rules. [/color]

Quote from: "McQ"Ok, enough of this childish crap. [BigMac[/b], as has already been noted by Will, you've been here a long time in the forum. Long enough to know that what you're doing is not in keeping with the forum rules. Also, Ultima, simply doing the name calling thing is likewise against forum rules.

This is a first warning to both of you to stop the BS and abide by the forum rules. [/color]

They see me trollin', they hatin', trying to catch me ridin' dirty!!!!

Sheesh, alright guys, I'll stop with this shit. Fuck, it was meant to be a joke!!!

Good night Big Mac. Hope the hangover isn't bad tomorrow =).

Quote from: "AlP"Good night Big Mac. Hope the hangover isn't bad tomorrow =).

I'm sober, dawg!!!!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.encyclopediadramatica.com%2Fimages%2F6%2F63%2FRollinhatin.jpg&hash=a815dc72131a152c6a48d3e61821843eb9090632)

Rachal Maddow has made a very compelling case for Obama deserving the Nobel Prize. I have to admit, she's changed my mind on the subject:
[youtube:3tjzx5er]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o[/youtube:3tjzx5er]

Quote from: "Will"Rachal Maddow has made a very compelling case for Obama deserving the Nobel Prize. I have to admit, she's changed my mind on the subject:
[youtube:3dznyd75]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o[/youtube:3dznyd75]

Why? She merely said the same stuff every die-hard Obama maniac has said. Is it a sexual attraction thing or something?

Jimmy Carter is not exactly who I'd use a measuring stick. Hell, these people failed to do anything. E for effort is not how legitimate awards work. You have to do something tangible.

I would love to talk to Obama and find out how it feels to be so arrogant and have a cult of personality.

Obama is a powerful man. He knew that before the award. But this is an international acknowledgement. How will it affect him in the future? I think, if it happened to me, being awarded a Nobel peace prize would change my actions. I would (irrationally) try to justify the award.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Why? She merely said the same stuff every die-hard Obama maniac has said. Is it a sexual attraction thing or something?

Jimmy Carter is not exactly who I'd use a measuring stick. Hell, these people failed to do anything. E for effort is not how legitimate awards work. You have to do something tangible.

I would love to talk to Obama and find out how it feels to be so arrogant and have a cult of personality.

She's gay and I generally date Asian women, so no it's not a sexual attraction thing. She's right that historically, many Nobel Prize peace winners won not for results, but because of both the intent and the attempt. President Obama hasn't done a lot yet, and he's certainly tripped up on some very, very serious things, but clearly the Nobel committee believes his intent and attempt are worthy of praise.

What I'm hoping is that this will force President Obama to finally admit that Afghanistan is a bullshit war like Iraq. Or maybe he'll kill off domestic spying for good. Or he'll stop rendition. Or he'll take a serious crack at fixing the problems in the market instead of just patchwork. Or a million other things.

As for tangible things, President Obama has already overturned Bush's insane religious policies about not using embryonic stem cells, he nominated Sotomayor instead of picking a bland moderate for the bench, he ordered the closing of Gitmo, and our European allies once again have our back. He lowered taxes for most Americans, he's established a credit card bill of rights, he's expanded loan programs to small businesses, he's created a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners, he's signed the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, he's opened up dialogues with middle eastern leaders (instead of ignoring them like a retard), he's been much better about releasing presidential records, he's funded a major expansion of AmeriCorps, he overturned Ledbetter vs. Goodyear, he's banned lobbyist gifts to executive employees, he's on track to weatherize 1,000,000 homes a year, and he extended unemployment insurance benefits.

And I'm pretty sure he bought his daughters a dog, as promised.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Why? She merely said the same stuff every die-hard Obama maniac has said. Is it a sexual attraction thing or something?

Jimmy Carter is not exactly who I'd use a measuring stick. Hell, these people failed to do anything. E for effort is not how legitimate awards work. You have to do something tangible.

I would love to talk to Obama and find out how it feels to be so arrogant and have a cult of personality.

She's gay and I generally date Asian women, so no it's not a sexual attraction thing. She's right that historically, many Nobel Prize peace winners won not for results, but because of both the intent and the attempt. President Obama hasn't done a lot yet, and he's certainly tripped up on some very, very serious things, but clearly the Nobel committee believes his intent and attempt are worthy of praise.

What I'm hoping is that this will force President Obama to finally admit that Afghanistan is a bullshit war like Iraq. Or maybe he'll kill off domestic spying for good. Or he'll stop rendition. Or he'll take a serious crack at fixing the problems in the market instead of just patchwork. Or a million other things.

As for tangible things, President Obama has already overturned Bush's insane religious policies about not using embryonic stem cells, he nominated Sotomayor instead of picking a bland moderate for the bench, he ordered the closing of Gitmo, and our European allies once again have our back. He lowered taxes for most Americans, he's established a credit card bill of rights, he's expanded loan programs to small businesses, he's created a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners, he's signed the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, he's opened up dialogues with middle eastern leaders (instead of ignoring them like a retard), he's been much better about releasing presidential records, he's funded a major expansion of AmeriCorps, he overturned Ledbetter vs. Goodyear, he's banned lobbyist gifts to executive employees, he's on track to weatherize 1,000,000 homes a year, and he extended unemployment insurance benefits.

And I'm pretty sure he bought his daughters a dog, as promised.

And....you think he deserves a Nobel Peace prize?

Quote from: "Big Mac"And....you think he deserves a Nobel Peace prize?

Now that I understand the peace prize isn't about results, sure, he can have one. Is he the most deserving? Almost certainly not, but that's not really what it's about. Whatever committee chooses the Nobel award winners feels that he's earned it, probably because President Obama is rebuilding a lot of bridges burned during the last eight to thirty years.

Anyway, when I think of the Nobel Prize, I'm usually thinking of accomplishments in the sciences. I'm thinking of Marie Curie, Francis Crick, James Watson and Albert Einstein, not President Carter or President Obama.

I just don't understand why!  
Didn't they do the same thing to Al Gore?
At this point, The Nobel Prize is waaay down on the award chain. Now all my idols must have a Tony. Move over Marie Curie, Angela Lansbury is my role model now!

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"And....you think he deserves a Nobel Peace prize?

Now that I understand the peace prize isn't about results, sure, he can have one. Is he the most deserving? Almost certainly not, but that's not really what it's about. Whatever committee chooses the Nobel award winners feels that he's earned it, probably because President Obama is rebuilding a lot of bridges burned during the last eight to thirty years.

Anyway, when I think of the Nobel Prize, I'm usually thinking of accomplishments in the sciences. I'm thinking of Marie Curie, Francis Crick, James Watson and Albert Einstein, not President Carter or President Obama.

So it's a really expensive e for effort then. Hell, I could use the money they give the recipients. Obama owes it to tax-payers like me after wasting money on a stimulus package that is myopic entirely. Make it out to the next generation as a "Sorry I put a huge amount of debt on you, I'll blame Bush later as usual..."

So you're one of these people that thinks the bailouts happened in 2009? Or maybe you think Barack Obama was president in October of 2008? The bailouts were authorized by President Bush. President Obama was inaugurated after the bailouts. He had nothing to do with them.

Quote from: "Will"So you're one of these people that thinks the bailouts happened in 2009? Or maybe you think Barack Obama was president in October of 2008? The bailouts were authorized by President Bush. President Obama was inaugurated after the bailouts. He had nothing to do with them.

Except that he pushed for nearly a trillion in stimulus money. I know the bailouts were Bush, Obama did the stimulus package nonsense.

Both are failure presidents. We're going to look back at this chapter of our country and think, "Wow, we had some dumbass presidents. Clinton, Bush, Obama.....good thing we passed that law where you had to pass a stringent voter's test. Now pass me the Tylenol Cold/Flu/Aids pill!"

I'm glad Obama's hits keep rolling. He is the Democrats answer to Dubya. Less than a year in office and he's put a hardcore leftist on the supreme court, he's got an Attorney General who wants to persecute Bush (won't happen because they're continuing Bush's policy of "interrogation" offshore) and ban guns (Holder has many many quotes), he has suggested making school days longer (nonsense, just reform how much crap is taught instead, more critical thinking assignments and less test taking skills), his healthcare reform will fail even if it passes because it's too far reaching and will cost too much, Hilary Clinton is his Sec of State, calls police stupid in a case that he isn't involved in other than knowing the guy then invites them over for beers like some kind of neighborhood issue when we have wars, recession, crime, etc. to deal with, and he's probably one of the most polarizing people in this country.

I honestly hope Obama keeps it up, he's failing miserably. First we replace Congress 2010, then him in 2012. I hope the dems enjoy the ride while they can, we're sharpening up our axes and getting our war paint on.

Stimulus and bailout are two different concepts. Bailouts are an injection of liquidity directly from the government's checkbook. For example, the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 featured the government spending $700 billion to purchase bad assets. That was direct spending into an area which economically speaking was absolutely deadly. TARP payments since then have been shitty at best. Stimulus, on the other hand, is a set of tax rebates and business incentives. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 is nominally worth about $787 billion, but this includes a great deal of tax cuts, increasing unemployment benefits, and investments in education, healthcare and infrastructure. In other words, it's not just the government buying a bunch of bad assets that should have died, it's the government investing in things which actually might turn out to be a boon in the long run.

I'm not saying I support ARRA, but it's certainly a much better investment than the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act. This isn't worshipping Obama, it's just government economics.

Quote from: "Will"Stimulus and bailout are two different concepts. Bailouts are an injection of liquidity directly from the government's checkbook. For example, the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 featured the government spending $700 billion to purchase bad assets. That was direct spending into an area which economically speaking was absolutely deadly. TARP payments since then have been shitty at best. Stimulus, on the other hand, is a set of tax rebates and business incentives. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 is nominally worth about $787 billion, but this includes a great deal of tax cuts, increasing unemployment benefits, and investments in education, healthcare and infrastructure. In other words, it's not just the government buying a bunch of bad assets that should have died, it's the government investing in things which actually might turn out to be a boon in the long run.

I'm not saying I support ARRA, but it's certainly a much better investment than the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act. This isn't worshipping Obama, it's just government economics.

^ This, the country has needed some major investment into infrastructure, education and other things for a very long time, hopefully the stimulus does indeed produce major results in the coming years. On the other hand it's silly to call the stimulus a failure before it has even began to have effect on anything. It's not supposed to yield any results till sometime in 2010 if I remember correctly, like most investments things don't just start going awesome the moment you made the investment.

Quote from: "Will"I'm not saying I support ARRA, but it's certainly a much better investment than the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act. This isn't worshipping Obama, it's just government economics.

Sorry Will, I guess I'm getting a little too caught up in the debate.  I don't mean to come off as attacking you. I don't think this ARRA is going to really be beneficial.

I am in no way a fan of the Republicans myself. I tend to align myself with them because they seem to be the least ambitious when it comes to messing with my personal life as much as the Democrats. Both are bad sides of the same coin to me.

I think our country is still on its collision course with disaster, just knocked down a few knots.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Sorry Will, I guess I'm getting a little too caught up in the debate.  I don't mean to come off as attacking you. I don't think this ARRA is going to really be beneficial.

It already has to a point.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I am in no way a fan of the Republicans myself. I tend to align myself with them because they seem to be the least ambitious when it comes to messing with my personal life as much as the Democrats. Both are bad sides of the same coin to me.

If I may, at least the Democrats are up front about being statists and in love with the federal government and welfare. The Republicans pretend to be, as I suspect you are genuinely, for small government. When their turn inevitably comes around, the deficit explodes. They cut taxes and increase spending, every time they've been in power in my lifetime. If anything, the Republicans should earn more of your scorn because they pretend to be what you actually are, then turn on you once they've got your vote.

I'm registered Green, btw. And I voted for Obama to keep McCain out of the oval office.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Sorry Will, I guess I'm getting a little too caught up in the debate.  I don't mean to come off as attacking you. I don't think this ARRA is going to really be beneficial.

It already has to a point.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I am in no way a fan of the Republicans myself. I tend to align myself with them because they seem to be the least ambitious when it comes to messing with my personal life as much as the Democrats. Both are bad sides of the same coin to me.

If I may, at least the Democrats are up front about being statists and in love with the federal government and welfare. The Republicans pretend to be, as I suspect you are genuinely, for small government. When their turn inevitably comes around, the deficit explodes. They cut taxes and increase spending, every time they've been in power in my lifetime. If anything, the Republicans should earn more of your scorn because they pretend to be what you actually are, then turn on you once they've got your vote.

I'm registered Green, btw. And I voted for Obama to keep McCain out of the oval office.

Oh and they do, but they're more useful than democrats to me. What did the Soviets call them....Useful Idiots. I have scorn for both parties but right now we have Dems in power and I'm rather unhappy about that fact. Now if we had a more even playing field where they (either side) couldn't do anything really useful to any end.

I would love to see a libertarian congress in the works.

Out of the two I'd rather have McCain in office. I always liked him and feel he tried to get the kooky vote out of desperation. I think Obama is just a celeb president and has no real substance to him. Lot of pretty speeches and no real action.

A libertarian congress would be about as useful as a vegan head of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, Mac. I know libertarianism sounds niceâ€"wouldn't it be great if the useless government would finally just butt outâ€"but nearly abolishing the federal government would mean that most red states would go down in flames. One of the jobs of the federal government in it's current incarnation is to redistribute wealth among states. States like North Dakota, Mississippi, Alaska, West Virginia, Montana, Alabama, South Dakota, and Arkansas get a great deal more from the federal government than they pay in. Blue states like Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, and my home state of California pay a lot more to the federal government than they get back. Play this out. Libertarians take the House, then the Senate. President Paul starts pushing for legislation to severely reduce the role of the federal government. States like California and New York, which are having serious budget troubles now, will suddenly find ourselves able to pay for our social programs again. Many red states, on the other hand, will have to drastically cut things like unemployment, food stamps, etc. Since a libertarian congress would undoubtedly privatize social security and would further deregulate Wall Street, many people would find themselves unable to retire and would have to work. Those in states with welfare in place would probably be okay. The red states, though, would look a lot like the US before the new deal. life expectancy would drop off, poverty among the elderly would skyrocket, putting massive stress on the rest of the economy. Keep playing this out. Eventually people would figure out what's going on. Blue states, no longer burdened by the red states, would house more small businesses and would likely be creating more wealth despite still having moderate tax rates. Eventually something would finally cause a snap and the US would shift to a socialist republic not unlike some of our European allies.

You've seen it. You can't un-see it.

Quote from: "Will"A libertarian congress would be about as useful as a vegan head of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, Mac. I know libertarianism sounds niceâ€"wouldn't it be great if the useless government would finally just butt outâ€"but nearly abolishing the federal government would mean that most red states would go down in flames. One of the jobs of the federal government in it's current incarnation is to redistribute wealth among states. States like North Dakota, Mississippi, Alaska, West Virginia, Montana, Alabama, South Dakota, and Arkansas get a great deal more from the federal government than they pay in. Blue states like Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, and my home state of California pay a lot more to the federal government than they get back. Play this out. Libertarians take the House, then the Senate. President Paul starts pushing for legislation to severely reduce the role of the federal government. States like California and New York, which are having serious budget troubles now, will suddenly find ourselves able to pay for our social programs again. Many red states, on the other hand, will have to drastically cut things like unemployment, food stamps, etc. Since a libertarian congress would undoubtedly privatize social security and would further deregulate Wall Street, many people would find themselves unable to retire and would have to work. Those in states with welfare in place would probably be okay. The red states, though, would look a lot like the US before the new deal. life expectancy would drop off, poverty among the elderly would skyrocket, putting massive stress on the rest of the economy. Keep playing this out. Eventually people would figure out what's going on. Blue states, no longer burdened by the red states, would house more small businesses and would likely be creating more wealth despite still having moderate tax rates. Eventually something would finally cause a snap and the US would shift to a socialist republic not unlike some of our European allies.

You've seen it. You can't un-see it.

Uh huh....because a statist nearly facist government really works out well. How you enjoying your tax rates, buddy? Or how about the fact if you read certain books you are suddenly a blip on their bloated radar screen. Or how about the idea that the PATRIOT act is not going away because it is an effective tool to silence critics.

To say Blue states would somehow prosper is laughable. Blue states also tend to create massive deficit to pay for their welfare programs. I'd welcome a drop in life expectancy, personally, because most people I see on the street tend to be wasting resources. Harsh? Perhaps, but I feel that nature tends to be the best leader in the matters of population control.

I think your scenario is highly unlikely. Then again, I'd also prefer a pretty anarchist way of life. I tend to also be quite self-sufficient and fiercely independent. Most people tend to be conditioned to rely on authority, I tend to want to subvert/question it.

Red/Blue, you're still screwed. It's like being eyed by two wolves who gun for various parts to kill you. One wants to go for your neck, the other your stomach. You're fucked either way.

Please refer to my thread on political theory in philosophy; It basically clears up any confusion as to why the u.s. hasn't had any real reform in the past 30-40 years, and why the executive office doesn't really hold that much power.

The office of the president really is laughable. People like you guys expect him to do a lot of stuff, but most of the things people generally associate with presidential action are actually the responsibility of the legislature. Senators and representatives... we don't live in a political system where reform is made easy. Reform is never easy in a system where change requires large amounts of votes from different people.

Read my thread: It's called New Political Theory, and it explains a lot.

So should I make it final to pack up and head off to Europe eventually? If reform is very unlikely I might as well go somewhere more to my tastes.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Uh huh....because a statist nearly facist government really works out well. How you enjoying your tax rates, buddy? Or how about the fact if you read certain books you are suddenly a blip on their bloated radar screen. Or how about the idea that the PATRIOT act is not going away because it is an effective tool to silence critics.

My tax rates aren't high enough. I don't show up on any radar screen, and the Patriot Act is an ongoing problem which was created not by statist Democrats, but anti-Statist, "useful idiot" Republicans.

Quote from: "Big Mac"To say Blue states would somehow prosper is laughable. Blue states also tend to create massive deficit to pay for their welfare programs. I'd welcome a drop in life expectancy, personally, because most people I see on the street tend to be wasting resources. Harsh? Perhaps, but I feel that nature tends to be the best leader in the matters of population control.

Only, like I said, that's not actually true. California would be fine right now if we were getting back what we put in to the federal government. Do we have overzealous Dems in the state senate? Oh god, yes. I'm actually considering running if they don't get their act together by the time I hit 30. Still, even during a time of substantial recession and burst housing bubbles in California, the state actually is generating wealth, some of which is taxed for social programs that most Californians want. I like the idea that some of what I pay will help someone down on his or her luck. Taxers, after all, are the price-tag for civilization.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I think your scenario is highly unlikely. Then again, I'd also prefer a pretty anarchist way of life. I tend to also be quite self-sufficient and fiercely independent. Most people tend to be conditioned to rely on authority, I tend to want to subvert/question it.

A lot of it was hyperbole. What can I say? I like to embellish. Still, it was meant to illustrate a few realities about the idea of a libertarian congress. You want statists running the fed just like you should want libertarians running the states. Like I was saying in the other thread, government works best when it's adversarial, when there's no trust. Government should be a place where people of different backgrounds, ideologies, and beliefs come together to make decisions for the common good.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Red/Blue, you're still screwed. It's like being eyed by two wolves who gun for various parts to kill you. One wants to go for your neck, the other your stomach. You're fucked either way.

All that tells me is that we need a few more parties to keep Coke and Pepsi on their feet.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Uh huh....because a statist nearly facist government really works out well. How you enjoying your tax rates, buddy? Or how about the fact if you read certain books you are suddenly a blip on their bloated radar screen. Or how about the idea that the PATRIOT act is not going away because it is an effective tool to silence critics.

My tax rates aren't high enough. I don't show up on any radar screen, and the Patriot Act is an ongoing problem which was created not by statist Democrats, but anti-Statist, "useful idiot" Republicans.

Quote from: "Big Mac"To say Blue states would somehow prosper is laughable. Blue states also tend to create massive deficit to pay for their welfare programs. I'd welcome a drop in life expectancy, personally, because most people I see on the street tend to be wasting resources. Harsh? Perhaps, but I feel that nature tends to be the best leader in the matters of population control.

Only, like I said, that's not actually true. California would be fine right now if we were getting back what we put in to the federal government. Do we have overzealous Dems in the state senate? Oh god, yes. I'm actually considering running if they don't get their act together by the time I hit 30. Still, even during a time of substantial recession and burst housing bubbles in California, the state actually is generating wealth, some of which is taxed for social programs that most Californians want. I like the idea that some of what I pay will help someone down on his or her luck. Taxers, after all, are the price-tag for civilization.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I think your scenario is highly unlikely. Then again, I'd also prefer a pretty anarchist way of life. I tend to also be quite self-sufficient and fiercely independent. Most people tend to be conditioned to rely on authority, I tend to want to subvert/question it.

A lot of it was hyperbole. What can I say? I like to embellish. Still, it was meant to illustrate a few realities about the idea of a libertarian congress. You want statists running the fed just like you should want libertarians running the states. Like I was saying in the other thread, government works best when it's adversarial, when there's no trust. Government should be a place where people of different backgrounds, ideologies, and beliefs come together to make decisions for the common good.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Red/Blue, you're still screwed. It's like being eyed by two wolves who gun for various parts to kill you. One wants to go for your neck, the other your stomach. You're fucked either way.

All that tells me is that we need a few more parties to keep Coke and Pepsi on their feet.

Oddly enough Will, I don't see our views as being to dramatically different. I just don't like liberals too much, then again I am not exactly wild about conservatives either. I just slightly lean their way on SOME issues.

I feel that whatever party is in power at this point we are still kind of  screwed. And the problem with a lot of red states is well....we have poor blacks. I'm not saying they're bad people (well a lot tend to be shitheads) but they tend to be a drain on the state. It goes the same for poor whites/mexicans/etc. but if we got rid of the more....lackluster producers of the states, I'd imagine the red states would be an advantage over the blue.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Will"Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

Carter was a failure president. We need a warrior-poet for president. A man who knows the horror of wars enough to know when to use military action but also a man who is intelligent enough to know how to use diplomacy. Obama is neither. He's a sheltered bubble-child who grew up being brain-washed by people around him that he is the answer to humanity's problems. I say we need a president who says, "Fuck this, fuck you world. Fend for yourself, we got our own problems here. You fix your own shit or kindly shut the fuck up/kiss our asses."

Anyone who wants to talk shit/interfere with us gets a week-long shelling courtesy of our well-funded (but sadly fucked with by congress) military.

I propose a Klingon/Romulan hybrid society.

It's that 'you're either with us or against us' mentality that got you in the shit pile you're currently sat in. It didn't work then and it won't work in the future.

How exaclty is the current administration supposed to reverse the last 8 years worth of damage in just one year? Can't people just be happy that there isn't a rabid christian fundamentalist at the helm anymore?

What happens with the power vacuum if all the troops are pulled out from Afghanistan and Iraq immediately? All the nasty people come back in droves and start slaughtering the innocent for helping the infidels. Are we really that unsympathetic? Do we really not give a shit about the ordinary people who seem to be the worst casualties of war?

Fuck that! We need more troops. We need much more troops. The Taleban and islamist extremism cannot get the same boost it did when the Russians left Afghanistan, or have you forgotten the pictures of what the taleban did as soon as they had free reign again? You really need to look at them closely. See if you can find the picture of the piles of dead children minus their right arms. Apparently god doesn't like children who've been innoculated for TB...

I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

Quote from: "Big Mac"I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

Because him being president has sent waves of optimism, euphoria and gratitude around the world because the US finally has a president with a modicum of intellect running the show. Believe me when I say the hundreds of millions of people in Europe who cheered when he won the election (count me in on that number) did so not because of his policies for tax, healthcare reform or weapons regulation but simply because he understands the value of over-seas relations.

He may not have accomplished anything from your point of view but the sigh of relief from the rest of the world this last eight months has been palpable. That in itself is enough of a chunk of progress for vast swathes of the planet wishing the Nobel peace prize upon Obama.

You only have to take a snap-shot of news segments from other countries to see how vastly different the opinion of the US is now, compared to a year ago. It is all positive. You should thank Obama for that. I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

The most powerful country in the world needs the rest of the world to keep that moniker.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "Big Mac"I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

Because him being president has sent waves of optimism, euphoria and gratitude around the world because the US finally has a president with a modicum of intellect running the show. Believe me when I say the hundreds of millions of people in Europe who cheered when he won the election (count me in on that number) did so not because of his policies for tax, healthcare reform or weapons regulation but simply because he understands the value of over-seas relations.

He may not have accomplished anything from your point of view but the sigh of relief from the rest of the world this last eight months has been palpable. That in itself is enough of a chunk of progress for vast swathes of the planet wishing the Nobel peace prize upon Obama.

You only have to take a snap-shot of news segments from other countries to see how vastly different the opinion of the US is now, compared to a year ago. It is all positive. You should thank Obama for that. I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

The most powerful country in the world needs the rest of the world to keep that moniker.

Uh huh....so because of good feelings he deserves it over say....

Sima Samar, women’s rights activist in Afghanistan: “With dogged persistence and at great personal risk, she kept her schools and clinics open in Afghanistan even during the most repressive days of the Taliban regime, whose laws prohibited the education of girls past the age of eight. When the Taliban fell, Samar returned to Kabul and accepted the post of Minister for Women’s Affairs.”

Hu Jia, a human rights activist and an outspoken critic of the Chinese government, who was sentenced last year to a three-and-a-half-year prison term for ‘inciting subversion of state power.’

Wei Jingsheng, who spent 17 years in Chinese prisons for urging reforms of China’s communist system. He now lives in the United States.

Dr. Denis Mukwege: Doctor, founder and head of Panzi Hospital in Bukavu, Democratic Republic of Congo. He has dedicated his life to helping Congolese women and girls who are victims of gang rape and brutal sexual violence.

I don't understand you idealist types. After billions of years of harsh reality you guys seem to think good feelings will solve things. Wake-up, results count, touchy feelings about how nice a black president is do not.

I can't wait for 2010 and 2012, it'll feel good voting against the Left for this stupid crap they've been pulling.

World opinion be damned, good leaders do what they have to not what everyone around them thinks they should so they can be liked. Obama is that kid in school who wanted to be friends with everyone. Too idealistic and soft to be a real leader. Bush was a moron, we need a military man to run the country. This inefficient crap would be easier to crack down on. Strong men take what they dare, soft men play politics.

As i said, I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

Quote from: "karadan"As i said, I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

What does it matter? You guys still deal with us, you know what happens if you piss us off too much, and basically you're kind of like the girl who puts out even after you treat her like shit. You guys give us no real reward for changing our ways too drastically. And frankly I couldn't give two shits and a fuck about what the world opinion is about the US. You guys hate each other just as much and this whole "We don't like you" routine gets old. We do what we want so let's get the party started. PARTY HARD!!!!

Just out of curiosity what country do you hail from? I'm curious because I imagine its military and economics are not as powerful hence it's at a lower tier to us.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

Let me help.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb158%2FNoobynoober%2Famerica-sees-world.jpg&hash=cfd0722de33a8d2613d2008b7ac160b75f4c0a1b)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftherawfeed.com%2Fpix%2Fbuzz_aldrin_on_moon.jpg&hash=c503e213cb2e23429f0ed16031bc4fa03e9cddc9)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc104%2Fgetyourpapers%2Fworldamerica.jpg&hash=28d902404e823f3066c5419f476193dd9858a603)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.undeadreport.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F11%2Fgarand.jpg&hash=72395a0ff7634bfbe868c87d3aea605f7d9e6061)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eduinreview.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F08%2Fivy-league.gif&hash=9fdefff9387715fec15b77c4d30c969df502267f)

I think with these accomplishments we are entitled to our "arrogance". When you guys actually do something like walk on the moon, invent the first semi-auto battle rifle to be fielded across your entire military when others are using bolt actions, dropping some atomic bombs on a country that won't quit, and essentially still kicking ass, then we'll be all ears about your opinion.

For now, enjoy your shiny half-black president. He won't be getting reelected in 2012 if we can muster up our forces. Then we'll have a real president who isn't an appeaser but isn't a warmonger like Bush. A strong leader is what a strong nation needs. Weak men need not apply.

Quote from: "Ninteen45"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

Let me help.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb158%2FNoobynoober%2Famerica-sees-world.jpg&hash=cfd0722de33a8d2613d2008b7ac160b75f4c0a1b)

Ha, that sounds about right to an exaggerated extent.

I don't see how taking something as brilliant as nuclear energy and turning it into a bomb that still devastates the land it was dropped upon today is accomplishment nor do I get how making guns equates to major contributions to the world, hell the first one came CLOSE to ending humanity as we know it.

Also JFK was the one who pushed for the race to the moon and from the gist i'm getting from you JFK was shiny like Obama is now.

I'm curious, who is this awesome person who is going to be president you are talking about?

Any person but Obama. Worst president ever. Hell I'd almost want Bush back in office.

And JFK at least wasn't a pansy who kissed Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. ass. He had some balls to be like, "You put installations up in Cuba, we will have a throwdown you little vodka swilling commies." Russia backed down and we won the Cold War eventually.  Obama is more like Carter in that he's weak and would never survive in war. JFK served and his ship was blown to bits. The man knew the horrors of war. Like I said, you should be required to have served in the military before you can run for president. They usually make the best leaders.

I'm not trolling, I honestly hate Obama this much. I feel that we are going to become even weaker with someone like him at the helm. Democrats are worse to me than Republicans. They have no spine in them. They wish to appease the world instead of making us even more powerful as a nation. I'm voting straight Republican in the following elections until the Democrats are out of power. At the very least too embroiled with the Republicans to do anything significant. Infighting is the blessing to Americans. It helps keep worthless money vacuums like Congress and the rest of the government from doing anything.

Oh and guns helped the Spaniards conquer the Americas, it helps people defend themselves, and it shapes the world. Personally you make it sound as if humanity is something worth keeping around. Then again I'm fairly misanthropic so I enjoy watching the reduction in population. I think people who don't see the brilliance in weapons tend to be the ones who are secretly envious of those with military might.

By the way, LBJ (a Democrat) started the Vietnam war which ended 58k+ American lives and raped the nation of Vietnam. So Obama is emulating LBJ a little with Afghanistan. Hopefully that among other things will help oust him in 2012.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Any person but Obama. Worst president ever. Hell I'd almost want Bush back in office.

And JFK at least wasn't a pansy who kissed Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. ass. He had some balls to be like, "You put installations up in Cuba, we will have a throwdown you little vodka swilling commies." Russia backed down and we won the Cold War eventually.  Obama is more like Carter in that he's weak and would never survive in war. JFK served and his ship was blown to bits. The man knew the horrors of war. Like I said, you should be required to have served in the military before you can run for president. They usually make the best leaders.

I'm not trolling, I honestly hate Obama this much. I feel that we are going to become even weaker with someone like him at the helm. Democrats are worse to me than Republicans. They have no spine in them. They wish to appease the world instead of making us even more powerful as a nation. I'm voting straight Republican in the following elections until the Democrats are out of power. At the very least too embroiled with the Republicans to do anything significant. Infighting is the blessing to Americans. It helps keep worthless money vacuums like Congress and the rest of the government from doing anything.

Oh and guns helped the Spaniards conquer the Americas, it helps people defend themselves, and it shapes the world. Personally you make it sound as if humanity is something worth keeping around. Then again I'm fairly misanthropic so I enjoy watching the reduction in population. I think people who don't see the brilliance in weapons tend to be the ones who are secretly envious of those with military might.

I know you aren't trolling, your post seems pretty serious to me. I still must respectably disagree. Obama is hardly the worst president yet considering he hasn't even been in office for a year. i think Obama clearly understands diplomacy is necessary to handle these problems. Acknowledging these people exist is hardly bending over and kissing ass. Let's look at what's going on with America, we're in a recession right now and although the consensus seems to be that we are now recovering we can still sink back right into it. We're fighting two wars which Obama seems to be in support for ironically despite this prize. Even though North Korea is no doubt a mess and a possible threat right now can we as a country afford to even go about fighting yet another war? Going gung ho and saying fuck what everyone else thinks and going rambo on North Korea and other countries that you describe will not only put us in another war we can't afford it could invoke WW3 easily, when you blatantly attack countries like that you pull other countries in. Obama seems to be playing it smart to me.

The grown up is the person who happens to be strong and knows when it's a time to talk and when it's a time to put his/her foot down. The idiot who goes around picking on everyone earns their scorn and it only takes one or two people to stand up to said bully and tear him down. America is no different. We're still the big boy on the block but China is getting tough and there are plenty of other countries out there who should America go on a crusade which it sounds like you would prefer will step up and knock us down a peg.  Your post seems to make Ninteen45's picture feel a lot more accurate.  Humanity has done some pretty screwed up things but we're improving ourselves over time but acting in the above described manner would just serve to tear us back down. Do you think Einstein was proud when his work was used to create a nuclear bomb? How much of our greatest inventions and discoveries have been lost in war? I'm sure they're countless, this is the wrong time to be pro war, especially when so much is happening with technology. I thought America was supposed to be the symbol of all that is good with the world and all of that good stuff. It isn't good to put on a badge and just try to run the world. When North Korea does get aggressive, when Russia makes it clear they're out for conquest  and China begins conquering the world in the name of China then America can put on it's cape but until then we don't really have a right to go around acting like asses at the school ground and it's a really bad idea to put our fingers back in our ears and just sing like Bush did.

Also, i'm curious, whats the point and  re-presenting that Obama is half-black? Is that supposed to make him special or something? Some kind of gimmick or something? I don't get it.

I never suggested war. I just said not to tolerate people's shit. Even Israel, a nation I feel should not exist, gets it right. None of that nonsense diplomacy. Iraq building nuclear plants? Send bombers to take out that shit (Operation Opera). I give those Zionists some credit, that takes balls. I don't like them too much but I respect their resolve to stay alive. That and they seem to produce some really gorgeous women.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be somewhat decent people diplomatically but Obama is bowing and scraping to the world. What a maggot. We need a president who is just right. Not too war hungry (Bush) but not too soft (Obama) when it comes to the world stage. He should have kept those defense sites in Poland, our good allies who needed it against unchecked ruskies.  Instead he got on his knees and kissed the Ivans' collective ass. What is Russia going to do? They can't even invade Georgia, a pretty weak country. Hell, they can't even fight us in a real fight if it came down to it. Russia fails at life, we'd pretty much ruin their shit in a fight. Now is the time to be aggressive but in a smart way. JFK apparently knew that. Obama does not.

The reason I keep mentioning his half-blackness is because I've heard nothing but morons chatter about how great it is to have a black president. These are the same people I feel should not vote. Do-nothing-good president at work. Be cautious.

From what I understand many Europeans are happy about the missile defense system out there which was shown to actually be incredibly ineffective was taken down.

Actually I think it is great that we have a black president but I don't think it's a credit to Obama, people are just happy because it marked a milestone for a group of people who've had it rough for a long time and it shows progress that the majority was willing to vote for him.  How exactly is he bending over for these dictators? I don't see it. I'm staying away from the Iran issue, it's far too convoluted for me and as far as I can tell it all boils down to racism and religion.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"From what I understand many Europeans are happy about the missile defense system out there which was shown to actually be incredibly ineffective was taken down.

Actually I think it is great that we have a black president but I don't think it's a credit to Obama, people are just happy because it marked a milestone for a group of people who've had it rough for a long time and it shows progress that the majority was willing to vote for him.  How exactly is he bending over for these dictators? I don't see it. I'm staying away from the Iran issue, it's far too convoluted for me and as far as I can tell it all boils down to racism and religion.

Iran should pretty much bow to us. We are stronger, smarter, and know what's better for the planet. Iran is a theocracy that needs to be stamped down to teach a lesson to the rest of its neighbors. We aren't going to tolerate your sabre-rattling or tough talk. You wanna wear big boy pants, we're going to kick you in the junk. Seriously. We have a half trillion ANNUAL budget for the military. Let's put it to use. This rules of engagement nonsense is why we're failing in Iraq. If we just simply struck randomly  and violently every time some insurgent did something until we had total peace in a region, we'd have no problem in the long run. Kiddie gloves do not work in war. Either we go all the way, or we go home.

The reason Blacks have had it rough is because a lot of their problems are self-inflicted. They've had every chance to improve themselves in the US and they still fail to do so. You know they get more funding for college than I do? They are more likely to have welfare, food stamps, and free housing while I have to work and go to school full-time? They have no reason to bitch. Everything is being offered to them if they are willing to work, they usually don't. And the ones who do actually do work hard and try to improve themselves are called House Nigga and Vanilla Gorilla. Some support there. I say let them fail. Obama is not the typical black person. He took his free college and did something. I still hate him because I will never receive such great benefits yet be expected to pay for others to get a free leg up.

I'm tired of this nanny welfare state we live in. We need to eliminate the weaker elements of our society and let the strong hard-working people (like me) do what evolution has rewarded for billions of years. We humans allow those who hinder us to prosper while punishing those who work to suffer.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"From what I understand many Europeans are happy about the missile defense system out there which was shown to actually be incredibly ineffective was taken down.

Actually I think it is great that we have a black president but I don't think it's a credit to Obama, people are just happy because it marked a milestone for a group of people who've had it rough for a long time and it shows progress that the majority was willing to vote for him.  How exactly is he bending over for these dictators? I don't see it. I'm staying away from the Iran issue, it's far too convoluted for me and as far as I can tell it all boils down to racism and religion.

Iran should pretty much bow to us. We are stronger, smarter, and know what's better for the planet. Iran is a theocracy that needs to be stamped down to teach a lesson to the rest of its neighbors. We aren't going to tolerate your sabre-rattling or tough talk. You wanna wear big boy pants, we're going to kick you in the junk. Seriously. We have a half trillion ANNUAL budget for the military. Let's put it to use. This rules of engagement nonsense is why we're failing in Iraq. If we just simply struck randomly  and violently every time some insurgent did something until we had total peace in a region, we'd have no problem in the long run. Kiddie gloves do not work in war. Either we go all the way, or we go home.

The reason Blacks have had it rough is because a lot of their problems are self-inflicted. They've had every chance to improve themselves in the US and they still fail to do so. You know they get more funding for college than I do? They are more likely to have welfare, food stamps, and free housing while I have to work and go to school full-time? They have no reason to bitch. Everything is being offered to them if they are willing to work, they usually don't. And the ones who do actually do work hard and try to improve themselves are called House Nigga and Vanilla Gorilla. Some support there. I say let them fail. Obama is not the typical black person. He took his free college and did something. I still hate him because I will never receive such great benefits yet be expected to pay for others to get a free leg up.

I'm tired of this nanny welfare state we live in. We need to eliminate the weaker elements of our society and let the strong hard-working people (like me) do what evolution has rewarded for billions of years. We humans allow those who hinder us to prosper while punishing those who work to suffer.

Yeah, i'm not giving a proper response to this, i'm sick of reading these ignorant posts, good job generalizing an entire race based on some media BS.

Hey I'm not being ignorant. As an educated Latino I know how it is to be attacked by your own people. Everytime I hear another Latino say, "You look brown but you talk white and shit. Sounds kind of faggy." is so infuriating. I respect Obama as an educated scholar, as a president I feel like we are in a bad way. I've witnessed it over and over. I'm screwed over constantly by the system that supposedly helps me. It tells me every day that I work and study too hard. That shit gets old.

I feel bad for blacks who try. They get shit on by people who should support them. I see it all the time and I am disgusted by this self-loathing mentality from the stupid ones. I mock those who voted for Obama because he's black (lots of people can't name a real policy of his yet still voted for him), not because he's a black man. His race is irrelevant to me. I try to see people as color blind as possible.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey I'm not being ignorant. As an educated Latino I know how it is to be attacked by your own people. Everytime I hear another Latino say, "You look brown but you talk white and shit. Sounds kind of faggy." is so infuriating. I respect Obama as an educated scholar, as a president I feel like we are in a bad way. I've witnessed it over and over. I'm screwed over constantly by the system that supposedly helps me. It tells me every day that I work and study too hard. That shit gets old.

I feel bad for blacks who try. They get shit on by people who should support them. I see it all the time and I am disgusted by this self-loathing mentality from the stupid ones. I mock those who voted for Obama because he's black (lots of people can't name a real policy of his yet still voted for him), not because he's a black man. His race is irrelevant to me. I try to see people as color blind as possible.

I apologize, I can respect that.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey I'm not being ignorant. As an educated Latino I know how it is to be attacked by your own people. Everytime I hear another Latino say, "You look brown but you talk white and shit. Sounds kind of faggy." is so infuriating. I respect Obama as an educated scholar, as a president I feel like we are in a bad way. I've witnessed it over and over. I'm screwed over constantly by the system that supposedly helps me. It tells me every day that I work and study too hard. That shit gets old.

I feel bad for blacks who try. They get shit on by people who should support them. I see it all the time and I am disgusted by this self-loathing mentality from the stupid ones. I mock those who voted for Obama because he's black (lots of people can't name a real policy of his yet still voted for him), not because he's a black man. His race is irrelevant to me. I try to see people as color blind as possible.

I apologize, I can respect that.

It's okay, I just have a lot of rage in me because of this shit. That's why it makes me so mad that I see those little white dots floating like sperm when I hear that I will have to buy health insurance. There's a reason people like me don't have insurance, IT'S TOO FUCKING  EXPENSIVE!! You can legislate a lot of pretty promises from your lofty clouds but the land-dwellers like me will never be able to afford your proposals. They will literally rape me financially even worse than before.

All this from the glorious leader who won a Peace Prize for nothing. Where's my big medal for doing well in nothing?

Quote from: "Big Mac"Hey I'm not being ignorant. As an educated Latino I know how it is to be attacked by your own people. Everytime I hear another Latino say, "You look brown but you talk white and shit. Sounds kind of faggy." is so infuriating. I respect Obama as an educated scholar, as a president I feel like we are in a bad way. I've witnessed it over and over. I'm screwed over constantly by the system that supposedly helps me. It tells me every day that I work and study too hard. That shit gets old.

I feel bad for blacks who try. They get shit on by people who should support them. I see it all the time and I am disgusted by this self-loathing mentality from the stupid ones. I mock those who voted for Obama because he's black (lots of people can't name a real policy of his yet still voted for him), not because he's a black man. His race is irrelevant to me. I try to see people as color blind as possible.

I just heard a kid on NPR's "From the Top", a program about young kids and teens who are musicians. In this week's show, an 18 year old boy, Marvin Brown (Cellist), talks about how it is for him to be a black teenager who plays the cello, and how poorly he is sometimes treated by other black teens. His segment on the show starts at minute 28.
http://www.fromthetop.org/radio/thisweek (http://www.fromthetop.org/radio/thisweek)

So BigMac's experience is unfortunately, one shared by others (and probably too many) who try to break stereotypes.

It's true sadly, it isn't the majority of black people, I took offense to his post and got a little angry about it and I apologized for it. I was always picked on for being the kid who paid attention for class and not being an OG, being mixed, etc it pissed me off a lot.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "karadan"As i said, I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

What does it matter? You guys still deal with us, you know what happens if you piss us off too much, and basically you're kind of like the girl who puts out even after you treat her like shit. You guys give us no real reward for changing our ways too drastically. And frankly I couldn't give two shits and a fuck about what the world opinion is about the US. You guys hate each other just as much and this whole "We don't like you" routine gets old. We do what we want so let's get the party started. PARTY HARD!!!!

Just out of curiosity what country do you hail from? I'm curious because I imagine its military and economics are not as powerful hence it's at a lower tier to us.

I just wrote an entire piece on how world opinion of a specific country is important but i deleted it because you obviously don't want to get it. Someone like me isn't going to change your mind.

I'm from the UK by the way.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I think with these accomplishments we are entitled to our "arrogance". When you guys actually do something like walk on the moon, invent the first semi-auto battle rifle to be fielded across your entire military when others are using bolt actions, dropping some atomic bombs on a country that won't quit, and essentially still kicking ass, then we'll be all ears about your opinion.

Notable British inventions:

The locomotive, light bulb (not an American invention), jet engine (sold to the US by our ridiculous govt), radio, submarine, seismograph, steam engine, television, umbrella, viagra, the internet, periodic table, penicillin, polyester, the transitor (and the worlds first transistor driven computer), lawn mower, scuba diving, tin can, cats eyes, cordite, disc brakes, cement, EKG, underground trains, electromagnet, electric motor, Internal combustion engine, fax machine, gas mask, radar, toilet paper, vacuum cleaner, universal joint.

There's a hell of a lot more. Your national arrogance is unwarranted simply because there are other countries out there with other, equally valid (although i'm not sure i'd want to brag about nukes) accomplishments. To discount these makes you sound rather out of touch with reality.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "Big Mac"I think with these accomplishments we are entitled to our "arrogance". When you guys actually do something like walk on the moon, invent the first semi-auto battle rifle to be fielded across your entire military when others are using bolt actions, dropping some atomic bombs on a country that won't quit, and essentially still kicking ass, then we'll be all ears about your opinion.

Notable British inventions:

The locomotive, light bulb (not an American invention), jet engine (sold to the US by our ridiculous govt), radio, submarine, seismograph, steam engine, television, umbrella, viagra, the internet, periodic table, penicillin, polyester, the transitor (and the worlds first transistor driven computer), lawn mower, scuba diving, tin can, cats eyes, cordite, disc brakes, cement, EKG, underground trains, electromagnet, electric motor, Internal combustion engine, fax machine, gas mask, radar, toilet paper, vacuum cleaner, universal joint.

There's a hell of a lot more. Your national arrogance is unwarranted simply because there are other countries out there with other, equally valid (although i'm not sure i'd want to brag about nukes) accomplishments. To discount these makes you sound rather out of touch with reality.

Agreed, i'm proud to be an American but it doesn't warrant total arrogance as if we actually are the greatest country on Earth. Depending on where this country goes in the next year or so I might move to the UK myself. Me a guy in class who is from England, says he's going back once he gets his degree and he's been persuading and rooting for me to go with him or at least come eventually to the UK for good. When he tells me about the place, when I read about the place, hell the EU in general it just seems like a better place right now.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "Big Mac"I think with these accomplishments we are entitled to our "arrogance". When you guys actually do something like walk on the moon, invent the first semi-auto battle rifle to be fielded across your entire military when others are using bolt actions, dropping some atomic bombs on a country that won't quit, and essentially still kicking ass, then we'll be all ears about your opinion.

Notable British inventions:

The locomotive, light bulb (not an American invention), jet engine (sold to the US by our ridiculous govt), radio, submarine, seismograph, steam engine, television, umbrella, viagra, the internet, periodic table, penicillin, polyester, the transitor (and the worlds first transistor driven computer), lawn mower, scuba diving, tin can, cats eyes, cordite, disc brakes, cement, EKG, underground trains, electromagnet, electric motor, Internal combustion engine, fax machine, gas mask, radar, toilet paper, vacuum cleaner, universal joint.

There's a hell of a lot more. Your national arrogance is unwarranted simply because there are other countries out there with other, equally valid (although i'm not sure i'd want to brag about nukes) accomplishments. To discount these makes you sound rather out of touch with reality.

Uh....I guess I should rephrase the lightbulb bit. We improved it leaps and bounds beyond what you guys and the French did with your noisy, weak fire-harzards of a bulb.

We invent better weapons....kind of makes us stronger.

Anyways, you may have your opinions. I frankly am more concerned about my own people (i.e. other Americans) because you guys are just as bad with the nationalistic nonsense. Every country is whether they admit it or not. Americans shouldn't feel guilty for owning guns, kicking ass, and being men. We should try to improve our own country before worrying about the world's opinion because frankly, it means shit.

Move to the EU ultima. Enjoy the socialistic nanny state that tells you how to live your life worse than any bible-thumper.

I'm ashamed to be American, honestly.

"Where are you from?"
"The fat stupid people that love war. You?"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Uh....I guess I should rephrase the lightbulb bit. We improved it leaps and bounds beyond what you guys and the French did with your noisy, weak fire-harzards of a bulb.

We invent better weapons....kind of makes us stronger.

Anyways, you may have your opinions. I frankly am more concerned about my own people (i.e. other Americans) because you guys are just as bad with the nationalistic nonsense. Every country is whether they admit it or not. Americans shouldn't feel guilty for owning guns, kicking ass, and being men. We should try to improve our own country before worrying about the world's opinion because frankly, it means shit.

Move to the EU ultima. Enjoy the socialistic nanny state that tells you how to live your life worse than any bible-thumper.

(in police voice): "Sir, have you been drinking tonight?"

No one, and I mean NO ONE is worse than a damn bible thumper.

Quote from: "Reginus"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Uh....I guess I should rephrase the lightbulb bit. We improved it leaps and bounds beyond what you guys and the French did with your noisy, weak fire-harzards of a bulb.

We invent better weapons....kind of makes us stronger.

Anyways, you may have your opinions. I frankly am more concerned about my own people (i.e. other Americans) because you guys are just as bad with the nationalistic nonsense. Every country is whether they admit it or not. Americans shouldn't feel guilty for owning guns, kicking ass, and being men. We should try to improve our own country before worrying about the world's opinion because frankly, it means shit.

Move to the EU ultima. Enjoy the socialistic nanny state that tells you how to live your life worse than any bible-thumper.

(in police voice): "Sir, have you been drinking tonight?"

(in a drunk voice) Fuck you officer, are you a Jew? Do you start all the major wars?

In all seriousness, I doubt the EU is this great paradise that some of the more loud mouth types have trumped up. I think it's a broken system that will fail. The only difference is that Americans are used to being big consumers. If we were more lean (which I concede the rest of the world learns by sheer harsh reality than any pious shit they push) we would kick your asses like we did back in the day. I don't think the Nazis/Soviets were entirely on the wrong track with being more efficient, I think they were too extreme to achieve their goals of glory and greatness (which would entail a more peaceful world in my opinion) that could indeed stabilize the planet by having enough spheres of influence to prevent a major war and still have bullshit hostility that maintained an imperfect but sustainable status quo.

We humans are not like elements/animals. We think, therefore we can have arrogance and aggression that is unchecked. Even the most powerful animal (the humpback whale) is peaceful compared to humans. We are violent little monkeys who thrive on killing each other.

Recall a very prolific idiom among Western people, "All is far in love and war."

Such a peculiar way of lumping a more peaceful act (making love/sex/fucking) with violence and pain (war)

Why is it always us vs. them? Last I checked  the EU and the US are on fairly good terms and the UK even more so.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Why is it always us vs. them? Last I checked  the EU and the US are on fairly good terms and the UK even more so.

As it stands all foreign powers are potential enemies to the US. The EU is a pretty big threat to economic and military issues with the USA. Maybe not now but in the future it could be. Our enemies can come from anywhere at anytime. We must be ready to smash and destroy every threat as efficiently, effectively, and swiftly as possible. I don't trust any other country, hell I don't trust my government. You think the EU or UN stand a chance of my faith in them?

Not saying we can't work together but we should never get too friendly. A more professional way of relations in my opinion.