Happy Atheist Forum

Found this article this morning and thought it was worth posting for others to read:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/08/animal.rights.threats/index.html

Yeah eco-terrorists are still a big thing.  Penn and Teller did a Bullshit! episode on PETA and about their connection to terrorist organizations.  These fuckers should be sent to live in Palestine and then maybe they wont give a rats ass about a fucking monkey.  Seriously watch the Bullshit! episode on PETA if you haven't.  One of the people connected to them and to the eco-terrorists got busted, has some long sentence but for some reason he gets out and go tells children how to make home made bombs to throw at people who do laboratory experiments on animals.  I hope these people get killed and eaten by the animals they kill humans for.

***EDIT***  Or better yet these people need to volunteer at places where they do laboratory experiments on animals and volunteer for the experiment themselves.

Personally, I do understand the importance of animal testing when it comes to areas of real science. While I don't like the idea of animals suffering and dying, I realize their sacrifices are for a wider good. Still, for every researcher curing polio there are ten "researchers" seeing if the latest eye-shadow is going to cause blindness. Animal testing should only happen in medical fields, never for cosmetics. Looking pretty is not a cause justifying the torture and killing of animals.

I've been an "eco-terrorist" before (I chained myself to trees, I've been involved at sit-ins at SUV dealerships, etc.), though, and I can tell you this article really doesn't do a good job at being objective. While animal testing is necessary for medicine, there's very rarely oversight to ensure that the animals aren't being unfairly abused. The Animal Welfare Act puts little to no restrictions on what can be done to animals during experimentation. Imagine someone were to take your dog and expose him or her to radioactive dust for a few days:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi167.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu140%2Filovesimpleplan234%2Fanimaltesting.jpg&hash=617069c0f4b2776450ba20fc69fc6b5712173b5a)
See what I mean? It's not a black and white issue.

I'm on the same boat with you along the lines of cosmetics.  Scientific testing is the only place where animals should be subjected to this.  Oh and will I don't consider you an eco-terrorist unless you fire bombed buildings and issued death threats.   So far you don't strike me as a fire bomber.  People who use intimidation, violence, and threats as a means to justify saving lil ole rover deserve neither praise nor respect.  They should be treated as a terrorist organization and dealt with accordingly.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone but lets be realistic about this.  People are killing human beings to save ferrets, dogs, hamsters, and monkeys.  These people need to either be locked up in an insaneasylum or in a prison.  They need to be removed from society to make our society a better and safer place.

Any organization incapable of nonviolent protest just can't be taken seriously, IMAO.  They do more harm to achieving more reasonable and ethical treatment of research animals with actions like this.  I mean really, I care about animals, but when I read an article like this my thoughts are with the researchers and their families safety rather than the animals. I also think it stratifies people in the sciences a little and puts people who do care about animal welfare who go into science at a disadvantage because it creates a more anxious atmosphere, at least in my experience.  I had a frustrating time in a class once when we had to kill a mouse for hybridomas.  We were supposed to kill the mouse by cervical dislocation.  I had to ask my professor to show me how to kill it properly because I'd never done it before and didn't want to screw it up and cause the animal undue pain, which he did and the technique was very quick and humane.  But because I tried to be compassionate towards the animal and learn how to kill it properly, the T.A. criticized me and said I couldn't make it in the sciences if I couldn't kill a mouse.  Ironically, when I went on a job interview and told them about some of the classes I'd taken and I guess mentioned I had worked some with animals, I got shown rapidly to the door by one of the interviewers and told shortly that if I wanted to "play with animals" I could try getting a job elsewhere.  

It's just a damned sensitive issue.  People firebombing researchers don't make it any better, just worse.

Quote from: "Will"I've been an "eco-terrorist" before (I chained myself to trees, I've been involved at sit-ins at SUV dealerships, etc.).

How the hell do you do a sit-in at an SUV dealership?

I mean the Canyonero would probably fit half you guys!!!
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flowdownlowdown.com%2Fgreenboy%2FMusicImage%2FCanyonero.jpg&hash=1cc84c37356f7534aee28114dcab5067f540e452)

Outdoor sit-ins are about numbers. Even the biggest dealerships can't deal with over maybe 400 protesters. The only problem is packing enough vegan lunches.  

Quote from: "Will"Outdoor sit-ins are about numbers. Even the biggest dealerships can't deal with over maybe 400 protesters. The only problem is packing enough vegan lunches.  

No offense, but I don't see why you'd protest the dealership. It's not like they make people buy those sissified tanks that guzzle gas worse than Anna Nicole Smith at a bar. You'd be better off destroying some SUV's.

Just kidding around, you ever been arrested for doing that?

yep. That's a complicated issue. Especially the greater good part, because what we essentially call the "greater good" applies mostly to humans, and not animals. argh... it just sucks either way. I own 4 dogs right now, and I love them very much. I wouldn't want them to be used for experiments.

Quote from: "Big Mac"No offense, but I don't see why you'd protest the dealership. It's not like they make people buy those sissified tanks that guzzle gas worse than Anna Nicole Smith at a bar. You'd be better off destroying some SUV's.

Somehow I don't think burning SUV's is going to send a good message about helping the environment.

And the sit-ins were sweeping successes. Imagine if a large Hummer dealership went from selling a few dozen cars a day to none for a holiday weekend.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Just kidding around, you ever been arrested for doing that?

I've been tossed in the back of police cars a few times, when I was younger, but it's really easy to avoid that when you learn the ropes.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"No offense, but I don't see why you'd protest the dealership. It's not like they make people buy those sissified tanks that guzzle gas worse than Anna Nicole Smith at a bar. You'd be better off destroying some SUV's.

Somehow I don't think burning SUV's is going to send a good message about helping the environment.

And the sit-ins were sweeping successes. Imagine if a large Hummer dealership went from selling a few dozen cars a day to none for a holiday weekend.

You don't feel a little bad for the guys who have families to feed?

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Just kidding around, you ever been arrested for doing that?

I've been tossed in the back of police cars a few times, when I was younger, but it's really easy to avoid that when you learn the ropes.

I've only been frisked by the cops. I tend to know how to work them so they don't want to arrest me. Though that gets harder to play the whole "I'm just a dumb kid" routine as you push you mid twenties.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You don't feel a little bad for the guys who have families to feed?

Do you think a police officer feels bad for a heroin dealer's family when he makes an arrest?

Anyway, the sit-in was mainly symbolic. Hummer died and got bought up by some foreign company and fuel efficient vehicles are flying off the lot. I see that as a small victory.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"You don't feel a little bad for the guys who have families to feed?

Do you think a police officer feels bad for a heroin dealer's family when he makes an arrest?

Anyway, the sit-in was mainly symbolic. Hummer died and got bought up by some foreign company and fuel efficient vehicles are flying off the lot. I see that as a small victory.

Actually most cops I've met say it's the hardest thing to see the dealer's kids have so much confusion and rage in their eyes because they know this cycle will continue because even though daddy sold bad things the kid doesn't know that. All he knows is that these men with blue uniforms, shiny badges, and guns are hauling daddy off and tearing him away from them. He then becomes angry at every cop on the street, because confused without a father around, and becomes angry as the world begins to shut down around him. The only solution seems to be crime. Thus the broken cycle continues another generation.

However, these were people who had a legit, if disgustingly wasteful, business going. I personally feel that vehicles of that size are for one real purpose....military/industrial use. When I worked at the mall as security I'd see 20 of those god awful things parked outside Nordstrom and ONE person (almost always an older white woman with tons of bags) climbing into it and riding off for her 10 mpg highway rating. These are also the same people who complain about high gas prices coming from dirty Arabs and such.

Anyway, I think your analogy is flawed because these are not bad people selling poison. They're selling a vehicle that consumes a lot of gas. Yeah it's not good but I don't think it's inherently evil like Heroin.

I understand this is your view Will and i'm really not trying to be an ass when I say this.  You are no police officer and the salesmen are no drug dealers.  I'm sure you can draw a few analogies between you and them but you can draw analogies from about anywhere for about anything.  Its not illegal to sell a Hummer.  People who own Hummers are probably not going to convince their friends to buy one like a druggie, they don't share the Hummer and go around breaking things or beat their wives because of it.

Police officers uphold justice not obstruct it based on their views... okay let me rephrase that ... Police officers are supposed to uphold justice and not obstruct it based on their personal views.  By you guys doing a sit in you are not upholding justice, you are beating up a few individuals out of many because you don't agree with their life choice that is perfectly legal.  Your sit in is the equivalent of a Fundamentalist Christian beating the piss out of someone for being an atheist and calling it God's Justice.  I'm sorry if this pissed you off but this is how I see it.  Maybe i'm not seeing the whole picture here but from what I've seen this is my conclusion.

I think Hummers are indeed a  scourge upon this earth but I think I agree with LoneMateria, his post makes alot of sense although i'm sure Will's protest wasn't to punish those who buy hummers but to make a political statement to the general populace.

I'm sure his intentions were in the right place but the impact it will have on some peoples lives.  I mean for those salesmen who make commission they need that to support their families after all most people live paycheck to paycheck.  Since Will mentioned holiday i'm thinking xmas in which case the salesmen need their comission for gifts and holiday festivities.  Don't get me wrong I too think Hummers are bad for everyone and i'm not questioning your motives i'm questioning the actions.

( I don't want to turn this into a slagging off Will thread, but here goes. . .)

To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

I like your jumper though.

And on topic, animal testing for medicine=yes, otherwise, a lot more dubious. I for one would be pretty pissed if one of my family members was dead because there were drugs to treat them, for the sake of some monkeys.

Hopefully in the future we will be able to grow specific parts of the human body so we can just do testing on that stuff.

That would be awesome for transplants as well. Of course, technology like that will need a lot of testing on animals first, there are no easy answers in all this.

Really? Why would animals need to be used for testing on human organs?

Quote from: "Big Mac"Actually most cops I've met say it's the hardest thing to see the dealer's kids have so much confusion and rage in their eyes because they know this cycle will continue because even though daddy sold bad things the kid doesn't know that.

That's not what I mean. Cops don't stop and think, "Well, I should probably bust this cocaine dealer, but he has a family. I'll go bust someone else." Sure, it's a shame, but the drug dealer is responsible both for his behavior and for his family. Choosing such an inherently destructive and harmful vocation is not only irresponsible personally, but it also makes him or her irresponsible in being responsible for a family.

Quote from: "Big Mac"However, these were people who had a legit, if disgustingly wasteful, business going. I personally feel that vehicles of that size are for one real purpose....military/industrial use. When I worked at the mall as security I'd see 20 of those god awful things parked outside Nordstrom and ONE person (almost always an older white woman with tons of bags) climbing into it and riding off for her 10 mpg highway rating. These are also the same people who complain about high gas prices coming from dirty Arabs and such.

Anyway, I think your analogy is flawed because these are not bad people selling poison. They're selling a vehicle that consumes a lot of gas. Yeah it's not good but I don't think it's inherently evil like Heroin.

There's no such thing as evil.

As I said, it was more about theatricality than it was actually damaging the business. It was mostly about reminding consumers of their responsibility to buy things that aren't terribly wasteful and damage the community than it was about punishing sales people. Still, they're not totally innocent. What they do to buy groceries for their family does have an inherently destructive result.

Quote from: "SSY"To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

Like the Nobel Peace Prize, it's about intent and attempt. I probably do waste more than some people, but when I make decisions as a consumer I make them with more than just myself in mind. It's not about a game of moral superiority, though, it's about simply how people need to act in order for problems we're facing to go away. I can only wait so long for people to make better decisions. In a way, this is about self-interest (in the way that evolutionary altruism is about self-interest).

Growing animal organs first to make sure that they will adhere to the animal.  It would literally involve taking a healthy animal and cutting out some vital organ and putting a new one in.  Sucks to be the animals but that would bring an end to animal testing.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Actually most cops I've met say it's the hardest thing to see the dealer's kids have so much confusion and rage in their eyes because they know this cycle will continue because even though daddy sold bad things the kid doesn't know that.

That's not what I mean. Cops don't stop and think, "Well, I should probably bust this cocaine dealer, but he has a family. I'll go bust someone else." Sure, it's a shame, but the drug dealer is responsible both for his behavior and for his family. Choosing such an inherently destructive and harmful vocation is not only irresponsible personally, but it also makes him or her irresponsible in being responsible for a family.

Quote from: "Big Mac"However, these were people who had a legit, if disgustingly wasteful, business going. I personally feel that vehicles of that size are for one real purpose....military/industrial use. When I worked at the mall as security I'd see 20 of those god awful things parked outside Nordstrom and ONE person (almost always an older white woman with tons of bags) climbing into it and riding off for her 10 mpg highway rating. These are also the same people who complain about high gas prices coming from dirty Arabs and such.

Anyway, I think your analogy is flawed because these are not bad people selling poison. They're selling a vehicle that consumes a lot of gas. Yeah it's not good but I don't think it's inherently evil like Heroin.

There's no such thing as evil.

As I said, it was more about theatricality than it was actually damaging the business. It was mostly about reminding consumers of their responsibility to buy things that aren't terribly wasteful and damage the community than it was about punishing sales people. Still, they're not totally innocent. What they do to buy groceries for their family does have an inherently destructive result.

Quote from: "SSY"To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

Like the Nobel Peace Prize, it's about intent and attempt. I probably do waste more than some people, but when I make decisions as a consumer I make them with more than just myself in mind. It's not about a game of moral superiority, though, it's about simply how people need to act in order for problems we're facing to go away. I can only wait so long for people to make better decisions. In a way, this is about self-interest (in the way that evolutionary altruism is about self-interest).

No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

Quote from: "Big Mac"No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

No, I'm not. I'm equating myself to the police, within the question of how I feel about their families. It wasn't a perfect illustration, but you asked about the children.

Quote from: "Big Mac"And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

Those are harmful and destructive, sure, but why use a word with such obvious religious connotations? Evil is generally associated with the devil, with the moral absolutism of religion. Anyway, we're getting waaaay off topic.

Animal rights activists vs. scientists.... go!

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

No, I'm not. I'm equating myself to the police, within the question of how I feel about their families. It wasn't a perfect illustration, but you asked about the children.

Quote from: "Big Mac"And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

Those are harmful and destructive, sure, but why use a word with such obvious religious connotations? Evil is generally associated with the devil, with the moral absolutism of religion. Anyway, we're getting waaaay off topic.

Animal rights activists vs. scientists.... go!

So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal? It's just one animal and it's for the greater good. I'd have no problem cutting a dog up or gassing a monkey or burning a pig alive if it meant that it would help mankind out with advances in medicine. I'd feel bad for the animals but it's for the greater good. They're animals, after all.

You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

Quote from: "Big Mac"So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal?

I think you missed this, in post #3:

Quote from: "Will"Personally, I do understand the importance of animal testing when it comes to areas of real science. While I don't like the idea of animals suffering and dying, I realize their sacrifices are for a wider good.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

Because I'm a moral relativist, I'm allowing evil, therefore you're thinking about changing your mind when it comes to atheism and becoming religious again? That's... um... interesting.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal?

I think you missed this, in post #3:

Quote from: "Will"Personally, I do understand the importance of animal testing when it comes to areas of real science. While I don't like the idea of animals suffering and dying, I realize their sacrifices are for a wider good.

Quote from: "Big Mac"You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

Because I'm a moral relativist, I'm allowing evil, therefore you're thinking about changing your mind when it comes to atheism and becoming religious again? That's... um... interesting.

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

Quote from: "Ultima22689"You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

You know I think I became one out of anger more than really any real reason I guess. Yeah there is some kooky stuff in the bible but I think the overall message is great. And I do feel a sense of peace reading it. Maybe God's plan was so above us we don't understand why he would have his people slaughter others. I don't know, but I do feel more at home with religion.

Not trolling, and I know we're off-topic, I'm sorry.

I just don't see what's wrong with experimenting on animals and Will didn't to a certain extent either. Sorry dude, I did miss that post.

Quote from: "Big Mac"No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

You know I think I became one out of anger more than really any real reason I guess. Yeah there is some kooky stuff in the bible but I think the overall message is great. And I do feel a sense of peace reading it. Maybe God's plan was so above us we don't understand why he would have his people slaughter others. I don't know, but I do feel more at home with religion.

Not trolling, and I know we're off-topic, I'm sorry.

I just don't see what's wrong with experimenting on animals and Will didn't to a certain extent either. Sorry dude, I did miss that post.

I see, you have some serious thinking to do man and I hope whatever you decide it makes you happy because it seems like you aren't. Don't let your anger rule your mind, if you do it will only lead to your destruction.

I don't think anyone here truly thinks it's ok to test on animals and as much as I hate to say up till now and for awhile longer it was/is necessary, the sooner we perfect the ability to grow organs the quicker we end animal experimentation.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.

I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

I don't like the idea of animals suffering either, but if it must be done it must be done.

Quote from: "Big Mac"No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

I don't believe in a universal "evil" because I don't believe in evil.  Evil is a perspective relative to the people.  People in the bible time thought unbelievers were evil and it was a good thing to kill them, just like homosexuals and anyone else who didn't subscribe to their brand of faith.  Its all about perspective.  Just because you are more conservative then others don't mean you are more like a religious person.  

I too hope i'm wrong and there is an afterlife but I'm pretty sure it's wishful thinking.  I can only live as long as the human race remembers me.  Metaphorically of course.  Since I want to do whats in the best interest of our race so I need to do, or be a part of, something worthy of being remembered.  If i'm wrong about the afterlife then I will have a surprise and my journey is only truly beginning.  If i'm right then I need to make sure my life counts on Earth.

I can't make myself believe in a concept that doesn't make sense.  I cannot sacrifice reason and logic to wishful thinking ^_^.  If like you said you became an atheist out of anger then you need to explore many religions and if it leads you to a belief in a deity then so be it.  As long as it's an honest seeking of truth then no one can be mad at you and you can't be mad at yourself.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

It's hard to tell when you're being serious. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume you're being honest.

The idea that there's a point is something that was instilled in you when you were very young. "It's all part of God's plan!" they'd tell you when bad things happened. That taught you, erroneously, that there's some sort of overarching meaning to life or to the universe or something. That's not how it works, and because that's not how it works you were living your life according to a lie. The truth, the real truth, is that the universe most likely  is as it appears, but that doesn't mean you live a life without meaning. The true meaning of your life is something you get to discover and explore yourself. Maybe the meaning of your life is falling in love with a beautiful woman, having a few kids, and living in a house with a white picket fence with a respectable career and a muscle car in the garage. Maybe your meaning of life is to have a close group of friends to furiously debate with about everything from science to politics to philosophy. Maybe your meaning comes from teaching young people, preparing the next generation for the world. Each of these can provide a rich and fulfilling existence, something worthy of your efforts and devotion, and something that will give you back something so much more real than a mythological creator.

For me, it's obviously being a regional moderator on a great forum.  

Well I mean I think a lot of the stories in the bible are meant to be symbolic like Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden. Even Job is recognized by Catholics and Jews as a fictional account to show that faith in god is important even in dark times. I don't know, I'm at a crossroads religiously. Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

I don't know, it just seems very empty.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Big Mac"No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.

I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

I don't like the idea of animals suffering either, but if it must be done it must be done.

Well let me use myself for an example here, i'll explain myself and how i maintain such strong optimism most of the time. I clearly don't believe in God obviously, on that 1-7 scale I  consider myself a 6 and so i'm pretty sure God doesn't exist even though I can't prove it and go about my life assuming he doesn't. I don't worry about death, I don't intend to die(sounds crazy, I know) but if I do then oh well, if there is an afterlife i'll cross that bridge when I get there, I worry about what's going on and now what the future could be and try to do as much good in the world as I can. Focusing on the idea that I might just be dead when(if) I die will just make me feel sad so I don't focus on it, I'm more interested in what's going on now and the great innovation headed our way. If I die and there is an after life the odds of it being the christian/Muslim/Jewish God is so unlikely considering they have no more proof than any other religion i'm sure i'm good. Hell, this higher power and after life could be something that no human has ever thought of before. So cheer up dude, i'm assuming you are a young bright person since you mentioned you were in college earlier or were recently in college, you have plenty more years before you ever have to worry about dying and if you try to be more open minded death may be a thing of the past. Don't let the negative things in the world get you down. Atheism isn't about "YOU DIE, IT'S THE BITTER END!" It's about making the best of what we have and forging a better future for mankind via logic, reason and science.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Well I mean I think a lot of the stories in the bible are meant to be symbolic like Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden. Even Job is recognized by Catholics and Jews as a fictional account to show that faith in god is important even in dark times. I don't know, I'm at a crossroads religiously. Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

If I may:
- The Garden of Eden tells a story where God created individuals which had no concept of ethics or morality, then asked them not to do something which provides them with an understanding of morality and ethics because it was wrong. The individuals, not understanding the request and being tempted by a third party, indulged in that thing and were then aware of ethics. This represents a logical paradox. The moral of the story is incredibly important because it speaks about the nature of religion: religion will tell you that you're wrong for doing things that people have been doing for millennia without any moral hangups. You will, of course, eventually do these things anyway because they're a normal part of human behavior, but you'll be punished by the strict dogma of religion because that's how they control you.
- Noah's Ark tells a story of a pious family and a vengeful, genocidal God. God, not being happy with the people he created and that he could just as easily change with the power of the Holy Spirit, demands that a particularly pious follower, Noah, undertake an exhaustive and needless construction project in order to house an absurdity; the idea is that an ark could be created by one man and his family within their lifetimes large enough to fit two of every species on the planet, the idea of course being that diversity in a gene pool isn't necessary and having a male and female of a species is more than enough to create a new population. God then carries out a hateful attack on the planet, murdering in cold blood millions of innocent (well, guilty in the eyes of a murderer) people while saving only the most pious along with a biological nightmare. The moral of the story is simple: do what you think God wants or you and everyone you love will die. Also, a male and female of a given species and create a new and diverse population and the genetic problems that come from multigenerational inbreeding are a myth.

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Big Mac"Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

I don't know, it just seems very empty.

You don't need to validate your existence through some supernatural being.  You just need to find what gives you purpose, something you like doing.  Then do it.  If you enjoy working with computers pursue a career in which you will enjoy what you do.  Life is about the pursuit of happiness and the freedom to achieve your goals.  Only you can decide what makes you happy.  I don't need Santa Clause, elves, a unicorn, a god, or bigfoot to make me happy.  Happiness comes from within.

Well, I do need elves actually. I don't know what I would do if Legolas didn't tuck me in at night.

Here is something interesting that popped up on reddit.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54850,news-comment,news-politics,after-scientific-proof-of-pain-should-we-ban-islamic-and-jewish-religious-slaughter

Scientists don't always make enemies of Animal Rights activists apparently.

I'm glad we can cut through the propaganda from kosher OCD practices. I can't tell you how many times a Jewish or Muslim friend has assured me that holding an animal upside down and slashing its throat is somehow the most humane way for them to die. Don't get me wrong, the Muslim butcher has the best lamb in town, but let's not pretend that somehow god gave them a special method of slaughter. It causes extreme suffering.

Was there a thread about a humane method of slaughtering animals somewhere round these parts? I remember having a conversation about this.

I don't remember one.  I figured this would be appropriate to add in here even though it may merit its own thread.  At least some places are taking a stance against this type of killing.  I don't think the U.S. can legally do it though because of our separation of church and state.  (A side note many religious people have selective memory about this law.  Homosexuality is a prime example, according to religion is bad and homosexuals should have no rights and the government should recognize it, but the religious practice of slaughtering animals is sacred and must be protected by separation of church and state [/end mini rant])