Happy Atheist Forum

Is it just me or do theists use the same arguments that have been rebutted over and over again?  Today I was going through the New Wire at infidels.org and came across this article.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17267 With the title "New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says".  Okay I realize that this is a catholic news site but seriously why use the same arguments that have been rebutted, pass them off as a scientific discovery and say shit like:

QuoteTheism, in fact,  can be better explained by contemporary science and modern philosophy better than ever before,  but particularly interesting is what is happening in the field of astrophysics ... to the point that  I can't imagine why agnosticism and Atheism are still popular,” Fr. Spitzer said.

Theism can be explained by science and philosophy.  Philosophy yes you don't need evidence to support your claim you just need backwards logic and poof theism.  Science ... really can I see some evidence ... no ... why not you said it was science ... oh none exists okay.  The part that really burns my ass is the last part, why is agnosticism and atheism so popular?  Um... maybe because we are people who don't make up answers, we say we don't know and move on instead of making up shit, then being forced to make up more shit to make the first shit sound good, repeat forever.  Maybe atheism and agnosticism wouldn't be popular if you would present actual evidence to back up your made up claims.

Why is it that the arguments for the existence of a deity don't change until we get to the point whenever someone says the argument they are laughed at?  Oh the universe had a beginning so theres a god, oh our laws say matter cannot be created or destroyed therefore a god made them (non sequitur), oh theism explains everything why don't you atheists just accept our explanation?  Seriously is wrong with these people?

That same basic arguement never changes, but how they deliver it does.

Quote from: "Ninteen45"That same basic arguement never changes, but how they deliver it does.

Why do you think that is?  Are they being intellectually dishonest or willingly ignorant?  Or is it something else?  I never understand why people put so much stock into these arguments, have them thrown back at them .... and then they still use it.

Quote from: "Ninteen45"That same basic arguement never changes, but how they deliver it does.

[strike:3vraqueo]Whats the same basic argument?[/strike:3vraqueo]

Quote from: "Reginus"

Quote from: "Ninteen45"That same basic arguement never changes, but how they deliver it does.

Whats the same basic argument?

Look at the article.  Cosmological Argument for the existence of God.  The arguments are then considered evidence (Very common theme for theists btw).  Assertions, appeal to authority (and the authority figure has no background in what they are appealing to), failure to grasp science, failure to understand laws of probability, and non sequitur analyses are the same fallacies they have been using for years to back up their flawed arguments.  This article was just an example that no matter how many times an argument has been refuted it is still used.

Arguments still in use today include:
The Cosmological Argument
Fined Tuned Argument
(The 2 in this article)
Pascal's Wager
Ontological Argument
Transcendental argument
Argument from design
Moral Argument
Anthropic argument
Teleological Argument
Argument from incomplete knowledge
Argument from Laws

and the list goes on and on.  These arguments have been used forever, been refuted, and are still being used.  These are all fallacious arguments and are often "backed up" by even more fallacies, other bad arguments, poor reasoning skills and outright lies (on occasion [and even more when it comes to certain apologists like Ray Comfort and Pat Robertson]).

Ooops misread. srry

It's so simple. All of those arguments point to something existing that is "god", without actually giving any characteristics to god. These arguments have to be the ones used, because these are the only arguments that can justify anything at all existing.

Think about it, if theists could actually settle on a common set of characteristics that "god" has, then it would be the easiest thing in the world to see if he exists. You wouldn't need any types of arguments. Just see if the set of characteristics exists as a bundle, and you'll know.

The amount of arguments theists are able to make to back up their assertion of god are limited to arguments that support his existence without supporting the characteristics they associate with him. After all, it's pretty easy to refute basic christianity on it's actual characteristics.

All you have to do is see if the characteristics that christianity associates with god, "exists". And guess what, they don't. Everything we have suggests that the universe is a lifeless vacuum, DEVOID OF ANY TRUE LIFE!!!  

To all who read this I'm not going to try to prove God exist simply because I can't. So you want have to hear the same old arguments from me. What I will say is like you I did not believe in God until He proved Himself to me and when He did that opened up a door that I chose to go thru and see what He was all about and what He might have to offer. I liked what He showed me and so He keep revealing thing to me until I was able to understand His simple plan for salvation and I accepted His Son Jesus as my savior and ever sense He has opened up so much more. By his grace my life has new meaning and I can truely live free. I will say this though that unless you do as I did you will never be able to understand anything about God.

Fixed:

To all who read this, I'm not going to try to prove Chocolate Cake exists simply because I can't. So you won't have to hear the same old arguments from Me. What I will say is, like you, I did not believe in Chocolate Cake until It proved Itself to Me and when It did, that opened up a Door that I chose to go through and I saw what It was all about and what It might have to offer. I liked what It showed me and It keeps revealing things to Me and now I am able to understand Its simple plan for salvation and I accept Its Son Chocolate Brownie as my savior and since then It has opened up so much more. By His [ed: Jeez you missed one] grace My Life has new meaning and I can truly Live free. I will say this though; unless you do as I did you will never be able to understand anything about Chocolate Cake.

You guys must think your funny, to me I see you as childish, inmature and not able to respond to a Christians point of view. The last time I was on this forum there were many with whom I could talk to intellegently where did they go,so I can have some mature and intellegent discussions. Did they move on because you guys were acting so childish.Now though I do know who not to take seriously thanks for the heads up.

Quote from: "Godschild"You guys must think your funny, to me I see you as childish, inmature and not able to respond to a Christians point of view. The last time I was on this forum there were many with whom I could talk to intellegently where did they go,so I can have some mature and intellegent discussions. Did they move on because you guys were acting so childish.Now though I do know who not to take seriously thanks for the heads up.

You need to take the sample population into account. There's one asshole substituting Chocolate Cake for God. That doesn't mean the whole forum will.

Edit: I forgot to capitalize Asshole. It should read thus:
You need to take the sample population into account. There's one Asshole substituting Chocolate Cake for God. That doesn't mean the whole forum will.

Quote from: "Godschild"I could talk to intellegently where did they go,so I can have some mature and intellegent discussions.

The last time you were on the forum you respected the members so much that you left randomly.  I think you need to learn how to figure out when people aren't trying to be serious.  Maybe if you say something worthy of a thoughtful response you'll receive one.

Quote from: "Whitney"The last time you were on the forum you respected the members so much that you left randomly. I think you need to learn how to figure out when people aren't trying to be serious. Maybe if you say something worthy of a thoughtful response you'll receive one

I'm not sure what you mean. I left because my job became more demanding of my time and before one knows it much time has slipped by. It was also becoming  :)

Godschild, as discussed in numerous other threads here, there are not only many reasons to think your god is fake (even if a god does exist) but also to think that your god is evil.  If I have no evidence of some sea creature that has not been discovered then I won't believe that it exists, once it has been discovered I will believe it does exist.....same standards apply to god.

I have said on this forum and elsewhere many times that I would accept a solid philosophical proof of god as enough reason to become a deist....but such a proof does not exist; they all have problems (which is what this thread is about...kinda)

Maybe you should ask "God" to help you learn how to pay attention and understand where people are coming from instead of trying to pretend like we have views which mirror your perceptions of what a heathen should be.......

Quote from: "Godschild"... It was also becoming  :)

Way to try and make your god impervious to logic, reason, critical thinking and evidence.  I applaud your poor job.  You have to make many assumptions to get here so lets explore them.  Omitting the obvious assumption that there is a god.  First assumption God is a guy, Second he is all knowing, third there are other sciences (do you know science is?  Its a process not a device), fourth you assume he is undetectable by our current methods, and fifth he wants to remain undetected.  Thats as batshit crazy as saying God put fossils on earth to test our faith.  Think about this, what if there is no God wouldn't that be a much simpler solution then your five assumptions in your poor argument?  Occam's razor at its finest, remove all the unnecessary crap until you are left with the most basic solution that corresponds to evidence.  There is no God.

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "Whitney"The last time you were on the forum you respected the members so much that you left randomly. I think you need to learn how to figure out when people aren't trying to be serious. Maybe if you say something worthy of a thoughtful response you'll receive one

I'm not sure what you mean. I left because my job became more demanding of my time and before one knows it much time has slipped by.

Which would be randomly leaving....you were involved in conversations and didn't even bother to say you'd be busy with work for a while.  Not that I care...but it will affect how much effort people put into responding to what you have to say.

Quote from: "Whitney"Godschild, as discussed in numerous other threads here, there are not only many reasons to think your god is fake (even if a god does exist) but also to think that your god is evil. If I have no evidence of some sea creature that has not been discovered then I won't believe that it exists, once it has been discovered I will believe it does exist.....same standards apply to god.

Surely you jest,you do not believe that undiscovered creatures are yet to be found in the depths of the oceans? Does that logic of yours cause you to believe the men and women that dive to great depths are just wasting their time because no ones ever seen the undiscovered. Give me some reasons that my God is not real and some reasons that you think He is evil.

You accussed me of lumping all athiest in the same moral basket yet you turn around and do that with christians.If I believe that you are a heathen I will tell you so that you can count on.

That was beautifully ironic. Thank you.

^ Thread title ^

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "Whitney"Godschild, as discussed in numerous other threads here, there are not only many reasons to think your god is fake (even if a god does exist) but also to think that your god is evil. If I have no evidence of some sea creature that has not been discovered then I won't believe that it exists, once it has been discovered I will believe it does exist.....same standards apply to god.

Surely you jest,you do not believe that undiscovered creatures are yet to be found in the depths of the oceans? Does that logic of yours cause you to believe the men and women that dive to great depths are just wasting their time because no ones ever seen the undiscovered. Give me some reasons that my God is not real and some reasons that you think He is evil.

You accussed me of lumping all athiest in the same moral basket yet you turn around and do that with christians.If I believe that you are a heathen I will tell you so that you can count on.

I do not believe in the specific creature until it is discovered.....

I don't have time to re-hash the Christian God discussion right now; you can see what I have said about it elsewhere on the forum if you look around.

A heathen is someone who doesn't believe in the Judeo-Christian god....that means atheists are heathens.  What did you think heathen meant?

Quote from: "LoneMateria"

Quote from: "Ninteen45"That same basic arguement never changes, but how they deliver it does.

Why do you think that is?  Are they being intellectually dishonest or willingly ignorant?  Or is it something else?  I never understand why people put so much stock into these arguments, have them thrown back at them .... and then they still use it.

By that I mean they will still use the "Atheists are immoral" crap, but change how it is delivered.

Bible says atheists are immoral.

Survey says atheists are immoral.

See?

Perhaps we can do a survey or some test to see if atheists really are immoral.  We would probably be surprised how close in morals we are to everyone else.  Unless we have questions specifically to get people to agree with like, "In verse x:x of the bible god orders his people to slaughter group y is this a good thing?"  but I think that might be considered a bad question if we were really going to do it.   Perhaps we can come up with a survey on here and post it on various places and compare results ^_^.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Perhaps we can do a survey or some test to see if atheists really are immoral.  We would probably be surprised how close in morals we are to everyone else.  Unless we have questions specifically to get people to agree with like, "In verse x:x of the bible god orders his people to slaughter group y is this a good thing?"  but I think that might be considered a bad question if we were really going to do it.   Perhaps we can come up with a survey on here and post it on various places and compare results ^_^.

First we'd need to get atheists to agree on what morality is. If I lost points for not observing the sabbath I'd be pissed. We could measure criminal convictions and maybe weight the seriousness of the crimes, maybe based on fine or length of imprisonment? But you'd also need to find sample populations that were equal in other aspects. If it turned out that atheists were on average more affluent for example then that might affect the results.

Yeah there would be tons of variables and we would have to say what is right and wrong and it would somehow have to not be colored by our own beliefs.  I'd break someones nose if I lost points for not observing the sabbath.  Perhaps we should try a different survey.  What about taking some verses out of the bible where God is doing some morally objectionable actions like, killing unbelievers, witches and so on and see if people think those are morally right.  Perhaps not even tell them its from the bible and if the person is a "Christian" and he disagrees with his god's decisions we can prove that followers are more moral then the god they claim to worship as perfect.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Yeah there would be tons of variables and we would have to say what is right and wrong and it would somehow have to not be colored by our own beliefs.  I'd break someones nose if I lost points for not observing the sabbath.  Perhaps we should try a different survey.  What about taking some verses out of the bible where God is doing some morally objectionable actions like, killing unbelievers, witches and so on and see if people think those are morally right.  Perhaps not even tell them its from the bible and if the person is a "Christian" and he disagrees with his god's decisions we can prove that followers are more moral then the god they claim to worship as perfect.

You'll get the response that the new testament supersedes the old testament I think. Damn it, now I'm using the theist arguments that never change!

Well then I tend to say when someone spouts off that dribble, "How do you know Jesus was the Christ?"  Besides we can pull things from the New Testament as well.  Like when Jesus advocates beating certain slaves worse then others.  I can make like 10 questions off of that passage ^_^

If you're doing a survey to asses the moral differences between atheists and Christians, might I suggest a random sample, and keep the questions generalized, ie:

Under what circumstances is murder moral?
A) Never
B) Self-Defense
C) Defense of Property or self defense
D) Religious reasons, defense of property, or self defense
E) Personal gain

etc.

But you would still have to create an answer key unless you plan on distributing it as you see it.  (Example: x% of Christians say its morally right to kill in self-defense)  Unless thats your goal then we'd still have to find some way to come up with morally correct answers that isn't colored by our personal beliefs.

Quote from: "Godschild"To all who read this I'm not going to try to prove God exist simply because I can't. So you want have to hear the same old arguments from me. What I will say is like you I did not believe in God until He proved Himself to me and when He did that opened up a door that I chose to go thru and see what He was all about and what He might have to offer. I liked what He showed me and so He keep revealing thing to me until I was able to understand His simple plan for salvation and I accepted His Son Jesus as my savior and ever sense He has opened up so much more. By his grace my life has new meaning and I can truely live free. I will say this though that unless you do as I did you will never be able to understand anything about God.

I see this one of three possible ways:

1. Your described events are real. The actual God as described by the Bible opened a telepathic link to your mind and sent you visions and/or messages. He does this as normal ongoing event, and he allows you to initiate telepathic communications. The information you receive appears relevant and meaningful. You are certain that you have made consistent on-going telepathic contact with a supreme being. You will trust him with your life now, do as he commands, and when he is ready to take you home, you will live for eternity with him and many other followers.

2. Your described events are figments of your imagination and/or side effects of brain washing. You have imagined visions that could be interpreted as coming from the only God you are familiar with. You are likely to believe that God sent them because the other church members receive them and talk about them as if they are expected. Do they actually receive real visions, or do they misinterpret their own imagination as a "God-thought" because everyone before and around them also misinterpret the visions the same way? Has every vision from every Christian come from their own mind? When you receive messages from God, perhaps there is no telepathic link to a supreme being. Maybe you think to yourself a message to him. You perceive him sending you a return message. Perhaps he is the first to start the conversation. But in truth, you thought the message yourself. You aren't aware of it. Perhaps your God is just your own responses to yourself but in your own special God-voice. Possibly your own subconscious. Because you expect a God to exist, and so does all your companions at church, you listen to yourself and believe he really talks to you.

Sometimes you hear bad ideas from a voice that is neither your own thought-voice nor God's though-voice. The voice suggests you visualize the attractive person in an inappropriate sexual manor. It will recommend you go to church 10 minutes late. These voices belong to Lucifer, lesser demons, or "The Flesh". God, demons, the flesh... Who are they? Is God, Angels, Demons, and your own desire for comfort and satisfaction all battling over your spiritual strength and purity? No, they are not. You unknowingly make these thoughts to yourself. Are you insane? Do you perceive your own conscious thoughts as many different telepathic entities because they exist, or because you have been brainwashed into expecting their existence? Are they your own conscious thoughts, or are they in some manor linked to your subconscious, or in another way an unconscious subsystem of the human brain?

Many preachers state that the key to growing in your Christian life is to read the Bible and know the word in your mind and in your heart. You read and study the Bible because you think you will learn to hear the supreme being speak to you, and to more perfectly follow it's divine will. But that isn't what is happening at all. In reality, you read the Bible so you can determine which random day-dreams are likely to be religiously exploitable. You read the Bible so that your God/Demon/Flesh thought-voices will make performances in proper sync with everyone else's interpretation of the vast spiritual skies and endless battles between Angels and Demons. Actors in a great play only learn their parts by reading the scripts, understanding their character, and practicing their lines. That is why you read scripture and listen to the preacher.

Now you believe there is an actual war in the spiritual realm. You actually believe your prayers are heard. You perceive your prayers as being heard. You are aware that God always responds in one of three manors: yes, no, wait. You accept that your obedience and his divine plan for everyone is actually more important that what you asked for in your prayer. God is not your own personal chef or butler. You are one of many servants, and he is the master. All the churches as a whole are his bride. You ask for something. You receive it. You are certain that God answered your prayer. You put no thought in whether or not you would have gotten it regardless of prayer. Maybe a little, but perhaps an angelic thought-voice or your own thought-voice reminds you to be faithful. You actually believe God inspired that thought, or that an Angel spoke to you.

You believe your prayers send an actual message over a telepathic link to heaven and/or your God. You honestly believe that large groups of people shooting their Pro-Life thoughts at your mutual God would somehow encourage or empower Angels to stop the young pregnant teenager from down the street.

But none of this is real. You were brainwashed into thinking these entities would initiate telepathic communications with you. You aren't aware that you are thinking a conversation with yourself. It's OK. It is more than normal to think a thought and not realize you thought it yourself. It's not likely a sign of actual insanity. You have been brainwashed, and brainwashed people don't always have an easy time realizing the truth.

3. You have lied to us. You either thought it would be funny to mess with the userbase of this forum, or you have never had a satisfying spiritual experience and you made one (or a few) up to feel like you have actually played a relevant part in your own religion. If possibility 3 is correct, you will likely leave. You most likely won't admit to it. Maybe you made it up as a lie and forgot you made it up. Maybe Christianity is real and you are not aware. Maybe it is all myth and your are not aware. It could really go either way for you. Will you read the Bible and for once hear his true voice, or will you learn about the fallacies and disbelieve?

Which of the three do you belong in?