Happy Atheist Forum

I received this disgusting email from a family member today. Makes me sick. As if you could really put kindness into a percentage? Uhmm... hello? There is nothing scientific about this.



Are Atheists and Theists Morally Equivalent?

Do people need God to be good? Daniel Dennett’s Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon, Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion, Chris Hedges’s American Fascists, Sam Harris’s Letter to a Christian Nation, and Christopher Hitchens’s God Is Not Great all claim that theism (and Christianity in particular) is morally inferior to atheism.
Richard Dawkins goes on to claim that religion is a form of child abuse that should not be taught to young children. However, a recent study by Reginald W. Bibby, Board of Governors Research Chair in the Department of Sociology at the University of Lethbridge, Canada, shows that atheists rate several moral values less important than theists do.

Religion and morality
Christians are far more likely than atheists to be part of groups that work hard to instill values about being good to other people, and having good relationships. The teachings of the Bible emphasize values such as honesty, love, forgiveness, patience, and generosity. Many of these values are not emphasized in social circles dominated by atheists.

Importance of moral values
A survey of 1,600 Canadians asked them what were their beliefs about God and what moral values they considered to be "very important." The results of the survey are shown below:

Moral Values of Theists vs. Atheists1

Moral Value

 Theists

 Atheists

 
Honesty

 94%

 89%

 
Kindness

 88

 75

 
Family life

 88

 65

 
Being loved

 86

 70

 
Friendship

 85

 74

 
Courtesy

 81

 71

 
Concern for others

 82

 63

 
Forgiveness

 84

 52

 
Politeness

 77

 65

 
Friendliness

 79

 66

 
Patience

 72

 39

 
Generosity

 67

 37

 

Although the differences between theists and atheists in the importance of values such as honesty, politeness, and friendliness are generally small, moral values emphasized by religious beliefs, such as Christianity, including patience, forgiveness, and generosity exhibit major differences in attitudes (30%+ differences between theists and atheists).

What really concerns me is that only half of atheists think that forgiveness is very important. Either these people have not been married or maybe married multiple times, since a lack of forgiveness in a marriage is a sure recipe for disaster. Couple that moral belief with a perception that neither patience nor generosity are very important, and it seems that the divorce rates are likely to go up significantly in the near future.


According to Professor Bibby, Grandma is the "symbolic saintly person in the clan. So valuing Grandma also means valuing many of the things important to her. In successive generations you have a lingering effect of morality. But further down the road generations get further removed from the sources of those values. That's where it gets tricky."2
Conclusion
Contrary to the claim of the "New Atheism," it seems that atheism leads to a decline in the perception of the importance of many personal moral values, especially those that have a big impact on interpersonal relationships. Since these new atheists are still being influenced by persons of traditional religious moral values, it seems likely that the importance of these values will diminish even further in the beliefs of the next generation of atheists. According to Reginald Bibby, the author of the study, "To the extent that Canadians say good-bye to God, we may find that we pay a significant social price."2 In addition, a recent scientific study shows that a certain atheistic belief (determinism or lack of free will) negatively impacts moral behavior.3

Everything that I've read shows that atheists and Christians are pretty much equal morally.

I feel as though this is utter bullshit, Tests like this would be interesting.

Not only religion, but for people with different backgrounds, and from different places.


I honestly think a person from a rich and seperated family may be less "generosity" but may have better "politeness" and "family treatment" than one from a broken family.

and similerly, a family from a poorer country (And thus, a family that depends on nature's balance to be intact) may take more care for the enviroment than an avaerae city-goer.

So what is this survey called?  Why is it lacking on details?  Whats the norm and the standard deviation for the numbers?  Of the 1600 sent out how many participated of each side?  Why do we expect this information to be valid?  I'd send questions like these back to your uncle or whoever sent this.  Until some of these questions are answered i'd say its probably made up numbers.

 is not a crime.

http://www.reginaldbibby.com/ (http://www.reginaldbibby.com/)

I think I'd respond to the family member saying that slandering a whole group of people without checking their facts is immoral.

Even if this poll was done correctly and accurately, it only shows that theists tend to check more boxes on polls than atheists.

ooo... scary

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Even if this poll was done correctly and accurately, it only shows that theists tend to check more boxes on polls than atheists.

ooo... scary

Checked boxes for what they considered "very important." Meaning they would then be less judgmental than Christians. Imagine that.  

... not valid.

While I suspect there may be differences, I don't believe any type of survey would give an accurate comparison.
There are too many factors involved in why people answered the way they did.

I would only be willing to look at some kind of impartial, third-party study of people's actions.
(and they could not be aware they were being studied, of course).

I'll wait until some real science comes along...
JoeActor

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Even if this poll was done correctly and accurately, it only shows that theists tend to check more boxes on polls than atheists.

ooo... scary

Checked boxes for what they considered "very important." Meaning they would then be less judgmental than Christians. Imagine that.  

You inverted the meaning... more boxes selected means less selective.

The results might be more interesting if there were a set number of values that people could choose from.  Then we might see some polarization, rather than consistently higher numbers on one side (something that makes me think that the people who organized the poll were just a wee bit selective, but that's a different matter).

That's another good point. But what I mean is: by them asking what is "very important" the atheists could have thought "very important to what? For whom? What I value in others?" Instead of for them personally. Thus it would mean they wouldn't think critically of a person with little patience, whereas a theist, in their absolute morality, would be more inclined to do. But yes, you're right. They should release all the details (and have phrased the question better).

Specific to the thread title, I'd actually argue that atheists are MORE moral than theists, as a general rule.  Atheists inform their morality through rational and reasonable thought... through their evolution as pack animals, whereas theists are moral out of some fear of later punishment.  They think that they are going to have a better chance at heaven by being moral, that being immoral will hurt their chances of floating on clouds with harpsichords for eternity.  It has little if any bearing on a desire to help their fellow man.  It's not based on compassion or empathy, but on fear of punishment from a cosmic dictator.

In that sense, I'd say atheists are MORE moral than theists.


Further, all one needs to do is look to the past to see how many atrocities have visited this planet EXPRESSLY because people thought that they were acting on the writings of a book... the will of a celestial sky pixie... Justifying their actions because god demanded it.  They can do anything they choose specifically because they think they have been sanctioned by god.  Atheists do not suffer that same folly.  So, on this front as well atheists are more moral.

Finally, if one considers telling the truth to be moral, then again atheists take the lead.  While I don't believe that many theists intentionally lie, any third party/objective viewer can plainly see that the claims of theists are based on falsehoods and/or wish thinking alone.

So... in sum, on pretty much every single meaningful front, as a general rule, atheists are MORE moral than theists.