Happy Atheist Forum

I knew today would be hard. The anniversary of 9/11 always sort of hangs like a dark cloud over my head, although this year seemed to be a little harder than most. Since my deconversion, my utter anger at the stupidity and violence committed in the name of religion is stronger. When I was a Christian, I saw the 9/11 attacks as a holy war and I was convinced I would eventually become a martyr for my side, and now although I still see it as a type of religiously-condoned war act, I can't help but be angry at the ignorance of people and fearful for the future.

But what was hardest for me today wasn't remembering the horror of what happened in 2001 or seeing flags at half-mast. It was what happened on Facebook, as lame as that sounds. Late last night (early this morning), I posted a picture that has become somewhat famous in nonreligious circles: the Twin Towers, still standing, with the words "Imagine No Religion." I copied a verse from the song "Imagine" to go with it, as my way of memorializing the day. I expected to get some flack about it as I always do whenever I make my thoughts on religious matters known, but I didn't expect it to go as far as it did.

The first response I got was from my sister, who early in the year "re-converted" to Christianity after several years of dabbling in Wicca and other New Age types of spirituality:

Thinking that this is it... All there is... No afterlife... No divine intervention... That is what makes me wish I were never born. Reiligion (sic) isn't the enemy. Crazy people that think they are religion - that's the enemy.

My answer: There is so much to this universe and this life...believing there is an afterlife seems selfish and unnecessary. The very fact that we are here is amazing, and I don't need to buy into a bunch of weird spiritual to see that.

Sad thing is, religion is the enemy. Demanding that we respect the unqualified and outrageous beliefs of others is exactly what gave those 19 young men the ability to do what they did, as they believed they were commanded by their god. If there is a god, which is highly unlikely, he is a bigger asshole than Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot could have ever hoped to be.

Then I got more comments from my sister's mother-in-law, who is a former pastor (now retired) and my best friend who is also an atheist:

Mother-in-Law: Religion is defined as man's attempt to reach God, so whatever you believe is your religion. This being so, how could anyone else's beliefs, religion, affect you? It is their ACTIONS which affect us, and also show the world what our true beliefs are. It has been the actions of hateful people who have caused the hurt and anger in the world, but if we believe in LOVE, then we our actions should show this to the world.

Best Friend: Lets be open to ideas. Careful not to turn atheism into its own form of militant religion. I ♥ you! And a side note....they weren't following their religion....and what they believed they were doing and why is very complex and something man made, not religion made...

To which I quoted a few verses from the Quran wherein Allah calls for the destruction of non-believers. My sister, who I also consider my best friend, replied with this:

And yet all believe in the 10 commandments more than a few verses. Which includes, thou shall not murder. It's not the religion it's the people. You are so up in arms about religion you are becoming a bit of a bigot.

I was dumbfounded. My own sister called me a bigot? That hurt a lot. And not only that, but as the day progressed she said she's finding it harder to be my sister (as if she has a choice...) and that our relationship is strained because I'm so adamantly against gods, religion, and the supernatural. It is not in my nature to hate, and I do not believe in discrimination of any kind...so where does she get off calling me a bigot? Why is it so hard for her to agree to disagree with me and just have a debate without name-calling? Her mother-in-law was a lot more open to me and seemed willing to disagree but still keep the discussion civil.

I knew that being openly opposed to religion wouldn't get me any easy friends and would probably turn a lot of people against me. I expected that, just not from my sister who I love so much and who has been a wonderful friend to me. I don't want to lose my relationship with her. I just don't know what to do. I feel lucky that some people from here and another forum I'm on answered my call for help and came to back me up...but now she thinks that my "friends" and I are attacking her. I feel really alone...and now I don't know if I can ever come out to my parents, because if this is what I'm getting from my liberal Christian sister who lives thousands of miles away, what might my conservative, evangelical Christian parents, with whom I live, do?

Stay strong. Being an open atheist can be hard, especially when those around you are hostile to such ideas.

Ugh.

I agree with them.

Religion is just a book. I don't stab Lord of the rings fans because I like J.K Rowlings novels more, But I wouldn't do it with the bible either.

Religion just appeals to the insane because it says killing is okay, while saying to others it isn't.

You're handling it very well. Keep it up. Most of what you're getting from them is their own inabilities to reconcile their feelings the facts. Your mother-in-law is simply defining religion as she wants it to be and ignoring the facts that billions of other people define it differently, and that it is the actions of people that illustrate their adherence to their religion. In the case of 9/11, it was adherence to a dogmatic, radical form of Islam that directed people's actions against other people.

Stick to your guns, gently if possible, and you'll be ok.

 

I just never thought it would go so far. My sister thinks I'm this hateful person now...she said she liked it better when I was a Christian and went around condemning her to hell and all that. I just wish she could see that I'm not what she thinks I am...

I'm tired of crying over it, but I think this is just the beginning.

(((Big Hugs)))

I'm sorry you are discovering this side of people because it really hurts.  I grew up with it so I am hardened to it - mostly.

Nothing on this earth that I've ever encountered is more divisive than religion.  It can inspire hatred towards people who were once loved and a sickening degree of cruelty towards those same people.  I've taken in teens/young adults who came out or were outed as not sharing their parents' religious beliefs, I've also taken in teens/young adults who were outed as other than heterosexual.  In both types of circumstance, religious beliefs caused parents to do awful things to their children.  Some of these parents physically assaulted their children - punched, kicked, and beat them with things - before throwing them out of their homes.  Four of these young people required stitches and two of the young men had broken bones as well.  

Religion is not harmless.  Studies suggest that over 40% of homeless teens are homosexual while less than ten percent of the general population is homosexual.  In my experience they are driven from their homes by religious parents who beat them, threaten them with death, or simply discard them for their failure to conform to their parents' religious beliefs.  A smaller number of homeless teens are those who have expressed their disagreement specifically with parental religious beliefs. That number is probably far less significant - but not to the kids in question.  There are enough of them that over the years I ran into four of them including three kids who were Pagans and an agnostic atheist - all of whom were either thrown out of their religious parents' homes with varying degrees of violence or fled after varying degrees of religiously motivated abuse.  (Then there was the teen who was gay and Pagan - I don't know which infuriated his CRC parents more.)

That's Christian love for you.  This is the dark aspect that I've seen quite clearly but there are many others.

I suppose I can be thankful that I don't have to endure physical threats and violence along with all of this. At least I have that much. Still, the pain I'm feeling from all of this really has me down. I haven't felt this bad in a long time. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not a bad person...I'm not a bad person...it breaks my heart to think that my sister, who I'm closer to than anyone in the world, could think of me this way.

 

I did not mean to belittle your pain in any way.  I was simply presenting other examples of how religion can turn family against each other which present a clear cut indication of which thing is causing the pain.  The religion caused the division and caused the people to act against their natural inclinations.

No, you are not a bad person for pointing out reality.  Those 19 people would not have smashed planes into the Twin Towers without religion.

The way I think of it, your sister isn't a bad person either, she's just under the influence of a dangerous and powerful delusion.  She's been trained to respond with "righteous" indignation and anger to any perceived threat to her beliefs.  It's a horrible shame that her love and natural empathy has been overshadowed by her belief.

Perhaps the line to take might be to reassure her that you love her despite her religious hatred of your views?

I know she isn't a bad person, she just gets very..."passionate" when she's arguing. We both do. We got that from our mom, I think. I know that sometimes she says things in the heat of the moment without thinking, like suggesting I move to Finland or Russia if I don't like religion here in the US. But man, talk about feeling betrayed.

I'm so glad that I have places like this that I can turn to when things like this happen. The Meetup group I belong to is getting together tomorrow, so maybe I can cry on some shoulders there too. *sigh*

Your sister is just being a typical believer....if you don't believe you must be broken; you can't just not believe because you realized there was no reason.  I called her out on it on fb, I hope that was okay.  I tried to word it as nicely as possible while pointing out how wrong it was for her to say something like that.   I also hope she thinks about my last question related to if she would think you have emotional problems causing your non-religion if she were also an atheist.  If she really thinks about it I think she'll find that, just like we've been saying, religion can make good people be mean.

Btw, does A/N stand for Atheist Network?

It stands for Atheist Nexus, the social networking site. I've posted about this whole thing on there too.

Quote from: "Chimera"It stands for Atheist Nexus, the social networking site. I've posted about this whole thing on there too.

Ah, okay.  I have a profile there but I don't think I've ever posted.  I don't really like the forum format of the ning sites.

I go there quite a bit, mainly just to lurk around and read interesting threads and articles. It's also nice to have a network of people to turn to when things get tough. Like right now, I could really go for a hug and an antacid but I'll settle for kind thoughts and words from strangers.

I'm so sorry Chimera.

I think it is really hard for us who used to be believers.  My family and I were all Mormon.  It was very comfortable.  No disagreements about religion.  We had some common ground.  Then I had to go and become evil.  I hate how its all MY fault.  It has nothing to do with the religion being completely man made and ridiculous, no!  Its my fault, I turned to the dark side.  

I had some problems with my sister on facebook too.  She threatened to delete me as her friend, and tell my nieces and nephews to delete me, if I insulted her anymore.  I didn't insult her.  I posted some comments critical of Mormonism, and some thought provoking web sites.  I posted some notes entitled; Why I'm not at church, in case you are interested.  I tried to explain my journey out of faith in a non-offensive way.  I guess I failed.  My sister says I should remove that note because she is not interested in my experiences.  WTF?  She used to want to hear all about my life.  

I avoid facebook now.  I guess I should go back because I have other friends there who could care less about religion.  Its just that it hurts remembering what my sister said to me and how she puts religious dogma before our relationship.  

I think I know how you feel.  [[[[[hugs]]]]]

That actually sounds very close to what I'm dealing with, Lea. My sister wrote me a private message today asking me to stop posting "anti-religious" things on Facebook. I think I was very non-offensive (or tried my damnedest to be) toward her and others in the argument, and some people here agreed with me. She got very nasty and personal and got called out on it by some other atheist friends I have and didn't like it very much, but was adamant about standing by everything she said. It's hard to believe someone who says she loves me could be that heartless, bringing up personal issues from my past that have no bearing on the present whatsoever.

People get personally offended when it comes to their religion.  Those people often view non-religion as a "personal attack" against them.  I think it has something to do with the child like mentality associated with religion, but I don't have much to back up my claim.  I don't use facebook anymore but if it were me, I understand shes family, I'd remove her from my facebook after leaving her a comment saying, "Its easier this way so we won't fight, when you calm down and realize i'm not attacking you i'd be glad to add you back".  Thats the best I an offer, if your page offends her then she doesn't need to see it, shes family if she needs you she can get in touch some other way.

A side note.  I freaking hate A/N.  The format sux, but on top of that the atheists I've encountered there are not my type of atheists.  They seem to not care that fundies keep trying (and have on occasion) to pass unconstitutional laws (for us in the states) trying to put their religion into our politics.  These people are the type who would go to the Atheist Church to make theists more comfortable with us.  I got into it with a few people and just said screw this I want to converse with atheists who have brains, so here I am .

Heh. I dunno, I've found a lot of friends on there, all of whom are just as pissed as the rest of us at the religious right and their tactics. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places...or maybe I am! :D

But back to my dear sister...sometimes I think it would be a good idea to remove her from Facebook, but I still don't want to do that because not only does it keep me in touch with her, but it's the only way to "see" my young nieces. I'd miss the pictures and cute videos too much. Maybe I can just take her off my wall feed and she can do the same. That way we can still be in touch but not have to worry about arguments like this again.

Quote from: "Chimera"Sometimes I wish there were some sort of atheist thing where I could meet with other people on a more regular basis. Not a church, per se, but some sort of social group. I belong to an atheist Meetup group in my town, and while the people are great, we only meet once a month, if that. I miss having weekly interactions like I did when I went to church. And coffee hour.  

There has to be more then 1 atheist group in your area.  Or maybe you can see if you and some of the group members want to meet some other time during the week.  Meet up at a pub for drinks or for dinner somewhere.  I'm sure there are people who want to meet more.

Quote from: "Chimera"But back to my dear sister...sometimes I think it would be a good idea to remove her from Facebook, but I still don't want to do that because not only does it keep me in touch with her, but it's the only way to "see" my young nieces. I'd miss the pictures and cute videos too much. Maybe I can just take her off my wall feed and she can do the same. That way we can still be in touch but not have to worry about arguments like this again.

I hate to sound negative about this, but if your sister hates you for being an atheist, or being proud of it, thats going to get passed down to her kids probably.  Like I said before I understand shes family, but why should you have to hide who you are and what you believe because it makes her uncomfortable?  Personally I'd remove her until things calmed down and continue posting whatever I want to on my page.  Either she will come to her senses or she won't.  If she does you add her again and she won't bother you about what you have on your page.  If she doesn't ... well I personally wouldn't want to bite my tongue about something like this forever.  It's your decision though.  Thats my view of it ^_^

I told her it was unfair to ask me to stop posting stuff like that. I have other Christian friends on FB who are always posting videos, Bible verses and other things and we leave each other alone. Seems she's the only one who has a problem with me doing what I do, but I'm not going to stop. I love her, but I can't hold my tongue either!

Quote from: "LoneMateria"A side note.  I freaking hate A/N.  The format sux, but on top of that the atheists I've encountered there are not my type of atheists.  They seem to not care that fundies keep trying (and have on occasion) to pass unconstitutional laws (for us in the states) trying to put their religion into our politics.  These people are the type who would go to the Atheist Church to make theists more comfortable with us.  I got into it with a few people and just said screw this I want to converse with atheists who have brains, so here I am :blush: , I guess it is good you haven't seen my posts about me being involved with NTCOF.  I guess it is also good I don't typically talk to whomever you talked to on A/N because no one I know from the "church" is passive about laws which violate separation of church and state.

Quote from: "Chimera"Sometimes I wish there were some sort of atheist thing where I could meet with other people on a more regular basis. Not a church, per se, but some sort of social group. I belong to an atheist Meetup group in my town, and while the people are great, we only meet once a month, if that. I miss having weekly interactions like I did when I went to church. And coffee hour.  

Ask the organizer if you can be an assistant organizer and host a second meeting so that the meetings can be bi-monthly.  If the organizer won't release control, start your own group and have it meet as often as you like.  The meetup group I organize only meets once a month because that's all I have time/money for.  I have an assistant organizer who does happy hours (giving us two meetups a month) when he has time.  But we also have about 5 other groups in the area that meet throughout the month...more than one group isn't really a bad thing.

I like the happy hour idea!  

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"A side note.  I freaking hate A/N.  The format sux, but on top of that the atheists I've encountered there are not my type of atheists.  They seem to not care that fundies keep trying (and have on occasion) to pass unconstitutional laws (for us in the states) trying to put their religion into our politics.  These people are the type who would go to the Atheist Church to make theists more comfortable with us.  I got into it with a few people and just said screw this I want to converse with atheists who have brains, so here I am :blush: lol it was freaking terrible.  I was told everything would be better if atheism was a religion so the bs/unconstitutional laws that occur would not affect us.  I got so pissed I decided that I was talking to an atheist Ray Comfort and just left.  I don't know if I mentioned on another post when i've ranted about A/N that I feel Atheist Churches are counter productive at clearing up misconceptions about atheists.  But thats a discussion for another thread ^_^

Chimera i'm glad you are taking steps to defend yourself.  I was wondering there if you were going to do it.  Hopefully you two can resolve whatever issue she has with atheism.

It's helped that I've rounded up a lot of atheist friends on Facebook to back me up. If it were just me trying to stand up for myself, I'm not sure what I'd do.

Quote from: "Chimera"I just never thought it would go so far. My sister thinks I'm this hateful person now...she said she liked it better when I was a Christian and went around condemning her to hell and all that. I just wish she could see that I'm not what she thinks I am...

I'm tired of crying over it, but I think this is just the beginning.

I can really relate to your situation, something like this happened to me too. You really can find out a lot about people in times like these. Your sisters words in regards to your atheism will always cut you deep if you let them. Especially since it doesn't appear she's too understanding about your opinions on religion, etc. Sometimes people get to caught up in their religion or even themselves and don't realize the things they say to others can infact hurt them a lot. I'm sure as time goes by dealing with situtions like the one you're in now will get easier. I hope it does!

Quote from: "Chimera"It's helped that I've rounded up a lot of atheist friends on Facebook to back me up. If it were just me trying to stand up for myself, I'm not sure what I'd do.

I read the entire thread on FB but was a little hesitant to write anything. I guess anything constructive had already been said by other HAF people.

It is a sad situation :D