Title: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 04:43:20 PM
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 04:43:20 PM
I've been kind of annoyed at this lately, but I know it'd be super-disrespectful to say what's on my mind.
My step-dad's uncle's wife was diagnosed with some sort of cancer, and it was looking really terrible, it was even in her bone.
About a month ago everyone received phone calls at how she miraculously recovered and there was no more cancer. So, they threw a party last month for "all her angels who prayed for her".
From what my parents say, they weren't religious at all prior to this disease, but now they're posting stuff like
In a way, I want to link them to articles about how praying doesn't help anything, but I know it wouldn't be effective. I went to the recovery party even though I'm not someone who prayed, and felt kind of excluded, as if I weren't actually invited.
Now, I think knowing people care about you is one thing, but I consider praying just a way for people to THINK they're doing good without actually doing anything at all.
I probably shouldn't say anything on the family's message board, but should I even bother if they say something in person? I'm not terribly close to any of them, and I feel like they're all condescending to me anyway, though more because I'm 21 and younger than them, than because of my lack-o-faith (which they don't know about, but I think my parents are kinda vocal).
I don't know, I'm torn, but I feel like even if I posted links to articles against prayer and stuff they'd just brush it off.
Just another area of life where I feel excluded because of what I don't believe in.
My step-dad's uncle's wife was diagnosed with some sort of cancer, and it was looking really terrible, it was even in her bone.
About a month ago everyone received phone calls at how she miraculously recovered and there was no more cancer. So, they threw a party last month for "all her angels who prayed for her".
From what my parents say, they weren't religious at all prior to this disease, but now they're posting stuff like
Quote from: "uncle"As it is a scientific fact that person's that are prayed for heal faster and have a greater survival rate that those who don't, no one can deny that your prayers and positive thoughts and energy have helped us.
Our most sincere, heartfelt Thank You's to all of you angels that have helped carry us through.
In a way, I want to link them to articles about how praying doesn't help anything, but I know it wouldn't be effective. I went to the recovery party even though I'm not someone who prayed, and felt kind of excluded, as if I weren't actually invited.
Now, I think knowing people care about you is one thing, but I consider praying just a way for people to THINK they're doing good without actually doing anything at all.
I probably shouldn't say anything on the family's message board, but should I even bother if they say something in person? I'm not terribly close to any of them, and I feel like they're all condescending to me anyway, though more because I'm 21 and younger than them, than because of my lack-o-faith (which they don't know about, but I think my parents are kinda vocal).
I don't know, I'm torn, but I feel like even if I posted links to articles against prayer and stuff they'd just brush it off.
Just another area of life where I feel excluded because of what I don't believe in.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Reginus on September 07, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
Post by: Reginus on September 07, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
ROFL just stumbled apon this:
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/aboutspiritualresearch/SpiritualPractice/prayer/howprayerworks
Apperently it actualy works, you just have to do it right.
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/aboutspiritualresearch/SpiritualPractice/prayer/howprayerworks
Apperently it actualy works, you just have to do it right.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 04:57:45 PM
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 04:57:45 PM
Quote from: "Reginus"ROFL just stumbled apon this:
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/aboutspiritualresearch/SpiritualPractice/prayer/howprayerworks
:P
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: skurry on September 07, 2009, 06:45:28 PM
Post by: skurry on September 07, 2009, 06:45:28 PM
Can someone link the article where the experiment showed people who were prayed for did worse?
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 06:49:19 PM
Post by: Moosader on September 07, 2009, 06:49:19 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/
That's the main one I could find.
That's the main one I could find.
QuoteResults showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: iNow on September 07, 2009, 08:14:45 PM
Post by: iNow on September 07, 2009, 08:14:45 PM
Quote from: "skurry"Can someone link the article where the experiment showed people who were prayed for did worse?I posted a few here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3847&p=49403#p49403 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3847&p=49403#p49403)
I think you're asking about the first one.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Recusant on September 07, 2009, 10:59:29 PM
Post by: Recusant on September 07, 2009, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: "Moosader"...should I even bother if they say something in person?
What possible benefit is there in this, for you or for them? If you want to build a reputation for yourself within the family as an insensitive heel, then by all means scoff at their beliefs and point out their delusions. In my opinion though, there is really nothing to be gained by this. Most likely the cancer is in temporary remission, and will return, bringing tragedy with it. Far better to stifle your scorn and let your folks enjoy the comfort which their mythology brings them, while they can.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: rlrose328 on September 08, 2009, 12:05:32 AM
Post by: rlrose328 on September 08, 2009, 12:05:32 AM
Unfortunately, Recusant has a very valid point. Whenver my mom asks if she can pray for me or my son when he's having a bad week, I say, "Yes, please." She knows I'm an atheist but what possible good can come of telling her that her prayers mean absolutely nothing to me or my son? That though she and everyone she knows in her 500 family congration have been praying for my soul for over 20 years, I'm still an atheist? If her god were listening, wouldn't he have done something by now? Her prayers are her own waste of time, not mine.
I know the biggest thing you want to point out isn't just that their prayers are useless but that they are relying on faulty "science." But in the end, it won't matter to them, it will just further frustrate you, and really, you don't want to shit where you eat. Just nod, smile, and say you're happy she's recovered, bite your tongue and get on with your life. Family is not the audience to listen to an anti-prayer rant, no matter how well meaning or rational it may be.
I know... it's just more :hissyfit: rather than :hide:
I know the biggest thing you want to point out isn't just that their prayers are useless but that they are relying on faulty "science." But in the end, it won't matter to them, it will just further frustrate you, and really, you don't want to shit where you eat. Just nod, smile, and say you're happy she's recovered, bite your tongue and get on with your life. Family is not the audience to listen to an anti-prayer rant, no matter how well meaning or rational it may be.
I know... it's just more :hissyfit: rather than :hide:
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Moosader on September 08, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
Post by: Moosader on September 08, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: "rlrose328"I know... it's just more :hissyfit: rather than :hide:
Yeah really. It stuns me that someone's faith can be strengthened by getting cancer and then getting OVER cancer, but being left permanently damaged and having to be on medication that makes you loopy for life. The uncle is now on antidepressants and their life isn't ever going to be the same. God's totally awesome.
Also, let's give credit to God and people who prayed, rather than, y'know, the doctors. '_'
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: McQ on September 09, 2009, 03:32:24 AM
Post by: McQ on September 09, 2009, 03:32:24 AM
I feel your frustration, Moosader. And tomorrow night I'll have to put up with possibly hundreds of people telling me and others how much faith, prayer and miracles help in making people with cancer get better. I'll be at the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society's annual "Light The Night" celebration, which is actually a good thing. Especially since my son is the honored guest (Hodgkin's Lymphoma Survivor). I'm one of the speakers, and you can bet I will be talking about how advances in medicine have contributed to the nearly 90% survival rate in patients who get treatment.
But I know that I'll get tons of people talking to me about the miracle and how faith was so crucial in healing him and others. Since I work closely with the LLS for my job, I have to be very diplomatic with these people. Since it's not a religious based group, it shouldn't be bad, but I do have to prepare for those individuals who are a bit over the top with the sky pixie stuff.
But I know that I'll get tons of people talking to me about the miracle and how faith was so crucial in healing him and others. Since I work closely with the LLS for my job, I have to be very diplomatic with these people. Since it's not a religious based group, it shouldn't be bad, but I do have to prepare for those individuals who are a bit over the top with the sky pixie stuff.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: skurry on September 09, 2009, 04:48:12 AM
Post by: skurry on September 09, 2009, 04:48:12 AM
McQ, I am glad to hear your son was one of the lucky ones. 
Perhaps it wouldn't be the right, but also the perfect, time to bring up the "prayer does nothing speech" in you speech?
What do you think? Science and Religion are always head to head and obviously science has prevailed in this situation.
Perhaps it wouldn't be the right, but also the perfect, time to bring up the "prayer does nothing speech" in you speech?
What do you think? Science and Religion are always head to head and obviously science has prevailed in this situation.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: McQ on September 09, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
Post by: McQ on September 09, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
Quote from: "skurry"McQ, I am glad to hear your son was one of the lucky ones.
Perhaps it wouldn't be the right, but also the perfect, time to bring up the "prayer does nothing speech" in you speech?
What do you think? Science and Religion are always head to head and obviously science has prevailed in this situation.
I think, in this case, it would be inappropriate to put that into my speech. The LLS is a non-religious (i.e. not sponsored by nor particularly interested in religion) non-profit organization. It's just that there will be patients, former patients and families at the event that are religious. This is Lancaster County, PA, the home of the Amish and Mennonites, after all. I just have to deal with the families, survivors, etc. on an individual basis that will be earnestly thankful for the prayers they received - and talking with me about it. These people also believe in and utilized medicine via their physicians, but they just also happen to believe prayer helps.
My goal is to remind people how much the LLS has given to them, how much access they gave to free care and medicine, and to ask them to keep supporting the LLS and those who need its services. Without the advancement of science, there would be no way to celebrate the evening.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Ninteen45 on September 11, 2009, 07:47:30 PM
Post by: Ninteen45 on September 11, 2009, 07:47:30 PM
Prayer is quite odd. It can come as a form of of the placebo effect, which in this case it may have helped, or the more common mocebo.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Arctonyx on September 11, 2009, 08:35:21 PM
Post by: Arctonyx on September 11, 2009, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: "Ninteen45"Prayer is quite odd. It can come as a form of of the placebo effect, which in this case it may have helped, or the more common mocebo.
I don't have the link at hand. But didn't a study into prayer discover that it either had no effect, or either made patients do slightly worse due to complications?
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: iNow on September 11, 2009, 08:37:30 PM
Post by: iNow on September 11, 2009, 08:37:30 PM
Yep. A few of them have. See my post above.
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Lea on September 12, 2009, 04:04:43 PM
Post by: Lea on September 12, 2009, 04:04:43 PM
When family members say they will pray for me and my family, I let them and say "thank you."
I'm my mind I interpret their "I will pray for you" to "I hope you get better soon." (or whatever fits the situation) I don't want to completely alienate my relatives. If someone else in the family is having a difficult time, it works as well. When everyone gives their pledge to pray for the person, I just say what I hope happens in their situation. For someone who lost their job for example, "I will be thinking about you, and hope you find a new job soon. I will bring you dinner on Thursdays, if thats okay."
Its hard not to burst their bubble of delusion, but hey, they enjoy their belief in the invisible man in the sky. IMO its best to show them that atheists can actually be compassionate and supportive. If they approach you about your non-belief, thats the time to discuss and debate. (If they can keep it civil.)
I'm sorry you feel excluded from your family. The path we have chosen can be lonely, but you have us!
I'm my mind I interpret their "I will pray for you" to "I hope you get better soon." (or whatever fits the situation) I don't want to completely alienate my relatives. If someone else in the family is having a difficult time, it works as well. When everyone gives their pledge to pray for the person, I just say what I hope happens in their situation. For someone who lost their job for example, "I will be thinking about you, and hope you find a new job soon. I will bring you dinner on Thursdays, if thats okay."
Its hard not to burst their bubble of delusion, but hey, they enjoy their belief in the invisible man in the sky. IMO its best to show them that atheists can actually be compassionate and supportive. If they approach you about your non-belief, thats the time to discuss and debate. (If they can keep it civil.)
I'm sorry you feel excluded from your family. The path we have chosen can be lonely, but you have us!
Title: Re: Almost can't help but say something.
Post by: Ninteen45 on September 12, 2009, 06:12:14 PM
Post by: Ninteen45 on September 12, 2009, 06:12:14 PM
Quote from: "Arctonyx"Quote from: "Ninteen45"Prayer is quite odd. It can come as a form of of the placebo effect, which in this case it may have helped, or the more common mocebo.
I don't have the link at hand. But didn't a study into prayer discover that it either had no effect, or either made patients do slightly worse due to complications?
Yes, because most people who Know it think the Don't need to have a healing mentality, and thus the Mocebo effect will happen, but sometimes it can have a placebo effect.
Basically it's like the "You are now breathing manually" thing. While underwater. In a cage. With sharks. That shoot lasers. Underwater.