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The conservatives are all up in arms about Obama's speech (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/04/obama.schools/index.html?iref=mpstoryview) to the school kids on Tuesday, saying he's trying to indoctrinate kids with his socialist agenda.

I'm so sick of this country.  I've really had it.  Up.  To.  Here.

If it were Bush, they'd be bending over backwards to keep the liberals and Dems from stomping around with pitchforks.  But let it be Obama... and a quote in there from someone saying she's scared for the way our country is right now.  I'll be she's not even half as scared as I am... her and her ilk are out to destroy the freedoms we all enjoy.

Obama wants to do a "stay in school" message with a lesson that DID have kids write letters saying what they could do to help the president but that's what set the idiots off in the first place.  The goal was to give the letters back to the kids later in the school year to see how they are meeting the goals they set.  I remember doing something like that when I was a kid and no one batted a freakin' eyelash!!

So the president's staff apologized, said it was the wrong thing for them to do (!?!?!), and now, it's just a letter with their goals for the school year.  But the damage is done.  The conservatives are crying ANTICHRIST, saying he's trying to push his socialist agenda, brainwash the kids in school, never should this ever be done, the president should not be allowed to speak to impressionable minds.

I HATE THIS COUNTRY... or more appropriate, I HATE THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.  I've had it.   :rant:

Quote from: "rlrose328"never should this ever be done, the president should not be allowed to speak to impressionable minds.

While I was apparently a bit too young to remember, both Regan and Bush Sr. gave similar speeches to the school children and both speeches were aired to schools across the nation.  It did not cause an uproar.  

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-Politica ... -addresses (http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m9d4-Video-Outrage-over-Obama-school-speech-was-missing-during-Bush-and-Reagan-school-addresses)

and
[youtube:ye8j2ykp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQheP7Bp-zc[/youtube:ye8j2ykp]

Btw, Regan's speech DID include a political message.

For anyone that wants to learn more about the intent of Obama's speech visit: http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html (http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html)

Yeah, this doesn't apply to all conservatives and republicans but their anti-intellectual attitude, their us vs. them and definition of bipartisanship is terribly skewed and they're destroying the country like this. I too have become incredibly fed up with republicans as a party. The few conservative friends I know are great people and they see the stupidity in what their party and their majority is doing but it's not enough. The republicans have no realistic leader at the moment, or at least none that i'm aware of that might get elected come 2012. Despite being the "moral" party the way they slander the president is wrong, regardless of if they like him or not and I think part of it for a lot of them is racism. Come on, birthers? Really? Guns at presidential events that have nothing to do with the 2nd amendment? SERIOUSLY? People are carrying signs speaking of the liberty tree and while it's incredibly unlikely a state is talking about secession,  I think the reason the republican party has become so counter productive to the country, like some sort of tumor or something is because the party is about to cease to exist as we know it. Not necessarily disappear but the republican party looks even more nuts every week.  Is it even realistic to think the party might make a comeback by 2012?  

I know I'm ranting now but it's even worse with their news. Has anyone ever tried watching Fox news for more than an hour without being filled with disgust? I know Keith Olberman is a douche through and through but compared to O'Reilly or Glenn Beck he's an angel. At least CNN and MSNBC don't blatantly doctor their news. I'm so sick of the right that I'm losing hope that this country will survive as we know it in the next 10 or 15 years because ever since I got to the south a year ago I've had several rocks thrown at me and been called terrible things dozens of times. Every time I've had a rock thrown at me there was a bush/cheney or McCain/palin sticker on the bumper followed by racial expletives, dirty hippie, socialist, god hater, you name it. The right has become so insane, illogical and for alot of them anti-logic has swept through them like a plague. Anytime one of them speaks out with a far more sane and reasonable voice, like Megan McCain she gets alienated by the party. It's nuts, they need more Megans to get all the crazies to shut up. I don't know what to say anymore, it's really hard to try to respect most of the right when they continue to say more blatantly backward things and demand more silliness.

Excuse the rant, i'm not a democrat btw, i'm an independent.

Meh, one extra reason to move out of the U.S. sometime after I turn 18.

I personaly think CNN is the only news network that is politicaly balanced. MSNBC is liberal junk, but Fox is even worse.

I remember the Reagan speeches.  They were awesome!  We got to watch television and write about the President and talk about his speech instead of doing classwork .  I sincerely doubt it impacted my political views at all.

I've read a couple of hundred comments on several articles about the Obama speech to be directed at America's youth.  People are comparing the idea to Hitler youth.  They are calling it brainwashing.  They are keeping their kids home from school.  They are claiming the speech will incite children to anti-conservative violence against schoolmates.  They are terrified that the speech will turn their children into socialists - or Nazis.  They are suggesting armed revolution!  They are asking why Obama is giving a speech instead of solving the health care crisis, the national debt, and the economic problems of the nation during the time he's taking to give the speech.

Are they completely out of their minds?  The suggested lesson to go with the speech doesn't include sleep deprivation, exposure to prolonged loud noises, dousings with icy water and withholding food.  That would be brainwashing instructions.  Instead it's suggestions such as writing a statement on "how you think you can help the President with the goal of keeping kids in school" and similar.  It's not mandatory.  It's not mandatory that the kids even watch it.

It's no more villainous than the Reagan speeches telling us to stay in school and stay off the weed.

Yes, they ARE completely out of their minds... COMPLETELY.  A few times I've mentioned this type of thing to my mom, she's like, "Well, what about what YOU PEOPLE did while BUSH was president?"

Well, I can tell you what we DIDN'T do... we didn't storm town hall meetings and disrupt their freedom of speech.  We didn't threaten lawsuits if he spoke to our children.  I KNOW we wouldn't have responded this way if the president just wanted to say "hey kids, school is important so leave off the drugs and stay in school."  We never threatened an armed evolution.  

We hated the president, yes.  We spoke out against policies.  We wrote songs and held sit-ins.

I'm nearly at the "just let them have the country until they destroy it" phase, even if I have to live in a hole somewhere else, at least I'll feel safe.  I sure as HELL don't feel safe in this country.  Not with the conservative religious whackos in this country.

Quote from: "rlrose328"I'm nearly at the "just let them have the country until they destroy it" phase, even if I have to live in a hole somewhere else, at least I'll feel safe.  I sure as HELL don't feel safe in this country.  Not with the conservative religious whackos in this country.

Don't leave now, the whining, bitching, and screaming are signs that stuff is happening.  If the neo-cons didn't think the winds of change were picking up they'd be quiet as mice.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "rlrose328"I'm nearly at the "just let them have the country until they destroy it" phase, even if I have to live in a hole somewhere else, at least I'll feel safe.  I sure as HELL don't feel safe in this country.  Not with the conservative religious whackos in this country.

Don't leave now, the whining, bitching, and screaming are signs that stuff is happening.  If the neo-cons didn't think the winds of change were picking up they'd be quiet as mice.

This is true, I'm considering GTFO as well however the nutjobs are loud for a reason.

Also, someone mentioned that MSNBC is just liberal junk, while they are definitely biased to the left do they doctor news or anything of the sort? Sure , the recommended dose is a healthy side of CNN and your own research but i've yet to find MSNBC do nothing but tell the truth. Keith is a douchenozzle but he seems to know what to say and what no to say opposed to his O'Reilly counterpart. I've never heard any reviews of the channel except from neo-cons who think Fox news is the best station so anyone want to offered a somewhat detailed analysis of MSNBC?

I think that perhaps one of the funniest things about this whole issue (or, perhaps the most illuminating of these peoples ignorance) is the fact that the public school system in the United States is a socialist system (as are our public highways, our water treatment plants and distribution, etc.).


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Might this thread have a bit of a left-leaning tinge to it?  I would have an issue with my child being taught what morality is and that altruism is a virtue by the President, and I would think that those of the political left would have a problem with their children being taught political messages from President Reagan.  As to Obama indoctrinating kids, I think this video says everything that I'd want to say.

[youtube:1mbw9dak]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGrp5MbzAI[/youtube:1mbw9dak]

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I would have an issue with my child being taught what morality is and that altruism is a virtue by the President, and I would think that those of the political left would have a problem with their children being taught political messages from President Reagan.

Yeah, but that's not AT ALL what happened.  It was basically, "Rah rah, try hard, do well in school kids.  Work hard."   And yet, people got all apoplectic.  Give me a break.  Talk about the hypocrisy.  

In fact, I watched Reagan's 1988 speech to kids this morning on C-SPAN, and he was VERY political.  I also watched George HW Bushs speech to children in 1991.  Obamas speech today was nothing.  He was stepping up in support of teachers, and trying motivate kids to do well.  It's not unprecedented, and it was not some attempt "to spread his socialist agenda."  Seriously.  The stupid... It burns!

These conservative right wing people just hate the president, and it doesn't matter what he does.  It's a witch burning mentality, and they lose all credibility.  As for your video, be mad at the silly teachers who organized it, don't pretend this is some ploy by the administration.

Quote from: "iNow"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I would have an issue with my child being taught what morality is and that altruism is a virtue by the President, and I would think that those of the political left would have a problem with their children being taught political messages from President Reagan.

Yeah, but that's not AT ALL what happened.  It was basically, "Rah rah, try hard, do well in school kids.  Work hard."   And yet, people got all apoplectic.  Give me a break.  Talk about the hypocrisy.  

In fact, I watched Reagan's 1988 speech to kids this morning on C-SPAN, and he was VERY political.  I also watched George HW Bushs speech to children in 1991.  Obamas speech today was nothing.  He was stepping up in support of teachers, and trying motivate kids to do well.  It's not unprecedented, and it was not some attempt "to spread his socialist agenda."  Seriously.  The stupid... It burns!

These conservative right wing people just hate the president, and it doesn't matter what he does.  It's a witch burning mentality, and they lose all credibility.  As for your video, be mad at the silly teachers who organized it, don't pretend this is some ploy by the administration.

First of all, didn't I say that Liberals should have raised issues with Reagan's speech?  And the biggest problem came from the stuff in the lesson plan that was to lead up to the speech.  It's the same old argument from authority / poisoning the well that always happens.  Sometimes 'right-wing' wackos talk out there ass.  So when they have a legitimate criticism (like now) any media outlet that is left-leaning will attempt to discredit them by calling them 'right-wing' wackos (The same thing happens on the other side.)  You need to look at each issue individually, and not get suckered in by any kind of heuristic that thinks that there are only two positions on an issue, or that one side is more reasonable than the other.  And on this issue, the 'right-wing' was justified.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"First of all, didn't I say that Liberals should have raised issues with Reagan's speech?  And the biggest problem came from the stuff in the lesson plan that was to lead up to the speech.  It's the same old argument from authority / poisoning the well that always happens.  Sometimes 'right-wing' wackos talk out there ass.  So when they have a legitimate criticism (like now) any media outlet that is left-leaning will attempt to discredit them by calling them 'right-wing' wackos (The same thing happens on the other side.)  You need to look at each issue individually, and not get suckered in by any kind of heuristic that thinks that there are only two positions on an issue, or that one side is more reasonable than the other.  And on this issue, the 'right-wing' was justified.

They attacked a speech with no political agenda for having a political agenda, by saying that it encouraged socialism and was used to further the 'Obamacare' plans, when it made no references to healthcare. Personally I wouldn't agree that having the president telling kids what to do is a good idea (I'm from the UK, guess it's just a different mentality here as no one would ever dare listen to Gordon Brown), but instead of basing their claims in rational reasoning they've jumped on the socialist and hitler-youth bandwagon. That's not justified or constructive, all they're doing by jumping on that bandwagon is drowning out the rational people who can make their point without arguments from adverse consequences.

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)  So I must be one of those 'they.'  If you're going to judge any position by its representation on television media (especially in the US), then your view of political debates will be that of the KKK and "The Moral Majority" vs. unemployed hippies and Code Pink.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)  So I must be one of those 'they.'  If you're going to judge any position by its representation on television media (especially in the US), then your view of political debates will be that of the KKK and "The Moral Majority" vs. unemployed hippies and Code Pink.

I was talking about Fox and the people who rallied against this because it was encouraging a 'hitler-youth'. I agree with you, I personally don't like Obama's stances on a lot of issues, and don't think that any political leader should be allowed to make statements to those in school. But the point is that although there is a rational debate to be had about whether it is correct for a political leader to make statements to kids, it's not going to take place, because the zealous right wingers have taken it upon themselves to drown out any hope of a rational debate. And instead scream and shout about socialism and hitler youth, this is like the health care debate instead of:

Hmm, I can see that there could be a problem with this part of your idea, how do think we can improve it?

The US public got:

OMFG, you socialist nazi! Obamacare is only going to fund abortions and turn you all into homosexuals!

OK, I may have put a little more extreme emphasis on that last sentence but it's similar. Instead of discussing the issues all the public is hearing about is some nuts who think that Obama want's to turn kids into the Hitler-youth, so there is no chance for any kind of rational debate over the subject.

Quote from: "iNow"I think that perhaps one of the funniest things about this whole issue (or, perhaps the most illuminating of these peoples ignorance) is the fact that the public school system in the United States is a socialist system (as are our public highways, our water treatment plants and distribution, etc.).

I was thinking that, myself.

People. Are. Stupid.

I'm actually so annoyed at conservatives getting angry at a "stay in school" speech that I can't even form a coherent thought. I'm actually pissed off. What's wrong with valuing education? Why would anyone--anyone--be upset over that message? What this is is a matter of the republicans and right wingers whining from the back seat now that they're not driving the car any longer. The ignorance is palpable. I honestly just want to roll up some newspaper, hit them on their noses, and say, "NO! BAD CONSERVATIVE! BAD!"

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)  So I must be one of those 'they.'  If you're going to judge any position by its representation on television media (especially in the US), then your view of political debates will be that of the KKK and "The Moral Majority" vs. unemployed hippies and Code Pink.

I was talking about Fox and the people who rallied against this because it was encouraging a 'hitler-youth'. I agree with you, I personally don't like Obama's stances on a lot of issues, and don't think that any political leader should be allowed to make statements to those in school. But the point is that although there is a rational debate to be had about whether it is correct for a political leader to make statements to kids, it's not going to take place, because the zealous right wingers have taken it upon themselves to drown out any hope of a rational debate. And instead scream and shout about socialism and hitler youth, this is like the health care debate instead of:

Hmm, I can see that there could be a problem with this part of your idea, how do think we can improve it?

The US public got:

OMFG, you socialist nazi! Obamacare is only going to fund abortions and turn you all into homosexuals!

OK, I may have put a little more extreme emphasis on that last sentence but it's similar. Instead of discussing the issues all the public is hearing about is some nuts who think that Obama want's to turn kids into the Hitler-youth, so there is no chance for any kind of rational debate over the subject.

No! NO! NO!  I've been to some of those anti-Obamacare rallies.  There are some nut jobs there, but there are also many rational people with well thought out opinions.  The thing is though, that you never see that from any TV news source outside of Fox.  Yes there are wackos on Fox, and there are wackos on the right in general, but any media sources on the left over-play their numbers and pretend that THEY are the mainstream right.  It's an ad hominem!  Here are two interviews of Peter Schiff to demonstrate what I mean.

[youtube:3mpwedj7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er8llKAbjwQ[/youtube:3mpwedj7]

[youtube:3mpwedj7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJxkFVoYp5o[/youtube:3mpwedj7]

The left attacks Fox News so strongly because they don't want people watching it at all.  Because in order to get an accurate view of reality you need to pull your information from a variety of sources and then think about them critically, and the only way to keep intelligent people indoctrinated is to keep them ignorant of valid differing opinions.  I'm not a Fox News loyalist, but within the secular community I meet a lot more left-wing indoctrinated people than I do right-wing.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"You need to look at each issue individually, and not get suckered in by any kind of heuristic that thinks that there are only two positions on an issue, or that one side is more reasonable than the other.

I did look at this issue individually, and I did not get suckered into any sort of heuristic where only two positions from which to choose were available.  Thanks, though.

I found the intensity of the reaction unfounded and silly.  The classroom exercises were optional, and they were not even written/created by the administration.  They were written BY teachers FOR teachers.  The speech itself had zero political message, and Obama is not the first president to go into a classroom.  On every single front the people who were enraged by this are wrong and misguided.  It's that simple.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology...

Again, Andrew... That is simply not what happened.  Obama taught these children no such thing, so your assertions are without merit.  I seriously doubt that anybody here disagrees with you that Obama and other government officials should avoid sharing their politics with school children.  That's not what this issue is about, however, so that's one great big red herring coming from you.  Obama did not teach children his political ideology, unless perhaps you are equating the values of effort, hard work, and responsibility with a political ideology or agenda.


If you don't believe me, then watch it for yourself:

[youtube:3qbm9rls]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZZ6GrzWkw0[/youtube:3qbm9rls]



Btw... all of the talk above about Fox news and healthcare are also red herrings which have zero to do with the topic at hand.

This speech is squeaky clean, and I never criticized the speech (obviously the criticism came before he gave it.)  I criticizes the lesson plan.  Unfortunately, Now that I've located the pdfs of the lesson plans online, only the altered ones that were made AFTER the criticism are available.  Now it's all about personal responsibility (Which is fine) but before it had hints of altruism as morality.  Here's the links to the new pdf lesson planspreK grade school (http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/prek-6.pdf) / junior high and highschool (http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/7-12.pdf).  I'm going to try and find the older versions to show you what I mean.

Re: The lesson plan... Written BY teachers FOR teachers.  Further, they were optional.  Case closed.

Quote from: "iNow"Re: The lesson plan... Written BY teachers FOR teachers.  Further, they were optional.  Case closed.

First, since when does written by teachers for teachers mean anything?  Secondly, is it the parents or the students making the choice of whether to use them or not?  No?  then how does that matter?

Let me be clear on this, because unless you read my comments from the first page through this might not be clear.  I'm saying that the wording of the original lesson plan for pre-K and gradeshool children had some questionable content (only to those of a different political ideology than Obama.)  Worries about the speech that they were to relate to arose.  The white house said they would post the text of the speech a few days later (giving them time to make any changes to address those concerns) and the text of the lesson plan was also changed.  The resulting speech is not offending, nor is the lesson plan.  The white house responded rationally to a legitimate concern.  Now the right-wing story is that this was a narrowly averted socialist propaganda ploy, and the left-wing story is that the right-wing is overreacting.  Being in agreement with the initial response that some of the questions from the initial lesson plan were objectionable, I am in agreement with the right on this issue, that it was good that they spoke up about this.

EDIT-
Woops.  It's not so clear that's what I meant.  Sorry.  I was simultaneously having this discussion (http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=92113) on RichardDawkins.net and got the two threads confused.

I understand, but I still content that the ferocity of the response did not scale to the issue itself.  It's as if you're child spilled her milk so you decided to shoot her in the face.  The punishment doesn't fit the crime.  I have zero qualms with people expressing criticisms and trying to improve things.  What I am getting tired of is this consistent overreaction to every little thing (Obama is a secret muslim, he's not a US citizen, he's a nazi, he's a socialist, he's a marxist, he's a communist, he's a hypnotist, he's gonna kill grandma, he's some other random brain dropping from an ignorant mind...).  

At some point, we as a community... regardless of our political leanings, our ideologies, our theistic persuasions, etc.)... have to stand up collectively and say, "Enough is enough, and what you people are doing is stupid and ignorant and helps none of us.  Now, start acting like an adult, use your inside voice, try to use valid logic and solid premises, and articulate why this is a problem and how we can do it better.  Throwing feces on each other simply ain't gonna get it done."  

This behavior should be shunned, because the valid criticisms are getting lost in the noise, and mature discussion seems to have died and long been forgotten.

I agree, but the over-reaction has not been one sided here.  Because the left was so ready to dismiss the right's contentions as fear-mongering it lead to a political propaganda arms race (as happens with so many issues these days.)  To say that the right is at fault for blowing this out of proportion is fallacious.  The entire media lives on sensationalism.  So everybody benefits (in the political punditry arena) from blowing things out of proportion.  This hype is made up, which polarizes and keeps people from seeing what the real issue is about, which is why when I say that I agree with the right on this issue, that it's such an inflammatory comment, when it really shouldn't be.

My class watched the speach today in school. I thought it was actualy somewhat interesting (average for Obama, fantastic if you compare it to the speaches Dublya gave). However, I don't think that he really understands how trivial the things we learn in school are. Just to give an example, in science last year one of the things we did is we had to study the anonomy of a bunch of different animals (and later take a test on them), and then we would disect them. Now really, just how often do you actualy need to know the different internal part of a squid? I also took algebra last year, which was very frusterating. Not because it was difficult, but because we were assigned such a large amount of work. I remember questioning how often I would need to use the types of equations we were learning, when it would be easy just to solve real world problems through problem-solving without special equations. I mean, sure if your going to become an economist or something like that, your going to want to learn algebra (I suggest it be a high-school or college level course), but why put us through litteraly hundreds of hours of work just to learn something we'll likely forget in a few years? Just to give an example, my dad is a mechanical engeneer, which is pretty darn mathy as far as jobs go, and even he says he's forgoten nearly everything he learned in calculus (ditto with my new geomotry teacher). My mom does taxes part time, and she really doesn't need to use the algebra she learned in school. It's very frusterating to see so much of school based around rote memerization, when a lot of the time the material is nearly useless in the real world.

My two cents... I posted a blog today that reads;

QuoteJust because our president speaks directly to children does not mean he is trying to force his political views on them. He is their president! You call him a socialist for telling our children to stay in school?!

You think our president is setting up a death clause in his health care program? Even after this is debunked, the Right Wing media continues to tout this. Fox and others are using their ignorant and god fearing public to do the bidding of the corporations. People are sick! People are dieing! Pro-Life? How about some freaking health care for the poor!

All you are doing is alienating the Republican party further and further from the rest of America. Anyone with any sense would see through your lies. It doesn't matter how loud you scream it or how often, it is still a lie.

I support Texas succeeding from the Union. The Red States do not represent the opinions of most Americans and are holding us back from moving forward, growing, and getting back on our feet.

I am starting to think that if Obama said "I think murder is wrong.", that the Republicans would scream and yell that he has some ulterior motive. Just because he's a Democrat, or perhaps because he is black, you have to disagree with him.

You make me sick.

I think you meant that you support Texas seceding.  

Quote from: "iNow"I think you meant that you support Texas seceding.   :hmm:

Should I feel bad if I want Texas to secede to? If that actually happened, I would imagine the repubs wouldn't be winning any elections any time soon. Ironically Texas is slowly turning into a blue state.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Should I feel bad if I want Texas to secede to? If that actually happened, I would imagine the repubs wouldn't be winning any elections any time soon. Ironically Texas is slowly turning into a blue state.

Naw, they're going libertarian.  That way they get sex, drugs AND money.  

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

Quote from: "skurry"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

Dude, either read the whole 6 posts I made over the past two pages or don't bother.  Taking one post out of context and assuming that I hate education is kind of lame.

Quote from: "Reginus"My class watched the speach today in school. I thought it was actualy somewhat interesting (average for Obama, fantastic if you compare it to the speaches Dublya gave). However, I don't think that he really understands how trivial the things we learn in school are. Just to give an example, in science last year one of the things we did is we had to study the anonomy of a bunch of different animals (and later take a test on them), and then we would disect them. Now really, just how often do you actualy need to know the different internal part of a squid? I also took algebra last year, which was very frusterating. Not because it was difficult, but because we were assigned such a large amount of work. I remember questioning how often I would need to use the types of equations we were learning, when it would be easy just to solve real world problems through problem-solving without special equations. I mean, sure if your going to become an economist or something like that, your going to want to learn algebra (I suggest it be a high-school or college level course), but why put us through litteraly hundreds of hours of work just to learn something we'll likely forget in a few years? Just to give an example, my dad is a mechanical engeneer, which is pretty darn mathy as far as jobs go, and even he says he's forgoten nearly everything he learned in calculus (ditto with my new geomotry teacher). My mom does taxes part time, and she really doesn't need to use the algebra she learned in school. It's very frusterating to see so much of school based around rote memerization, when a lot of the time the material is nearly useless in the real world.

Welcome to education! It's not really about what you learn, it's about demonstrating that you can learn it. And if they took algebra out of school how would any of the kids know if they wanted to do it later on? Algebra is very important in some jobs. But the general idea is that if you can successfully show that you can learn something, that an employer is more likely to think highly of you, not because of what you can do but because of what they can teach you to do. It doesn't really matter if you're learning irrelevant things, the fact is learning those irrelevant things is what is going to get you a decent job.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "skurry"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

Dude, either read the whole 6 posts I made over the past two pages or don't bother.  Taking one post out of context and assuming that I hate education is kind of lame.

Andrew,

Can you please explain how that was out of context?  You typed those words.  Your assertion was plainly false.  When asked to support your assertion, you backed down.  You said you agreed with the right on this issue because of something in the teacher's aids and suggested classroom activities.  When informed that those activities were not created by the administration, and informed that those activities were suggested only (read: NOT REQUIRED), you still didn't bother supporting your position with anything relevant.

Also, who said anything about you "hating education?"  Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?


Seriously, what precisely do you think was "taken out of context?"  I'm just not seeing it.  All you've done is accuse Obama of sharing his political ideology with children (which he did not do) and say that you agree with the right that the materials were inappropriate (without supporting why).  I'd say Skurry was a bit too nice to you, and gave you far too much credit, but that's just me.

He was implying that I thought that Obama's speech was propaganda.  I never made that claim.  I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades chool lesson plan.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"He was implying that I thought that Obama's speech was propaganda.  I never made that claim.

Okay, I must be daft, as I'm still not seeing it.  All he did was quote you and respond.  He didn't imply anything whatsoever.  He did not suggest you thought Obama's speech was propaganda... Your own post did.

Here... This is what you said:

QuoteI don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.  

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades chool lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.  I presume you are continuing to struggle separating your contributions to RD.net from your contributions here at HAF.

Quote from: "iNow"Here... This is what you said:

QuoteI don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.   :brick:

Quote from: "iNow"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades school lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.

I explained that I was no longer able to find the original lesson plan online, as they have changed it to the new plan at the source I originally saw it at.  I spent 10 minutes looking for it and then gave up because it didn't seem like it was that important.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "iNow"Here... This is what you said:

QuoteI don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.   :evil:
So, explain to me this, then... Since you conceded yourself that the speech was not indoctrinating, and you've conceded yourself that the speech was not propaganda, why would you bother spending time to post here that you "don't want Obama indoctrinating children?"  If you know that none of what he was doing had anything whatsoever to do with indoctrination, why make the statement at all?

It's so nonsequitur as to be somewhat painful.  It's as if Obama was going to tell kids that he enjoys playing sports to relax, and you reply to such a statement saying that you don't think our president should be sharing his political ideology with children.  When others point out to you that his comment has zero to do with political ideologies, you respond saying you know, you were just saying that you don't think the president should share his political ideology with kids.  Seriously, WTF?  Methinks you've been watching the Faux News for far too long...

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "iNow"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades school lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.

I explained that I was no longer able to find the original lesson plan online, as they have changed it to the new plan at the source I originally saw it at.  I spent 10 minutes looking for it and then gave up because it didn't seem like it was that important.

Yes, but you're obviously very passionate and upset about those lesson plans.  Can you not articulate in your own words why you had a problem with them?  I mean, this really shouldn't be so hard considering the energy underlying your expressed disagreement.

I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

I can see where you're coming from, I think you're worried that kids would be inclined to trust their government a bit more. My question is why is that so bad? Trusting someone and blindly listening to them without questions are two different things. this strong distrust is tearing the country apart, it's only going to get worse considering that Obama isn't even a liberal. He is a very moderate centrist. If you think Obama is a liberal in the least bit then you are just that far to the right to see that he is centrist and you have to step out of your bias for a moment and look at it. I know for a fact that i'm very far left however I step out of my bias to look at two different views and it's clear Obama is a centrist even though a lot of people I know who are as liberal as I look at Obama as a conservative when that isn't really the case. Also, no disrespect but as it was said above, You may be watching too much Fox news. Make sure to mix it up dude. I think Fox news is a load of crock but I watch FOX, MSNBC, CNN and I browse various different websites to try to build a broader view so I don't alienate the other half of the country as if they were foreigners or something.

I couldn't go into details regarding the why without this becoming a philosophical discussion.

My media sources include:

Video
Fox
ABC
YouTube

Audio
Skeptoid
The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe
Stuff You Should Know
This American Life
PRI's To The Best of Our Knowledge

Written
The Interwebz
Lots of freaking books (not normal books, but the freaken kind.)

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president

Interesting how you've truncated the actual question, which asked students how they "can help the president to achieve his goal of getting more students to graduate."  Fascinating.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

A question which "implied" that altruism is a moral virtue?  A question which you cannot even cite?  Give me a break.  What is wrong with encouraging altruistic behavior? That's what all of the outrage was over?  Pull-eez.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

I'm assuming you are a theist of some sort as I've seen very few atheists against altruism.  You keep suggesting altruism is bad.  Altruism is a subset of empathy.  Empathy (not the Bible or the Koran) is the origin of morality.  Altruism is a good thing for our species.  It's basically helping your fellow man.  I don't see why people are so against thinking of how their actions might impact others.  

I'm just a godless heathen but I think that it's important to teach children to be conscious of others.  It's important to teach them empathy and love of their fellow man.  It's a shame that much current religious teachings are against empathy, altruism, and love of fellow man.  I think it's the basic fear that if human beings are loving toward each other and help each other in difficult times they'll find hope without needing a belief in God.  When people are kept without much possibility of love, acceptance, and hope in this life the only thing many can do is fantasize about an afterlife where things are just, life is wonderful for good people.  

It just wouldn't do for people to give of themselves in the here and now.  We've seen it in effect in other countries - people become healthier and happier and they turn away from religion.

I don't see any changes in the lesson plans that are online.  Just like the health care reform paperwork didn't change to get rid of a section on death panels once the neo-cons got freaked, the lesson plans didn't change.  Or was there some subliminal message in the "originals" perhaps in white letters on white?

You had an impression of what the lesson plans included and upon re-examination of the plans their wording doesn't match your impression.  It happens to everyone.  You get all emotional about something and words take on different meanings.  Then you paraphrase them in your memory, tinged with those emotions.  Later, when you are cool headed, you no longer interpret the words the same way.  The words haven't changed, you have.

Quote from: "iNow"Interesting how you've truncated the actual question, which asked students how they "can help the president to achieve his goal of getting more students to graduate."  Fascinating.

So you have a link to the document?  Would you share it?  because that's the whole reason that...

Quote from: "iNow"A question which you cannot even cite?

That is true.  But I've already said that, yet you feel the need to make me appear like I'm being deceptive even though you are the one who specifically asked me to give my reasoning even if I could not directly site the lesson plan!

Quote from: "iNow"What is wrong with encouraging altruistic behavior?

Look under my my Avatar picture.  It says "Objectivist.'  Do you know what that means?  If you did you wouldn't need to ask that.  The fact that you seem bent on using manipulative word play to discredit me, makes me think that you're missing the 'happy' part of "Happy Atheist."

* pulls on collar*

I'm sensing some abrasiveness and anger in here.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I'm assuming you are a theist of some sort as I've seen very few atheists against altruism.  You keep suggesting altruism is bad.  Altruism is a subset of empathy.  Empathy (not the Bible or the Koran) is the origin of morality.  Altruism is a good thing for our species.  It's basically helping your fellow man.  I don't see why people are so against thinking of how their actions might impact others.

No, I'm an Objectivist.  We are Atheists who found morality in the individual pursuit of happiness, and ethics based on the principles of self-ownership and the preservation of individual rights.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't see any changes in the lesson plans that are online.  Just like the health care reform paperwork didn't change to get rid of a section on death panels once the neo-cons got freaked, the lesson plans didn't change.  Or was there some subliminal message in the "originals" perhaps in white letters on white?

You had an impression of what the lesson plans included and upon re-examination of the plans their wording doesn't match your impression.  It happens to everyone.  You get all emotional about something and words take on different meanings.  Then you paraphrase them in your memory, tinged with those emotions.  Later, when you are cool headed, you no longer interpret the words the same way.  The words haven't changed, you have.

http://www.kxmb.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=432647 (http://www.kxmb.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=432647)

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Might this thread have a bit of a left-leaning tinge to it?  I would have an issue with my child being taught what morality is and that altruism is a virtue by the President, and I would think that those of the political left would have a problem with their children being taught political messages from President Reagan.  As to Obama indoctrinating kids, I think this video says everything that I'd want to say.

(youtube video deleted)

The message of the video was "stay in school, work hard, etc." support, not socialist indoctrination.  Perhaps this thread is a little left leaning... it's certainly not "KILL THE PRESIDENT" leaning, like most of the conservative/Republican sites I've visited.  I don't remember ever ONCE staying that Bush deserved to die or support any disruptive activites at townhall meetings, not personally nor the hundreds of people that I know.  The phenomenon right now is that the conservatives/Repubs hate Obama because of who and what he is AND who and what he isn't.  He could do everything they want him to do and they'd still hate him because he's Obama and not XXX (R).

And that video was not about produced by Obama or his camp.  If you think that is about him directly indoctrinating kids, then you aren't paying attention.  I remember the Reagan speech.  I voted for Reagan for goodness sake.  His speech was VERY political, but back then, that was okay.  The country wasn't nearly as politicized as it is now, not nearly as divided.  

There were people who kept their kids out of school because of the speech and I find that very sad.  They're teaching their kids a very dangerous lesson.

[youtube:3cs7an5b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB-irpkAxK8[/youtube:3cs7an5b]

Skip to 3:50.

[/thread]

Here is a thought... they (the christian conservatives and republicans and those that overlap) get all up in arms with the Democrat (and not even a liberal Dem at that) giving a rah rah speech to school kids, calling it socialist, but think nothing of forcing their Christian religion on the kids with organized prayer and bible study.  Or organizing an off-grounds ministry during the school day and asking that the school suspend any formal learning activities while the kids are at said ministry.

There's just something wrong with this country... SERIOUSLY wrong.  I'm not saying people don't have the right to worship their chosen deity... not at all.  Never said that, never will.  But they do NOT have the right to special treatment BECAUSE they worship a god and they shouldn't have the right to make laws based on their chosen god's book of mythology.

And I don't see anything wrong with the leader of the free world telling the kids in his own country that staying in school, setting goals, and not doing drugs is a bad thing.  I will NEVER think that.  WERE he to talk about the health care issues or the war, I'd have a problem... but he wasn't.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"...even though you are the one who specifically asked me to give my reasoning even if I could not directly site the lesson plan!

Which, oddly enough, you still have not done.

Maybe I should remind you of how you started this thread.

Quote from: "rlrose328"If it were Bush, they'd be bending over backwards to keep the liberals and Dems from stomping around with pitchforks.  But let it be Obama... and a quote in there from someone saying she's scared for the way our country is right now.  I'll be she's not even half as scared as I am... her and her ilk are out to destroy the freedoms we all enjoy.

Quote from: "iNow"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"...even though you are the one who specifically asked me to give my reasoning even if I could not directly site the lesson plan!

Which, oddly enough, you still have not done.

Like I said.  Look up Objectivism.  See how we feel about altruism, and you'll understand.

Now you're just being a troll.

HEre is the original lesson plan, which took me just 3 minutes to find.

Original Obama Speech Lesson Plan (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009)

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Maybe I should remind you of how you started this thread.

Quote from: "rlrose328"If it were Bush, they'd be bending over backwards to keep the liberals and Dems from stomping around with pitchforks.  But let it be Obama... and a quote in there from someone saying she's scared for the way our country is right now.  I'll be she's not even half as scared as I am... her and her ilk are out to destroy the freedoms we all enjoy.

And your point is?

Quote from: "rlrose328"HEre is the original lesson plan, which took me just 3 minutes to find.

Original Obama Speech Lesson Plan (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009)

Thank you.  These are the lines I took issue with:

- "Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president." (And that is the end of the sentence.
- "Interview and share their goals with one another to create a supportive community."

Quote from: "rlrose328"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Maybe I should remind you of how you started this thread.

Quote from: "rlrose328"If it were Bush, they'd be bending over backwards to keep the liberals and Dems from stomping around with pitchforks.  But let it be Obama... and a quote in there from someone saying she's scared for the way our country is right now.  I'll be she's not even half as scared as I am... her and her ilk are out to destroy the freedoms we all enjoy.

And your point is?

That you need to get over your false dichotomy.  Not all "right-leaning" or even conservative people are religious.  And since when is a parent deciding what their child should and should not be exposed to and *SHOCK* disagreeing with the president an infringement on your rights?  Get over yourself.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "rlrose328"HEre is the original lesson plan, which took me just 3 minutes to find.

Original Obama Speech Lesson Plan (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009)

Thank you.  These are the lines I took issue with:

- "Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president." (And that is the end of the sentence.
- "Interview and share their goals with one another to create a supportive community."

Honestly... I do not understand WHY you have a problem with that.  Honestly, I don't.  I'm not socialist.  I'm not libertarian.  I'm an independent leaning Democrat.  Every one of us should be helping the president in some fashion... researching our issues with policy or supporting those policies with which we agree, contacting our congressmen when we have an issue with something being discussed at that level, reforming laws that violate the constitution, etc.  Those are not socialist ideals.  They are democratic.  Regardless, kids should be encouraged to become involved with their society.  For the youngest grades, it's the school.  For the middle grades, it's the local community.  For HSers, it's the state and country.

And interviewing and sharing their golas with one anotehr to create a supportive community?  Why on earth do you or ANYONE have a problem with that?  It makes no sense to me.  Should we be encouraging children to think only of themselves and ignore the community at large when it takes an entire community to make a successful society?

I'm baffled.

Quote from: "rlrose328"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "rlrose328"HEre is the original lesson plan, which took me just 3 minutes to find.

Original Obama Speech Lesson Plan (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009)

Thank you.  These are the lines I took issue with:

- "Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president." (And that is the end of the sentence.
- "Interview and share their goals with one another to create a supportive community."

Honestly... I do not understand WHY you have a problem with that.  Honestly, I don't.  I'm not socialist.  I'm not libertarian.  I'm an independent leaning Democrat.  Every one of us should be helping the president in some fashion... researching our issues with policy or supporting those policies with which we agree, contacting our congressmen when we have an issue with something being discussed at that level, reforming laws that violate the constitution, etc.  Those are not socialist ideals.  They are democratic.  Regardless, kids should be encouraged to become involved with their society.  For the youngest grades, it's the school.  For the middle grades, it's the local community.  For HSers, it's the state and country.

And interviewing and sharing their golas with one anotehr to create a supportive community?  Why on earth do you or ANYONE have a problem with that?  It makes no sense to me.  Should we be encouraging children to think only of themselves and ignore the community at large when it takes an entire community to make a successful society?

I'm baffled.

I was stating (As I have been, consistently throughout) that when seeing that lesson plan, that parents had a right to want to see the text of the speech before having their child hear it.  I am also saying that the first line there smacks of nationalism, while the second is fairly clearly (in my mind) progressive community based language.  The implications not being that the lesson plan on it's own may have been bad, but that it could be an indication of what the speech would be.  So parents demanded to see transcript first, the white house took a few days (maybe to ensure that the speech wouldn't offend anyone's views or ideologies) and the resulting Presidential address to our kids was very inspiring and well done.  The problem is that the media sensationalized it (as it always does) and you bought it hook line and sinker, that anyone who wanted to see the text of the speech first must be a right-wing wacko out to destroy your freedom.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "rlrose328"And your point is?

That you need to get over your false dichotomy.  Not all "right-leaning" or even conservative people are religious.  And since when is a parent deciding what their child should and should not be exposed to and *SHOCK* disagreeing with the president an infringement on your rights?  Get over yourself.

I don't see a false dichotomy there.  When I disagreed outloud with anything Bush did or said, I was accused of being unAmerican, a non-patriot.  I've watched while the religious, the right, the conservatives, and all overlapping labels curtail the rights of those I love, and if I speak out, I'm the one being intolerant of their beliefs.  It is the right-leaning groups in this country who wish to suppress any freedoms we have in the name of safety and morality and propriety, which I see it as destroying the underlying reason country was founded in the first place.

I don't recall saying anything about anyone disagreeing with the president as being an infringement of my rights.  You are reading something into my words that just isn't there.

Andrew, you're accusing rlrose of things he never said, you he has constantly made the separation of the religious right and conservative. Regardless of the fact that they are not the same it doesn't matter much because they share near identical political views save for probably separation of church and state and a couple of other things.

Get this.  I didn't like Bush either.  And that whole unpatriotic thing?  Your telling me you didn't see the BS that liberal media outlets pulled during the health care debacle, calling anti-reformers "unpatriotic." And guess what, this:

QuoteIt is the right-leaning groups in this country who wish to suppress any freedoms we have in the name of safety and morality and propriety, which I see it as destroying the underlying reason country was founded in the first place.

... is exactly what indoctrinated right-wingers think, just replace the word right with the word left.

QuoteI don't recall saying anything about anyone disagreeing with the president as being an infringement of my rights.  You are reading something into my words that just isn't there.

Then I misunderstood your initial rant (your words) that started this thread.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Andrew, you're accusing rlrose of things he never said, you he has constantly made the separation of the religious right and conservative. Regardless of the fact that they are not the same it doesn't matter much because they share near identical political views save for probably separation of church and state and a couple of other things.

If you really believe that then I encourage you to check out this site http://www.secularconservative.net/

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I was stating (As I have been, consistently throughout) that when seeing that lesson plan, that parents had a right to want to see the text of the speech before having their child hear it. I am also saying that the first line there smacks of nationalism, while the second is fairly clearly (in my mind) progressive community based language.  The implications not being that the lesson plan on it's own may have been bad, but that it could be an indication of what the speech would be.  So parents demanded to see transcript first, the white house took a few days (maybe to ensure that the speech wouldn't offend anyone's views or ideologies) and the resulting Presidential address to our kids was very inspiring and well done.  The problem is that the media sensationalized it (as it always does) and you bought it hook line and sinker, that anyone who wanted to see the text of the speech first must be a right-wing wacko out to destroy your freedom.

Parent's wanting to see the text didn't make me think that my freedoms were being destroyed.  Just stop being so sensationalistic.  MY POINT IS THAT THEY ARE OVER-REACTING TO WHAT THEY HEARD IN THE MEDIA PRIOR TO THIS EVENT THAT MADE THEM GO BALLISTIC ABOUT OBAMA EVEN SPEAKING TO THEIR CHILDREN, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY, coupled with the fact that no matter how many times they were reassured that he wasn't mentioning anything political, they still did not want him to speak to their kids and that so many parents threatened to pull their children from school JUST BECAUSE Obama was speaking to them.  

THAT is my point.  Not that their need to see the text threatens me.  More power to them for wanting to know what was being said.  Forgive me for putting a modicum of trust in the President to not do a political speech to kids.  I never once thought to question his motivation because I know it would be really stupid of him to speak politically to kids, and he's not stupid.  As a parent, I'm embarrassed if nothing else that the people of this country are so distrusting of this president when he did nothing more than be elected after Bush.  That is ONLY MY OPINION so don't go crediting all liberals, democrats, or atheists with that feeling.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"Andrew, you're accusing rlrose of things he never said

She.  

Just as an observation which is somewhat on-topic, I am seeing a lot of parallels between the population who is railing against Obama's speech to children this week and the population who rails against teachers "exposing" their children to evolution.

I now return you to the session of troll feeding which has been taking place.    

Quote from: "rlrose328"

Quote from: "andrewclunn"I was stating (As I have been, consistently throughout) that when seeing that lesson plan, that parents had a right to want to see the text of the speech before having their child hear it. I am also saying that the first line there smacks of nationalism, while the second is fairly clearly (in my mind) progressive community based language.  The implications not being that the lesson plan on it's own may have been bad, but that it could be an indication of what the speech would be.  So parents demanded to see transcript first, the white house took a few days (maybe to ensure that the speech wouldn't offend anyone's views or ideologies) and the resulting Presidential address to our kids was very inspiring and well done.  The problem is that the media sensationalized it (as it always does) and you bought it hook line and sinker, that anyone who wanted to see the text of the speech first must be a right-wing wacko out to destroy your freedom.

Parent's wanting to see the text didn't make me think that my freedoms were being destroyed.  Just stop being so sensationalistic.  MY POINT IS THAT THEY ARE OVER-REACTING TO WHAT THEY HEARD IN THE MEDIA PRIOR TO THIS EVENT THAT MADE THEM GO BALLISTIC ABOUT OBAMA EVEN SPEAKING TO THEIR CHILDREN, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY, coupled with the fact that no matter how many times they were reassured that he wasn't mentioning anything political, they still did not want him to speak to their kids and that so many parents threatened to pull their children from school JUST BECAUSE Obama was speaking to them.  

THAT is my point.  Not that their need to see the text threatens me.  More power to them for wanting to know what was being said.  Forgive me for putting a modicum of trust in the President to not do a political speech to kids.  I never once thought to question his motivation because I know it would be really stupid of him to speak politically to kids, and he's not stupid.  As a parent, I'm embarrassed if nothing else that the people of this country are so distrusting of this president when he did nothing more than be elected after Bush.  That is ONLY MY OPINION so don't go crediting all liberals, democrats, or atheists with that feeling.

Okay, I'm probably off here, but when people write in all caps and use a lot of exclamation points I take it as the equivalent of shouting.  your posts just came off (to me) as hateful rant criticizing other people of their hateful rants.  but like I said, I'm probably off base and I already apologize for apparently misinterpreting your initial post.

Here's to hoping we can try to reclaim the Happy Atheist attitude here  

My apologies Rlrose, didn't mean to insinuate you were a guy

So I just read the link by Andrew, and I don't see your point, their touting the same thing crying socialism at every thing and how it's the root of all evil. I said there were some differences between the phrases conservative and religious right however most of the same things are said. I'm sure I never said America should become a socialist country and I still don't think so. Any of those forms of government eventually collapse in on themselves however capitalism is no different, the free market hasn't been working well for the past 8 years. I think if we adopted things like universal health care we would hardly be turning into a socialist country, maybe adopting some traits but nothing that every other 1st world country doesn't have in some similar form and last I checked people aren't losing all of their freedoms in the UK because they have socialist elements. In fact most of the countries seem to have a very, very happy population compared to America.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"My apologies Rlrose, didn't mean to insinuate you were a guy

So I just read the link by Andrew, and I don't see your point, their touting the same thing crying socialism at every thing and how it's the root of all evil. I said there were some differences between the phrases conservative and religious right however most of the same things are said. I'm sure I never said America should become a socialist country and I still don't think so. Any of those forms of government eventually collapse in on themselves however capitalism is no different, the free market hasn't been working well for the past 8 years. I think if we adopted things like universal health care we would hardly be turning into a socialist country, maybe adopting some traits but nothing that every other 1st world country doesn't have in some similar form and last I checked people aren't losing all of their freedoms in the UK because they have socialist elements. In fact most of the countries seem to have a very, very happy population compared to America.

Hahahaha.  Yeah, that's not the most left-friendly post I've seen (haven't read that one yet) but if you look to his posts on things like gay marriage and the various forms of conservatism, you'll find that we're actually a rather diverse group.  I mean I wouldn't even pretend that people from Pita and the ACLU are of the same political sphere.  Nor would I claim that the NAACP represents the same form of 'liberalism' as the United Nations.  However, these are all groups that we consider (in the states) to be 'liberal.'  I was raised in a liberal environment and as a result have come to notice and identify the diverse positions and (often opposing) opinions that fall under the banner of 'liberalism.'  I am saying that the same holds true for conservatives.  Give that site a chance.  Not because you agree with it, but because you'll learn more from exposing youself to the opinions of people who disagree with you than those who simply reinforce what you already 'know.'

Quote from: "andrewclunn"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"My apologies Rlrose, didn't mean to insinuate you were a guy

So I just read the link by Andrew, and I don't see your point, their touting the same thing crying socialism at every thing and how it's the root of all evil. I said there were some differences between the phrases conservative and religious right however most of the same things are said. I'm sure I never said America should become a socialist country and I still don't think so. Any of those forms of government eventually collapse in on themselves however capitalism is no different, the free market hasn't been working well for the past 8 years. I think if we adopted things like universal health care we would hardly be turning into a socialist country, maybe adopting some traits but nothing that every other 1st world country doesn't have in some similar form and last I checked people aren't losing all of their freedoms in the UK because they have socialist elements. In fact most of the countries seem to have a very, very happy population compared to America.

Hahahaha.  Yeah, that's not the most left-friendly post I've seen (haven't read that one yet) but if you look to his posts on things like gay marriage and the various forms of conservatism, you'll find that we're actually a rather diverse group.  I mean I wouldn't even pretend that people from Pita and the ACLU are of the same political sphere.  Nor would I claim that the NAACP represents the same form of 'liberalism' as the United Nations.  However, these are all groups that we consider (in the states) to be 'liberal.'  I was raised in a liberal environment and as a result have come to notice and identify the diverse positions and (often opposing) opinions that fall under the banner of 'liberalism.'  I am saying that the same holds true for conservatives.  Give that site a chance.  Not because you agree with it, but because you'll learn more from exposing youself to the opinions of people who disagree with you than those who simply reinforce what you already 'know.'

Indeed, I shall do so. It'll be nice to find some conservatives out there who aren't droned out by the fringes that appear to have besieged the conservative image along with the republican party.

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Okay, I'm probably off here, but when people write in all caps and use a lot of exclamation points I take it as the equivalent of shouting.  your posts just came off (to me) as hateful rant criticizing other people of their hateful rants.  but like I said, I'm probably off base and I already apologize for apparently misinterpreting your initial post.

Here's to hoping we can try to reclaim the Happy Atheist attitude here  :bananacolor:

Quote from: "Ultima22689"My apologies Rlrose, didn't mean to insinuate you were a guy lol  

Quote from: "iNow"I now return you to the session of troll feeding which has been taking place.    ;)

If we can't occasionally  :shake: , we'll soon be reduced to  :yay: