Happy Atheist Forum

Quote from: "Brizz"Haha, I love science but I honestly think the world would be better off without medicine.

In the evolutionary sense, the strong will survive and multiply. The weak will die. Unfortunately in this society, the strong are taxed and the weak receive welfare. People who make no contribution to society, people who are a negative force in this world live fine. And they breed like rats. An upper class family has one or two children while a fat slut on welfare has 6. Those 6 will all have vermin of their own.

That became a rant but I feel animals like bears and wolves are better than a growing amount of people

I've noticed that it's usually only religious people with Social Darwinist beliefs.  Most humanists I know seem to appreciate the value of human life without putting people into categories such as rich and useful or poor and deserving of death.  It will be interesting to see how you react when you eventually get sick.  Will you let yourself die or will you seek medical assistance?  

Were you aware that even the self-righteous get sick?  Were you aware that even though you are now wealthy a single catastrophic illness or accident could take it from you?  Would you then give up and die because if you were sick and poor because of it and it would make you vermin?

I take it you have no appreciation for people like Stephen Hawking since his physical ailments obviously make him inferior in your mind.  It's unsurprising that you are religious.  

The reason rich people breed less (on average) is education.  The answer is not killing off the poor and sick but educating them.  Education will also eventually cure them of religion as well.  Curing them of religion will also limit population growth.

1. Haha, how could an accident take away my money? Give me an example.
2. If I had a fatal illness I would not give up. I would probably write a book and then jump out of an airplane without a parachute.

3. Are you serious? Stephen Hawking has done more for society than most people. Obviously he would be (and is) celebrated.
4. As most people become less religious the truly religious will go overboard and fight much harder.

Quote from: "Brizz"Haha, I love science but I honestly think the world would be better off without medicine.

In the evolutionary sense, the strong will survive and multiply. The weak will die. Unfortunately in this society, the strong are taxed and the weak receive welfare. People who make no contribution to society, people who are a negative force in this world live fine. And they breed like rats. An upper class family has one or two children while a fat slut on welfare has 6. Those 6 will all have vermin of their own.

That became a rant but I feel animals like bears and wolves are better than a growing amount of people

Wow, that is probably one of the least budhist, which you claim you wee, or Taoist, which you claim you arethings I've ever heard. What part of this matches Three Jewels of the Tao: compassion, moderation, and humility.

It seems like you claim taoism because you believe you need religion but like so many theists you don't even follow the tenants of your own religion. When I read your original post I hae hopes that like many following an atheistic religion you would be a fairly open mined sort, but I was wrong. You are ignorant and hatefull. I wouldn't be totaly surprisd if you claimed taoism for the "cool factor" rather then it speaking to you as a way of life (while I have no proof of that other then your obvious not following of your own religion).

Quote from: "Brizz"Haha, I love science but I honestly think the world would be better off without medicine.

In the evolutionary sense, the strong will survive and multiply. The weak will die. Unfortunately in this society, the strong are taxed and the weak receive welfare. People who make no contribution to society, people who are a negative force in this world live fine. And they breed like rats. An upper class family has one or two children while a fat slut on welfare has 6. Those 6 will all have vermin of their own.

That became a rant but I feel animals like bears and wolves are better than a growing amount of people

There are indeed too many people of the world, but now that we've changed the way we live, it's only natural that we change the way we evolve.

In poor countries, the people capable of obtaining medical care survive, in poorer countries the people capable of obtaining food and water survive, in socialist countries the heartless parasites survive, and in rich countries the people capable of staying out of car accidents survive.

I think it's particularly stupid that we give lots of money to people who have lots of kids, thus encouraging people to have lots of kids if they're on welfare, but after we get finished wrecking the planet an entirely different group of people will do well.

Let me describe vermin: Someone who will never be of benefit to society in any way.

THAT is who I dislike. If someone can support themselves economically they are a benefit to society (Tax base) and are therefore totally cool with me.

Quote from: "Tanker"Wow, that is probably one of the least budhist, which you claim you wee, or Taoist, which you claim you arethings I've ever heard. What part of this matches Three Jewels of the Tao: compassion, moderation, and humility.

It seems like you claim taoism because you believe you need religion but like so many theists you don't even follow the tenants of your own religion. When I read your original post I hae hopes that like many following an atheistic religion you would be a fairly open mined sort, but I was wrong. You are ignorant and hatefull. I wouldn't be totaly surprisd if you claimed taoism for the "cool factor" rather then it speaking to you as a way of life (while I have no proof of that other then your obvious not following of your own religion).

I am one of the most open minded people you will ever meet.  And I'm not taoist...I'm pagan. I feel very connected to nature and I just assumed that was a Taoist thing. My bad, ignore it.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"In poor countries, the people capable of obtaining medical care survive, in poorer countries the people capable of obtaining food and water survive, in socialist countries the heartless parasites survive, and in rich countries the people capable of staying out of car accidents survive.

I think it's particularly stupid that we give lots of money to people who have lots of kids, thus encouraging people to have lots of kids if they're on welfare, but after we get finished wrecking the planet an entirely different group of people will do well.

That's what I'm saying!!

Quote from: "Brizz"That's what I'm saying!!

Yeah, and this is what I'm saying:

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Now that we've changed the way we live, it's only natural that we change the way we evolve.

Quote from: "Brizz"Let me describe vermin: Someone who will never be of benefit to society in any way.

THAT is who I dislike. If someone can support themselves economically they are a benefit to society (Tax base) and are therefore totally cool with me.

eh...someone's gotta collect our trash and do other jobs those with more money don't want to do.  I doubt there are many people who really are of zero benefit to society.  Many of these necessity jobs don't pay that well either forcing many to work two jobs just to make a halfway decent living...it's no wonder some people have to seek long term government support; society puts them in that position by allowing them to be paid crap.

Quote from: "Brizz"1. Haha, how could an accident take away my money? Give me an example.

You get in an accident and become disabled as a result.  Your insurance stops covering you as even the "good" insurance has a cap of around $70,000 to $100,000 no matter how much or how long you've paid into it.  Your medical bills go over $100,000 - let's say you are in a burn trauma unit, so they go far over $100,000.  In fact, they go over a million dollars in almost no time.  The money you had in savings is all gone.  Your house is gone.  Meanwhile, you are no longer working so you file for Disability.  Since you are grossly injured you get it right away - about six months after you have gone through all your savings.  The problem is that you went through all your savings right away paying your hospital bills.  

Though you are now permanently disabled and disfigured you are out of the hospital in two months.  You would go back to work but you no longer have fingers and scar tissue prevents you from lifting or carrying.  So your friends let you couch surf a little, maybe for a month or so.  Now, three months stretch out ahead of you with no income and no savings left and you have overstayed your welcome with friends.

This isn't a wild scenario.  I know a person who went through a similar experience.

Then there's my situation, the one that makes it so you figure I should die.

I worked as a high design florist and ran a small marine aquaculture business out of my home as well as making a few hundred bucks a month from my writing.  My personal income was only between $40,000 and $55,000 per year so not rich but certainly not poor.

I was injured - a concussion and a broken hand.  These injuries apparently set off my lupus and fibromyalgia.  Lupus is an autoimmune disease, not a character flaw.  Testing showed I had a brain tumor as well.  I also have these daily fevers which go up around 104-105 a few times a week for which a reason was never found.

So I became too ill to work.  I lose consciousness without warning sometimes, I have seizures, and when my fever gets high I become delirious as well.  There's also the chronic pain and weakness but they didn't stop me from working on their own.  

Eventually I lost my job and insurance.  I figured I was fine, I had my savings to last until I got better and could work again and I still had great insurance.

For over a year I saw doctors who were at best not trying very hard and at worst couldn't read my history and prescribed harmful medications.  A year of "the best medical care in the world" and I was still sick, even more sick than I started out.  A lot of it probably had to do with the fact that waits to see specialists like neurologists and rheumatologists are several months in America so I only got a few several minute visits with each.

So, when my savings ran out, I applied for Disability.  I'm in appeals because SSI figures a person can work just fine while delirious, vomiting, seizing, or unconscious - actually, they took none of that into account, they just evaluated me on the basis of my fibro and my mental state.  I guess in your book I was supposed to jump out of a plane without a parachute before this.

So I get by on my writing income alone and I'm really, really poor.  I have never bred and never will.  That option was taken away from me by a guy with a dirty hunting knife about twenty years ago.  Besides which, I used birth control all those years I didn't realize I was infertile.  So, because I haven't made vermin, just like me and useless, does that mean I deserve to exist in your eyes?

You think Stephen Hawking deserves to live - but is it only because he is brilliant and eloquent?  So if he'd been an average guy with the same illness he'd have been useless vermin?

I'm okay with disability. Government can take my tax dollars for that. That disability is not your fault.

I am talking almost exclusively about WELFARE. Where you have the ability to work but choose not to. They can say "There's no jobs out there"....but there are. I have 3  jobs in this economic recession. Why? Because I like money.

Imagine someone has never worked a day in their life, lives off YOUR money, and then has 6 more kids who do the EXACT SAME THING.  But you don't need your imagination, there are tons in your city, and in EVERY city.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Brizz"

Quote from: "Ninteen45"(I'm waiting for the regulars to start with the converting to atheism stuff, seriously, every new religious member gets themselves ripped to sheds by those guys after posting once! Jeez!)

So atheists try to get everyone to think like them? To adhere to their system of beliefs? How...familiar

I don't know where Ninteen45 got that comment from...the only people who get ripped are the trolls.

I love pulling your leg.

It's so easy!

And In the disability thing.... My uncle got Accidentallt run down with a steamroller. He got put in disability for being unable to walk much, a paragraph in the news and help with spotting a fatal flaw in an entire set of Steamrollers from an assemby line! (something to do with a faulty brake pin that breaks...)

Quote from: "Brizz"I'm okay with disability.

There ya go.

Brizz, ever read The Grapes of Wrath? If not, than you can read a summary here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath)

Its a very good book, and goes to show that a lot of the time, the people who work the hardest are actualy the poorest in society.

Quote from: "Whitney"eh...someone's gotta collect our trash and do other jobs those with more money don't want to do.  I doubt there are many people who really are of zero benefit to society.  Many of these necessity jobs don't pay that well either forcing many to work two jobs just to make a halfway decent living...it's no wonder some people have to seek long term government support; society puts them in that position by allowing them to be paid crap.

Hawking bless you, Whitney.  

Brizz, consider me a ditch digger. I'm a good ditch digger and work hard, seven days a week. I get married and have a child. What's wrong with the government (society as a whole) recognizing that I need help on a ditch-digger's income for some essentials, like cheese and butter (which are already subsidized industries), medical care and diapers?

Quote from: "Thom Phelps"Brizz, consider me a ditch digger. I'm a good ditch digger and work hard, seven days a week. I get married and have a child. What's wrong with the government (society as a whole) recognizing that I need help on a ditch-digger's income for some essentials, like cheese and butter (which are already subsidized industries), medical care and diapers?

1. No industry should ever be subsidized.
2. If you're working hard seven days a week, you should have more than enough money to live on. I can live off $1000/month no problem.

No one should have to work their ass off seven days a week and still not make enough to afford health insurance.

Quote from: "Brizz"

Quote from: "Thom Phelps"Brizz, consider me a ditch digger. I'm a good ditch digger and work hard, seven days a week. I get married and have a child. What's wrong with the government (society as a whole) recognizing that I need help on a ditch-digger's income for some essentials, like cheese and butter (which are already subsidized industries), medical care and diapers?

1. No industry should ever be subsidized.
2. If you're working hard seven days a week, you should have more than enough money to live on. I can live off $1000/month no problem.

Now subtract $600 per month for family health insurance.  Is $400 a month still enough to pay rent and utilities and buy food?

Do you think that everyone who works deserves a wage which is enough to survive on?  That would be a wage that would allow anyone who worked a minimum of forty hours per week enough to pay for a minimal apartment and utilities, basic groceries, and medical insurance.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Now subtract $600 per month for family health insurance.

If not more than that.  I know my individual coverage through my work was $600/month before they switched to a group based plan....and that included having to pay a co-pay and didn't include dentist/optometrist.

Edit:  The group based plan brought it down to $400...which is still a lot.

My whole family is currently living off of $1000/month.

No, I am not insured.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Do you think that everyone who works deserves a wage which is enough to survive on?  That would be a wage that would allow anyone who worked a minimum of forty hours per week enough to pay for a minimal apartment and utilities, basic groceries, and medical insurance.

Yes! Hahahahahaha!!!

That wage is called MINUMUM WAGE!

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"My whole family is currently living off of $1000/month.

No, I am not insured.

Sucks for you Yankees.....s'all free over here :cool:

Quote from: "Brizz"Yes! Hahahahahaha!!!

That wage is called MINUMUM WAGE!

Yup.

Even in Kansas, where the minimum wage is $2.65, the Federal minimum wage of $7.25 still applies, and can support a healthy life, barring something unfortunate.

QuoteAnd good job with the budget!!

Heh, It would never work out if we didn't already own the house free and clear.

Plus, it's only temporary.

Quote from: "Brizz"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Do you think that everyone who works deserves a wage which is enough to survive on?  That would be a wage that would allow anyone who worked a minimum of forty hours per week enough to pay for a minimal apartment and utilities, basic groceries, and medical insurance.

Yes! Hahahahahaha!!!

That wage is called MINUMUM WAGE!

Apparently you are in Canada or the UK since you said it's free where you are, but minimum wage is not enough to cover health care in the USA.  So, our minimum wage is not enough to cover minimal necessities (unless you never get sick/hurt and don't have to pay rent or make a house payment...which isn't very many people).

I think the 1,000 a month would be gone or close to it by the time I got done paying rent and utilities even if I lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in a bad part of Dallas.

Minimum wage with 40 hour weeks is more than $1200 a month, not $1000.  Where I live it would be more like $1400, and with a 60 hour week that is pushed to a very livable $2000.

Also, there are very few jobs around here that pay only minimum wage, and they mostly hire kids because adults don't work that cheap

QuoteApparently you are in Canada or the UK

He's in Canada.

QuoteI think the 1,000 a month would be gone or close to it by the time I got done paying rent and utilities

People make do.  You can always get a roommate or something.

Quoteeven if I lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in a bad part of Dallas.

A trailer might be cheaper.

After rent+utilities, I judge $100/week for reasonably healthy food.





Eh, you know what?  You're right....(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/images/smilies/mini%20triste.png)

ya, minimum wage at 40 hours a week would be $1160 a month before state/fed taxes.  (and if you work for walmart, like many people making min wage, they would make sure you can spend free time with your family by not allowing you to work overtime since they don't want to pay you time and a half)

It's liveable if you don't have to pay for health insurance, have cheap transportation, can find a cheap place to live, have zero debt, and don't buy a lot of fresh meat or fresh produce....safety and health would be luxuries  

If someone is working full-time at Walmart...they should not live like kings.

And you know what a partner is? It's someone who sucks your dick and pays half the rent

Quote from: "Brizz"So atheists try to get everyone to think like them? To adhere to their system of beliefs? How...familiar

Can you please describe for me what the "atheist system of beliefs" is? That doesn't make sense.  How is my lack of belief in [strike:719pb1nj]Thor[/strike:719pb1nj] [strike:719pb1nj]Zeus[/strike:719pb1nj] [strike:719pb1nj]Apollo[/strike:719pb1nj] [strike:719pb1nj]Baal[/strike:719pb1nj] [strike:719pb1nj]Poseidon[/strike:719pb1nj] Yahweh a "system of beliefs?"

Perhaps you are thinking of humanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism)?


If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color.  

Quote from: "Brizz"Haha, I love science but I honestly think the world would be better off without medicine.

In the evolutionary sense, the strong will survive and multiply. The weak will die.

Yeah... Because it's simply not possible for evolution to favor intelligence... Intelligence which can treat illnesses.  It's simply not possible that strength and academic ability overlap tremendously when defined in a biological context.  If you really think those thoughts, Brizz, then I humbly request you study the process of evolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html) a bit more, as evolution is about MUCH more than just physical fitness.  

Further, caring for members of the pack also leads to stronger packs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection)... as evidenced by the fact that group selection was selected for among humans, other primates, as well as non-primate animals... So your suggestion that it is somehow weak or wrong to care for members of our [strike:719pb1nj]pack[/strike:719pb1nj] society is rather lacking.

Quote from: "Whitney"safety and health would be luxuries  :yay:

Quote from: "Brizz"Haha, I love science but I honestly think the world would be better off without medicine.

In the evolutionary sense, the strong will survive and multiply. The weak will die.

Quote from: "iNow"Yeah... Because it's simply not possible for evolution to favor intelligence... Intelligence which can treat illnesses.  It's simply not possible that strength and academic ability overlap tremendously when defined in a biological context.  If you really think those thoughts, Brizz, then I humbly request you study the process of evolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html) a bit more, as evolution is about MUCH more than just physical fitness.  

Further, caring for members of the pack also leads to stronger packs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection)... as evidenced by the fact that group selection was selected for among humans, other primates, as well as non-primate animals... So your suggestion that it is somehow weak or wrong to care for members of our [strike:1jshu5it]pack[/strike:1jshu5it] society is rather lacking.

Well I have seen gorilla's fold rough leaves and then eat them. It cleans all the worms out of their gut. How awesome is that?
Obviously some medicine is a good thing, but I don't like most of it.

There was a time when I wanted to be a doctor....but I decided against it.

I know evolution is about much more than physical fitness....cavemen didn't work out. It would've been about genetics and high T levels if anything. I agree that you need smart members of the pack....I'm one of them!

This thread is about paganism but we're talking about poor people being poor, evolution and it's about to turn into a debate about health care reform  

If you want to argue an issue, start a new thread! This is about paganism.

I know you guys want to hear more about my social theories....I'll make a new thread for that later.

Quote from: "Brizz"This thread is about paganism but we're talking about poor people being poor, evolution and it's about to turn into a debate about health care reform  

If you want to argue an issue, start a new thread! This is about paganism.

I know you guys want to hear more about my social theories....I'll make a new thread for that later.

I split off from Kylyssa's post which responded about social darwinism...the paganism thread is about paganism (and views of atheism) now.

Alright sweet.

So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

Quote from: "Brizz"So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

Could you be less abrasive with your wording?

I think a few of us have already established that we don't think someone is worthless just because they are down on their luck and/or have a less desireable job and that it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.

Quote from: "Brizz"Alright sweet.

So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

What you seem to miss is a clear understanding of the current system in the US, as we are already supporting people who are uninsured with our own money.  Those who are uninsured miss early attempts at detection and treatment... attempts at detection and treatment which would be very low cost and very high efficacy.  They then continue to get sicker and sicker as a result of not receiving care, and more often than not wind up in the emergency room seeking catastrophic care as a last resort... but, despite having no other options and seeking the last resort of catastrophic care at the Emergency Room, they have no coverage and no means of paying for the treatments which costs thousands (and sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars.  

Those unpaid costs to the ER get absorbed by the insurance companies who raise premiums on the rest of us... So, in fact, we ALREADY pay for uninsured people with our own dollars.  The point is that... through a few minor changes to the system... we can cover everybody at lower personal costs to each of us, and put a greater focus on prevention than on catastrophic treatment, and do so for everyone in the nation regardless of wealth or privilege.

In sum, your comment shows a blaring ignorance of the current setup, as well as a misunderstanding of how the proposed changes actually make the individual costs to each of us LOWER.

Enjoy.

Quote from: "iNow"What you seem to miss is a clear understanding of the current system in the US, as we are already supporting people who are uninsured with our own money.  Those who are uninsured miss early attempts at detection and treatment... attempts at detection and treatment which would be very low cost and very high efficacy.  They then continue to get sicker and sicker as a result of not receiving care, and more often than not wind up in the emergency room seeking catastrophic care as a last resort... but, despite having no other options and seeking the last resort of catastrophic care at the Emergency Room, they have no coverage and no means of paying for the treatments which costs thousands (and sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars.  

Those unpaid costs to the ER get absorbed by the insurance companies who raise premiums on the rest of us... So, in fact, we ALREADY pay for uninsured people with our own dollars.  The point is that... through a few minor changes to the system... we can cover everybody at lower personal costs to each of us, and put a greater focus on prevention than on catastrophic treatment, and do so for everyone in the nation regardless of wealth or privilege.

In sum, your comment shows a blaring ignorance of the current setup, as well as a misunderstanding of how the proposed changes actually make the individual costs to each of us LOWER.

Enjoy.

What you seem to miss is...that I'm talking about WELFARE. As a Canadian I really, really, reallllllllllly don't give a shit about healthcare.

Quote from: "Whitney"it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.

I didn't uh....I'm sorry. I'm used to being around hard-working, hard-fighting men and women. That sentence infuriates me for many reasons. The most Capitalistic country I can think of is the USA. That means that it is the EASIEST country in the world for the poor to rise up. I (and many of the most successful people I know) were raised poor...that just made us hungry. When we saw an opportunity to make money we snatched it and fucking made money. To think someone with Western citizenship cannot bring themselves out of poverty is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Quote from: "Brizz"What you seem to miss is...that I'm talking about WELFARE. As a Canadian I really, really, reallllllllllly don't give a shit about healthcare.

Health affects one's ability to work...you can't really talk about the need for Welfare in the US without discussing health care.

Quote from: "Brizz"I didn't uh....I'm sorry. I'm used to being around hard-working, hard-fighting men and women. That sentence infuriates me for many reasons. The most Capitalistic country I can think of is the USA. That means that it is the EASIEST country in the world for the poor to rise up. I (and many of the most successful people I know) were raised poor...that just made us hungry. When we saw an opportunity to make money we snatched it and fucking made money. To think someone with Western citizenship cannot bring themselves out of poverty is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

You have a very simplistic idea of the actual manifestation of capitalism in the United States.

I thought you guys were supposed to be rational.....

Quote from: "Brizz"I thought you guys were supposed to be rational.....

Are you talking about American politicians or people on this forum?

There is a benefit black hole which swallows billions a year in the UK. We have major issues with fraud, inefficiency and policy malfunctions. There are women who get paid thousands a month to care for several children. They will then be given a huge house for free. Many of these women bring up their children in the knowledge that they will never have to work in order to have a cosy life. All they'll have to do is open their legs to 6 different men and the tax payer will take care of the rest. This problem is real and I simply do not have an answer for it. The fascist in me says neuter them. The humanist in me says educate them. It isn't a good situation but it is simply a byproduct of a system which is there, initially, to help people in need. Of all the people who get deserving and legitimate help from the benefit system, the people who abuse it probably only represent one percent of the total (I don't know that for sure but I'd be surprised if it was much more).

There are 35 people working in the benefit fraud office a few buildings down from where I work. They catch thousands of people a year and that is just for the Cambridgeshire area (I work for the council). Many of the people caught are illegal immigrants. They are deported immediately. The UK citizens who are caught go straight to jail. The penalties are enormous but that doesn't seem to deter the people really determined to screw the system. It is a problem I have no simple answer for.

I recently had an argument with an ignorant religious idiot in an online game I play (he is from S. Carolina somewhere). His reasoning for the above issue was to take away all benefits and let everyone who can't work starve to death... Because apparently they should all just get a god damn job. The amount of unemployed people in the US runs in the millions. I guess the issue of five million rioting people was lost on this guy, not to mention his blatant lack of empathy for his fellow human. This guy called himself a christian too...  
He was obviously an aberration but there are a lot of radical idiots out there who feel the same way. I'm just glad they are not in charge. Your views seem to be boardering this kind of radicalism, Brizz.

From some of the comments in this thread I'm actually rather relieved I benefit from the NHS. I've been to an emergency ward twice in my life. I've had a minor operation once before. Luckily I'm rather healthy but if anything untoward did happen to me, I wouldn't have to worry one little bit. I'd be taken to Addenbrokes and treated until healthy. I've used benefits for approximately 1 month during my adult life. I attribute that to the education I received. My qualifications mean employers want to employ me. I got these qualifications because I went to a good school in a good area. I was lucky. Other people aren't so lucky. People brought up in broken homes without the benefit of real love from parent(s) whilst living in poverty are statistically more likely to become criminals. Society has failed them in my opinion. They were born without a chance in life. Is it then any wonder they resort to cheating a system set up to help the most needy?

So, in conclusion, the benefit system is there to help people because we live in an advanced society which (hopefully) cares for its citizens. Yes, there are loopholes, fraudsters and cheats but isn't that the same with almost every walk of life? We just have to work to educate the masses and reform society so the proportion of the criminal element stays low. Education must be the key, surely.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"You have a very simplistic idea of the actual manifestation of capitalism in the United States.

I was raised on bread and balogne.....I know what I'm talking about.

Quote from: "karadan"There is a benefit black hole which swallows billions a year in the UK. We have major issues with fraud, inefficiency and policy malfunctions. There are women who get paid thousands a month to care for several children. They will then be given a huge house for free. Many of these women bring up their children in the knowledge that they will never have to work in order to have a cosy life. All they'll have to do is open their legs to 6 different men and the tax payer will take care of the rest. This problem is real and I simply do not have an answer for it. The fascist in me says neuter them.

 :D

QuoteThe humanist in me says educate them. It isn't a good situation but it is simply a byproduct of a system which is there, initially, to help people in need. Of all the people who get deserving and legitimate help from the benefit system, the people who abuse it probably only represent one percent of the total (I don't know that for sure but I'd be surprised if it was much more).

I like Reaganomics. It seemed mean at the time but it was very good overall.

Quote from: "Brizz"I like Reaganomics. It seemed mean at the time but it was very good overall.

Might I point out that national debt went from 900 million to 2.8 billion while Reagan was in office?

Quote from: "Brizz"

Quote from: "karadan"There is a benefit black hole which swallows billions a year in the UK. We have major issues with fraud, inefficiency and policy malfunctions. There are women who get paid thousands a month to care for several children. They will then be given a huge house for free. Many of these women bring up their children in the knowledge that they will never have to work in order to have a cosy life. All they'll have to do is open their legs to 6 different men and the tax payer will take care of the rest. This problem is real and I simply do not have an answer for it. The fascist in me says neuter them.

 :D

QuoteThe humanist in me says educate them. It isn't a good situation but it is simply a byproduct of a system which is there, initially, to help people in need. Of all the people who get deserving and legitimate help from the benefit system, the people who abuse it probably only represent one percent of the total (I don't know that for sure but I'd be surprised if it was much more).

I like Reaganomics. It seemed mean at the time but it was very good overall.

If you'd have read further down, you'd see i wasn't agreeing with you so your thanks isn't really necessary.

I'm not sure what Reaganomics is.

Reaganomics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

Isn't Reagonomics why we have the ENRONs now? Give more to the rich in hopes that it'll trickle down to the workers, but it never did. It's why the middle class is going byebye.

Um, what do you mean by ENRONs?

Quote from: "Reginus"Um, what do you mean by ENRONs?

ENRON was a gigantic corporation which got caught committing accounting fraud after filing for bankruptcy.  Most who owned stock in the company lost a ton of money when the stocks became unexpectedly worthless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron)

What does that have to do with giving money to rich and hoping it trickles down? Did ENRON get money from the government or something?

Quote from: "Reginus"What does that have to do with giving money to rich and hoping it trickles down? Did ENRON get money from the government or something?

I honestly don't know...when the ENRON scandal happened I was too busy with college to care to read much about it.

Quote from: "Reginus"Did ENRON get money from the government or something?

You bet it did!

Quote from: "Congressman Ron Paul, writing in 2002,"Enron in fact was deeply involved with the federal government throughout the 1990s, both through its lobbying efforts and as a recipient of large amounts of corporate welfare.

Enron provides a perfect example of the dangers of corporate subsidies. The company was (and is) one of the biggest beneficiaries of Export-Import Bank subsidies. The Ex-Im bank, a program that Congress continues to fund with your tax dollars, essentially makes risky loans to foreign governments and businesses for projects involving American companies. The Bank, which purports to help developing nations, really acts as a naked subsidy for certain politically-favored American corporations- especially corporations like Enron that lobbied hard and gave huge amounts of cash to both political parties. Its reward was more that $600 million in cash via six different Ex-Im financed projects.

You can find the full essay by Congressman Paul here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/paul12.html).

In addition to this "corporate welfare," Enron received huge tax breaks.

 

Quote from: "Congressman Bernard Sanders, writing in 2002,"Enron ripped off taxpayers by playing fast and loose with the tax code, by not paying its fair share of taxes, and by receiving hundreds of millions in tax rebates from the federal government.

Full text of Congressman Sanders' essay can be found here (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0129-09.htm).

Government policies led to an absurd situation:  A huge corporation run by criminals being subsidized by the Federal government.  In my opinion, these policies were a direct legacy of Reaganomics.

Interesting, but I can't say that I'm the least bit suprised.

SUBSIDIES ARE UN-AMERICAN AND TOTALLY AGAINST RONALD REAGAN AND MILTON FRIEDMAN.

Had to do it.

Kylyssa
The reason rich people breed less (on average) is education. The answer is not killing off the poor and sick but educating them. Education will also eventually cure them of religion as well. Curing them of religion will also limit population growth.

Are you serious? You talk about religion like it's a disease.

Whitney
eh...someone's gotta collect our trash and do other jobs those with more money don't want to do. I doubt there are many people who really are of zero benefit to society. Many of these necessity jobs don't pay that well either forcing many to work two jobs just to make a halfway decent living...it's no wonder some people have to seek long term government support; society puts them in that position by allowing them to be paid crap.

Shit, I've had those " necessity" jobs you talk about, I guess you don't realize that starting pay for most of those jobs is about ten dollars an hour, and  quite frankly, I've never once been on welfare, I've never had health insurance, and I've paid every hospital bill I've had.

Whitney
No one should have to work their ass off seven days a week and still not make enough to afford health insurance.

Why not? It's not like stupid people deserve good paying jobs.I've worked with a fair number of people who need to be taken out back and shot before they breed.

iNow
We in the US are pretty much the only civilized nation which treats health as a privilege for the wealthy instead of a right of our citizens

Healthcare isn't a right, especially when you consider the fact that we have the best healthcare system in the world, it's only the insurance system that blows goats.

Whitney
Could you be less abrasive with your wording?

I think a few of us have already established that we don't think someone is worthless just because they are down on their luck and/or have a less desireable job and that it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.

Pfft. Abrasive isn't a bad thing, especially not when telling the truth.

Down on their luck, do you have any idea how many cases of welfare fraud the government would find if they only took the time too look? The real problem in America is that most people living in the bottom bracket have lost touch with the idea that you do whatever you can to make money. Thyinking you're too good to pave a road is the reason these morons are making seven dollars an hour at walmart instead of $14  working a shovel for eight hours a day.

 And the bottom income bracket is constantly changing in this country as immigrants move in and others move up.This isn't europe, where the so called social classes are very real and very defined, upward mobility is nonexistant, economic growth sucks due to the very same ideals that people are bandying about nowadays.

curiosityandthecat
Isn't Reagonomics why we have the ENRONs now? Give more to the rich in hopes that it'll trickle down to the workers, but it never did. It's why the middle class is going byebye.

No. And Yeah, giving more to the rich is such a bad idea, especially when your idea of rich is anyone who makes more than 200 grand a year. Nevermind that they employ 70 pecent of the employed population, and when you cut taxes on them the government(this is a proven fact now) actually collects more in tax revenue.

The benefit system is that which creates castes, it classifies a citizen as a certain bracket and treats them as such.  As for the "it's already subsidized" argument, how much did it annoy you when Bush said that "one mustn't change horses in the middle of a stream" (imagine that in the faux-texan accent for a laugh), having something already done doesn't mean it shouldn't be undone.

Quote from: "Grizzly"Had to do it.

Kylyssa
The reason rich people breed less (on average) is education. The answer is not killing off the poor and sick but educating them. Education will also eventually cure them of religion as well. Curing them of religion will also limit population growth.

Are you serious? You talk about religion like it's a disease.

Most objections to population limiting factors (not having a dozen kids for instance) are religious.  Religion is a balm that suffering people reach for when they feel there is no real world solution to their misery.  Religion is a factor of divisiveness more insidious than skin color or culture.  Bigotry against women, homosexuals, people of other skin colors and cultures, and differing lifestyles often has its genesis in religion.

The practice of religion halts the shift to more humane social paradigms by continuing to support and nurture artificial divisions between people through control and misinformation.

Religion is a symptom of ignorance - not stupidity, ignorance.  Suffering seems to cause people to seek it out.  Uneducated people are more likely to be criminals, alcoholics, drug addicts, and religious.  In countries where the level of education and prosperity have risen all of these symptoms tend to shrink.  There are less criminals, alcoholics, drug addicts, and religious people once the general happiness of the population is increased and the level of suffering is decreased.  It just happens naturally.

So I suppose I don't see religion as a disease but as a symptom of a disease much like the aches and pains of flu are not the illness, they are merely a symptom.

I do not suggest we take away people's religion, I merely suggest we remedy their suffering and watch all of its symptoms disappear.

I found this a couple of years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index)

Notice how the US is ranked bellow the Congo, Lebanon, and Iran even though we have much "better" systems of education and healthcare. It seems to me like we might be better off trying to learn from the Central American countries, because apparently they're doing something right.

Quote from: "Grizzly"Shit, I've had those " necessity" jobs you talk about, I guess you don't realize that starting pay for most of those jobs is about ten dollars an hour, and  quite frankly, I've never once been on welfare, I've never had health insurance, and I've paid every hospital bill I've had.

Starting pay for unskilled necessary job is minimum wage and in times like these it would be hard to get in on, say, a construction job if you don't have prior experience since the labor pool is filled with experience workers ready to work. You do realize that is is necessary to have stockers, cashiers, etc for us to be able to buy items we need (and don't need).  

Just because you have been able to pay every medical bill without insurance doesn't mean someone else can; get the right thing wrong with you and are only skilled/well enough to work a minimum wage cashier job and you would be in trouble financially pretty quickly.  Imagine that you are married and you and your spouse decide to have a child.  The pregnancy goes well but then the doctors find out there is something medically wrong with the child that can be fixed but will cost one hundred thousand dollars after hospital stay fees and surgery costs.  You are left with the option to not have the procedure done (child neglect?) or go into severe debt.  

QuoteWhitney
No one should have to work their ass off seven days a week and still not make enough to afford health insurance.

Why not? It's not like stupid people deserve good paying jobs.I've worked with a fair number of people who need to be taken out back and shot before they breed.

I'm not saying everyone should live a life of luxury but everyone should be paid well enough to afford basic needs....access to quality health care (mainly only obtainable with insurance in the US) should be a basic need.

Quote
Whitney
Could you be less abrasive with your wording?

Pfft. Abrasive isn't a bad thing, especially not when telling the truth.

I'd appreciate if you respected the forum rules...abrasive is a bad thing here because we promote a civil atmosphere.  Just because you agree with someone doesn't mean they are telling the truth.

QuoteI think a few of us have already established that we don't think someone is worthless just because they are down on their luck and/or have a less desireable job and that it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.
Down on their luck, do you have any idea how many cases of welfare fraud the government would find if they only took the time too look? The real problem in America is that most people living in the bottom bracket have lost touch with the idea that you do whatever you can to make money. Thyinking you're too good to pave a road is the reason these morons are making seven dollars an hour at walmart instead of $14  working a shovel for eight hours a day.

How do you know welfare fraud is that high...guessing?  What makes you think there are enough shovel jobs out there for anyone that wants one?  What makes you think everyone is physically capable of that amount of physical activity and heat/cold exposure?

Quote from: "Whitney"What makes you think everyone is physically capable of that amount of physical activity and heat/cold exposure?

Alright, I'm done. You guys are a liberal brick wall. If you guys have such a boner for evolution, you should know what man has been through. EVER HEARD OF THE INUIT? KNOW HOW HOT AFRICA GETS?

Man is resilient, and you are wimps.

Quote from: "Brizz"

Quote from: "Whitney"What makes you think everyone is physically capable of that amount of physical activity and heat/cold exposure?

Alright, I'm done. You guys are a liberal brick wall. If you guys have such a boner for evolution, you should know what man has been through. EVER HEARD OF THE INUIT? KNOW HOW HOT AFRICA GETS?

Man is resilient, and you are wimps.

Brizz....so we should let those who aren't physically capable of having a decent paying grunt work job struggle?    

Are you purposely trying to misread things people type?  Anyway...feel free to go, I won't talk you out of it.

There's no point trying to discuss the value of human life with a religious Social Darwinist.  I've found that many believers are sure that misfortune is either a punishment from a higher power or the direct result of mistakes and bad choices which also should be punished.  They don't see the possibility of falling on bad health or misfortune themselves because they have a strong feeling of superiority and a conviction that bad things only happen to people who are emotional weaklings or mentally ill - both of which they see as choices.

I don't think I've actually ever met a non-religious Social Darwinist.  I think it takes belief in the supernatural to make people feel superior and insulated from human frailties themselves to the point they no longer feel empathy or responsibility for their fellow man.

Anyone read the Pendragon books? Reminds me of Ravinia.