Happy Atheist Forum

I have come across atheists who insist that they don't know anything about the beginning of the universe.

Is that true, or only for some atheists?


What I know from my readings is that atheists maintain that only matter has always existed and matter behaves in randomness; which matter behaving in randomness led to the existence of human beings who possess conscious intelligence and enjoy free will.


What do you happy atheists say about my thoughts here?


Anyway, if any atheists claim to know nothing about anything, please tell me on what questions do you claim to know nothing about.


 

Yrreg

quick point; the only thing that atheists definitely believe in there is the questioning of existence of god (leaning towards no). There is no book that atheists follow so that question is not able to be answered as cut and dry as you would like. However, most atheist follow science, so if you would like your answer as the scientific community. I'm sure some other board members will fill you in on the evidence science has provided for us. I don't have the wind for it right now.

Atheism is not a belief system.

Quote from: "Yrreg"I have come across atheists who insist that they don't know anything about the beginning of the universe.

Is that true, or only for some atheists?


What I know from my readings is that atheists maintain that only matter has always existed and matter behaves in randomness; which matter behaving in randomness led to the existence of human beings who possess conscious intelligence and enjoy free will.


What do you happy atheists say about my thoughts here?


Anyway, if any atheists claim to know nothing about anything, please tell me on what questions do you claim to know nothing about.


 

Yrreg

What does being an atheist have to do with knowing, or claiming to know, about the "beginning" of the universe? Most people don't even know about current cosmological theories of what happened in the time after the Big Bang, let alone what happened at the beginning (if there was such a thing). In fact, no one knows about it. So why do atheists warrant special attention regarding this question?

Quote from: "Yrreg"I have come across atheists who insist that they don't know anything about the beginning of the universe...

Welcome to this forum, Yrreg.  Regarding the question of the beginning of the universe, even the most knowledgeable physicists and cosmologists do not have a definitive answer for what exactly occurred in the very earliest moments of the universe's existence.  Are you implying that this gap in knowledge is some sort of fatal failing on the part of those who seek a non-supernatural explanation for the reality we inhabit?

 

Quote from: "Yrreg"...Is that true, or only for some atheists?

I think you will find that only a fairly delusional "atheist" will ever claim to speak for all of those who identify themselves as atheists on any subject other than the non-existence of gods.  Still, a person who professes to have knowledge of the very beginnings of the universe is, in my mind, professing an article of faith, whatever they choose to call themselves.

Quote from: "Yrreg"...if any atheists claim to know nothing about anything, please tell me on what questions do you claim to know nothing about.

  Perhaps you might state this question in a more coherent manner.  As it reads now, I can't make any sense at all from it. It sort of sounds like you're saying that atheism=solipsism, but that's just a guess on my part.

 

Quote from: "Yrreg"What do you happy atheists say about my thoughts here?

I speak only for myself; the answer is an emphatic "Meh."

(EDIT: If I seem to be repeating points made in previous posts, blame it on my slow typing; when I started my response there had been no answers to your post.)

No one knows how the universe began.  Some people have guesses, some people have beliefs, and some scientists have incomplete ideas about the origins of the universe...but no one knows exactly how it started.

Atheists just don't believe in a god.  That doesn't mean that "atheists claim to know nothing about anything."  Where did you get that idea from?

I am glad that the atheists here do not resort to an answer like "I know nothing about something," for example the beginning of the physical universe.

The atheists whom I have come across who resort to that kind of an answer to my question about the beginning of the physical universe, they have the need to not go into the socalled Big Bang where the universe is supposed to have a beginning and therefore it must have some entity to get it started.

What about you happy atheists here, what do you say about the Big Bang?


Back to atheists who claim to not know anything about some questions occupying the minds of mankind, I am thinking of drawing up a list of questions to which atheists generally answer to the effect that they know nothing, so that I need not bother them with those questions, except to say to myself and readers of web forums that atheists generally claim to know nothing about any answers to those questions.


To every happy atheist here, hope that you being atheists and I being theist, we can get along for the purpose of discussing our respective worldviews and enjoy ourselves in the process; because we are both human beings who are curious about many things, like the question of God and what should or how should be our reactions toward God.

And a host of so many questions, like the certainty of God's existence, for you atheists no God is your certain submission just as for me a theist yes God is my certain submission.

Just the same as I said, we are both human beings, and I submit that we can both be happy, you happy atheists and I happy theist notwithstanding that we hold diametrically contradictory worldviews.


This is the first time I come across an atheist web forum hosted by happy atheists.

That only means that I have not met all kinds of atheists.

Good, something new to know and to get better acquainted with.



Yrreg

Sometimes when one can't answer a question satisfactorily in his/her own words, it is best to use the words of another. So, to the question of,

QuoteWhat about you happy atheists here, what do you say about the Big Bang?

I resort to this quote from Astrophysicist/Historian Neil deGrasse Tyson:

"We stockpile the discoveries of the most brilliant members of our species, allowing us, however strained and with whatever struggle it involved, to slowly ascend the ladder of knowledge, maybe compensating for the fact that any one of us is just too stupid to figure it all out."

Hismikeness

Quote from: "Yrreg"What about you happy atheists here, what do you say about the Big Bang?

I can't speak for other atheists (and I am still a bit confused about what atheists you have talked to if you have never met one that is happy), but from what I know about the Big Bang (BB) it is just a point when what we call time started and the universe started to become what we see today.  There is nothing about the BB theory which states that is the birthplace of all that has ever existed and we really don't know what happened before it.  Even if the BB were definitely the start of all that exists, I don't see how that would mean a god exists....we'd just not know how the BB started just as we don't know how everything started now.

QuoteBack to atheists who claim to not know anything about some questions occupying the minds of mankind, I am thinking of drawing up a list of questions to which atheists generally answer to the effect that they know nothing, so that I need not bother them with those questions, except to say to myself and readers of web forums that atheists generally claim to know nothing about any answers to those questions.

What's wrong with someone admitting they don't have an answer?  The world would be a lot better place if we were all that honest.

QuoteTo every happy atheist here, hope that you being atheists and I being theist, we can get along for the purpose of discussing our respective worldviews and enjoy ourselves in the process; because we are both human beings who are curious about many things, like the question of God and what should or how should be our reactions toward God.

People on this forum tend to get along very well with those who are willing to discuss rather than preach

QuoteAnd a host of so many questions, like the certainty of God's existence, for you atheists no God is your certain submission just as for me a theist yes God is my certain submission.

Depending on who you ask (as there is some debate) atheist doesn't necessarily imply strong atheism (claiming to be able to know a god doesn't exist).  In my experience, 90% of atheists are agnostic atheists...meaning that they just don't see a reason to believe in a god.

QuoteAnd a host of so many questions, like the certainty of God's existence, for you atheists no God is your certain submission just as for me a theist yes God is my certain submission.

For me god exists outside plausibility. Science still calls gravity a theory and that's how I personally approach belief in a deity, I can be confident, personally, that there is no god, but who knows. There isn't evidence for me and gods exists outside the realm of anything society has ever encountered. I can't have blind faith in a book written by humans and call it fact. Tangible evidence is what my brain requires.

What is really preaching from a theist exchanging thoughts with atheists?

If we understand preaching as trying to convert you to accept and practice a religion or faith, that is not my purpose here.

And how would you come to the conclusion that a theist here is preaching to you, namely, to bring you to accept a religion?

By way of curiosity, this is my third post here, do you feel any apprehension that I am into preaching?


About the Big Bang, what do you know from scientists of cosmology about the Big Bang? and whether mankind can or cannot and thus also should or should not think about what existed before or simultaneously with the Big Bang?

Suppose scientists among themselves are into exchanging thoughts about what they think to have always existed even without any Big Bang having ever taken place, would that be they preaching to each other?




Yrreg

I just want to give notice here that I am not into trying to convert anyone here to any religion or faith, for example, the Christian faith.

What I want to find out is what atheists do not believe in, and how they explain why they do not believe in the things they don't believe in.

Why do I want to find out what they do not believe in and why?

Because I am curious, and it is a joy for me to come to the satisfaction of my curiosity, because the satisfaction of curiosity obtains for me information about how other people feel and think about things, and that kind of a joy, namely, to know how other people feel and think about things, that kind of a joy is more delightful than eating, and making love with my spouse, though they belong to different kinds and levels of pleasure.



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"I just want to give notice here that I am not into trying to convert anyone here to any religion or faith, for example, the Christian faith.

What I want to find out is what atheists do not believe in, and how they explain why they do not believe in the things they don't believe in.

Why do I want to find out what they do not believe in and why?

Because I am curious, and it is a joy for me to come to the satisfaction of my curiosity, because the satisfaction of curiosity obtains for me information about how other people feel and think about things, and that kind of a joy, namely, to know how other people feel and think about things, that kind of a joy is more delightful than eating, and making love with my spouse, though they belong to different kinds and levels of pleasure.



Yrreg

The only thing all atheists don't believe in is Gods(s). Other then that it is only what an individual thinks is true. Atheists have varied beliefs on all things there are no right or wrong answers, to anything, to be an atheist. The ONLY thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief (or at least an extreme doubt) in a higher power.

Just tell me when you notice that I am trying to convert you to a religion.



I am curious, according to what I have just read, atheists just have no belief in god(s), what do you understand by god(s) which you don't believe in?



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Just tell me when you notice that I am trying to convert you to a religion.



I am curious, according to what I have just read, atheists just have no belief in god(s), what do you understand by god(s) which you don't believe in?



Yrreg

I think that you may be making the assumption that atheists have always been atheists. The truth is most most start out a theist on this forum that would mean most were Christians. A sad fact is many atheists have a deeper understanding of religion, and for this forum, the bible then most Christians. The fact that so many understand so well is a reason that many have become atheists, because we understand all to well.

If you stay true to form I'm predicting no true scotsmen.

Quote from: "Yrreg"What is really preaching from a theist exchanging thoughts with atheists?

If we understand preaching as trying to convert you to accept and practice a religion or faith, that is not my purpose here.

And how would you come to the conclusion that a theist here is preaching to you, namely, to bring you to accept a religion?

By way of curiosity, this is my third post here, do you feel any apprehension that I am into preaching?

Preaching is when you only post your views and neglect to participate in a discussion of those views...you haven't been preaching.  If you look at our rules, you'll notice the no preaching rule is directed towards both atheists and theists; we don't like preaching from anyone

QuoteAbout the Big Bang, what do you know from scientists of cosmology about the Big Bang? and whether mankind can or cannot and thus also should or should not think about what existed before or simultaneously with the Big Bang?

I already posted the basics of what I know from science.

QuoteSuppose scientists among themselves are into exchanging thoughts about what they think to have always existed even without any Big Bang having ever taken place, would that be they preaching to each other?

Then they would just be guessing and not practicing as scientists while having that discussion.  Science is evidence based...not just whatever a scientist happens to imagine.

Quote from: "Yrreg"I am curious, according to what I have just read, atheists just have no belief in god(s), what do you understand by god(s) which you don't believe in?

Right....

A theist is someone who believes in a god.  An atheist is someone who does not believe in a god.

God is generally understood to be a being/entity which created all that exists.

There are atheistic religions...such as some forms of Buddhism...however, most self-identified atheists do not follow a religion.

Why if at all is it important to atheists or to people who are atheists or call themselves atheists to not believe in god(s)?

But I really like to obtain in brief words what atheists understand by god(s).

Whitney writes:

God is generally understood to be a being/entity which created all that exists.

Yes I agree with your concept of God, that is also my concept of God.

So, just only as regards the concept of God, may I propose that for this thread we can say that the concept of God that really matters for people who believe in God, namely, theists, and atheists who don't believe in God, the concept of God is as follows:

God is the maker of everything in the whole totality of existence including the physical universe, and the author of the scheme of intelligent order prevailing in the whole totality of existence as described.

That is the concept of God that matters to theists.

Since atheists don't believe in god(s), that must be the number one concept of God that they don't believe in.


My question to atheists is why is it important to you to not believe in that kind of a God?




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"My question to atheists is why is it important to you to not believe in that kind of a God?

Because it would be dishonest to claim belief if we didn't believe.  I don't quite understand your question.

Quote from: "Yrreg"\
My question to atheists is why is it important to you to not believe in that kind of a God?

It's not "important" it just is. How about this, Why is it importantant to you to not believe in Sana Clause? The most likly answer is it's not important you just don't believe. Well thats how it is for atheists and a god, we just don't.

Wait, so your saying Santa...doesn't exist? *sob*


Seriously though, it is important for me to separate myself from being a believer. First of all I do not want to falsely claim belief, secondly faith based belief structures are harming and I want no correlation between faith and myself.

I think its important because I think most atheist are ostracized without reason. Automatically there are assumptions made about a person, when in reality atheists are just the same and just as different as everyone else. I think atheists come together because, like anyone, enjoy people that can find a common ground. In addition to that, atheists need a voice to keep religion from controlling society as a whole (my perspective, no necessarily every atheists or agnostics). I am a FIRM believer of the separation of church and state, and I think those who think that need to voice that.

But to answer your question in another way; read up on Russel's Teapot.

Of course it is important to you to be honest about your not believing in God.

But if no one is asking you about your belief or non-belief in God, why do you feel that you have to put up a public stand about your non-belief in God?

You will ask me why I have to put up a public stand about my being a theist, and I will tell you that as a matter of fact I don't put up a public stand about my being a theist, but I do engage in going to a Christian church service.

What I mean is why you have to join an atheist forum to talk about your being a non-believer in God, and also answer questions from people like myself, who enjoy inquiring why people believe or don't believe in some particular things.

I understand that it is because you need to get together with fellow atheists for mutual reinforcement, and because you feel that you are being discriminated against in society.

Can you be specific why you are being discriminated against in society, and wherefore you must unite for a common concerted effort to fight discrimination?




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"What I mean is why you have to join an atheist forum to talk about your being a non-believer in God, and also answer questions from people like myself, who enjoy inquiring why people believe or don't believe in some particular things.

Yrreg

Are there christian forums? Are there World of Warcraft forums? Are there Democrat forums? Are there science forums?

QuoteBut if no one is asking you about your belief or non-belief in God, why do you feel that you have to put up a public stand about your non-belief in God?

For one, this is an atheism forum and you came here asking questions. We kindly oblige to have an open discussion. However, have you seen the public displays of religion in our culture? People trying to mix religion and politics? People angry that a billboard states that atheists are not alone, yet religion billboards are all over the place, some threatening those who don't follow them with "Hell"? People saying a war was "God's will", and letting thousands of innocent people die? This is why I think people "like us" need to come together. Atheists don't take nearly as strong of a public stand as theists.

For me religion is a step backwards. It stops research in science, it obscures peoples views, and brainwashes people. It brainwashes people not just in a religious sense but also in the sense that they will follow whatever their priests or rabbis or pope or whoever else, no matter what. The pope just told people in Africa not to use condoms. This to me is the equivalent of genocide, this is a country that has a serious problem with AIDS and he's telling them to go bareback?! That is sick. That is why I think I need a voice of opinion. However do not use my view as the same as everyone else here. As I have stated before, atheists only have one thing in common.

I hope you don't shrug off some suggestions or comments of this page, if you are truly open to understanding. If you would like to have true understanding, read some books. Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins are good authors who could give you some perspective. Perhaps browse through the pages here and you'll reach some understanding of "our" position. So far, in my short time on here,  I think everyone here are very nice, well rounded, members of society.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Can you be specific why you are being discriminated against in society, and wherefore you must unite for a common concerted effort to fight discrimination?

A quick example, in my own home state, by law, I cannot hold a public office.  But most don't consider it to be any kind of discrimination.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Of course it is important to you to be honest about your not believing in God.

But if no one is asking you about your belief or non-belief in God, why do you feel that you have to put up a public stand about your non-belief in God?

You will ask me why I have to put up a public stand about my being a theist, and I will tell you that as a matter of fact I don't put up a public stand about my being a theist, but I do engage in going to a Christian church service.

What I mean is why you have to join an atheist forum to talk about your being a non-believer in God, and also answer questions from people like myself, who enjoy inquiring why people believe or don't believe in some particular things.

I understand that it is because you need to get together with fellow atheists for mutual reinforcement, and because you feel that you are being discriminated against in society.

Can you be specific why you are being discriminated against in society, and wherefore you must unite for a common concerted effort to fight discrimination?




Yrreg

If you can ask and answer your own question I don't understand what you're asking. I'm also unsue of your use of "public stand" do you mean literal or somehow metphorical?

Anyone trying to pass religious based legislation or rules, notabley Christ based in America, is setting up a system that is discrimintory to all non belivers.

If you look through this forum or others like it you will find MANY cases of discrimination against atheists.

My hope is that the syntax in this thread will improve. It is so difficult to understand a person who uses litotes all the time.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes)

Was wondering about that, too, McQ.

So I just wandered in here.  Why do I say we don't know anything about the beginning of the universe?  We don't even know when it or if began!  We can say, with high certainty, when the Big Bang happened, but not how long the universe might have existed in an uninflated state.  We don't know if perhaps the universe has been collapsing and bouncing back for all eternity.  We don't know if this universe was created by a collision of two branes in an infinite sea of them.  We don't know if the universe was a quantum foam that experienced cosmic inflation and thermal energy dump when a scalar body of energy at the Planck density randomly popped into existence in it.  We don't even know if the beginning was a causal event, because it turns out time is not a line, but that there is a second dimension which may grant causal freedom.  We do not know if our universe was created in another universe with completely disparate properties.  We do not know we aren't running on a computer simulation run by the Omega Computer (check out Tippler's Omega Point Theory sometime).  Finally, we don't know if the universe was made by a god or many gods, and we don't know the feature set of whoever made it in any event.  An infinite amount of deities may have created the universe, and failing all, the best I can say, even if I knew that it was created by a deity, somehow, is that some deity exists.  What ability do I have to tell you anything of a god?  Can I describe its method of creation?  Was it supernatural?  How do you know?

We don't know.  You're kidding yourself if you think you have any reason, outside of ignorance and personal preference, to hold a vague conception of some deist god.  You wouldn't know its motive (to inflict as much pain as possible?), its methods (quantum scalar energy insertion?), or, indeed, even whether it exists (did it ever? did it kill itself? does it not yet exist but will be created by us so that it can create the universe through an uncaused event?).  I respect your seemingly rational theism, but I don't take any of these possibilities as a truth, not yet.  Do you want me to say you're possibly right that some god created the universe?  Sure, it's entirely possible you're right.  Do you want me to believe you are right?  Why should I do that?  What evidence can you offer me favoring your possibility as anything more than just another possibility?

Quote from: "PipeBox"Was wondering about that, too, McQ.

So I just wandered in here.  Why do I say we don't know anything about the beginning of the universe?  We don't even know when it or if began!  We can say, with high certainty, when the Big Bang happened, but not how long the universe might have existed in an uninflated state.  We don't know if perhaps the universe has been collapsing and bouncing back for all eternity.  We don't know if this universe was created by a collision of two branes in an infinite sea of them.  We don't know if the universe was a quantum foam that experienced cosmic inflation and thermal energy dump when a scalar body of energy at the Planck density randomly popped into existence in it.  We don't even know if the beginning was a causal event, because it turns out time is not a line, but that there is a second dimension which may grant causal freedom...

You have just become my favorite person here. I did the "..." for obvious reasons. I guess I'm an agnostic atheist (still leaning waaay towards "no") because physics has so many suprises. However, I will hold the same point as I did when I was catholic, if there was a god, he is an unconcious god. One incabable of interjecting in events or having a voice in humanity, nor would he care. And if there was god who was judgemental, he wouldn't care if I believed him or not, only that I did good. If I am an atheist, he wouldn't care, he would only desire that I am good to others. That is why I think the bible is BS! The Bible portrays a selfish god who needs worship and praise! A real god would not need that! He/She would just be happy knowing people did good. Skurry is drunk.... real drunk, for that I apologize.  

Quote from: "McQ"It is so difficult to understand a person who uses litotes all the time.  roflol

Quote from: "skurry"You have just become my favorite person here. I did the "..." for obvious reasons. I guess I'm an agnostic atheist (still leaning waaay towards "no") because physics has so many suprises. However, I will hold the same point as I did when I was catholic, if there was a god, he is an unconcious god. One incabable of interjecting in events or having a voice in humanity, nor would he care. And if there was god who was judgemental, he wouldn't care if I believed him or not, only that I did good. If I am an atheist, he wouldn't care, he would only desire that I am good to others. That is why I think the bible is BS! The Bible portrays a selfish god who needs worship and praise! A real god would not need that! He/She would just be happy knowing people did good. Skurry is drunk.... real drunk, for that I apologize.  

Real drunk, perhaps, but you're not wrong.  The vanity of the Christian Jehova is a strange thing.  Its pet peeve is people not believing in it/its word/its son when its sole method of communication is a barely-relevant bronze age text and the same gut feeling that leads people seek out Krishna and Allah for.  However, I'm not sure if Yrreg believes in the petty gods of religion, the equally strange, selectively enlightening gods of the east, a deist god, or his own original conception.

Quote from: "McQ"It is so difficult to understand ... litotes ...

Quote from: "PipeBox"... not wrong ...

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "McQ"It is so difficult to understand ... litotes ...

Quote from: "PipeBox"... not wrong ...

. . . Crap, it's contagious.

Quote from: "PipeBox"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "McQ"It is so difficult to understand ... litotes ...

Quote from: "PipeBox"... not wrong ...

. . . Crap, it's contagious.

What's contagious? Uh oh... i got it...

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "McQ"It is so difficult to understand a person who uses litotes all the time.  roflol

Do not stop not doing that! It's making me not less confused!  :D

I know absolutely nothing about calculus and the political structure of Laos. Therefore, by using typical theistic extrapolation and generalization about atheists, none of you knows anything about calculus or the Laotian government, either.

[/thread]

 

curiosityandthecat wins the internet

Quote from: "Yrreg"Can you be specific why you are being discriminated against in society, and wherefore you must unite for a common concerted effort to fight discrimination?

I think you should ask the people who are doing the discriminating....I would assume they do it because they are so insecure in their own views that they can't stand the idea of anyone having a belief that is essentially opposite of their own.  

The only way to fight discrimination is to group together and try to dispel falsely held negative stereotypes.

Do you suffer any discrimination in law so that for example you cannot be accepted in government positions if you are an atheist?

I like to know about the laws which explicitly disqualify atheists from government offices.

Can you tell me of social discrimination in any manner by other people against atheists, so that for example you cannot find employment if you are known to be an atheist.


Or not being greeted "good morning" because people know you to be atheists.


Do you have any injury from God to your person or loved ones, or damage to you property because you don't believe in God, which injury and damage you are blaming God for.


I like to hear of all such discriminations and injuries and damages on you for being atheists or non-believers in God.

Please be specific, for example what laws in what countries, concrete instances of social discriminations from other people, and factual cases of injury and/or damage from God.



I like to know about all your concrete grievances which you suffer for being atheists, and seek to unearth the reasons why people and God inflict upon you the kinds of words and deeds which are tantamount to grievances on your part.



Yrreg

yyregg.... you aren't holding a discussion, just posting questions and statements.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Do you have any injury from God to your person or loved ones, or damage to you property because you don't believe in God, which injury and damage you are blaming God for.

Please try to understand the term "atheist."

We do not blame God for anything.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Do you have any injury from God to your person or loved ones, or damage to you property because you don't believe in God, which injury and damage you are blaming God for.
Yrreg

Are you angry at santa for that toy you didn't get when you were 7. The answer is no, and why, because you don't belive in Santa. Well we DON'T believe in god. You seem to be under the VERY mistaken impression that we say we are atheists because we are angry at god. If we were angery at a god that would require our belief first. Stop assuming we have some ulterior reason for sayin we are atheists. The ONLY way to be an Atheist is to have no belief in a god(s). Thats it.

Okay, so you have no grievances against God because you can't have any grievances against someone or something you don't believe to exist.

That is a matter for psychologists to examine, so for the present I will not press that point.


Now about discriminations from the law and discriminations from other people because you are atheists, do you have any concrete instances?


I am directing questions to you atheists about your worldview and other things because I like to hear what you have to say about the questions I ask you, so that I can understand you better.


Why would and should I want to understand you better?

Because we are fellow human beings living in the same earth, that is enough reason for me to want to know you in regard to your worldview, lifestyle, grievances in society, frustrations with the way things are in your life and in the world in general.

And this web forum is intended by the founding atheists to give people the facts about atheists, that they are not people to be on guard against, but they are just like everyone else who wants to have a good life and takes care to not be in the way of any other people.



Yrreg

And this web forum is intended by the founding atheists to give people the facts about atheists, that they are not people to be on guard against, but they are just like everyone else who wants to have a good life and takes care to not be in the way of any other people. -- Yrreg

I am sure that I read something like the above here in this Happy Atheist Forum, so I looked it up, and this is what I found:

QuoteMission Statement

At HAF we know that atheists are often happy ethical people just like anyone else. It is our goal to help dissolve negative stereotypes currently held towards atheists and facilitate productive dialogue with those of differing viewpoints.

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now." - Madalyn O'Hair


Welcome!


Link: portal.php (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/portal.php)

That is why I am asking questions, for the invitation extended above in the mission etc. statements of this web forum.




Yrreg

Disclaimer. My replies to these questions don't represent the opinions or experiences of other atheists. After all, I was lucky to grow up in a more secular country than the USA.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Do you suffer any discrimination in law so that for example you cannot be accepted in government positions if you are an atheist?
I like to know about the laws which explicitly disqualify atheists from government offices.

As far as I know, no such laws exists in my country [any more].

Quote from: "Yrreg"Can you tell me of social discrimination in any manner by other people against atheists, so that for example you cannot find employment if you are known to be an atheist.

Most employers in my country are rational people and are more interested in whether you are capable to do your job than judging people on their [non] religions. It is however known that (evangelical )Christian schools will not employ atheists or homosexuals. Most people are however offended by that Christian attitude.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Or not being greeted "good morning" because people know you to be atheists.

Never had that experience. Perhaps, that is because most people that I meet are not evangelical Christians and I don't promote atheism in public.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Do you have any injury from God to your person or loved ones, or damage to you property because you don't believe in God, which injury and damage you are blaming God for..

This question makes no sense, because I don't believe in a God. It would be the same if I would ask you if you have any injury from Odin or Harry Potter.

Quote from: "Yrreg"I like to know about all your concrete grievances which you suffer for being atheists, and seek to unearth the reasons why people and God inflict upon you the kinds of words and deeds which are tantamount to grievances on your part.

I'm a happy atheist. I have no grievances nor am I suffering. God is for me nothing more than a fantasy figure, similar like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Regarding the Arkansas law about atheists in office (5 second of googleing BTW)

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2009/02/in_defense_of_atheists.aspx
http://www.sos.arkansas.gov/ar-constitution/arcart19/arcart19-1.htm


Discrimination against atheists (another 5 seconds of googling)
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/downey_24_4.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistactivism/p/PrejudiceBigots.htm
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/02/discrimination-against-atheists.html
http://volokh.com/posts/1125342962.shtml
http://www.goddiscussion.com/4755/discrimination-against-americas-most-hated-group-atheists/comment-page-1/

I could go on with a resource like the internet it's not hard to find.

Heres a couple from this forum since you couldn't take the time to look

http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3199&hilit=fired
http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1692&p=20578&hilit=discrimination#p20578

From msnbc
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20922106/

I've Personally been physically attacked, been threated, been yelled and cursed at, had property destoyed, been called the most vile and disgusting names. When I was in the army and had an issue they sent me to the chaplain for help, knowing full well I was an atheist, which was the oposite of helpfull and discriminitory against my needs.


Oh and haveing no anger at imaginary friends because you don't belive in them is not an issue for pscycologists. Talking to yourself, hearing voices in your head, thinking yourself more important then you are, having invisable friends, and useing the above as justification for war, genocide, rape, murder, ect as religious people do is a need to go the the pscycologist.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Do you suffer any discrimination in law so that for example you cannot be accepted in government positions if you are an atheist?

I like to know about the laws which explicitly disqualify atheists from government offices.

Texas Constitution Section 1 Article 4:

QuoteSec. 4.  RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

QuoteSec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

WTF?

Seriously?

The way I see it, your kind of not believing in God is not the same as not believing in Santa.


Because you don't give any attention to Santa, but you give attention of a kind to God.

You write negatively against God and people who believe in  God.


For example, you make up so many arguments against the existence of God but not against Santa, and you call God names which believers in God are not happy about, because for them God is their father in heaven.



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"The way I see it, your kind of not believing in God is not the same as not believing in Santa.


Because you don't give any attention to Santa, but you give attention of a kind to God.

You write negatively against God and people who believe in  God.


For example, you make up so many arguments against the existence of God but not against Santa, and you call God names which believers in God are not happy about, because for them God is their father in heaven.



Yrreg

1.Nobody is trying to force me to believe in santa.
2. belief in santa is given up as a child so it has little impact on adult life.
3.no one is making pro-santa legislation.
4.no one (except mabye kids) discriminates against those who don't belive in santa
5.Everyone agrees santa is a fairytale. (not the real life saint Nicholas) We just think the bible is too.
6. Most of the anti god arguments work for santa but since no one over the age of 10 claims santa is real they aren't needed.
7.most Atheist DON'T "write negatively against God and people who believe in  God' they write negatively about any and all ignorance. Especially when that ignorance has a direct impact on our lives.
8.theists often call atheist names or make fun of common atheist beliefs ie; EVILution. Say I'm going to hell or "I hope you have fun in hell", even if i don't belive in hell, it is a disgusting thing to tell someone. Especially when they are an otherwise upright and moral person. So pot...kettle...black.
9. there is a rediculous amount of, very wrong, anti atheist propaganda ie; we worship the devil, we just want to sin, we eat babies (yes thats real), ect. Many Atheists try to corect these misconception though, teaching, discussing, good example, and in America the 1st ammendment right of free speach (to include writing).


(If any one else has more plesae feel free to add it's 4:30am and I have yet to sleep so I'm done for now.)

Mabye you should adress some of your original issues and our resonses rather then starting new ones such as this. Many people have taken the time to respond to you, it would be nice if you showed the same curtesy.

Quote from: "Yrreg"The way I see it, your kind of not believing in God is not the same as not believing in Santa.


Because you don't give any attention to Santa, but you give attention of a kind to God.

You write negatively against God and people who believe in  God.


For example, you make up so many arguments against the existence of God but not against Santa, and you call God names which believers in God are not happy about, because for them God is their father in heaven.



Yrreg

There, I made the font size relative to the importance of what you're saying. I hope this helps.

People eventually stop believing in Santa, either because they figure it out, or because they're told and accept it.

I give attention to the Christian God in particular because people actively believe in it, right now, and these people vote based on what some bronze age men wrote about how this god would respond to some things.  When people start telling me I can't hold office because I don't believe in Santa, I'll call them out too.

Imagine, Yrreg, for just a moment, that the majority of people around you believe in Santa.  Specifically, they believe that they will one day be gifted whatever they want in accordance to their works on the condition they already have faith.  They believe that although they will die without witnessing anything but the most subtle signs of Santa, they will be brought back to life on the day of Santa's choosing to receive their gifts.  They believe that not believing in Santa is a grievous affront to Santa which will not be forgiven, because although Santa is merciful, it is an act of the most proud, brazen, foolish individuals, and Santa will not forgive such individuals for this.  Those people will, it is believed, will remain dead, giftless for all time.  These people vote and try to align the law onto what they believe Santa requires of all individuals.  Now, how do you think these people would react to you if you didn't believe in Santa?  That's the world we live in.

Let's say it is a requirement that you believe in some gift-giving being to get into public office.  Do you want to lie to get into office?  Do you want to lie to your friends and family and just go through the motions of making a wish list with them every Sunday?  You really do see no evidence for Santa.  Is that the defining attribute of trust, of morality, of your worth as a person?  People who don't believe in Santa are the least trusted minority, are considered amoral because they don't believe they have to answer to Santa for gifts or a dirt nap, and they are evaluated as being blind to the reality of Santa.  It's considered an insult just to admit this sort of thing: if you don't believe in Santa, you should keep quiet about it.  If you have the temerity to admit you don't believe, or are brazen enough to expound your reasons for not believing, you are an instant pariah.  Some people tell you that you're angry at Santa, some people tell you that you really do believe in Santa, some people tell you that you should reference the carols more thoroughly.  They remind you, without trying sometimes, that you live in a society where Santa Clause is aways coming to town.  They consider it unnecessary and strange that you like to keep company that doesn't believe in Santa.  They consider it strange that you've read books about why Santa doesn't make sense.  A few of them wander onto one of the few internet forums you frequent to tell you that you're wrong, or possibly just to show you that believers in Santa are OK people.  You know that, though, because most of your friends believe in Santa.  And then you finally get one guy on a forum who says that you're mistaken, and that he expects to be banned because he knows you won't listen to him speak.  He claims you cannot handle the truth that Santa exists.  He indicates in his phrasing he doesn't think there's any problem with society's attitude towards you.  He indicates in his phrasing that you are strangely, overly negative towards Santa.  He thinks it is suspicious you relegate more attention to Santa than to the Tooth Fairy, who everyone knows by the age of 10 doesn't exist.  Par for the course.  

I'll tell you anytime in full honesty why I do not believe in gods.  It is (or should be) obvious why I want your beliefs out of the law and out of society's appraisal of me.  It is obvious that I come to this forum for the previous two sentences, as well as to commune with like-minded individuals.  I assure you, I'm not isolating myself from the market of beliefs, I have plenty of exposure to it elsewhere.  Now, what do you want of me?

I will come back later to the title of this thread, "What do atheists claim to know nothing about."


Right now I like to examine the animosity between atheists and theists, and see whether they can both be objective about their reasons for being hostile to each other.


From all appearances when I read the posts in web forums from atheists on God and theists in  particular Christians, even though they deny it, they do if I may use the word, hate God and Christians.

On the other hand, in the US the vast majority of Americans hold atheists to be the most distrusted minority in their country.


Atheists claim that they are being forced to believe and do or not do things which they as atheists do not want to.

On the other part the vast majority of Americans must have reasons to hold atheists to be the most distrusted minority in their country.


In effect, there are grievances from each side against the other.

What do you suggest could be ways and means for both atheists and the rest of the US population to adopt in order that they can be freed of their mutual animosity or hostility.


Let us start with words, what words from each side are said that are annoying to say the least to the other side, and why do they each side say the words they do say about and toward the other side.

Do you think that a good public relations firm can be of help to both sides for them to reconcile, because they are both Americans who are all and each after life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, wherefore it is to their greatest advantage all and each of them to live in harmony with the other.



Yrreg

Okay, at the same time that I am interested in the mutual animosity between atheists and the vast majority of people in the US, let me resume the topic of this thread, "What do atheists claim to know nothing about."

I have this idea about what I call the whole totality of existence, which whole totality of existence includes the physical universe as one of its components.


Do you atheists know about the whole totality of existence?




Yrreg

And I will return to my point. You seem confused, atheists by definition is just a lack of belief.Atheist don't mutually believe in how the universe began. If you would like to understand what the scientific community thinks, go to a science forum.

And I find the term "mutual animosity" offensive. Atheists aren't outcasts or living on the fringe of society. A vast majority of atheists are productive members of society.

You don't seem to be getting anywhere with your questions or thoughts, I smell a troll.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Yrreg"I am curious, according to what I have just read, atheists just have no belief in god(s), what do you understand by god(s) which you don't believe in?

Right....

A theist is someone who believes in a god.  An atheist is someone who does not believe in a god.

God is generally understood to be a being/entity which created all that exists.

There are atheistic religions...such as some forms of Buddhism...however, most self-identified atheists do not follow a religion.

There are atheistic religions...such as some forms of Buddhism...however, most self-identified atheists do not follow a religion. -- Whitney

I think that is not exactly the fact.

For Westerners who converted to Buddhism they might say that Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

But for Easterners whose religion has been traditionally Buddhism, the adherents of this religion not only believe in god(s), they pray to them for help.

And their most important god is the Buddha himself.

Go to Thailand and Burma, and see that Buddhists there are praying to Buddha and other entities who can help them.



Yrreg

You show complete and willful ignorance regarding the nature of atheistic worldviews, how atheists see theists, and the nature of worship, especially in eastern thought. Having said that, you are correct that Americans are especially hostile toward atheists, moreso than any other minority. Even immediately after 9/11, Americans still viewed atheists as the most threatening group.

Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority?

Quote from: "skurry"I smell a troll.

You win two internets, sir.

About the prohibition of trolling, if I may, I think that is not needed because it can be a way of getting people banned here or gagged here on the ground of trolling.

In the old Internet Infidels Discussion Board (old because there is a new one after the departure in protest of a big number of posters and persons in authority there) there was a very strict injunction against even just mentioning that someone is a troll or anything equivalent to such an accusation.

If anyone has anything against a fellow poster, he should report him to the supervisorial personnel, but no one is allowed to use the label of troll or its equivalent on any other.


The same can be said about the accusation of preaching.

For my own part there is preaching if a poster is conspicuously trying to convert people to a religion of which he is an adherent, for example, he says: "Accept Buddha or Mohammad or Jesus or Joseph Smith as your teacher."

Otherwise from my own part we are all inclined to try to make others understand what we are talking about and see things the way we see them.

If that is preaching then I don't think anyone will ever want to talk about anything to another listening human being and thus get penalized for preaching.



Yrreg

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv1257%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F61970402-vi.gif&hash=ddf442894661dcdd2ddf6eb08a0a821f2f2090fa)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv1257%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F61970402-vi.gif&hash=ddf442894661dcdd2ddf6eb08a0a821f2f2090fa)

you have now won all the internets for 1 week.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

QuoteSec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

WTF?

Seriously?

All such laws should be abrogated.

How? One possibility, get to the supreme court of the whole US to declare it unconstitutional.

The normal way in a democracy of the US type is to get congress to abroagate the law, or enact a new one where even people who are explicitly denying the existence of a supreme being are not thereby disqualified from government positions.


How do you get congress to change a law, in a democracy where the vast majority of people are of the heart and mind that men and women who don't believe in a supreme being cannot be trusted to hold anything to be inviolable?



Yrreg

I don't think any court can abrogate the constitution of Texas.  It probably must be amended through the congress.  I am not a lawyer, though.

Now, hopefully the congress would have the presence of mind to handle that amendment on their own.  What grounds could there be to object to the amendment?  You can't expect paragons of theocracy to get away with saying they believe atheists shouldn't be able to hold a public office, not in today's time.  It resonates to strongly of bigotry.  Now, not voting for atheists is a completely different matter.  Thankfully, the public impression of us is subject to education.  If we keep talking, people will come to realize that we can and do hold some things inviolable.

Quote from: "Pipebox"by PipeBox » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:51 am

I don't think any court can abrogate the constitution of Texas. It probably must be amended through the congress. I am not a lawyer, though.

Now, hopefully the congress would have the presence of mind to handle that amendment on their own. What grounds could there be to object to the amendment? You can't expect paragons of theocracy to get away with saying they believe atheists shouldn't be able to hold a public office, not in today's time. It resonates to strongly of bigotry. Now, not voting for atheists is a completely different matter. Thankfully, the public impression of us is subject to education. If we keep talking, people will come to realize that we can and do hold some things inviolable.

Now, not voting for atheists is a completely different matter. Thankfully, the public impression of us is subject to education. If we keep talking, people will come to realize that we can and do hold some things inviolable. -- Pipebox

Yes, education is good for theists and for everybody whatever: theists, atheists, specially of course unreasonable people of whatever system of unthinking.

Educating theists from the part of atheists will not be easy or even possible if atheists keep calling the God of theists Who is to them (theists) their Father in heaven a celestial teapot, a leprechaun, a flying spaghetti monster, a pink invisible unicorn, and keep telling theists that their (theists') thoughts are superstitions and their words are magic.



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Yes, education is good for theists and for everybody whatever: theists, atheists, specially of course unreasonable people of whatever system of unthinking.

Educating theists from the part of atheists will not be easy or even possible if atheists keep calling the God of theists Who is to them (theists) their Father in heaven a celestial teapot, a leprechaun, a flying spaghetti monster, a pink invisible unicorn, and keep telling theists that their (theists') thoughts are superstitions and their words are magic.



Yrreg

“It is a well-established fact that education, even Christian education, secularizes.” - Sociologist James Hunter

Atheism is picking up steam, and, ironically, it's capitalism, the bread-and-butter of the right-wing Republichristian camp, that's helping it happen. Postmodernism, which has been called the "cultural outer husk of capitalism", is a breeding-ground for apostasy, centers of education doubly-so. God is a celestial teapot, a flying spaghetti monster, a pink invisible unicorn, their thoughts are superstitious and their words are magical. People are just beginning to feel comfortable stating those facts without fear of reproach or violence (though it does still happen--death threats to atheists are common, as Whitney has pointed out).

Religious conviction is comforting and silly, Yrreg. Nothing more.

Well, that is your opinion.


But have you done any serious observation of how atheists had won control over half of mankind by taking over whole nations, but quickly in terms of historical time lost away the same half of mankind, by exerting all the powers of the state to suppress God and believers in God?


Would you like to take over the USA and govern it according to your atheist heart and mind, and will you last long, how long if ever you should succeed?


No, I am not an American, but I keep informed of events in the USA.





Yrreg

Resuming my concern with the issue, "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"

In regard to my inquiry whether you can understand my idea of the whole totality of existence including the physical universe, which is made by God, and He also put on it to keep it operating properly a scheme of intelligent order to prevail over it?




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"In regard to my inquiry whether you can understand my idea of the whole totality of existence including the physical universe, which is made by God,

Demonstrate

Quoteand He also put on it to keep it operating properly a scheme of intelligent order to prevail over it?

WTF?! Just because you string words together doesn't mean you've made a sentence....

Quote from: "Yrreg"Resuming my concern with the issue, "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"

In regard to my inquiry whether you can understand my idea of the whole totality of existence including the physical universe, which is made by God, and He also put on it to keep it operating properly a scheme of intelligent order to prevail over it?

Yrreg

Can you understand the pagan view of how the world works? Can you understand the scientology view? Yes, I can read science fiction or mythology and understand what idea it is attempting to explain, but that does not mean I will believe in volcano ghosts, winds gods, or a telepathic god. I group your idea of god in with all the other hundreds of imaginary gods. That does not mean I am a bad person, that I do bad things, or that I wish to harm you or those who follow your belief system.

You aren't going to win any converts and your arguments lack evidence. You are wasting your time.

I think we have answered you a hundred times about what atheist claim to know, and that is NOTHING!!! Atheists don't have answers to the creation of the universe. Atheists just think god is implausible. Scientist have theories about the creation of the universe. Ask them

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi33.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd59%2FSkurry%2Ftrole.jpg&hash=6f250be7bc3959f2f67820053d94614f1703b0ce)

I am not after winning any convert to any religion.

I just want to ask questions of atheists to learn how they think.


Okay, you don't want God to be mentioned.

What about a higher power?




I understand that many peoples don't accept God but they accept a higher power.




Yrreg

Yrreg, just curious, what is your nationality? Or more specifically, what is your native language?

Hey, lets not resort to calling Yrreg a troll. Sure, some of his posts seem a little incoherent, but he is trying to be reasonable, to give us another perspective. Just because someone disagrees with us, or just because they don't have a fully coherent argument, that doesn't make them a troll. We should be welcoming theists who come asking polite if naive questions. After all, preaching to the converted is boring...

Quote from: "templeboy"Hey, lets not resort to calling Yrreg a troll. Sure, some of his posts seem a little incoherent, but he is trying to be reasonable, to give us another perspective. Just because someone disagrees with us, or just because they don't have a fully coherent argument, that doesn't make them a troll. We should be welcoming theists who come asking polite if naive questions. After all, preaching to the converted is boring...

It's not just that there's no coherent argument, there's no discourse whatsoever.  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "templeboy"Hey, lets not resort to calling Yrreg a troll. Sure, some of his posts seem a little incoherent, but he is trying to be reasonable, to give us another perspective. Just because someone disagrees with us, or just because they don't have a fully coherent argument, that doesn't make them a troll. We should be welcoming theists who come asking polite if naive questions. After all, preaching to the converted is boring...

It's not just that there's no coherent argument, there's no discourse whatsoever.  

His arguments are circular and he's asking unanswerable questions without acknowledgment of stated points and empathy of views.

I'm not sure I dare get involved in this but oh well, I've hit the submit button so too late to back out now. Wheeeeee!!!!!!  :hmm:

I am an ethnic Chinese but of Philippine nationality.

My mother tongue is Chinese but I know the Philippine language and the English language.

Thanks for not being serious about calling me a troll; didn't I mention earlier that in the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board and I believe it is still binding, calling someone a troll is a grave offense, or calling him something equivalent.

If you don't believe me, then look up troll in the Free Speech and Rationalism Board something like that which is the renamed forum of the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

And find out why they don't allow anyone to call anyone else a troll or its equivalent.

If you think that my English is incoherent, then I sympathize with you.

Do you want me banned for being a troll, a preacher, and also for incoherency of language, and above all for lacking all arguments?

I suggest you consult an expert in English coherency to get an expert's opinion of my kind of English.

And a logician for my kind or arguments or exposition of ideas and presentation of questions.

----------------

Okay, tell me what do you know about the concept which I have already presented to you here:

The whole totality of existence which includes the physical universe.

As with the beginning of the physical universe, perhaps you want to claim you know nothing about it and will not be interested in knowing anything about it?

You are allergic to the concept? Or immune?

By the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

You are troubled by the existence of evil, like the physical evil of a person losing his arm for no fault of his own, which for you proves hat there is no God.

Ask a logician if that is any proof at all for the non-existence of God, but first tell him what is your concept of God.




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"I suggest you consult an expert in English coherency to get an expert's opinion of my kind of English.

I really don't think that will be necessary.

OK, I'm still in the maze. Is there cheese? I like cheese.

QuoteAs with the beginning of the physical universe, perhaps you want to claim you know nothing about it and will not be interested in knowing anything about it?

Very much interested, thank you.

QuoteYou are allergic to the concept? Or immune?

Neither. See above.

QuoteBy the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

Don't know, don't especially care.

QuoteYou are troubled by the existence of evil, like the physical evil of a person losing his arm for no fault of his own, which for you proves hat there is no God.

That's not evil, that's an accident. Nor does evil disprove God, it just suggests that any god that does exist might not be as much of a nice guy as his public relations department would have us believe.

I'll tell you what, you give us a working definition of "evil" and I'll tell you how I feel about it. I would not personally count anything like disease, natural disasters or that sort of unguided event.

QuoteAsk a logician if that is any proof at all for the non-existence of God, but first tell him what is your concept of God.

What does a "logician" have to do with this? I'm not going to invent concepts of God to debunk. You tell me what yours is and I'll comment.

Can I have cheese now? Squeek squeek.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Thanks for not being serious about calling me a troll; didn't I mention earlier that in the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board and I believe it is still binding, calling someone a troll is a grave offense, or calling him something equivalent.

If you don't believe me, then look up troll in the Free Speech and Rationalism Board something like that which is the renamed forum of the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

And find out why they don't allow anyone to call anyone else a troll or its equivalent.

You may not have noticed, but this is not the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. This is the Happy Atheist Forum. Their rules are their rules and not ours. A "grave offense" on their board has no more to do with this board than the price of tomatoes in Tuscany.

...但是你英语çš,,很好ã€,

Chinese, OK, now things seem a little more clear. After reading all of your posts, I thought you might be a troll because of your style of using English. It's actually not bad, which is why it seemed like you might be someone pretending to be foreign. But if your native language is Mandarin, I can kind of see where your style comes from.

On behalf of Yrreg, I think it's possible he is sincere and that some of the miscommunication has to do with the differences in Western and Eastern though/speech styles. For instance, his use of the word "evil": I study Japanese, which has many similarities with Mandarin, and words are used very conceptually. You have to look at some of his words and just interpret the fundamental concept, not the literal English interpretation. "Evil" is one of those words that can be misleading in Japanese (for instance "evil dream" = "nightmare", but does not necessarily imply evil intent), so I'd imagine in Mandarin as well. When he says "allergic", he might mean "disagreeable"; "immune" might equal "you don't care, doesn't concern you". Or maybe he is being snide, I don't know, but I just think it's important to consider the language barrier here.

Yrreg, in the US and Europe, atheism is essentially just a separation from religious beliefs. Some atheists might fit into the extreme category, but for the most part atheists simply don't have a belief in a god or connection to religious practices/beliefs. They still think about many of the "Universal mysteries" that probably inspired relgious thought, but they look to science to find answers. However, since science doesn't have all of the answers, some of the questions you are asking can't be answered.

Quote from: "Yrreg"By the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

I don't think that observation is very accurate. I don't believe God (Yahweh) exists or ever has existed, and yet I hate Him for what people have done in His name.

God does exist. I hate him. God exists as a concept. I hate the concept of god, because it is diametrically opposed to my rational naturalistic worldview. Hating god is not like hating a person. Its not personal.

On second thoughts, hate is a very strong word. I dislike god, and I diskike it when people try to promote him/her/it, especially at the expense of genuine enquiry and science.

Quote from: "Thom Phelps"

Quote from: "Yrreg"By the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

I don't think that observation is very accurate. I don't believe God (Yahweh) exists or ever has existed, and yet I hate Him for what people have done in His name.

Additionally, we can think a fictional character is monstrous in its fiction, as well as saying that if God existed, it would be malevolent.  We can speak on the hypothetical level of "if this were true, then" without actually being taken to say there's an actual god exists.  I happen to dislike the characters of Voldemort, Khan, and Palpatine.  If I said any of them were evil, or malicious, or that they angered me, you'd not even blink because it's understood by all parties that these are fictional characters who you dislike the conception of.  You don't understand this in the case of your god, so you try to make it sound as we hate something real rather than its concept, as though we're criticizing something real rather than hypothetical.

Additionally, it appears that earlier when you were asked for evidence for your belief, you deflected by saying that you weren't here to prove anything and that you just wanted to understand how an atheist's mind works.  What you are missing is that this is exactly how an atheist's mind works.  We haven't seen proof there is no god, we have not seen evidence for one.  We're not atheists because we possess some arcane knowledge, but because you haven't offered anything that looks remotely like true insight into the universe.  Sure, most conceptions of gods are logically impossible, and sure, we have reason to believe that many events recounted in holy books never happened, and sure, we now have far better, more descriptive (and predictive) explanations for occurrences in our universe than religion has ever given us, but this isn't proof that you're wrong.  We don't believe you because, all else aside, you have no evidence that doesn't rely on bad philosophy (Kalam, anyone?), assumption (something must have created the universe and it was my god!), and ignorance (the second law of thermodynamics prevents the formation of life so it must have been a special, supernatural event which only my god could fulfill!).  Making a case from and because of ignorance is regrettable.  Atheists just say they are ignorant and leave the assumptions for religious people.  And that takes us back to the heart of the thread.  Atheists don't claim to know what they obviously cannot.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"...但是你英语çš,,很好ã€,

Haha I was actually able to read two of those characters, even though I've only been studying kanji for a couple weeks...

This is awesome.

No need to invent for yourself as an atheist your concept of God to debunk.

As an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

If there is nothing outside your mind for you to relate to in opposition, and then you invent something in your mind to talk about in opposition to, that would be entertaining from your part for your own amusement.

But for people who believe in God as existing outside of their minds, they have a concept of God.

And you for relating to God in opposition, you have got to know correctly exactly what they understand by God, otherwise you are missing the target completely and therefore being irrelevant in your opposition to God.



I am asking you, you don't want any mention of God in your presence or in your perimeter of attention, what about a higher power?




Yrreg

I think you're forgetting that many of us used to be theists, and know exactly what you mean by "God."

In any case, what kind of higher power are you referring to?  The social machine?  Electromagnetism?  Thetans?

Quote from: "Yrreg"No need to invent for yourself as an atheist your concept of God to debunk.

You said "Ask a logician if that is any proof at all for the non-existence of God, but first tell him what is your concept of God."

I'm not seeking to debunk god(s) at all. I will respond to other people's concepts of god(s) but I will not invent a concept of god(s) to debunk.

QuoteAs an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

Provide evidence that that something is "already there". I cannot be in opposition to something that does not exist. That would be a waste of time and energy. I also do not oppose vampires.

QuoteIf there is nothing outside your mind for you to relate to in opposition, and then you invent something in your mind to talk about in opposition to, that would be entertaining from your part for your own amusement.

No, theists do a perfectly good job of of inventingsometing in their minds and I get plenty of amusement from this.

QuoteBut for people who believe in God as existing outside of their minds, they have a concept of God.

I would not dispute this. Where are you going with it?

QuoteAnd you for relating to God in opposition, you have got to know correctly exactly what they understand by God, otherwise you are missing the target completely and therefore being irrelevant in your opposition to God.

Then tell us your concept of God and I'll have a stab at it. However, one does not have to fully understand someone's concept of god(s) to debunk specific aspects of their god(s) character or behaviour. Do you really need to understand the specifics of the Christian God to state the concept of resurrection is without evidence?

QuoteI am asking you, you don't want any mention of God in your presence or in your perimeter of attention, what about a higher power?

And I asked you for an example. But then, that is one of the major problems with your posting style. You do not respond to questions. You do not elaborate on (often nonsensical) questions. You do not engage in conversation. You just keep posting the same old nonsense time after time.

Now I accept that English is not your first language and this is clearly causing you difficulty in making yourself clear but a rational discussion really cannot function this way.

Quote from: "Karras"Provide evidence that that something is "already there". I cannot be in opposition to something that does not exist. That would be a waste of time and energy. I also do not oppose vampires.

I oppose vampires.

One of my cats is a vampire, actually.  I'm currently trying to ween her off of blood, and so far I think I have been successful.

It took me a while to figure it out, but it turns out her kneading motions on my stomach were not a sign of affection.  She was intentionally making me bleed, then lapping up the blood.


I'm not particularly surprised.  She has always been my meanest cat.  She weighs less than all my other cats, yet she beats up all the rest of them regularly.

She does have a nice side, so this song fits her perfectly:
[youtube:17t4zkzx]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgLgk73Fuz4[/youtube:17t4zkzx]
She has the softest fur...


She will be completely calm, purring even, and then suddenly strike out ferociously.

QuoteMeow

My kitten, my kitty cat.
When she's content she purrs.
She thinks the house is hers.
But you won't like her when she's angry.
No, you won't like her when she's angry.
Angry, angry.
She's cuddly.
She's lovely when she's in a happy mood.
She loves her kitten food.
But she's got such an attitude...
Completely rotten attitude.
Rotten attitude.

Kitten is angry, kitten is offended.
Fur standing out and little claws extended.
Darting around and meowing quite a bit,
and throwing such a hissy fit.
I don't know what to make of it.

Don't touch her.
Don't look at her.
My kitten knows TAE KWON DO.
She can take you out, I know.
I've seen it before and it's not pretty.
She's really one ferocious kitty cat now.
(Oh no.)

She's deadly.
She'll hurt you.
She'll show you endless pain.
Her little whiskers are stained with the blood of those that she has slain.
Believe me, she will go insane.
She will go insane.

Kitten is angry, kitten is offended.
Fur standing out and little claws extended.
Darting around and meowing quite a bit,
and throwing such a hissy fit.
I don't know what to make of it.

Kitten is angry, full of discontentment.
Wildly attacking random pieces of lint.
Darting around in a psychotic blitz,
and throwing all these hissy fits,
but I still love my kitty cat to bits!

(purr)

She weighs only 4 pounds, and yet even my 25 pound fatcat avoids her.

Sounds like a delightful pet to have around.

Of course, if your cat or some human with delusions of vampirism tried to drink my blood, I would naturally oppose this. I am less inclined to hang garlic around my house to ward off the Dracula style of vampire, however.

Quote from: "Yrreg"As an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

This is the key. (Emphasis added.)

You come into this discussion with this preconception. We do not. Your beginning assumption is that there is already a god, and the atheistic worldview is simply a reaction to that god. This is not the case. "God" is the conclusion that theists reach, not the assumption (many conflate the two, and that's from where the confusion comes), while "no god" is the conclusion atheists reach. Please be mindful of this distinction.

I was just looking over these discussions, and Yregg didn't actually start trolling until AFTER he was accused of being a troll.

Hm.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"I was just looking over these discussions, and Yregg didn't actually start trolling until AFTER he was accused of being a troll.

Hm.

hes been trolling on the treads he hijaked started by Ibelievinhymn.

You are the ones opposing God, that is why you call yourselves atheists.

Now, you have got to have a correct concept of the God you are opposing, otherwise you are missing the target of your opposition.

That is being logical (or illogical).

How does an opponent act in opposition to the object whatever he opposes?

One, by demolishing the object he opposes, for example, you oppose tomato, so you go about destroying all tomatoes, tomato plants, and kill anyone who plants or will plant tomatoes.

Two, by avoiding the object of your opposition, for example with tomatoes, you flee from everywhere there is even just one tomato and all people who make use of tomato.

Now, I am a student of human behavior, so I am asking atheists whether they have got the correct concept of God; even though you say you used to be theists, but that does not necessarily imply that you do have the correct concept of God you are now opposing, or the essentially correct concept of God.

When you have the at least essentially and very important essentially correct concept of God, then you can go about destroying God and all people who accept the existence of God, or even just the correct concept of God.

In that way you will have done with God totally so as to exist without God.

Or you avoid totally all kinds of so much as an inkling of God even just in your heart and in your mind, by deleting all whatever reminders of God and the correct concept of God from everywhere or all people who accept the concept and the existence of God.

How do you avoid all whatever reminders of God wherever you be?

Don't be angry now, but I will give you a tip: quarantine yourselves in a desert island all by yourselves atheists.

Can you ever succeed to demolish God or to avoid God, even just the correct concept of God?

So, unless you get the correct concept of God, you are into straw-man fallacy.



About the evidence of God, that is a question that need not concern us here because it has been argued for since the knowledge of God dawned upon the heart and mind of people who accept God, and there is an impasse: you atheists claim there is no evidence, but theists claim there is evidence; so there.

Now you have got to show theists that you have got the concept of their God correctly, but as usual I fear you will try to evade this issue.


And still continue to groan and moan about how much you are suffering from God and the people who accept God.



Okay, suppose you just tell me here in less than fifty (50) words what is the essential concept of God for Christians, and I will see whether you have got the correct concept of God, by comparing your formulation of your concept of God with the formulation of the concept of God from Christians, because Christians have a way of stating in a few words what is the essential concept of God they believe in.

And please forget about continually accusing me of being a troll, what indeed is a troll but for your purpose whatever it is that will convince the owners of this forum to ban me.

But the owners of this forum don't seem to agree with your idea of a troll if that is your only idea of a troll, namely, whatever it is that will move the owners here to ban me.

And also about my kind of English which you cannot understand but manage just the same to react to my messages copiously in words.




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"One, by demolishing the object he opposes, for example, you oppose tomato, so you go about destroying all tomatoes, tomato plants, and kill anyone who plants or will plant tomatoes.

Two, by avoiding the object of your opposition, for example with tomatoes, you flee from everywhere there is even just one tomato and all people who make use of tomato.

Now, I am a student of human behavior, so I am asking atheists whether they have got the correct concept of God; even though you say you used to be theists, but that does not necessarily imply that you do have the correct concept of God you are now opposing, or the essentially correct concept of God.

Again, I don't agree with your observation. As an atheist I don't want to destroy god (or religion) or flee from it. In fact, I surround myself with religion in the forms of art and books. It can be a beautiful and comforting thing. Some of the greatest achievements of mankind were motivated by religious faith and devotion. I see religion for what it is: a construct by humans. It's a multi-purpose tool for humans to use, sometimes for good and sometimes for evil. It's still just a tool, and sometimes represented by tools.

Quote from: "Yrreg"You are the ones opposing God, that is why you call yourselves atheists.

Now, you have got to have a correct concept of the God you are opposing, otherwise you are missing the target of your opposition.

Let's get one thing straight, though I expect I am wasting my time.

I do not oppose God or god(s) (you might want to drop the capital G as yours is not the only god we do not accept is supported by evidence). I do not claim to speak for everyone but that is how it is for me. I do not oppose fictitious characters. I might make comments on whether I would like to know them in real life. I might make judgements on their morality in the context of fictitious characters but I do not oppose them. If we are speaking about any particular concept of god (your concept not mine as I do not have my own), I will comment on whether observable reality provides evidence for them. I will also comment on them in the same context as a fictitious character but I do not oppose them. To do so requires that I accept their existence.

Since your starting premise is so woefully innacurate, there is no point commenting on the rest.

Now either there is some insurmountable language barrier here or you are a troll. My money is currently on a combination of the two, tbh.

QuoteSo, unless you get the correct concept of God, you are into straw-man fallacy.

You mean like the straw man caricature that you are so gleefully erecting regarding atheism?

At this point he's just stopped caring about whether we think he is a troll or not.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"At this point he's just stopped caring about whether we think he is a troll or not.

Maybe he could go one step further and not act like one....

To be honest, I am not sure I am buying the idea that language barrier is his problem. If he is sufficiently capable of using English to state "you oppose God", I can only assume he can also understand the response of "I do not oppose God", yet he just keeps repeating statements like this. There is not even any attempted to discuss it in the standard of English he has shown so far.

Not specifically Chinese but I have dealt with people with varying standards of English on a regular basis and just about all of them are able to at least try to hold a conversation. Just about all of them will at least try and answer questions and take on board new ideas. Results of course do vary but I have yet to see any indication that Yrreg is even trying.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Back to atheists who claim to not know anything about some questions occupying the minds of mankind, I am thinking of drawing up a list of questions to which atheists generally answer to the effect that they know nothing, so that I need not bother them with those questions, except to say to myself and readers of web forums that atheists generally claim to know nothing about any answers to those questions.




This is the first time I come across an atheist web forum hosted by happy atheists.

That only means that I have not met all kinds of atheists.

Good, something new to know and to get better acquainted with.



Yrreg

I am new to this forum, so please forgive me for starting at the beginning.

Asking someone what they claim to know nothing about it crazy. This suggests on your part that those to whom this question is directed have a specific list of things, all things, about which they know nothing. Do you realize how many things there are in life that we don't even know about? If we don't even know about those things how could we possibly know that we know nothing about those things? If you know nothing about something, how can you know you know nothing about it?

Seriously, I would like to know exactly what things a theist such as yourself claims to know nothing about.

The assumption that a non-theist cannot be happy demonstrates a seriously limited experience with a variety of people. I am a newly de-converted christian,  and I can tell you for certain that many, if not most, christians are quite unhappy. The majority of christians I have known have been secretly tormented by an array of things that their religion has taught them. Many are tormented by the fear that they will end up in hell, that they are not "predestined to heaven", that they are not measuring up to the moral standard required of them to be "genuine christians", etc. Many are secretly tormented by the great gulf which exists between what they believe their god should be morally and what he actually is in both the scriptures and everyday life. They are also afraid to be honest about all these fears and torments because all the other christians around them walk about with a cooky colgate grin, pretending to be happy when they themselves are actually tormented by the same things.

Be amazed; Be very amazed that people who are not theists can be happy.

Okay, tell me what you know about God.




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Okay, tell me what you know about God.




Yrreg

Which god? The christian god? The god of the bible?

Quote from: "Yrreg"You are the ones opposing God, that is why you call yourselves atheists.

Maybe that could be disputed, but it would be quibbling.

Now, you have got to have a correct concept of the God you are opposing, otherwise you are missing the target of your opposition.

That is being logical (or illogical).

Quote from: "Yrreg"How does an opponent act in opposition to the object whatever he opposes?

How do you know your concept of god is any more or less correct than ours?

Quote from: "Yrreg"One, by demolishing the object he opposes, for example, you oppose tomato, so you go about destroying all tomatoes, tomato plants, and kill anyone who plants or will plant tomatoes.

What the hell kind of comparison is that? Fruit is not, never has been, and never will be analogous to god.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Two, by avoiding the object of your opposition, for example with tomatoes, you flee from everywhere there is even just one tomato and all people who make use of tomato.

Sorry, its a terrible analogy.

Now, I am a student of human behavior, so I am asking atheists whether they have got the correct concept of God; even though you say you used to be theists, but that does not necessarily imply that you do have the correct concept of God you are now opposing, or the essentially correct concept of God.[/quote]
The concept of god, as I understand it, in its most general form, is a supernatural entity involved in creation (or some belief systems which hold the universe as eternal, which I don't want to exclude.) Some gods are (conceptually) more than that- they interfere, they love, they smite, they interfere. And as a rational person, I oppose this concept, because it is not a satisfying explanation for any phenomena.

Quote from: "Yrreg"When you have the at least essentially and very important essentially correct concept of God, then you can go about destroying God and all people who accept the existence of God, or even just the correct concept of God.

So, tell me, what do you think I have got wrong in my concept of god, bearing in mind that the concept I gave was in the most general form I could think of, so as not to exclude any deity that I could think of...

Quote from: "Yrreg"In that way you will have done with God totally so as to exist without God.

Your logic is very, very fallable. Now you are saying, that if I have a good concept of god, and I can empirically or logically disprove it, then my atheism must be right?

Quote from: "Yrreg"Or you avoid totally all kinds of so much as an inkling of God even just in your heart and in your mind, by deleting all whatever reminders of God and the correct concept of God from everywhere or all people who accept the concept and the existence of God.

Indeed not. The concept of god is a powerful poetic, metaphorical and hypothetical device, and to exclude it in such contexts would make me less of a human being.

Quote from: "Yrreg"How do you avoid all whatever reminders of God wherever you be?

I don't.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Don't be angry now, but I will give you a tip: quarantine yourselves in a desert island all by yourselves atheists.

Now, that is just trolling. Grow up.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Can you ever succeed to demolish God or to avoid God, even just the correct concept of God?

The general concept of god? No. Specific Deity? Yes.

Quote from: "Yrreg"So, unless you get the correct concept of God, you are into straw-man fallacy.

I agree. In the same way as you have been constructing a straw-man of every atheist.

Quote from: "Yrreg"About the evidence of God, that is a question that need not concern us here because it has been argued for since the knowledge of God dawned upon the heart and mind of people who accept God, and there is an impasse: you atheists claim there is no evidence, but theists claim there is evidence; so there.

"you atheists claim there is no evidence, but theists claim there is evidence; so there"? Fallacy. You are implying, if A disagrees with B, then A and B must both have valid positions.  

Quote from: "Yrreg"Now you have got to show theists that you have got the concept of their God correctly, but as usual I fear you will try to evade this issue.

Already given my concept of god, it is open to critique from anyone. So I am evading nothing.

Quote from: "Yrreg"And still continue to groan and moan about how much you are suffering from God and the people who accept God.

No I'm not. I'm not suffering from god, I'm not even suffering from people who "accept" god, although plenty on this forum have and/or are.



Okay, suppose you just tell me here in less than fifty (50) words what is the essential concept of God for Christians, and I will see whether you have got the correct concept of God, by comparing your formulation of your concept of God with the formulation of the concept of God from Christians, because Christians have a way of stating in a few words what is the essential concept of God they believe in.[/quote]
I've already done better than that.

Quote from: "Yrreg"And please forget about continually accusing me of being a troll, what indeed is a troll but for your purpose whatever it is that will convince the owners of this forum to ban me.

You are a troll when you make attacks or jibes like telling us to go live on a desert island. You are reasonable when you answer our points. We don't, or at least try not to, discourage theists from coming on to discuss in a mature manner, but there is a line between discussing and preaching that you have crossed once or twice. In saying that, you seem to have the best of intentions, and I'm 100% for giving you the benefit of the doubt in this case.

Quote from: "Yrreg"But the owners of this forum don't seem to agree with your idea of a troll if that is your only idea of a troll, namely, whatever it is that will move the owners here to ban me.

That doesn't make much sense, maybe lost in translation, but at the end of the day, its an atheist forum, run by atheists, so you follow the rules of the atheists, whether or not you agree with them, if you don't want to be warned or banned.

Quote from: "Yrreg"And also about my kind of English which you cannot understand but manage just the same to react to my messages copiously in words.

What? Some of your ideas come out awkwardly in translation, but for the most part, they are awkward, straw-man, tried and failed arguments, whatever the language. Without wanting to discourage you...

I will tell you what I know about the god of the bible.

The god of the bible says it is wrong to lie. This same god told a spirit to speak lies through false prophets in order to deceive a king into going to his death ( I Kings 22: 19-23).

The god of the bible says it is wrong to murder and steal. This same god commanded his chosen people to murder men, women, and children just so they could take away their property ( Deut. 7: 1-5 )

The god of the bible, who wanted to teach his servant Job a lesson, allowed his partner in crime, satan, to kill all of Job's children and servants in one day ( Job 1: 12-19).

If, in case, you are thinking that all of this stuff occurred in the old testament and is, therefore, not applicable to today, remember that this god does not change ( Malachai 3:6).

With a friend like him, who needs enemies?

The topic of this thread is on "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"

At this point of the thread, one of the things which atheists to my impression claim to know nothing about is God.

So, please just concentrate on giving me what is your concept of God, and I will tell you whether it is the concept of God from theists who are predominantly represented by Christians* in the Western World.



If you have already given me your concept of God, please just give me the link.

Please don't write so many words, just keep to the issue on hand.



Yrreg

*Henceforth abbreviated into

prbc.[/list]

Okay, let me ask you this question first, so that you can conveniently tell me what you know about God prbc.*

Just answer yes, no, don't care.



Do you know that for Christians God is the maker of everything?



Yes means yes I know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

No means no I don't know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

Don't care means I don't care, period.

I guess that is a most convenient way for you to tell me what you know about the concept of God from theists prbc.*




Yrreg

*

prbc means predominantly represented by Christians.[/list]

Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Just answer yes, no, don't care.


Do you know that for Christians God is the maker of everything?

Yes means yes I know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

No means no I don't know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

Don't care means I don't care, period.

I guess that is a most convenient way for you to tell me what you know about the concept of God from theists prbc.*

Yes, and I don't care for your baiting. You have not been honest about your intention here and have instead tried to manipulate others. You have consistently verged on, or have actually trolled. You need to stop the baiting and trolling and have honest discourse. You also fail to have any realization that there are people here, listed as atheists, who were christians and who know very well what christianity means.

Consider my answer a legitimate answer to your question and a warning to you to that you need to be honest and not simply try to win an argument that only you seem to be allowed to frame. Additionally, you will not preach. It will not be tolerated. You can whine all you want about how you are treated, but you have been allowed quite a bit of latitude here, so just deal with it.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Okay, let me ask you this question first, so that you can conveniently tell me what you know about God prbc.*


Yrreg

I just conveniently told you what I know about god prbc.

Now you conveniently tell me why you want to be submissive to such a god that has worse morals than santa clause.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Okay, let me ask you this question first, so that you can conveniently tell me what you know about God prbc.*



Just answer yes, no, don't care.



Do you know that for Christians God is the maker of everything?



Yes means yes I know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

No means no I don't know that for Christians God is the maker of everything.

Don't care means I don't care, period.



I guess that is a most convenient way for you to tell me what you know about the concept of God from theists prbc.*




Yrreg


*prbc means predominantly represented by Christians.

That above is my post immediately preceding the present one.

Now I am accused of baiting atheists, whatever that means it means that atheists here so far will not answer or will not tell me what is their concept of God.

Anyway, is there any atheist here who will answer my question or tell me the link to where he has said what is his concept of God?


And this thread is about "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"



Yrreg

Hi Yrreg. All your questions were answered before. Why don't you read them? If you continue asking the same questions over and over again, you are just wasting other people's valuable time.

I know less than Yrreg because I prefer to learn true things. He has quantity. We have quality.  

Quality knowledge, such as passages from Monty Python and the Holy Grail and Mesopotamian mythology?

Quote from: "Karras"To be honest, I am not sure I am buying the idea that language barrier is his problem. If he is sufficiently capable of using English to state "you oppose God", I can only assume he can also understand the response of "I do not oppose God", yet he just keeps repeating statements like this. There is not even any attempted to discuss it in the standard of English he has shown so far.

Not specifically Chinese but I have dealt with people with varying standards of English on a regular basis and just about all of them are able to at least try to hold a conversation. Just about all of them will at least try and answer questions and take on board new ideas. Results of course do vary but I have yet to see any indication that Yrreg is even trying.

I agree, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, and even then I was being a bit skeptically trusting, but I think you're absolutely right. A few vague interpretations of words and slight difference in thought style does not explain these levels of absurdity.  That was definitely a bad call on my part.  

Quote from: "McQ"Yes, and I don't care for your baiting. You have not been honest about your intention here and have instead tried to manipulate others. You have consistently verged on, or have actually trolled. You need to stop the baiting and trolling and have honest discourse. You also fail to have any realization that there are people here, listed as atheists, who were christians and who know very well what christianity means.

Consider my answer a legitimate answer to your question and a warning to you to that you need to be honest and not simply try to win an argument that only you seem to be allowed to frame. Additionally, you will not preach. It will not be tolerated. You can whine all you want about how you are treated, but you have been allowed quite a bit of latitude here, so just deal with it.

And that was good call on your part, McQ. And more than fair.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Well, that is your opinion.


But have you done any serious observation of how atheists had won control over half of mankind by taking over whole nations, but quickly in terms of historical time lost away the same half of mankind, by exerting all the powers of the state to suppress God and believers in God? Yrreg

By 'atheists winning control' you actually mean, 'people embracing logic and dismissing farcicle notions of a ficticious sky daddy.' It is a natural state of being anyway. You have to be taught religion to believe in a god.

Actually, most of the world is still religious (by population) although atheism is a fast growing sector. As humanity and scientific discovery progress atheism will continue to grow and religion will become ever more concentrated and dangerous.

I really hope that when we start to colonise other planets, we will not take any religious people with us.

Quote from: "Tom62"Hi Yrreg. All your questions were answered before. Why don't you read them? If you continue asking the same questions over and over again, you are just wasting other people's valuable time.

I am asking for links in this thread, but so far no one is giving me any though they say that all my questions have been answered.

Okay, just give me the links in this thread to the answers to this question:

What is the concept of God as understood by Christians?

This thread is about "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"

And I want to know what atheists know to be the concept of God understood by Christians.

So, please give me the links in this thread which anyone here atheist
has come across, what atheists know to be the concept of God as understood by Christians.




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"

What is the concept of God as understood by Christians?

Show me a Christian who claims to understand their God. If Christians themselves cannot settle on a clear definition of God, how are we supposed to know what it is?

Mainly I just look at the claims made by Christians as I encounter them and offer my opinion, but I can't say as I have seen any two Christians describe God quite the same.

Edit: Assuming your intentions are genuine, a large part of the problem is that your questions are flawed to begin with and cannot be answered on your terms. You woulld be far better off trying to understand this and actually discussing the answers you do get, rather than repeating the same nonsensical questions over and over and over......

Good christ on a cracker, this thread could be used as the definitive case study for non sequitirs.  

Quote from: "Yrreg"And I want to know what atheists know to be the concept of God understood by Christians.

So, please give me the links in this thread which anyone here atheist
has come across, what atheists know to be the concept of God as understood by Christians.

Yrreg

Do your own homework. Try this:

1. Go to this URL - http://www.google.com (http://www.google.com)   It looks like this - (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa184%2FMcQ14%2Flogo.gif&hash=2bd465b78d76dc6ee494bc8ea959206671bcf0aa)

2. Copy the following and paste it into the search window:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Christianity)

3, Press the "Enter" key ("Return" key for Macintosh).

4. Read.

Also, try this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiter)

If you claim to not know the definition of a word, look it up.



And since you've continued your usual pattern of posting, this is Strike 2. You've been given ample opportunity to clean up your act.

Even better, just click on this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=God+in+Christianity).

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Even better, just click on this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=God+in+Christianity). :hail:  :hail:

 lol  

Why do you people continue to waste time typing responses to a troll?

Quote from: "McQ"Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:00 pm

[...]

And since you've continued your usual pattern of posting, this is Strike 2. You've been given ample opportunity to clean up your act.

Are you McQ a moderator here or even one of the owners here?

What exactly are you warning me now for the second time about?


---------------


What I want is for atheists here to tell me in their own words what they know to be the concept of God from theists prbc.*

Please therefore don't give me references to writers, I want to read your own words on what you know to be the concept of God from theists prbc.*


You see, in a web forum I think people want to read the thoughts of other people who write in their own words their thoughts, or what they know about the thoughts of writers briefly in their own words -- and then if necessary giving reference links to the writers.


As regards the allegation that Christians do not have the same concept about God, I think you are mistaken, because they have what they call statements of beliefs, like this one called the Apostles' Creed, and the first words of the Apostles' Creed say the following about God accepted by all Christians:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth...

-------------


If I should be banned now for writing the way I do, then I am disappointed that this forum has to resort to banning me for what I don't know violations.


Good-bye then.




Yrreg

*prbc = predominantly represented by Christians.[/list]

Quote from: "Yrreg"As regards the allegation that Christians do not have the same concept about God, I think you are mistaken, because they have what they call statements of beliefs, like this one called the Apostles' Creed, and the first words of the Apostles' Creed say the following about God accepted by all Christians:

The very existence of 38000+ Christian sects shows this to be the nonsense it so clearly is. That the basics may be the same does not detract from the fact that they do not agree, even to the point that some sects think the others are going to hell. There must be some pretty significant differences to justify damnation.

Quote from: "Yrreg"What I want is for atheists here to tell me in their own words what they know to be the concept of God from theists prbc.*

Please therefore don't give me references to writers, I want to read your own words on what you know to be the concept of God from theists prbc.*


You see, in a web forum I think people want to read the thoughts of other people who write in their own words their thoughts, or what they know about the thoughts of writers briefly in their own words -- and then if necessary giving reference links to the writers.


As regards the allegation that Christians do not have the same concept about God, I think you are mistaken, because they have what they call statements of beliefs, like this one called the Apostles' Creed, and the first words of the Apostles' Creed say the following about God accepted by all Christians:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth...

Yrreg

*prbc = predominantly represented by Christians.[/list]

First you want to know what atheists claim to know nothing about (which is a nonsensical question). Now you want to know what atheists think theists think about god. Why do you want to know these things?

Why don't you just share with all of us what the right answer is, since that is really what you are waiting to do. You are waiting for us to give the wrong answer so you can clue us in to the truth. Go ahead and get it over with.

Why do I want to know what atheists know to be the concept of God from theists prbc?*

Because atheists are in a relationship of opposition to theists in regard to the existence of God; so it is logical for them to know what is the concept of God from theists, and therefore I want to ascertain whether they do have the correct concept as propounded by theists prbc* about God.


About there being many sects of Christians which are not uniform in their beliefs, I am saying that they all believe this proposition:

God is the creator of heaven and earth.

You deny that is their common belief about God notwithstanding some differences in particular matters of doctrines and observances, then it is your privilege of arbitrariety, but you are not knowledgeable and don't want to be knowledgeable about the common concept of God from the part of theists predominantly represented by Christians.




Yrreg

*prbc = predominantly represented by Christians.[/list]

Well, I guess this is about as close as you get to actually engaging in a rationa debate. Can't sayas I'm all that impressed.

Quote from: "Yrreg"About there being many sects of Christians which are not uniform in their beliefs, I am saying that they all believe this proposition:

God is the creator of heaven and earth.

You deny that is their common belief about God notwithstanding some differences in particular matters of doctrines and observances, then it is your privilege of arbitrariety, but you are not knowledgeable and don't want to be knowledgeable about the common concept of God from the part of theists predominantly represented by Christians.

Like I said, damnation for not accepting your particular flavour sounds like a pretty big difference in concept to me. Just because a few buzz words or phrases may match up, that does not mean they are the same thing.

But OK then, substantiate the claim that a God exists who created Heaven and Earth.

What evidence do you have for his existence? What method did he use? Are we talking about him triggering the Big Bang, the literal account of Genesis or something in between?

You see, you still don't get it. You assert God exists, you substantiate that claim. This is not likely to go anywhere fast until you understand this incredibly simple premise.

You want me to prove to your satisfaction that God exists?

Please if I may, read the title of this thread, "What do atheists claim to know nothing about?"


Have I ever gone full time into proving the existence of God in this thread?

I am trying here to find out exactly what atheists know and what they don't know and what they don't care to know.

So that I can understand the way they think.


You see the proofs and disproofs of God have been going on and on and on for since when some men have come to the knowledge of God and accepted His existence, and subsequently also some men have come to the denial of God.

Can you or I say something more or newer than what has already been said for the last several millennia, and there are still just the same atheists against God and there are still theists for God.

Can you at least see the possibility of a new avenue to this conflict between atheists and theists, namely, to examine what atheists know to be the concept of God as believed in by theists, and perhaps you want to ask what theists think to be the essence of being atheist on the part of atheists, what is their common denominator?


Tell me in as far as concept is concerned you do not accept that the concept of God as creator of heaven and earth to be common among all theists today, predominantly represented by Christians, then tell me what is the common concept of God advocated by theists predominantly represented by Christians in the West, in particular in the US?

Okay, in brief what do you as an atheist insist to be the concept of God common among Christians, if it is not creator of heaven and earth?



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Okay, in brief what do you as an atheist insist to be the concept of God common among Christians, if it is not creator of heaven and earth?

Yrreg

The Apostle's Creed sums up the common concept of god among Western Christians. I know I don't need to write it out because you already know what it says.

I really do not fully understand what you are blathering on about.

I did not ask you to prove it, I merely asked to to provide evidence to support the notion that your god is even worthy of consideration. Despite your empty assertion tht the "proofs" have been available for a long time, they always seem to be conspicuously absent when a believer is asked to present one of them.

The title of your thread is so noted and I judge it to be nonsensical. You might as well ask what humans claim to know nothing about because you will get a similar range of answers (of any at all). Atheists as a whole have little in common other than the lack of belief in God. In just about every other respect, we exist in the same web of knowledge and ignorance as everyone else. What does a theist even know about God anyway? The operative word is "believe" not "know". You believe your version of God is correct. If you claim to know it is, you are simply not being honest with yourself. It is not like you can claim superior knowledge, you can only realistically claim that you believe something we do not, which is not in dispute. The very fact that you imply superior knowledge based on nothing more than the credulous  acceptance of empty assersions makes a mockery of your entire thread.

QuoteCan you at least see the possibility of a new avenue to this conflict between atheists and theists, namely, to examine what atheists know to be the concept of God as believed in by theists, and perhaps you want to ask what theists think to be the essence of being atheist on the part of atheists, what is their common denominator?

If you think that this conflict can be resolved by a better understanding of the concept of God (which I doubt), stop playing bloody games and increase our understanding of your concept of God but I will be asking for evidence to back up your inevitably empty assertions.

QuoteTell me in as far as concept is concerned you do not accept that the concept of God as creator of heaven and earth to be common among all theists today, predominantly represented by Christians, then tell me what is the common concept of God advocated by theists predominantly represented by Christians in the West, in particular in the US?

I do not and would not deny that God is typically claimed to be the creator of life, the universe and everything. So what? Substantiate the claim that he is or stop banging on about it.

But then, like I have already tried to tell you, Christians do not have the monopoly on concepts of god(s). You have not even demonstrated that the case of theists deserves to be "predominantly represented by Christians" yet, nevermind about whether we should deem their position to be worthy of our time. Popularity is not enough. You must demostrate that Christians are more qualified to predominantly represent the cause of theists. Why not Jews, Muslims, Pagans or one of the other faiths? How is yours in any way more "right"?

Now, we are not going to get anywhere here until you stop playing games and trying to study us like some bloody science project. Ignoring the fact that you have not established the superior qualifications of Christianity, Try starting this great debate here and now. Try opening a dialogue but the first thing I personally am going to ask you to do is support your position with evidence.

If you actually try discussing it with us, you will get a hell of a lot further than you have by repeating the same nonsensical qustions over and over.

I'll tell you what Gerry/Yrreg, I'll give you my definition of God. God is something that lacks evidentiary support.

That is about all you need to say really. Quibbling about the attributes of a being that you have not even established exists is like arguing about the colour of UFOs, before you even have any reason to believe ET is popping down to Earth for a spot of buttsecks, cattle mutiliation and a cup of tea to begin with.

Quote from: "Yrreg"

Quote from: "McQ"And since you've continued your usual pattern of posting, this is Strike 2. You've been given ample opportunity to clean up your act.

Are you McQ a moderator here or even one of the owners here?

What exactly are you warning me now for the second time about?


If I should be banned now for writing the way I do, then I am disappointed that this forum has to resort to banning me for what I don't know violations.

I won't spend any more time satisfying your desire to troll this forum. You already know I'm a forum moderator. It is easily visible in my profile/avatar.

Read my post again. Don't pretend to be unaware of what it is you are doing. Comply with the directives I listed or receive a one week ban from the forum so you can rethink the way you are currently behaving here.

Dear McQ:

I really don't see what it is in your avatar which indicates that you are a moderator.

You always seem to accuse me of bad intentions here, but I still have to read exactly what are my bad intentions.

I just don't read everything that posters here write because as soon as I see that they are not into the topic of the thread, then I don't read any further.

In your case I see that you are giving me a warning then another one, and I could not really divine what my offenses are, except that people here accuse me of being a troll, being incoherent in English, and for baiting -- whatever I am baiting them about or on. and you say I have dishonest intentions.


Anyway, if you want to ban me or suspend me for one week according to your discretion, what can I do about it?

Perhaps you should ask the owners of this forum first, because I think they are after people who do express their thoughts and not call other people names which they themselves don't want to be called with.


Anyway, just tell me what rules of the agreement I have violated and am still continuing to violate?


And I am leaving this thread because things are getting overly emotional.

And if you do ban or suspend me for one week, do you have the rule that or the policy to at least pm me for my notice that I have been banned or suspended and why?

Or do I learn about it next time I try to log in in order to participate in writing messages here?



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"And I am leaving this thread because things are getting overly emotional.

Perhaps I can recommend comomile tea to calm your nerves?

Quote from: "Yrreg"Dear McQ:

I really don't see what it is in your avatar which indicates that you are a moderator.

McQ's rank is very clearly displayed as "global moderator."  Just as mine is very clearly "admin."

QuoteYou always seem to accuse me of bad intentions here, but I still have to read exactly what are my bad intentions.

I've been out of town and have been unable to keep up with posts from the last 4 or 5 days.  However, I did just read one post of yours where you asked  questions like do USA atheists want to kill all religious people.  That is hardly a civil question unless you have a reason to think that is the case...in which case a source would be necessary.  If a moderator has had to warn you about other things, I'm sure you were out of line in other instances as well.  If you don't want to follow the forum rules or wish to ignore the moderators, you will be booted from this forum.  We enjoy civil discussions, if you don't think you can approach the topics here in a civil manner there are plenty of other forums on the net you can bother.

Okay, now I see it, global mod and admin.


My sincere apologies, but if I may, I was looking into the picture.

You don't believe that? What can I do, you don't believe me; that's it, you don't believe me.


Again, if I may, suppose you display your global mod and your admin in conspicuously big font below your name.



Yrreg

About my asking atheists here whether they want to see all theists killed, all structures indicative of God demolished, all writings deleted, that is very unacceptable to you atheists?

Unacceptable, namely, the asking them such questions or the idea of killing of theists, destruction of structures, and excision of all writings?


In any case or both cases, just answer of course not!

Suppose you ask me in turn whether I want to see all atheists killed, all their structures destroyed, all their writings extinguished, how will I answer?

Here is my answer: Of course not!



Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"Okay, now I see it, global mod and admin.

My sincere apologies, but if I may, I was looking into the picture.

You don't believe that? What can I do, you don't believe me; that's it, you don't believe me.

Again, if I may, suppose you display your global mod and your admin in conspicuously big font below your name.

Yrreg

Last chance, yrreg. Whether or not you saw it, the fact that I am one of the forum moderators is plainly visible without large font, as are the forum rules, which you need to read and comply with. Take the time to do that before you post again, even if your post is a response to me. At this point you have to prove to me that you are not here to preach, troll, bait, or cause any other form of trouble. I repeat my request/directive that you do not post again in this forum until you read and agree to abide by the forum rules.

Some of us expect all decent human beings to answer "of course not"...

I mirror McQ's above post.

Quote from: "Yrreg"What I want to find out is what atheists do not believe in, and how they explain why they do not believe in the things they don't believe in.

I'm new here and this is my first post to an actual discussion. So, here goes, and I'm only speaking for myself, now, and definitely don't mean to come across as being antagonistic.
I don't believe in anything because I don't believe. To me belief is the opposite of thinking. If you believe in something to me that means that all you've done is bought something that someone's selling.
I am convinced of certain things, and have come to be so convinced by thinking and observation. Being convinced of something isn't the same thing, to me, as being persuaded. Only I can make myself convinced that something is true, as far as it's possible to know whether or not anything is true.
This gets into semantics, I know, and I'm being pretty subjective here, but I'm talking about believing something versus being convinced of something, not about knowing or not knowing something if this makes any sense, but anyway to me believing is the opposite of thinking so I don't do it, I just don't believe. Not believing frees up a lot of space in the mind for what the mind is intended for, which is thinking.
As far as knowing or not knowing something is concerned, I'm not convinced that it really is possible to know anything, but of course I could be wrong about that.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Unacceptable, namely, the asking them such questions or the idea of killing of theists, destruction of structures, and excision of all writings?

Because I would hope most Atheists, and people in general find death and destruction sickening, and no something they'd want to carry out on any basis.

I mean, it should be clear to religious people by now, that many Atheists think badly of religion, particularly because it can drive people to kill other people, and destroy buildings, simply because they hold different beliefs. And I would hope most people would agree with me that the idea of killing people simply for holding different beliefs should be abhorred. We may not agree with those beliefs, but I personally will not kill someone simply because they have faith in a God and I don't.

If we asked you a similar question, you would most likely be offended that we thought you could carry out such actions (even though from an evidence basis most of the killings are perpetrated by those on the side of religion), so why would you even think that we would want to kill theists and destroy buildings?

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

Quote from: "Yrreg"Unacceptable, namely, the asking them such questions or the idea of killing of theists, destruction of structures, and excision of all writings?

Because I would hope most Atheists, and people in general find death and destruction sickening, and no something they'd want to carry out on any basis.

I mean, it should be clear to religious people by now, that many Atheists think badly of religion, particularly because it can drive people to kill other people, and destroy buildings, simply because they hold different beliefs. And I would hope most people would agree with me that the idea of killing people simply for holding different beliefs should be abhorred. We may not agree with those beliefs, but I personally will not kill someone simply because they have faith in a God and I don't.

If we asked you a similar question, you would most likely be offended that we thought you could carry out such actions (even though from an evidence basis most of the killings are perpetrated by those on the side of religion), so why would you even think that we would want to kill theists and destroy buildings?

As a matter of fact I would not be offended if you ask me a rational theist Christian whether Christians killed each other over doctrinal differences and political conflicts, because the truth is that they did.

And I would not defend one side against the other side in the killing.

I am against all kinds of killing over any kinds of differences, because I believe that mankind can resolve their differences without killing each other.

Now, I will bring to your attention that atheists killed a lot of religious peoples when they were in power during the cold war years, and that because the victims were religious peoples and atheists believed religious peoples should be extirpated from the earth.

Of course you will tell me that the killing was done from political motives and not from ideological grounds founded on atheists being atheists diametrically opposed to religious systems.

Well, you are entitled to your view.

But I still maintain that in fact the atheists during the cold war years ruling over communist bloc countries did kill peoples because of their being religious, predominantly represented by Christians, because religious peoples according to these atheists deserved to be extirpated from the earth.
 
What do contemporary historians say about the issue?


Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"As a matter of fact I would not be offended if you ask me a rational theist Christian whether Christians killed each other over doctrinal differences and political conflicts, because the truth is that they did.

And I would not defend one side against the other side in the killing.

I am against all kinds of killing over any kinds of differences, because I believe that mankind can resolve their differences without killing each other.

Now, I will bring to your attention that atheists killed a lot of religious peoples when they were in power during the cold war years, and that because the victims were religious peoples and atheists believed religious peoples should be extirpated from the earth.

Of course you will tell me that the killing was done from political motives and not from ideological grounds founded on atheists being atheists diametrically opposed to religious systems.

Well, you are entitled to your view.

But I still maintain that in fact the atheists during the cold war years ruling over communist bloc countries did kill peoples because of their being religious, predominantly represented by Christians, because religious peoples according to these atheists deserved to be extirpated from the earth.
 
What do contemporary historians say about the issue?


Yrreg

For someone who is so adamant about keeping threads on track (and ignoring pertinent questions to do so), you sure are straying from atheists' epistemological claims.

Tell me what pertinent questions you want me to react to or to pay attention to, but I cannot guarantee that I will be able to give you satisfactory attention, because there are questions which have been discussed to the point of impasse, so it is useless to continue on both sides each repeating their best arguments....




Yrreg

Quote from: "Yrreg"

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

Quote from: "Yrreg"And I would hope most people would agree with me that the idea of killing people simply for holding different beliefs should be abhorred. We may not agree with those beliefs, but I personally will not kill someone simply because they have faith in a God and I don't.

I am against all kinds of killing over any kinds of differences, because I believe that mankind can resolve their differences without killing each other.

Now, I will bring to your attention that atheists killed a lot of religious peoples when they were in power during the cold war years, and that because the victims were religious peoples and atheists believed religious peoples should be extirpated from the earth.


Yrreg

So, what is your point? Yes, christians have done more than their share of killing others for not agreeing with their beliefs. In the old testament, god commanded the Israelites to kill many nations that did not worship him. Roman catholic christianity is responsible for innumerable killings of both non-christians as well as other christians. The protestant reformers also killed other christians who did not hold to their specific brand of christianity. The early American christians killed non-christians. Even today, christians kill abortion doctors.

If you do not believe in killing over any kinds of differences, you are charging the god of the bible with wrong, since that is what he believes in. You, therefore, are not a genuine follower of the god of the bible.

Quote from: "Yrreg"But I still maintain that in fact the atheists during the cold war years ruling over communist bloc countries did kill peoples because of their being religious, predominantly represented by Christians, because religious peoples according to these atheists deserved to be extirpated from the earth.
 
What do contemporary historians say about the issue?

They say that what you've described is plainly false, and based on some fantasy in your head.  That's not what happened, and history bears this out.  You can maintain your position all you want.  It does not align with reality.

Quote from: "John09"If you do not believe in killing over any kinds of differences, you are charging the god of the bible with wrong, since that is what he believes in. You, therefore, are not a genuine follower of the god of the bible.

If you are genuinely interested in what theists have to say on this topic, you can look into this blog: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/divinely-i ... -genocide/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/divinely-inspired-infanticide-and-genocide/) posts March through June.

Quote from: "Reginus"If you are genuinely interested in what theists have to say on this topic, you can look into this blog: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/divinely-i ... -genocide/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/divinely-inspired-infanticide-and-genocide/) posts March through June.

I read the blog entry, but was unable to find all the entries related to that one. If you can link me to them, I will read them. I am most willing to read the views of others.

I was a christian for 18 years and have read the bible through and through, so nothing will be new to me.

In the entry I read, the writer did not explain why god would command genocide. He did confess his confusion over his present inability to reconcile his idea of a loving god doing such things. All he did was claim that Jesus opposed the old testament god's ways. It was almost as if he was trying to suggest that Jesus expressed disapproval at god's actions in the old testament.

Quote from: "John09"In the entry I read, the writer did not explain why god would command genocide. He did confess his confusion over his present inability to reconcile his idea of a loving god doing such things. All he did was claim that Jesus opposed the old testament god's ways. It was almost as if he was trying to suggest that Jesus expressed disapproval at god's actions in the old testament.

Which itself is also false as per the bible itself.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said this in reference to the teachings of the OT:

QuoteDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Like many Christians, the commenter linked above asserts (although somewhat implicitly) that Jesus went beyond all of the barbarism and immorality so readily found in the old testament, and that he provides you with a basic doctrine of pure love and toleration. This, too, is false. Here are just a small handful of examples supporting my point:

Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20â€"21, John 7:19


The words of the passages above leave no doubt, and make rather clear that anyone who believes that Jesus only taught the Golden Rule and love of one’s neighbor really needs to go back and read the New Testament again. When doing so, they should pay special attention to the quote unquote "morality" that we'll all see and experience if Jesus ever returns to earth (for example, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7â€"9, 2:8; Hebrews 10:28â€"29; 2 Peter 3:7; and all of Revelation). Yeah... be sure to pay special attention at revelation. That's some juicy "loving god" stuff in there.

This is all without mention of how this petty little god needs so desperately for people like me to believe in him, and how he teaches that I will burn for all eternity in a fiery hot place despite all of my good deeds and kindness... all for failure to inflate his ego... an ego more reminiscent of an iron age teenaged male than it is of an all powerful loving god in charge of the entire universe. For clearly stated reasons of “vengeance,” in the good book god has willed that non-believers will need to suffer constant physical torture for eternity. No hope of parole. No chance at pardon.  Nothing except a punishment for all eternity, a teaching which demonstrates plainly that religious belief is motivated more by fear and coercion than it is by reason, merit, or rationality.

Neither the behaviors nor teachings of god/jesus found in the bible qualify as “loving” or "kind" or "giving" by any rational human metric, and can only be described as such by someone whose mind is completely indoctrinated with delusion and made blind to reality.

Quote from: "iNow"Neither the behaviors nor teachings of god/jesus found in the bible qualify as “loving” or "kind" or "giving" by any rational human metric, and can only be described as such by someone whose mind is completely indoctrinated with delusion and made blind to reality.

My friend, that is exactly what caused me to dismiss and attempt to explain away the christian god's evil ways for so long. What christians wish their god was and what he really is are two different things.

Completely understood.  (I may have let the momentum of my point get the better of me a bit, but)  I was responding more to support and supplement your post in response to the comments shared in the link provided by Reginus.    

Quote from: "iNow"I was responding more to support and supplement your post in response to the comments shared in the link provided by Reginus.    

I knew you were. I was just giving my own agreement with what you said, since I was guilty of doing it myself.

All good.

Quote from: "John09"I read the blog entry, but was unable to find all the entries related to that one. If you can link me to them, I will read them. I am most willing to read the views of others.

Sure, here are the other ones (I've only read the first 6 or so):
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/what (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/what)’s-at-stake-in-trying-to-explain-the-violent-god-of-the-old-testament/
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/the-violen ... re-of-god/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/the-violent-strand-of-the-old-testament-and-our-picture-of-god/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/ot-violenc ... -behavior/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/ot-violence-and-christian-behavior/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/could-old- ... -mistaken/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/could-old-testament-warriors-have-been-mistaken/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-defense- ... rs-thesis/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-defense-of-ellers-thesis/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-critique ... rs-thesis/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-critique-of-ellers-thesis/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/craigie-th ... nt-part-i/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/craigie-the-problem-of-war-in-the-old-testament-part-i/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/revealing- ... e-part-ii/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/revealing-the-horror-of-war-review-of-craigie-part-ii/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-negative ... aigie-iii/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/a-negative-object-lesson-review-of-craigie-iii/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/)“shadow”-and-“reality”/
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/the-teleol ... -violence/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/the-teleological-exegetical-principle-and-ot-violence/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/whats-up-w ... -nephilim/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/whats-up-with-the-nephilim/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/yahwehs-wa ... -nephilim/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/yahwehs-war-against-the-nephilim/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/heiser-cla ... my-review/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/heiser-clarifies-misunderstandings-in-my-review/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/boyd-and-h ... -question/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/boyd-and-heiser-dialogue-on-the-nephilim-question/)
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/creach-and ... y-destroy/ (http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/creach-and-the-command-to-utterly-destroy/)

Good luck going over all of that  .

Quote from: "Yrreg"

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

Quote from: "Yrreg"But I still maintain that in fact the atheists during the cold war years ruling over communist bloc countries did kill peoples because of their being religious, predominantly represented by Christians, because religious peoples according to these atheists deserved to be extirpated from the earth.
 
What do contemporary historians say about the issue?

I suggest you brush up on history, although it is true that the many of the leaders of the soviet union were atheist and that they committed many atrocities, you've fallen into the fallacy of correlation = causation (well this isn't statistics, but it's like saying that because some tyrant owned birds that all bird owners share in the responsibility). These leaders did not kill religious people because they didn't conform to their atheism, they did such things because religion was an alternate power that had as much if not more sway over people then they did. They did not like anyone having more power then them, so they killed them. Power struggle, not 'you don't believe in God so you must die'. Tyrants have a choice to make:

1) Object to religion, as it's an alternate power that may not agree with you.
2) Embrace religion, say you're on God's mission, appeal to peoples religion to follow you.

Those tyrants are still tyrannical independent of their religious views.

Quote from: "Reginus"Good luck going over all of that   .

OK, I've read several posts (basically all of March '08) in the blog you have referenced.  I think this is a very interesting topic, and deserves it's own thread.  Though there has been a bit of acrimony in the dialog between Yrreg and some of the other members of this forum, I believe that it's worthwhile to try to maintain this thread as the place to discuss his questions and various answers.

Thus for those of you who are interested in exploring this line of apologetics, I think I'll start another thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3818) in the Religion section...

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

Quote from: "Yrreg"

Quote from: "Arctonyx"

From Yrreg:
But I still maintain that in fact the atheists during the cold war years ruling over communist bloc countries did kill peoples because of their being religious, predominantly represented by Christians, because religious peoples according to these atheists deserved to be extirpated from the earth.
 
What do contemporary historians say about the issue?

I suggest you brush up on history, although it is true that the many of the leaders of the soviet union were atheist and that they committed many atrocities, you've fallen into the fallacy of correlation = causation (well this isn't statistics, but it's like saying that because some tyrant owned birds that all bird owners share in the responsibility). These leaders did not kill religious people because they didn't conform to their atheism, they did such things because religion was an alternate power that had as much if not more sway over people then they did. They did not like anyone having more power then them, so they killed them. Power struggle, not 'you don't believe in God so you must die'. Tyrants have a choice to make:

1) Object to religion, as it's an alternate power that may not agree with you.
2) Embrace religion, say you're on God's mission, appeal to peoples religion to follow you.

Those tyrants are still tyrannical independent of their religious views.

Well, you have your opinion.

Perhaps one day those religious peoples killed in atheist-communist regimes will take a poll, I mean their countrymen, to find out why they were killed: for being religious or because of wrong politics.


Yrreg

Fyi everyone, Yrreg is on a one week ban for disregarding previous moderator requests.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Perhaps one day those religious peoples killed in atheist-communist regimes will take a poll, I mean their countrymen, to find out why they were killed: for being religious or because of wrong politics.

Truth is not determined by popular opinion, and regardless of what such a poll might show, the reason for their being killed does not root itself in the rejection of theism... aka atheism.  You can repeat your false assertion all you want, but repetition alone does not validate ones argument.

Quote from: "Yrreg"Perhaps one day those religious peoples killed in atheist-communist regimes will take a poll, I mean their countrymen, to find out why they were killed: for being religious or because of wrong politics.

History is not written via polls, it's written by historians with various agendas.  So it's actually possible to find historians who will agree with your interpretation of the motivation behind the destruction of churches and imprisonment and execution of religious leaders in Communist countries.  They are exclusively Christian historians, who want to portray events in a particular light.  I'm not sure what credentials they might have, but I found at least some writing that followed that line.

1) It fulfills the prophecy that believers in Jesus will be persecuted for their beliefs.
2) It's convenient to portray atheism as violently anti-Christian, and thus attempt to draw attention away from the undeniable history of violence motivated (partly or wholly) by Christianity.

If one believes that all atheists are under the influence of Satan (and that does seem to be a sub-text of several of your questions here, correct me if I'm wrong) then of course they want to attack Christian churches simply because they are at war with the Christian god.  Why then, would they want to attack (for instance) Buddhist monks and temples? I mean, being non-Christians, Buddhists are at least deluded by Satan, and therefore should be in league with atheists.
  The simple fact is that a totalitarian regime will not countenance any competition when it comes to controlling the population.  Although it's rarely or never self-acknowledged, religion is to a great extent a means of controlling people, and thus is in direct competition with any regime that does not co-opt it.  Did the Bolsheviks and Stalin purge and imprison/murder Mensheviks (those who were unlucky or foolish enough not to emigrate) because of religion?  No, they were seen as competition, and therefore had to be eliminated.

(I was writing this post and did not see the two previous until after I submitted it, but I figured, "what the heck," so here it is anyway.)

Quote from: "Yrreg"Perhaps one day those religious peoples killed in atheist-communist regimes will take a poll, I mean their countrymen, to find out why they were killed: for being religious or because of wrong politics.


Yrreg

Then we can take a poll as to whether penicillin works, or to whether being shot is painful, or to whether ducks can swim.

Quote from: "Yrreg"please tell me on what questions do you claim to know nothing about.

I guess this is like saying "Atheists sure do know alot!"

And that's why we don't believe in God.

Shoot did I miss the party?

Hold on! I brought some Kahlua! Don't go...