Happy Atheist Forum

I was on here ages ago and loved this place, so I decided to return with a need for some advice.

A few weeks ago I made the mistake of letting it slip I was an Atheist to my parents. Now my dad is fine, but my mom is ready to disown me. She makes little comments daily about it, like handing me a bible and saying, "Here, you might learn something" when we're cleaning or commenting on my ethics. I'm starting to feel like I should just lie and say I converted back to Christianity. What do you guys think?

Do not back down. There is no need to lie about something you believe in. Tell your mom that you respect Christianity and your not going to force your views on her and she should not try to force hers on you. Say after all the constitution warrants me freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion. I have found in my experience with my parents that you need to take the high road when talking about your beliefs. Don't get into a religious debate and if you get in trouble just walk away. If she continues to hand you the bible say something like "Sorry, but i don't believe in fairy tales anymore" Use humor or take the moral high ground to play it off and try to avoid a full blown confrontation or an enormous religious debate. If you do into a big debate just argue your reasoning and make it short and sweet, because its is generally impossible to triumph against ignorance.

Just my 2 cents.

Don't make a big deal out of it, just keep treating both of your parents well and she'll eventually get over it.

Quote from: "Sheeplauncher"Do not back down. There is no need to lie about something you believe in. Tell your mom that you respect Christianity and your not going to force your views on her and she should not try to force hers on you. Say after all the constitution warrants me freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion. I have found in my experience with my parents that you need to take the high road when talking about your beliefs. Don't get into a religious debate and if you get in trouble just walk away. If she continues to hand you the bible say something like "Sorry, but i don't believe in fairy tales anymore" Use humor or take the moral high ground to play it off and try to avoid a full blown confrontation or an enormous religious debate. If you do into a big debate just argue your reasoning and make it short and sweet, because its is generally impossible to triumph against ignorance.

Just my 2 cents.

I second this.

I also agree with Sheeplauncher. Don't back down. It's important that your mom realizes you're still the same person, whether you believe in God or not.

Thanks guys, I guess you're right. I wish she would just start an argument, the biting comments kinda eat at me. I'd like to get it all over with.

And I can see how that fairytale joke would go over. Very very badly. She already flipped out on me once because I was visiting a site that detailed bible contradictions. Said if I kept reading that trash I was living with relatives...

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Thanks guys, I guess you're right. I wish she would just start an argument, the biting comments kinda eat at me. I'd like to get it all over with.

And I can see how that fairytale joke would go over. Very very badly. She already flipped out on me once because I was visiting a site that detailed bible contradictions. Said if I kept reading that trash I was living with relatives...

That's a shame. I would say "Can't we just agree to disagree?". I think most religious people feel a bit threatened by atheists simply for their skepticism. Just let her know you don't want one difference in belief to come between you.

Hope it goes well for you.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Thanks guys, I guess you're right. I wish she would just start an argument, the biting comments kinda eat at me. I'd like to get it all over with.

And I can see how that fairytale joke would go over. Very very badly. She already flipped out on me once because I was visiting a site that detailed bible contradictions. Said if I kept reading that trash I was living with relatives...

That really sucks. I hope she gets over herself soon...you're her kid, after all.

BTW, what's the URL to that site? I'd like to check it out.

I was once in the position you were in.

My parents made a surprise visit to my dorm when I was at the height of my exploration of atheism. I had Dawkins and Hitchens etc all over my desk and on my night stand; my crucifix was taken off the wall as well as my rosary and Patron Saint Medallion. (Previously they had found a copy of the Koran in my backpack when I was exploring other equally ridiculous religions.)

They were shocked and appalled. They asked me why and I told them exactly why. Having read the bible, I found the text useless except as an effective way to waste paper. (It was also at this time that I discovered that neither of them had actually read the bible cover to cover, that I was the strange party for having read it, and having dared them they said [to my surprise] that the bible wasn't necessary to be a Christian. I guessed the Pope had been sorely mistaken.) Having looked into other faiths I found them all equally dim in explaining phenomenon especially when the candle of faith is stood beside the roaring galactic furnace of science; they were all worthless guides for morality, full of unfulfillable commands, internal contradictions and incoherency; even chronologically they have no internal coherency and an even more wretched parallel to how we know things actually occurred; the few external records of biblical events are specious at best (that Josephus could be an orthodox Jew his whole life and still write that there was a man named Jesus who was the Christ and have that phrasing in any form appear only ONCE -- THAT THE SAVIOR OF MAN KIND, WHO COULD RAISE THE FUCKING DEAD, CAME AND WENT AND A HISTORIAN WOULD ONLY MAKE ONE REMARK IN PASSING ON HIM seems a bit suspicious and reeks of tampering).

I told them that I did not believe in a god of any kind; that I truly, honestly, and totally revoked any and all proclamations stating otherwise.

It's only been about a year but they've accepted that I've become a total rationalist. I discovered recently that my brother and sister are also of the same mind and while my parents have hope that we will return to the church I doubt that our occasional visits to the building where an effigy of a murder victim is nailed to a board will ever go beyond that.

Just give it time. Your mom is worried about your soul as my parents were for mine. Telling them that souls don't exist won't fix the problem, believe me. Just keep on and be consistent. Don't be wishy washy or they won't take it seriously.

Also, go a step further. Go get a nice thick list of stupid shit from the bible. Whenever your mom hands you a verse, have one on you at all times to give back.

Oh shi-

I just realized you're in West Virginia -- um -- oh dear.

Ok. I dunno -- are you an adult yet?

Quote from: "Chimera"

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Thanks guys, I guess you're right. I wish she would just start an argument, the biting comments kinda eat at me. I'd like to get it all over with.

And I can see how that fairytale joke would go over. Very very badly. She already flipped out on me once because I was visiting a site that detailed bible contradictions. Said if I kept reading that trash I was living with relatives...

That really sucks. I hope she gets over herself soon...you're her kid, after all.

BTW, what's the URL to that site? I'd like to check it out.

I'm going to guess it's this one:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

It's certainly one of the best.

Yep, I'm in a tiny backwoods town in southern West Virginia. Atheists are a bit of a rarity. One friend, when I told him, actually asked me how that was possible. That's actually the same thing I asked my best friend when I was 10, everybody had kept the word Atheist hidden from me till then. And I'm 16.

That's the site. Thanks for the link too, I'd lost it and was gonna have to track it down again.

Hi I'm also an Atheist in a total believer community, lets be Best Friends 8D

I'm in a Catholic part of N. Ireland so...yeah, I sort of know the feeling. I'd try and be nice about it all at first, like ask her politely why she's doing what she's doing when you're not doing anything of the sort to her. Or you could do what I did; In the heat of an argument once with my Mother I shouted “What is it about Atheists that you hate/dislike/are afraid of?” (It was summat like that, I can't remember exactly because I was Rage Mode) to which she told me that her preconceived notion of them was that they would try and force any Believer to believe otherwise. I felt pretty insulted that she thought I was one of Those Atheists and calmly told her that I won't do anything of the sort, so long as she left me be to believe what I want.

Hopefully you won't be shouting that in the middle of an argument but you could just try talking to them. Oh, and try to get your Dad to convince your Mum that it's all good. I'm assuming he's totally fine with it otherwise you wouldn't have said that he thought it was fine |D;;

Catholics in N. Ireland? I didn't even think that was possible.

But yeah, cozy up to your dad, he's probably going to be your only friend in all this. Find some kind of neutral ground with him and grow something on that.

I'm still living at home because finding a job right out of college is fucking impossible and both of my parents are Right Wing Catholics. But they recognize that I am an adult (which, unfortunately, isn't an argument you can use effectively just yet) and when we do talk about my atheism and why I don't believe in the big mall cop in the sky I go at it like any other bad argument and ultimately I win because religion at all levels is indefensible.

If I was in your shoes, I would do two things: 1) get close to your dad because if your mom flies off the handle he may be the only one to keep her in check, 2) go about your atheism quietly, i.e. do your reading quietly, away from prying eyes; but if challenged don't be afraid of confronting it.

And always be sure of yourself. Find the nonsense bible passages, read the critiques of biblical chronology, understand fully and totally why religion is a bad argument and why faith is exaggerated superstition. You'll feel better and more sure about yourself and the world around you, I guarantee.

QuoteCatholics in N. Ireland? I didn't even think that was possible.

There most certainly are Catholics in N.Ireland and I expect friction between the two sides is a significant contributing factor to the problems there.

Me, I have it pretty easy as few people really care if you don't believe, over here in England. I count myself lucky I do not live somewhere they take religion more seriously.

Quoteshe told me that her preconceived notion of them was that they would try and force any Believer to believe otherwise.

I think there is a saying about pots and kettles that fits here.

My dad is unhappy about it, as is to be expected, but he says religion is a personal choice and it's not his place to do anything more than give his views on it.

Though I would like to have an argument to end it all I can't stand debating religion with family. She'll present her arguments sometimes and, though I have answers that leave her point invalid, I usually just say I don't know or that I'll think about it.

Lately she's on this kick about I must be a Christian since I believe ghosts could be real.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"My dad is unhappy about it, as is to be expected, but he says religion is a personal choice and it's not his place to do anything more than give his views on it.

Though I would like to have an argument to end it all I can't stand debating religion with family. She'll present her arguments sometimes and, though I have answers that leave her point invalid, I usually just say I don't know or that I'll think about it.

Lately she's on this kick about I must be a Christian since I believe ghosts could be real.

Atheism isn't really a choice any more then no longer beliving in Santa Clause is a choice. When evidence in no longer stong enough to support a belief you simply stop believing.

Ghosts have nothing to do with Atheism. Atheism is the simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. The Idea of ghosts existing, while often connected with religion, is not dependant on religion. While I personally don't belive in ghosts I do think there is a great many things we don't yet know or understand and the existance of ghosts, while unlikely, is not impossible.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"My dad is unhappy about it, as is to be expected, but he says religion is a personal choice and it's not his place to do anything more than give his views on it.

Though I would like to have an argument to end it all I can't stand debating religion with family. She'll present her arguments sometimes and, though I have answers that leave her point invalid, I usually just say I don't know or that I'll think about it.

Don't concede, make her points invalid. Every time she "wins" it just reinforces her unjustified faith and makes her think she's winning you over and ultimately she'll just be more impassioned about bringing it up.

If you can parse out her favorite "argument" counter it. I'll even help you; what is her favorite "argument?"

QuoteLately she's on this kick about I must be a Christian since I believe ghosts could be real.

You don't really believe in ghosts, do you?

Her arguments are very simple: religion has answers science doesn't, where does personality come from, and of course, ghosts need souls.

I think it's possible, whether it's spirits or something else. I've had many encounters with the ghosts of a man and his little dog, as have many others. So I'm inclined to give it a chance.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Her arguments are very simple: religion has answers science doesn't, where does personality come from, and of course, ghosts need souls.

I see, so she's a god of the gaps person. Damn.

I suppose "science WILL have an answer" won't be sufficient. Explaining that god as a default explanation of phenomena is as unreasonable as "a wizard did it" probably won't be convincing either.

Also, psychology and psychiatry do explain where personality comes from; quite convincingly, too.

QuoteI think it's possible, whether it's spirits or something else. I've had many encounters with the ghosts of a man and his little dog, as have many others. So I'm inclined to give it a chance.

I don't want to derail this topic, but I would really like to examine this experience. There may be a more physical explanation to this that you may be missing.  I've had my own experiences with "ghosts" which, after some inquiry, I have found natural explanations for.

Already tried those back when this first started, she says that's  still not proof for religion. I'll look into that personality stuff, I'd like to hear the theories on it.

Just things like seeing a shadowy figure pass by a doorway, or a plate falls off the counter in the middle of the night. Footsteps or barking when someone's here alone, though that's a bit less common. Not major but I think something's going on.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Thanks guys, I guess you're right. I wish she would just start an argument, the biting comments kinda eat at me. I'd like to get it all over with.

And I can see how that fairytale joke would go over. Very very badly. She already flipped out on me once because I was visiting a site that detailed bible contradictions. Said if I kept reading that trash I was living with relatives...

I think you could get her to quit saying stuff like that if you responded "So you can just quit loving me at the drop of a hat simply because I no longer share your religious views?  I still love you even though you've been really mean to me lately."  Basically, make her guilt trips backfire.

Lol, yeah. She's told me that my Atheism hurts her more than if I murdered someone. That was just trying to make me feel bad though, I hope.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Already tried those back when this first started, she says that's  still not proof for religion. I'll look into that personality stuff, I'd like to hear the theories on it.

Rock and a hard place, my friend. I really don't know. There isn't much that can be done on your end. Just go about your life as you did before. The only thing that might make her think is when she realizes that you're the same person you were before she found out; that you're not  raping puppies (I hope you're not raping puppies) or strangling rainbows to death. Maybe she'll understand that she's the one not being fair.

For me, my parents still ask me to go to church and sometimes get surprised or upset when Sunday rolls around and I'm still in bed.

On your end I think what might be best is looking for a reason to get out of the house, not to bum around and just get away, do something incredibly productive. Look an area of self improvement to show that being an atheist doesn't automatically make someone bad. For me, I joined a gym and exercise twice a day; it got me away from my parents when they were still overbearing, I'm healthy and fit, and, most importantly, I did it all while being an atheist. They have nothing to say. You could do what I did and go for physical improvement, or you could spend your time in the library, anything to make it blatantly and brutally clear that you're still a good person.

QuoteJust things like seeing a shadowy figure pass by a doorway, or a plate falls off the counter in the middle of the night. Footsteps or barking when someone's here alone, though that's a bit less common. Not major but I think something's going on.

In terms of your ghost, sensory stimuli that are interpreted as ghosts can be explained away either by being mistaken or misinterpretation of stimuli. Sights and noises can very easily be manipulated into things other than what they are. (On a side note, hearing dogs doesn't seem that shocking to me.)

For example when I would study I would have all the lights in my room off except for a desk lamp. Whenever I would hear a noise (likely from the pressure and compression differentials of the materials in the house) I would turn and watch the open doorway to my room slowly brighten, as though there had been something there. Now I know it's just normal adjustment of the eye to darkness.

If dishware is falling on the floor I would set up a camera every night until I caught how the plates became ambulatory. Assuming no foul play, it's likely a product of physics and not ghosts.

I won't claim to know the specifics of what you experienced or how you reached your conclusion, but "ghosts!", to me, is a rather outrageous conclusion to arrive at.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"Lol, yeah. She's told me that my Atheism hurts her more than if I murdered someone. That was just trying to make me feel bad though, I hope.

My parents told me that my becoming an atheist made them fail as parents.

I felt bad for a little while -- then I realized it wasn't true. I suppose if their sole purpose in having kids was to make Catholics then they failed -- thrice -- but I don't suspect that's the case.

How long has it been since they discovered the horrible truth?

(On a side note my father once told me that he would throw me out of the house if I was gay. I challenged him and said I was [I'm not] and dared him to explain to his friends and family why his son no longer lives with him. After much squirming he shut up.

Unfortunately, atheists are much easier to demonize than gays -- though I suppose they'd be equally hated in WV.)

Quote from: "thiolsulfate"I'm going to guess it's this one:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

It's certainly one of the best.

 

Thanks!

I dunno, maybe some part of me wants them to be real just because it'd be really cool.

I do work out and train already, but maybe getting a job would help. The extra cash wouldn't hurt either.

All of my ghosts have been an example of matrixing:  The tendency for our minds to find familiar patterns in random shapes and sounds.

I suspect that my prophetic dreams are just little integrations of where events in my life are going.
Yes, I have prophetic dreams, some of them surprisingly accurate  
I predicted my friend would say "De Ja mooooooo" when I had never heard it said that way before.

While reading your replies I've discovered something: you're all way smarter than me..... How am I going to hold my own in conversation?

Still, it's good to see the community here is just as kind and helpful as when I left. Props to all.

Quote from: "Neoncamouflage"While reading your replies I've discovered something: you're all way smarter than me..... How am I going to hold my own in conversation?

Still, it's good to see the community here is just as kind and helpful as when I left. Props to all.

Don't fuss about it too much. It's always hard being one of the most reviled minorities in the country. Just let your curiosity take you where it will and your brain will take care of the rest.

If she uses arguments of the form

"Science does not know how/why X happened, therefor, god did it"

The easiest counter is to agree, and then ask her which god. If the only criteria for a god to be real, is said god dwelling outside the realms of science, then you have a wealth to choose from (Odin, Ra, Zeus, Cuthulhu, The Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, An, Svarog, Brahman, Ame-no-Koyane, Chiconahuiehecatl, Ah Puch, Gluskab, Waaq and my favorite; Khonvoum).

If your dear mother wants to assert that it is Bible God who did X, then she must offer some arguments for his validity, which then can then be addressed in turn. Refusal to prove Bible God as the cause of whatever phenomena, amounts to an admission that any god could be responsible for the act, and since there are an infinite number of possible gods, the chances of her god being the "right" one are mathematically, nil.

The argument can be appended by asserting that The Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster dreamed up her god as a joke, and is in fact the all powerful one who makes it look as if Bible God exists. Since the two worlds are indistinguishable from one another, one could never prove with certainty that your scenario is not infact the right one. If she invokes Occam's razor, you can then turn it right back at Bible God.

Quote from: "SSY"[...]

The argument can be appended by asserting that The Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster dreamed up her god as a joke, and is in fact the all powerful one who makes it look as if Bible God exists. Since the two worlds are indistinguishable from one another, one could never prove with certainty that your scenario is not infact the right one. If she invokes Occam's razor, you can then turn it right back at Bible God.

Do I smell heresy?

The Carbo Deium is the only true god.

RAmen.