Happy Atheist Forum

Jesus Camp- It's a movie about a camp for christian kids.

It's things like this that give atheists a purpose in life. Do we really want these things or people running the country for our future children and grandchildren?

HELL NO!

Let's end this crap.

The sad thing is that I used to be one of these kids who were brainwashed into this stuff. I did the whole crying thing, raising my hands, etc.

For a second I thought this was going to be a discussion on Monty Python's: Meaning of Life -- I am sorely disappointed.

On Jesus Camp, yeah. Fuckin' nutty, that be.

My favorite part is right at the beginning when they're in the house of one of those poor kids and a dinosaur is on the TV "debunking" evolution -- and dinosaurs.

More on this later, I must away!

sorry to disappoint you.

I think the main point of this thread is to ask: Is it enough to say they're crazy? Or, should we actually be active about it?

Quote from: "and2premiere"lol sorry to disappoint you.

I think the main point of this thread is to ask: Is it enough to say they're crazy? Or, should we actually be active about it?

The actual camp itself has closed. It closed not long after the documentary aired; though I'm sure a dozen more like it have popped up in the mean time.

Kids on Fire Ministry (which is a name that should have been enough to have parents flee in terror) closed. It has been reborn as Kids Ministry International and I'm sure they're up to the same nonsense under a new banner.

I remember one scene of note where rev Becky Fischer had the kids gather around a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush, clasp hands and pray. She came out to defend that scene in particular and said it was taken out of context -- as though there was any context, whatsoever, where kids clasping hands and praying over a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush was anything but strange.

Ha, my friend went to camp and came back a Christian.
I don't really mind, he was the sort that is susceptible to most anything.

The meaning of life?  Well, I guess that's whatever you want it to be.  Some people make their meaning in life servitude to their fairy, and that's sad.  If you want, your meaning in life could be to help them.

Response to title - There is no meaning to life thus there are infinite meanings. Whatever your mind can accept as a purpose so it shall be.

Response to actual post - This is one of the biggest problems I have with religion. You should have the right to believe whatever you want to believe, yes. But when an adult asserts something as truth to a child, especially when it's from a parent, the average kid is going to accept it. You could argue that they'll be able to think critically of their hand-me down religion when they're older however new human cognition studies have shown that if one dedicates enough time toward an activity he deems of great purpose it becomes his reality. The mind is less likely to ever change. They didn't choose their religion, the religion chose them. Not to mention they're passing down not just tradition but lies. Should I be allowed to tell a child that if he doesn't have faith in St. Nicholas he will burn for an eternity after he dies? Regardless of how many other people may believe the same thing it doesn't make the absurd idea deserve anymore respect. It's still a lie that will distort ones reality that will lead toward living a life of guilt, fear and imprisoned thought.

The situation doesn't seem fair but there's nothing anybody can do about it.

I would go as far to say that telling your child about 'God' at a young age is considered child abuse.

Quote from: "Sophus"Response to title - There is no meaning to life thus there are infinite meanings. Whatever your mind can accept as a purpose so it shall be.

Have you been reading Sartre? Lol. My answer: the meaning of life is whatever it is you have done. Sartre might say something like that as well, if he could spare any time from writing puzzling philosophical contradictions and paradoxes =).

Quote from: "Sophus"Response to actual post - This is one of the biggest problems I have with religion. You should have the right to believe whatever you want to believe, yes. But when an adult asserts something as truth to a child, especially when it's from a parent, the average kid is going to accept it. You could argue that they'll be able to think critically of their hand-me down religion when they're older however new human cognition studies have shown that if one dedicates enough time toward an activity he deems of great purpose it becomes his reality. The mind is less likely to ever change. They didn't choose their religion, the religion chose them. Not to mention they're passing down not just tradition but lies. Should I be allowed to tell a child that if he doesn't have faith in St. Nicholas he will burn for an eternity after he dies? Regardless of how many other people may believe the same thing it doesn't make the absurd idea deserve anymore respect. It's still a lie that will distort ones reality that will lead toward living a life of guilt, fear and imprisoned thought.

I had an adult friend who went to a camp looking for spirituality and they tricked her into evangelical christianity. I couldn't convince her out of it, though she is intelligent and she was only there for a week or something. How annoying!

Quote from: "Sophus"The situation doesn't seem fair but there's nothing anybody can do about it.

It's not fair for the children I agree. Children aren't in a position to consent to brainwashing but brainwashed they will be. How about introducing critical thinking earlier in school? I never went through the US education system. When does that get taught?

Quote from: "AlP"How about introducing critical thinking earlier in school? I never went through the US education system. When does that get taught?

Bwahahahahahaha  

Quote from: "AlP"Have you been reading Sartre? Lol. My answer: the meaning of life is whatever it is you have done. Sartre might say something like that as well, if he could spare any time from writing puzzling philosophical contradictions and paradoxes =).

Wasn't he the cousin of Albert Schweitzer? I am familiar with Sartre, but only familiar. He is an Existentialist, like myself, which would explain the similarity of thought on the meaning of life. Haven't read anything of his work though. Is he good?

Quote from: "AlP"How about introducing critical thinking earlier in school? I never went through the US education system. When does that get taught?

Are you being sarcastic or is this a serious question?  As far as I know, from my experience and the experience of my friends and children that have been in my care - critical thinking is generally not taught in primary school or high school.  It may be taught in some areas, my experience is limited.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "AlP"How about introducing critical thinking earlier in school? I never went through the US education system. When does that get taught?

Are you being sarcastic or is this a serious question?  As far as I know, from my experience and the experience of my friends and children that have been in my care - critical thinking is generally not taught in primary school or high school.  It may be taught in some areas, my experience is limited.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

My son's school teaches critical thinking in the everyday curriculum it has chosen, but not as an actual topic or subject that is focused on for teaching.  My son has HORRIBLE critical thinking skills, no matter HOW hard we try to guide and teach him how to reason out a situation.  His problem is that he refuses to take the time to anything that doesn't interest him.  So unless it's Pokemon, Kirby, Sonic, ice cream, pizza, soda, or candy, it goes right under his radar.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Critical thinking as a subject would be too broad. But in the state I live in, encouraging the students to think critically is an automatic incorporation into the lessons via some form or another. Other than say a history class, critical thought is always provoked.

Quote from: "rlrose328"My son's school teaches critical thinking in the everyday curriculum it has chosen, but not as an actual topic or subject that is focused on for teaching. My son has HORRIBLE critical thinking skills, no matter HOW hard we try to guide and teach him how to reason out a situation. His problem is that he refuses to take the time to anything that doesn't interest him. So unless it's Pokemon, Kirby, Sonic, ice cream, pizza, soda, or candy, it goes right under his radar.

Hmm... for me the feeling of solving a difficult problem was motivation as a child. Once you can get him to solve a few independently, perhaps while enjoying pizza and soda, or candy and ice cream, then he'll have the motivation for the future? I dunno....

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "AlP"Have you been reading Sartre? Lol. My answer: the meaning of life is whatever it is you have done. Sartre might say something like that as well, if he could spare any time from writing puzzling philosophical contradictions and paradoxes =).

Wasn't he the cousin of Albert Schweitzer? I am familiar with Sartre, but only familiar. He is an Existentialist, like myself, which would explain the similarity of thought on the meaning of life. Haven't read anything of his work though. Is he good?

His ideas are intriguing. I would recommend his work if you are interested in existentialism. His most famous work is Being and Nothing. I recommend reading Heidegger's Being and Time first though because in many ways Sartre's ideas follow on from Heidegger's. Be warned though, their writing style is nothing like that of Nietzsche. They go into precise analysis that is difficult to follow (at least I found it so). I read "Existentialist Philosophy: an introduction" by L. Nathan Oaklander before either of these. Had I not done so, I think I would have given up on both books. That also contains selections from the works of 6 existentialist philosophers with the longest by Heidegger and Sartre.

Quote from: "Sophus"Should I be allowed to tell a child that if he doesn't have faith in St. Nicholas he will burn for an eternity after he dies? Regardless of how many other people may believe the same thing it doesn't make the absurd idea deserve anymore respect. It's still a lie that will distort ones reality that will lead toward living a life of guilt, fear and imprisoned thought

I've made the statement several times to acquaintances that "all ministers are liars".  Of course you can imagine the shocked expressions and comments.  But it's pretty simple to me: If you are saying something that you cannot prove, then you don't know it's true.  So you're lying.

It would be like me telling my son that there are people on Mars.  Why, because I can prove it, or because I want to believe it?  If it's the latter, how is that not a lie?   It's irresponsible and dishonest.

Same with preachers talking about their Santa-Claus-for Adults -- er, I mean, god.

QuoteAlp wrote
My answer: the meaning of life is whatever it is you have done.

It has been said that we seek meaning because we are aware of mortality. That's why we choose to "make something of it."

Quote from: "glintofpewter"

QuoteAlp wrote
My answer: the meaning of life is whatever it is you have done.

It has been said that we seek meaning because we are aware of mortality. That's why we choose to "make something of it."

I agree with that. Death as the ultimate yardstick.

Quote from: "AlP"His ideas are intriguing. I would recommend his work if you are interested in existentialism. His most famous work is Being and Nothing. I recommend reading Heidegger's Being and Time first though because in many ways Sartre's ideas follow on from Heidegger's. Be warned though, their writing style is nothing like that of Nietzsche. They go into precise analysis that is difficult to follow (at least I found it so). I read "Existentialist Philosophy: an introduction" by L. Nathan Oaklander before either of these. Had I not done so, I think I would have given up on both books. That also contains selections from the works of 6 existentialist philosophers with the longest by Heidegger and Sartre.

Thanks! I'll have to check him out.  

Quote from: "AIP"...precise analysis that is difficult to follow...

I agree with this, though I have found almost all serious books on philosophy take careful reading.  I would recommend some of Sartre's "lighter" stuff too:  I particularly enjoyed Nausea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausea_(novel)) and No Exit and Three Other Plays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit).