1)Say a person saved your life or that of your spouse or child;was a generally nice,pleasent and harmless person and did lots of helpful things/donated money to help the environment,the homeless,developing nations and the community but that person just happened to believe in fairies and unicorns and flying mushrooms and had no desire to convert anyone else to these beliefs. Would you,in the interests of truth, try to convince the person that the beliefs which they hold are preposterous even to the point of mocking the person or would you consider the person so nice and harmless that you would allow them to go on believing whatever makes them happy?
2)If you had a choice between living in a world without love or a world without truth, which would you pick?
Point 1)
As long as their belief wasn't interfering with the lives of others, or their own happiness, I wouldn't care. Everyone must find truth in their own time, and their own way.
Point 2)
Can you have truth without love?
Sure.
Can you have love without truth?
Not in my opinion.
You've only given us one world to choose from.
I for one don't like these "artificial scenario" questions (ie. you're in a ship wreck and can only save your mother or your wife).
Call me when something like this actually happens - or matters.
Just my 2 cents,
JoeActor
ditto.
Quote from: "joeactor"Point 1)
Can you have love without truth?
Not in my opinion.
JoeActor
What you can have is love in a world without truth, for example, in an illusory world you can love an illusion,you can love someone based upon deception, a lonely person could convince themselves to love a virtual person. The love in your heart may be true but the object of your love
may be a lie,the love that they say they have for you may be a lie. A person who has feelings of love towards god is having genuine feelings of love towards an illusion.
Point 1) If I wasn't planning on having a relationship(platonic or sexual) with the person, or even socializing with said savior or life then no I wouldn't belittle their insanity.
But, If some relationship were to progress it wouldn't last long if the savior persisted in their flying mushroom worship. Stupidity is stupidity regardless of how well meaning or nice that person may be. Yes, I would discourage this person, as any person I would have a relationship with(besides family) from their delusion. If they continued in this delusion I would continually lose respect for them or anything they said until none remained.
Point 2) Already live in a world lacking both.
Quote from: "johnny"What you can have is love in a world without truth, for example, in an illusory world you can love an illusion,you can love someone based upon deception, a lonely person could convince themselves to love a virtual person. The love in your heart may be true but the object of your love
may be a lie,the love that they say they have for you may be a lie. A person who has feelings of love towards god is having genuine feelings of love towards an illusion.
Dancing... Head of a Pin... Angels...
Riiiiiiigggghhhhttttt... Sorry, I just don't see it.
An isolated occurrence of this in a world where truth exists - sure, happens all the time. It's called "self-delusion", or in extreme cases schizophrenia.
But an entire
world without
truth???
Nope. I can't see that at all. How would such a world function? Just on a day-to-day business way, a zero-truth world would only work if everybody knew that everyone was lying about everything... Make sense? Well, not to me!
Un-possible!
If you come up with a realistic scenario, we can continue this discussion. If not, I'm through.
So let it be written, so let it be done,
JoeActor
Alright,maybe not a world without truth but one realistic scenario I can think of for love existing without truth is: Two people meeting on an internet forum or chatroom who lie completely about every aspect of themselves and even post fake photographs of themselves and then fall in love with each other, anyway,since when did love become entirely rational,love is only chemical reactions and electrical signals in the brain and thus love could be artificially stimulated which makes love something independent of truth in my opinion.
Quote from: "donkeyhoty"Point 1) If I wasn't planning on having a relationship(platonic or sexual) with the person, or even socializing with said savior or life then no I wouldn't belittle their insanity.
But, If some relationship were to progress it wouldn't last long if the savior persisted in their flying mushroom worship. Stupidity is stupidity regardless of how well meaning or nice that person may be. Yes, I would discourage this person, as any person I would have a relationship with(besides family) from their delusion. If they continued in this delusion I would continually lose respect for them or anything they said until none remained.
I don't think I could do that because there are so many pretty girls who read horoscopes or have alternative medical treatments like accupuncture and aslong as they didn't go on about them endlessly it wouldn't bother me.
Quote from: "johnny"I don't think I could do that because there are so many pretty girls who read horoscopes or have alternative medical treatments like accupuncture and aslong as they didn't go on about them endlessly it wouldn't bother me.
First, I wouldn't consider accupuncture delusional. I don't know enough about it, but I do know it's not complete bull like horoscopes.
Second, just because you want to bang someone doesn't mean you want a relationship with them or even have to respect them. Case in point, Erika Christensen, I'd bang her, but I certainly wouldn't want to talk to her about Scientology afterwards(or anything for that matter). And if you have a lot of relationships with pieces of ass that you don't respect I feel sorry for you.
Quote from: "donkeyhoty"Quote from: "johnny"I don't think I could do that because there are so many pretty girls who read horoscopes or have alternative medical treatments like accupuncture and aslong as they didn't go on about them endlessly it wouldn't bother me.
First, I wouldn't consider accupuncture delusional. I don't know enough about it, but I do know it's not complete bull like horoscopes.
Second, just because you want to bang someone doesn't mean you want a relationship with them or even have to respect them. Case in point, Erika Christensen, I'd bang her, but I certainly wouldn't want to talk to her about Scientology afterwards(or anything for that matter). And if you have a lot of relationships with pieces of ass that you don't respect I feel sorry for you.
"Pieces of ass"? I feel sorry for you donkeyhoty because you've just admitted that you don't respect all women,including the ones you just want to have sex with. I only want to have sex with Alysson Hannigan and yet I still respect her because shes a human being. Why should intelligence have any effect upon wether I respect someone, I respect people with mental disabilities because they are human beings and thus have a right to my respect.
yes, that's exactly what I did(see quote below), and interjecting mental disability into the debate is laughable.
And, is patronizing not disrepect? i.e. Ignoring the fact that you think the person you are in a relationship with is delusional, "pretty girls who read horoscopes or have alternative medical treatments like accupuncture and aslong as they didn't go on about them endlessly it wouldn't bother me." Yes, just because they are pretty you may excuse their delusion.
Yes that is what you did say and what I didn't say.
"I'd bang her, but I certainly wouldn't want to talk to her about Scientology afterwards(or anything for that matter). "
^You do know that this is the 21st century,don't you?
"And, is patronizing not disrepect? i.e. Ignoring the fact that you think the person you are in a relationship with is delusional, "pretty girls who read horoscopes or have alternative medical treatments like accupuncture and aslong as they didn't go on about them endlessly it wouldn't bother me." Yes, just because they are pretty you may excuse their delusion".
Nope. Because their pretty it makes their delusion more bearable but what right have I got to tell them what they should and should not believe in,they're adults and its their life and their brain and they can fill it with whatever nonsense they want - it is not patronizing to 'excuse' something which is none of my business - I think that horoscopes are rubbish but I wouldn't have a right not to excuse her,I
wouldn't have a right to say "your a moron because you believe in horoscopes" anymore than I would have a right to say "your a moron because you watch reality TV" - all I could do is give my opinion that
horoscopes are rubbish and because I respect her I would respect her right to take or leave my opinion. Besides they say opposites attract, why would I want every woman I to agree with me and think as I think, how boring would that be and her kooky beliefs may even add to her charm,add colour to her personality.
First of all it would be you're a moron, and yes you do have the right to tell someone, "you're a moron" if they watch reality tv or read horoscopes.
Is showing up the only criteria you have for respecting someone? "they are human beings and thus have a right to my respect", so Hitler, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Richard Nixon, Stalin, etc. deserve respect because they are human. That's delusional.
What is also delusional is this statement,
Quote from: "johnny"Because their pretty it makes their delusion more bearable but what right have I got to tell them what they should and should not believe in,they're adults and its their life and their brain and they can fill it with whatever nonsense they want - it is not patronizing to 'excuse' something which is none of my buisness
It is extremely patronizing to excuse something because of looks.
Moreover, do you not understand sarcasm or hyperbole in pointing out the fallacy of your contentions?
Quote from: "donkeyhoty"First of all it would be you're a moron, and yes you do have the right to tell someone, "you're a moron" if they watch reality tv or read horoscopes.
Is showing up the only criteria you have for respecting someone? "they are human beings and thus have a right to my respect", so Hitler, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Richard Nixon, Stalin, etc. deserve respect because they are human. That's delusional.
What is also delusional is this statement, Quote from: "johnny"Because their pretty it makes their delusion more bearable but what right have I got to tell them what they should and should not believe in,they're adults and its their life and their brain and they can fill it with whatever nonsense they want - it is not patronizing to 'excuse' something which is none of my buisness
It is extremely patronizing to excuse something because of looks.
Moreover, do you not understand sarcasm or hyperbole in pointing out the fallacy of your contentions?
If I didn't respect a mass murderer because they were a human being then I would be behaving just like them, its the fact that I do respect human beings, ALL human beings,that seperates me from them and the fact that you do not respect all human beings worries me greatly.
Furthermore I personally don't believe that I have a right to call someone a Moron because of their beliefs,unless those beliefs are seriously harmful to themselves or to others.
When you do sarcasm on a forum you should really use emmoticons, otherwise it is perfectly normal for people to misunderstand you.
Finally,to comment upon a point which you made in an earlier post, accupuncture is nothing more than the placebo effect, so would I be right in calling you a moron for believing that there is anything more in it than astrology.
Quote from: "johnny"If I didn't respect a mass murderer because they were a human being then I would be behaving just like them, its the fact that I do respect human beings, ALL human beings,that seperates me from them and the fact that you do not respect all human beings worries me greatly.
It worries me greatly that you have respect for despicable people simply because they are human. There is no reason to respect someone simply for being alive, they need to demonstrate that they are deserving of respect. The difference that you are missing is that I have respect for ALL people until they prove otherwise, so no respect from me for GW Bush, Hitler, Stalin, etc.
Every woman is a piece of ass - SARCASM
Every sexual encounter and relationship should involve mutual respect and love - SARCASM
QuoteAccording to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture, there have been many studies on acupuncture's potential usefulness, but results have been mixed because of complexities with study design and size, as well as difficulties with choosing and using placebos or sham acupuncture. However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations--such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low-back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma--in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. An NCCAM-funded study recently showed that acupuncture provides pain relief, improves function for people with osteoarthritis of the knee, and serves as an effective complement to standard care.7 Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.
Even poor, and mixed results for accupuncture are better than the completely useless application of horoscopes and astrology.
Since you respect ALL humans, you would be wrong in calling me a moron both for saying that I don't know much about accupuncture and that it is less insane than astrology.
But it would be ok for me to call you a moron for misusing their for they're and your for you're. Alas that's poisoning the well, and completely unnecessary.
Finally, add an introduction for yourself, so we can make fun of you more efficiently - SARCASM(second part)
I don't care what others believe as long as those beliefs aren't somehow a hazzard to humanity.
You can't live in a world without truth and still have love....well, unless you are comfortable with love that isn't true.
It worries me greatly that you have respect for despicable people simply because they are human. There is no reason to respect someone simply for being alive, they need to demonstrate that they are deserving of respect. The difference that you are missing is that I have respect for ALL people until they prove otherwise, so no respect from me for GW Bush, Hitler, Stalin, etc.
You missed my point entirely. GW Bush does not respect Iraqi civillians,
Hitler did not respect jews, Stalin did not respect anyone who disagreed with him or got in his way - I respect ALL human beings because I am better than GW Bush,Hitler or Stalin - I would not commit genocide because I respect all human beings. That is not to say that I like,love or
admire all human beings but that I believe in a world where people respect each other regardless of who they are or what they believe
. If I were to torture or spit upon a Stalin or a Hitler then how could I show to him what kindness,mercy and respect are.
Every sexual encounter and relationship should involve mutual respect - SARCASM
Yes,actually, I believe that it should and to believe otherwise seems not only moronic to me but wierd and frightening,I think that I have just lost all respect for you. If I ever have a daughter then I sincerely hope that she never runs into you. Don Quixote,you are not, because atleast he had respect for the peasent woman whom he saw as Dulcinea.
Quote from: "johnny"Yes,actually, I believe that it should and to believe otherwise seems not only moronic to me but wierd and frightening
Lightning and thunder are weird and frightening to me, Are the Gods perhaps bowling?
Sometimes sex is just sex, you don't need a deep connection, just an attraction, one night stand - because you have no want or need to spend more time with that person.
Do I bang girls I don't respect? No. I actually have to respect someone I have sex with, and not your delusional, patronizing "respect" where if a girl is pretty you can disregard her beliefs that you find moronic.
Quote from: "johnny"If I were to torture or spit upon a Stalin or a Hitler then how could I show to him what kindness,mercy and respect are
How WOULD you show them what kindness, mercy and respect are? Is that even possible? Guess what, Hitler was kind and respectful to children especially, as long as they weren't Jews, Roma(gypsies), disabled, etc.
What would you do to a war criminal? Give them a time out, put them in a corner with a dunce cap on? Perhaps hit them on the head with a newspaper?
Not everyone is deserving of respect. Also, you are confusing tolerance with respect. I tolerate the fact that people believe in god, and would defend the right to Freedom of(and from) Religion, but I do not respect their belief in god. The same with astrology, accupuncture, phrenology, and so on, I tolerate people who partake, but do not respect their belief.
I do not tolerate nor respect those who destroy, demean, or otherwise dehumanize members of the species we call Man, such as G-Dub, Pol Pot, Pat Robertson, for their own self-agrandizing goals.
Johnny, can you define what you mean by respect, please? I assume you are meaning:
Quote. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect)
specifically: having certain rights or privileges
If so, I can agree to an extent....yet, the actions of some people arguably take away their rights to certain privileges. For example, we can all probably agree that humans have a right to freedom...yet, we might also all be able to agree that if a person commits a crime they forfeit a part of that freedom and it's okay to put the person in jail (as restriction of freedom). In this same way, I can't respect Hitler like I could someone else because Hitler did things that forfeited his respect.
I agree that a person like Adolf Hitler has forfeited their right to freedom but aslong as they were incarcerated and punished then I would have no qualms about respecting their human rights or showing them a little courtesy because,unlike Adolf Hitler, I believe in human rights and I believe in showing courtesy to people,to ALL people without exception. I believe that showing respect to people is nice,civilized and an application of the golden rule, "Do to others as you would have them do to you".
I respect all people,Donkyhoty and everyone that I have sex with is a person. I wouldn't like to think that a person who had slept with me thought that I was beneath them or, that because I wasn't their intellectual equal, I was therefore no more than a sexual object. My primary interest in,for example, Pamela Anderson,might be sexual but I still automatically respect her because she is a human being,because it is nice to respect people and to live in a world where people do not merely tolerate each other but have respect for each other. Yes I have respect for a person,regardless how insane their beliefs, I don't respect their beliefs but beliefs are not a person. I would treat a paranoid schizophrenic with a level of respect and so why not a person who believes in Astrology. As an atheist I think that religious and cult leaders and people who write horoscopes have no respect for the people that they are trying to con, why should I look down upon the people whom I would wish to free from such ideas, if I don't respect them then why should I even bother trying to help them to change their ideas - surely the fact that I wish to help them shed some superstitious belief means that I believe that they are capable of changing and improving and this potential in them to change is worth respecting. Perhaps an individual might be genetically predisposed to believe in ideas like Astrology and thus it would not be their fault that they held crazy ideas and it would just
be unnecessarily mean and hurtful for me to treat them disrespectfully and telling people that they're stupid isn't really an effective way of educating them but if you respect a person then you might actually be more persuasive to them.
Furthermore,I really hope that it is possible to change someone who thinks like Adolf Hitler, if we could achieve such a thing then there would be no more
genocides and yes, he was selective about which human beings he treated with respect,unlike me but not unlike some other people on this thread.
Quote from: "johnny"everyone that I have sex with is a person
Really? and I have sex with animals.
Quote from: "johnny"I would treat a paranoid schizophrenic with a level of respect and so why not a person who believes in Astrology
I will say again, mental illness has no place in this discussion. Unless you are equating moronic beliefs with mental illness.(lack of respect for the morons?)
Quote from: "johnny"if I don't respect them then why should I even bother trying to help them to change their ideas - surely the fact that I wish to help them shed some superstitious belief means that I believe that they are capable of changing and improving and this potential in them to change is worth respecting
Of course, if they are pretty you can excuse their astrological leanings as long as they don't talk about it too much.
Quote from: "johnny"Perhaps an individual might be genetically predisposed to believe in ideas like Astrology and thus it would not be their fault that they held crazy ideas
WHAT? Are you joking?
Hmm, genetically predisposed? Hitler and the Nazis, anyone? Do I need to edify?
Quote from: "johnny"unlike me but not unlike some other people on this thread.
Aww, now that's disrespectful.
Quote from: "johnny"Furthermore,I really hope that it is possible to change someone who thinks like Adolf Hitler, if we could achieve such a thing then there would be no more genocides
What if he was genetically predisposed to believe in genocide?
-Oh, I forgot, SARCASM.
Moreover, I find your statements show your 'holier-than-thou" respect to be disingenuous. Tolerance is far greater than your patronizing, "Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together,
try to love one another right now". (bonus points for identifying the quote)
Finally, I've grown weary of this discussion. Anyone else please weigh in.