Happy Atheist Forum

This should be no surprise to anyone ...

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/ ... ceful.html (http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi56.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg183%2FVietnamvet-BRIGHT%2FGlobal_peace_index.jpg&hash=8a14caffc29340747a6f82f19698363ba442deb5)

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There is alot more info than this. I would look around for more info, because this topic looks rather empty

What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.
Stalins Soviet Union was worse millions upon millions were murdered because he and those that followed him distrusted or hated different groups of people.
Does this make any sense,only when you believe that human beings are nothing but advanced amoeba.
I can give you many more examples but this should be horrifing enough.

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.
Stalins Soviet Union was worse millions upon millions were murdered because he and those that followed him distrusted or hated different groups of people.
Does this make any sense,only when you believe that human beings are nothing but advanced amoeba.
I can give you many more examples but this should be horrifing enough.

This old and rusty argument is simplistic to the point of utter inanity.

Hitler's Third Rich was religious: "Gott mit uns!" The "Master Race" was a by-product not of a belief in evolution, but in the belief that Aryans were more directly descended from Adam and thus closer to god where other races, being darker skinned, were obviously struck with the "curse of Canaan" and thus inferior.

Stalin's communist Russia was based not on atheism but instead on a dogmatic approach to socialist values. Dogma, being unquestionable, is the very road to disaster. Even if Stalin had allowed religion to compete, he would have still ended up killing millions.

Try building a real argument rather than spouting rhetoric like "advanced amoeba".

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.
Stalins Soviet Union was worse millions upon millions were murdered because he and those that followed him distrusted or hated different groups of people.
Does this make any sense,only when you believe that human beings are nothing but advanced amoeba.
I can give you many more examples but this should be horrifing enough.

Seriously you should have used Stalin. Hitler was a deeply religious Roman Catholic.

Quote from: "Ayreon"There is alot more info than this. I would look around for more info, because this topic looks rather empty

Maybe I should have made the link to the story more apparent in my OP ... here it is again:

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/ ... ceful.html (http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html)

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I think that violence and crime has more to to with poverty, education, sense of security, living in comfort, culture and well-being of the people in a country than with religion. Norway is the most peaceful country in the world, because the people there are very content, there is barely any poverty, the standard of living and education is very high and people don't feel oppressed. I truly love that country (been there twice), it is beautiful and the people there are very friendly and happy. Because of this sense of well-being, there is practically no need for Norwegians to become violent or lead a life of crime.

It is funny that Godschild used the old cliche that Germany under Hitler was an atheist state. Nothing is more further from the truth. Without the support of the Christian population, Hitler would never been able to gain any power. It was the evangelical church in Germany (and later the Catholic Church as well) who was behind the success of his politics. The church considered him the savior of all Christian believes, who would eradicate the evil Jewish conspiracy against mankind (and Christianity in special) and who would support the true Faith by eliminating Christian heretics (like Jehovah Witnesses and other obscure Christian sects) . With other words, Hitler's Germany was a tyrannical Christian nation.

And it just so happens that those that have the luxury of more time to think, as well as more freedom to explore their thoughts and act on them, are more often atheists.  I don't think that importing a bunch of atheists to countries in Africa and the Middle East will crank up the average intelligence (more than a little, I mean) and lower poverty and violent crime.  I do think that if those countries were better off, there'd be more atheists.  Not because of that old cliche, that those in trouble need faith (which may even be true, courtesy of evolution), but because those not in trouble can actually think about whether their appeals to the heavens or simplistic explanations for unanswered questions are really likely to be functional (in the sense they believe they are).

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.

I just wanted to add something to this, there was some good replies already. The idea of a super race and especially superman (Ãœbermensch) came from Nietzsche, but like everything in Nazi Germany ideology, it was badly misused. Nietzsche's sister was the holder of his estate at the time, and was a prominent nazi. She used her brothers writings as a part of the party's propaganda, but in a way that would have frightened Nietzsche! He did not think that anybody could have been the superman, rather it was meant to be only a philosophical idea. Source for this is a documentary I saw a couple of years ago.

Quote from: "PipeBox"And it just so happens that those that have the luxury of more time to think, as well as more freedom to explore their thoughts and act on them, are more often atheists.  I don't think that importing a bunch of atheists to countries in Africa and the Middle East will crank up the average intelligence (more than a little, I mean) and lower poverty and violent crime.  I do think that if those countries were better off, there'd be more atheists.  Not because of that old cliche, that those in trouble need faith (which may even be true, courtesy of evolution), but because those not in trouble can actually think about whether their appeals to the heavens or simplistic explanations for unanswered questions are really likely to be functional (in the sense they believe they are).

Yeah, it's an old cliche, because it can be found from the Bible!

Quote from: "Godschild"All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.

Another person mistaking Social Darwinism for evolution.  Actually, Social Darwinism was  created by a group of religious folks who perverted the words used by people (not even Darwin) to describe the process of evolution - survival of the fittest.  They perverted Darwin's theory of evolution to support a social policy.  Creation's Ladder bears more relationship to Social Darwinism than evolution does.

Creation's Ladder is the Christian concept explaining the different species as trains of thought in god's mind.  It places lions at the top of the animal ladder and kings at the top of the human ladder.  The idea is that each person, from kings to nobility, to wealthy people, to poor people, to beggars, to a hierarchy of races puts each person in their place by birth, by god's choice.  Creation's Ladder was a view that allowed people to justify oppression by the rich and later Social Darwinism.  Herbert Spencer was the founder of the Social Darwinist movement and he received support from many religious quarters as his theory of Social Darwinism fit perfectly with their views.  

In America, most Social Darwinists are religiously conservative.  But most people who think evolution happened are not Social Darwinists.  That's because Social Darwinism bears as much relation to the theory of evolution as child molestation bears to making love.  Social Darwinism also holds as much in common with the theory of evolution as the Inquisition held to the words of Jesus Christ.

I think religion is the product of suffering, ignorance, and poverty.  If we can alleviate suffering, ignorance, and poverty we'll lessen both crime and religion.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I think religion is the product of suffering, ignorance, and poverty.  If we can alleviate suffering, ignorance, and poverty we'll lessen both crime and religion.

Or if we rid ourselves of religion and crime, we'll alleviate suffering, ignorance and poverty.  :blush:

I'm not going to argue about Hitler except to say he was not a christians he was a deviant,murderer,thief and most anything else horrible you can think of.The church in Germany at that time was dead wrong in their thinking the Bible never has taught to eliminate the Jewish people and just to be correct the Jewish people are to be supported by the christian church.Why did you ignore Stalin?What about China,North Korea,Cambodia.Now I will agree that religion has contributed to many terrible events down through history 911 is one that hits close to home and the heart and even the christian church has contributed its share.True christian teaching does not promote violence.The teachings of Jesus are of peace,love,charity and so forth and so on.

Quote from: "Godschild"What about China,North Korea,Cambodia.

Why don't you read the study in the OP before responding?

Quote from: "Godschild"I'm not going to argue about Hitler except to say he was not a christians he was a deviant,murderer,thief and most anything else horrible you can think of.

Christians are incapable of murder? Thievery? Come on, that's just silly. Religion or lack of religion cannot possibly make one immune to being destructive. Some Christians are murderers and some are thieves. Adolph Hitler believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ. He believed in the remission of sins. He was, by definition, a Christian. Does that mean that you, as  Christian, share in the responsibility for WWII or the Holocaust? Of course not. Your faith is your own, and it's up to you to make good decisions and be a "good" person.

Quote from: "Godschild"The church in Germany at that time was dead wrong in their thinking the Bible never has taught to eliminate the Jewish people and just to be correct the Jewish people are to be supported by the christian church.

Pretend that you dislike Jews. Now read Matthew 23.

Quote from: "Godschild"Why did you ignore Stalin? What about China, North Korea, Cambodia? Now I will agree that religion has contributed to many terrible events down through history 9/11 is one that hits close to home and the heart and even the christian church has contributed its share. True christian teaching does not promote violence. The teachings of Jesus are of peace, love, charity and so forth and so on.

This seems like a no true Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) fallacy. Some of the Bible teaches peace and some of it teaches violence, hatred, and murder. You certainly cannot deny this.

Quote from: "Godschild"I'm not going to argue about Hitler except to say he was not a christians he was a deviant,murderer,thief and most anything else horrible you can think of.The church in Germany at that time was dead wrong in their thinking the Bible never has taught to eliminate the Jewish people and just to be correct the Jewish people are to be supported by the christian church.Why did you ignore Stalin?What about China,North Korea,Cambodia.Now I will agree that religion has contributed to many terrible events down through history 911 is one that hits close to home and the heart and even the christian church has contributed its share.True christian teaching does not promote violence.The teachings of Jesus are of peace,love,charity and so forth and so on.

And they don't put sugar on their porridge! (http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/notruescotsman.htm)

Quote from: "Godschild"I'm not going to argue about Hitler except to say he was not a christians he was a deviant,murderer,thief and most anything else horrible you can think of.The church in Germany at that time was dead wrong in their thinking the Bible never has taught to eliminate the Jewish people and just to be correct the Jewish people are to be supported by the christian church.

Just because you say a person isn't Christian it doesn't make them an atheist.  You (and many Christians like you) hold up Hitler as an example of an evil atheist.  People have to not believe in God to be atheists.  A person who believes in God and self-identifies as Christian is not an atheist.  Just because a person practices Christianity differently from you, it doesn't make them an atheist.

How about Fred Phelps?  Is he not a Christian, too?

It makes it easy to paint Christianity as a shiny bright religion of love if you can simply disown every wrongdoer who believes they are Christian.  It also helps you to demonize and dehumanize atheists by considering every wrongdoer an atheist and every atheist a wrongdoer.  Then, if a bunch of people who call themselves Christians beat the crap out of someone or kill someone for religious reasons - you can just say it's a bunch of atheists fighting atheists and wash your hands clean of Christian religious violence.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Just because you say a person isn't Christian it doesn't make them an atheist.  You (and many Christians like you) hold up Hitler as an example of an evil atheist.  People have to not believe in God to be atheists.  A person who believes in God and self-identifies as Christian is not an atheist.  Just because a person practices Christianity differently from you, it doesn't make them an atheist.

How about Fred Phelps?  Is he not a Christian, too?

It makes it easy to paint Christianity as a shiny bright religion of love if you can simply disown every wrongdoer who believes they are Christian.  It also helps you to demonize and dehumanize atheists by considering every wrongdoer an atheist and every atheist a wrongdoer.  Then, if a bunch of people who call themselves Christians beat the crap out of someone or kill someone for religious reasons - you can just say it's a bunch of atheists fighting atheists and wash your hands clean of Christian religious violence.

Eek! Logic! Flee, Godschild! Flee!

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Eek! Logic! Flee, Godschild! Flee!

Sorry curio I can't quit now!

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Godschild"I'm not going to argue about Hitler except to say he was not a christians he was a deviant,murderer,thief and most anything else horrible you can think of.

Quote from: "Will"Christians are incapable of murder? Thievery? Come on, that's just silly. Religion or lack of religion cannot possibly make one immune to being destructive. Some Christians are murderers and some are thieves. Adolph Hitler believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ. He believed in the remission of sins. He was, by definition, a Christian. Does that mean that you, as Christian, share in the responsibility for WWII or the Holocaust? Of course not. Your faith is your own, and it's up to you to make good decisions and be a "good" person.

In my post I said that the christian church is responsible for its share of evil.Yes christains are capable of all sin however we are not to make it a practice.Hitler was not a christian just as you are not a christian.Will if you were to go around telling people you were a christian and that you believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ does that make you a christian I do not believe it does.It's not up to me to be a good person what is up to me is to allow Jesus to make me a better person.It is my responsiblity to allow Christ to better my life for His work with other people and this I accept as part of my relationship with Him.Jesus said that no one is good except God so the only thing I can do is allow Jesus to move me forward in a morally correct direction.Now if I have read my history correctly I don't think Hitler was moving in a morally correct direction.

Quote from: "Godschild"The church in Germany at that time was dead wrong in their thinking the Bible never has taught to eliminate the Jewish people and just to be correct the Jewish people are to be supported by the christian church.

Quote from: "Will"Pretend that you dislike Jews. Now read Matthew 23.

I can't see why Jesus rebuking the scribes and Pharisees would have anything to do with hatered of the Jews.Jesus was a Jew and He came to them first with the message of salvation so that they could take the message to the rest of the world.

Quote from: "Godschild"Why did you ignore Stalin? What about China, North Korea, Cambodia? Now I will agree that religion has contributed to many terrible events down through history 9/11 is one that hits close to home and the heart and even the christian church has contributed its share. True christian teaching does not promote violence. The teachings of Jesus are of peace, love, charity and so forth and so on.

This seems like a no true Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) fallacy. Some of the Bible teaches peace and some of it teaches violence, hatred, and murder. You certainly cannot deny this.

Jesus never taught violence,murder,hatred or anything else that would be sinful that would have defeated His whole purpose.The no true scotsman does not apply here.

Quote from: "Godschild"Jesus never taught violence,murder,hatred or anything else that would be sinful that would have defeated His whole purpose.The no true scotsman does not apply here.

Arguable, but either way that misses the point.

You try to call Hitler an atheist - which simply is not true. He believed, even if you don't think he believed in the right thing.

Quote from: "JillSwift"

Quote from: "Godschild"Jesus never taught violence,murder,hatred or anything else that would be sinful that would have defeated His whole purpose.The no true scotsman does not apply here.

Arguable, but either way that misses the point.

You try to call Hitler an atheist - which simply is not true. He believed, even if you don't think he believed in the right thing.

I did not call Hitler an atheist,if I were to put a label on Hitler,which is what I think you want me to do,I would call him a demon or demon-possessed.I can assure you he was not a christian,his actions were not representative of a chritian life period.Even the demons and satan believe in Jesus as the Christ and they are not atheist and they are not nor will they ever be christians.This is the second or third time I've written this I did not call Hitler an atheist so stop calling him a christian no one wants to claim Hitler except for a few bizzare nuts .

Quote from: "Godschild"I did not call Hitler an atheist

Oh, but you did . . . .

The OP provided a link to a study comparing violence in religious countries with atheist (secular) countries and you attempted to contradict the study with:

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany  . . .

Silly, silly person.

Keep setting them up, and we will continue to knock them down.

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.
Stalins Soviet Union was worse millions upon millions were murdered because he and those that followed him distrusted or hated different groups of people.
Does this make any sense,only when you believe that human beings are nothing but advanced amoeba.
I can give you many more examples but this should be horrifing enough.

Godschild...why would you say the above  in a response to a thread about atheist countries being more peaceful if you were not trying to strongly imply that Hilter was an atheist?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Godschild"What about Hitlers Germany where millions were murdered in concentration camps and many millions more died putting a stop to this madman.All this because he wanted to engineer a super race and he got the idea because of his belief in Darwin.
Stalins Soviet Union was worse millions upon millions were murdered because he and those that followed him distrusted or hated different groups of people.
Does this make any sense,only when you believe that human beings are nothing but advanced amoeba.
I can give you many more examples but this should be horrifing enough.

Godschild...why would you say the above in a response to a thread about atheist countries being more peaceful if you were not trying to strongly imply that Hilter was an atheist?

OK I lumped him in with other atheist sorry.I'm trying to defend the christian church.So why want you respond about Stalin and the others I brought up?

Quote from: "Godschild"OK I lumped him in with other atheist sorry.I'm trying to defend the christian church.So why want you respond about Stalin and the others I brought up?

Stalin's USSR  is not on the list of the most peaceful countries of the world, because it no longer exists. The study, mentioned in this topic, is of more recent times. Modern Russia however received very bad notes in that study. Stalin was an evil, paranoid and power-mad dictator. He ruled his country with shear madness, therefore I sincerely doubt that atheism had anything to do with his motivations.

Does anyone know if Kim Jong Il is religious? Does he believe his father is god or is he an atheist? Not that that has any bearing on the subject. Just that, i don't really know what his stance is.

Quote from: "karadan"Does anyone know if Kim Jong Il is religious? Does he believe his father is god or is he an atheist? Not that that has any bearing on the subject. Just that, i don't really know what his stance is.

Dear Leader will always be with them.  However Dear leader Jr. claims that Juche is not a religion.  

QuoteIn place of a god, Juche substitutes Kim Il Sung, who’s called North Korea’s “Eternal President” despite kicking the bucket in 1994. Forget Christmas and Easter: North Koreans take off work for Sung’s birthday and the day of his death.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17545/j ... -reject-it (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17545/juche-north-korea-has-created-religion-in-attempt-to-reject-it)

In other words, Dear Leader is a reluctant god.