Happy Atheist Forum

I guess I would call myself a new atheist. I've been on the fence for a couple of years because I was afraid to let go because of fear.

My question is, "Why should we care about debunking Christianity or any other relgions?" If they believe in what they believe in and it makes them happy, should we ruin that?

My position is that relgion creates segregation and prejudice and is inhibiting our ability to advance as a society, which would in turn assuage human suffering now and for future generations.

Ever since my studies at an Ivy League institution, I've felt I've come to terms with my new self.

I'd be happy to elaborate, but I'd prefer comments first.

Welcome to your newfound atheism.  

I once felt like you do... if they believe, who am I to say their mythology is wrong?  My bottom line comes when 1) they want to pass laws based on their religion (gay marriage and others) and 2) they are trying their best to eliminate true science in favor of their faulty "christian science" in the nation's school.

Because of those two issues (primarily), I do what I can to debunk when given the chance.  HOWEVER, the more we try to debunk, the stronger we make their faith, just to spite us.  We won't sway them and they won't sway us, so it's all just a wasted exercise.

I just want them to know they are wrong and that they don't own the world.  They are NOT the only ones here.

Hear, hear.

Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 

Quote from: "rlrose328"Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 

Ah, gee. I'm sorry. How about a floating dog?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages46.fotki.com%2Fv1452%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F3144699-vi.gif&hash=296941740342df63bf5569a8116b2194411d3505)

This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy.  For some it's just how they live.  I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it.  But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy.  I think he'd be happier without the belief.

Quote from: "PipeBox"This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy. For some it's just how they live. I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it. But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy. I think he'd be happier without the belief.

You are right about some christians wearing their faith around their necks and letting it burden them.I know that your main concern for your friend is his happiness and not how or what he believes.Encourage him to study the Bible so he can reach a decision about what he believes.

Quote from: "PipeBox"This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy.  For some it's just how they live.  I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it.  But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy.  I think he'd be happier without the belief.

Honestly, that doesn't sound like belief, that sounds like something far scarier: The fear that the belief may be right, without actually believing.
It's folks in that terrible position that I think would be well served by a friendly and gentle push in the right direction, namely a few lighthearted discussions about the internal inconsistencies of the definition of "god", biblical errancy and contradiction, etc.
Plus, just being around someone comfortable in their lack of belief in god helps, too.

I agree with the use of religion in society. Why stunt the growth of our next generation for things that don't have any proof of working.

I have a friend who is studying anthropology. Before he started his studies, he used to be a super conservative. It's weird because now he's loosened up a lot about the certainty of everything. It seems he's scared to let go because there's nothing else to believe in. It's hard to assure him that there are more things to believe in this life than religion.

I mean, ifthe only reason you don't want to leave something is because of fear of what they will do, then that's not a great situation (him leaving church because of fear). It's like being in an abusive relationship and the girl afraid of leaving.

Quote from: "JillSwift"Honestly, that doesn't sound like belief, that sounds like something far scarier: The fear that the belief may be right, without actually believing.
It's folks in that terrible position that I think would be well served by a friendly and gentle push in the right direction, namely a few lighthearted discussions about the internal inconsistencies of the definition of "god", biblical errancy and contradiction, etc.
Plus, just being around someone comfortable in their lack of belief in god helps, too.

You hit it on the head.  I've been giving him that gentle push, and he asks with statements, not questions, what the implications of a lack of belief in the Biblical God are, from my perspective.  He'll toss out a comment mid-sentence "and for a while there I didn't like being meaningless" which is not his belief under the Bible, but his hypothetical proposition that if he were to let go of his Christianity, he'd have no meaning, and his admittance he's been thinking over it.  Or at least, that's the vibe I get when we talk, but I'm not a shrink.  So I give him a reply, and he finds it acceptable.  In this case it was "Bah, it's liberating, not being bound to the walls, not being a structural support. It means you're free to wander the halls."

He offers no rebuttals to the philosophy I offer him, rather, he asks me if I'd like to discuss it further, though we often get sidetracked into more lighthearted conversation, like what he's programming or what music is good for listening.  He wants to be free of it, I think, but isn't sure he can be.  He often remarks that he just wishes he knew for sure, leaving it at that.  I wish I could tell him what he wants to hear, an argument that so thoroughly throttles his fear of hell that there's none left to overcome, but he'll have to realize the fear is ridiculous on his own, and that's no easy thing to do, even when you know why the idea of God just doesn't work.  I don't know enough about contradictions and errancy to go that route, but perhaps it'd be better if I didn't challenge the Bible directly.  It sounds strange to say, but I'd not do it because the other day he described himself as a gnostic Christian.  He really wants to believe that he does believe, and while it's hard to argue with logic, you can interpret the Bible day in and out, and he would be willing to stretch the words to the breaking points of their meaning if he thinks it'll save him, ironically saving his pain, his belief that he could yet burn in hell.  I just want him free of the millstone.

Quote from: "Godschild"You are right about some christians wearing their faith around their necks and letting it burden them.I know that your main concern for your friend is his happiness and not how or what he believes.Encourage him to study the Bible so he can reach a decision about what he believes.

His cousin and roommate is a Calvinist that takes his faith very seriously.  I think the last thing he needs is another person telling him to go read the Bible.  Not only would he feel betrayed, as I'm the only person he knows that doesn't believe in the religion that's burdening him, it would also throw him for a loop until he figured out I was trying to be serious, not that I ever could be serious in that recommendation, knowing his situation.  What does the Bible offer that will make him feel better?  The Bible has nothing to offer him but endorsement of itself and the chance for him to burn in hell.  He doesn't even want to live forever now, but is naturally unsure when he'd ever want to die, so what will heaven offer him?  He would have God strip him of his freewill because he fears it, but he knows that, in a manner of speaking, you can't return God's gifts.  If man has free will on Earth, it must either be necessary or superior to a world with no free will.  If God is not malevolent, then free will must be maintained in heaven.  Eternity is a long time to be perfect.  Heaven is an interesting place to suffer for all eternity with an infinite amount of sin to match.

It's all such a headache for him, and I know why.  It's impossible to make sense of it all.  Too much to cope with, and trying to just feel good, to just feel loved, won't clear the problems from your mind.  You know what the funniest part of it all is?  Strip a little verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit out of the Bible, and I doubt he'd have a single qualm with it today.  And I'd just let him be.  Whoever thought it was a good idea to put that in, be it God or some unnamed author, was a fool.  It makes God a petty character who can't stand having one aspect of himself called names.  It's good for nothing but scaring Christians, presumably into submission, but apparently it's not even good for that, because I know of one that would rather doubt than live a life of a sick worry.  The Bible is a book of thought crimes, and whereas reality might seem a burden, after you cope with it, you never live with spite for it.  You never have to worry about sinning against it, and death really loses its sting.  Even as a Christian I used to fret and think of how horrible it would be to just die.  You don't cope with that as a Christian.  You try desperately to get around it.

My friend hangs on to the Bible not because it has wisdom, but because he's afraid of being damned.  What does that say about your religion?  

With full respect I'm glad it works for you.  But I would no sooner leave him to the Bible (which addresses none of the philosophy we've discussed, and only endorses his fears as legitimate) as something to think over than I would give him diesel to drink just because it was a liquid.

Tell me what verses will make him feel better.  I know exactly what will on my end.

The religious would be fine if they could keep their religion to themselves, but they seem to be rubbish at it, on the whole. There is so much preaching, prosltysing, accosting ( it still really annoys me when I get stopped by the god squad IN the uni ) etc, not to the mention the lost childhoods of so many kids, brought up in fear, as a vain attempt to justify and consolidate the parent's insane beliefs. They rob their children of intelectual growth and natural curiosity and brow beat others with their supposed moral superiority.

Thats why I don't like religion. If they could just believe in it themselves, and not try and force their beliefs on others, it would be A OK with me.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "rlrose328"Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 :yay:  :)

Why debunk?

Because if we do not expose them as frauds, the nuts will run the asylum.

Why anyone would respect charlatans is beyond me.

Yes, some of them may do good work, but imagine how much MORE good work would be done if they didn't waste their time worshipping the non-existent?

Further, those religious people that do good work do so for humanitarian reasons.  It is their humanity that tempers their religious fanaticism and enables them to determine whether their faith is moral or not, not the reverse. . .

The religious "liberals" are sooo close to being such great humanitarians if they only just took the next step and stepped out of the darkness of religion.

Its almost like trying to convince a friend that they are in a bad relationship, one where they are asked to give and give and give but when your friend asks for something in return all (s)he gets is an IOU (at best) or a punch to the face(at worst).  You really don't want to see your friend get hurt any more but you know that if you step in and force the issue (call the police, dust off your old base ball bat, try to stage an intervention) your friend will resent the help because it will be seen as an abrogation of their free will.

SO most of us non-believers try to debunk rather than legislate against theocracy and silly things and the dangerous things that religions seem hell bent on making happen.

Quote from: "karadan"Hahahaha!  :bounce:

I just had to dig myself out of a hole. I was taking a call from a councillor with an IT query as i watched that gif. Unfortunately she thought i was giggling at her ineptitude at following the simplest of IT instructions. :blush:

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "rlrose328"Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 :yay:

And I will willingly and gleefully take the blame for this one.  

PipeBox you had a lot to say I will need to take some time to think through what you've written.In the meantime if you would tell me what you believe is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit.Ask your friend what he believes blasphamy of the Holy Spirit means,I believe this is the root that needs to be dug up and examined.I also think the biggest problem that people have with what's written in the Bible is this,that God being creator of all the universe says He's omnipotent,omnipresent and omniscient and assuming all this is true then our minds can not even conceive His abilities,thoughts,ways and so forth and so on.When reading scripture one must try to understand it from Gods point of view if that is possible.I will get back to you about the other things you've written.

I've been told the only way to blasphmeme the Holy Spirit is to deny it your whole life, but this stretches credulity.  Blasphemy is normally taken to mean to speaking ill of something considered holy.  It's pretty hard to blaspheme anything without speaking and with no one to hear it, normally, but here enters our dilemma.  If a Christian even hates someone, they have committed murder, and if they lust, they have committed adultery.  One need not commit actual wrongdoing to sin, as it were, though you may call either thought crime "actual wrongdoing".  Compound this with the fact that the Christian believes God is always listening.  Thinking something like "The Holy Spirit is stupid," might count as no less than committing blasphemy of it directly to God.  And that's scary as hell to any Christian that thinks a stray thought could deny them grace, when that grace is the only place their comfort lies.  It is so much worse, then, that it also promises hell.  Try not thinking of a polar bear sometime.  Trying not to think of something is generally a futile effort.  Try not to think of blasphemies and throughout the day you'll have near fully-constructed sentences pop into your head, where only making a lot of mental noise and dropping into fearful reflex will stop your brain from completing the thought.

I once lived like this, and he has for years, though he's only started talking to me about it recently.  He didn't know anyone else dealt with the same BS.  What assurance can you offer him that he is safe?  A liberal interpretation of the Bible does little to ease the possibility of the interpretation being wrong.  He believes his soul is in jeopardy.  I don't believe mine is anymore.  It seems ridiculous.  If it's the truth, God is a strange, capricious, vain thing and I am well and truly screwed.  But everyone is in that boat.  Everyone pisses off some possible conception of a god, so the only thing Christianity has backing its scare tale?  Popularity, and in the potential apostate's case, prior knowledge of the whole of the threatening mythos.

I'll be happy to hear your further thoughts on the matter.

:/

PipeBox sorry I have not gotten back with you about your friend things have been real busy and still are.I do have the verses you asked for but you have stated that you would not have your friend return to the Bible.So what good can come from giving you the verses.If you are still interested please reply.

Sorry to sound like an ass, but just post them.  Obviously the reason I didn't send him to the Bible is because I have a poor opinion of it and because I don't recall or may have never been aware of the verses you would post.  You're up against my understanding of the Bible, not my ego, and not my reasoning, because if my understanding is solid you don't have comfort for him that he hasn't already visited, and as I said, I would not lightly endorse the same book that pushes the damnation he's afraid of.   You only have my thanks to gain by posting, and at the worst, you don't stand to lose anything but the time it takes you to push the keys.

Quote from: "PipeBox"You know what the funniest part of it all is? Strip a little verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit out of the Bible, and I doubt he'd have a single qualm with it today. And I'd just let him be. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put that in, be it God or some unnamed author, was a fool. It makes God a petty character who can't stand having one aspect of himself called names. It's good for nothing but scaring Christians, presumably into submission, but apparently it's not even good for that, because I know of one that would rather doubt than live a life of a sick worry.

I believe the first thing to do is not to take a verse out of its context.Matthew 12:32 does not stand alone in this chapter we must start at verse 22 and read to verse 37 to find the full meaning of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.We are shown something very important about the Holy Spirit in these verses.The Holy Spirit is the power by which the Father and Son work and to reject that power is to divide God,to speak against this power is to deny God and to rebuke the power is to forsake the Son.First let's look at the Trinity and see how the Father,Son and Holy Spirit interact with each other.The Father is the operator,the Son is the administrator and the Holy Spirit is the manifestor.The primary work of the Father is to operate,then the Son administrates the operation of the Father and the Holy Spirit manifest the administration of the operation.The Holy Spirit is the connection between the Son and Father and this is one reason why the Holy Spirit is so dear to them.The Holy Spirit is very sensitive scripture tells us that He can be vexed and grieved.The Holy Spirit is the person of God who lives with those who are saved and the one who strives with the unbelieveing He has this position in the Trinity because He is so sensitive and when He is blasphemied it hurts Him deeply.The Father and Son are very protective of the Holy Spirit so this is why there is no forgiveness when one blasphemes the Holy Spirit.Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a willful act it is not an idle thought.Now to the verses and I'm not going to type them out I know you have a Bible you can reference.

Verse 22 this is the man being healed by Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Verse 23 the people are beginning to see Jesus in a new light because of the Holy Spirits revelation to them.
Verse 24 the Pharisees blaspheme the Holy Spirit they did this willfully so they could deny Jesus and the work the Father was doing through Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Verses 25-27 Jesus rebukes the Pharisees telling them that a kingdom or house can not stand nor be trusted when it's divided against itself.Verses 36 and 37 apply here.
Verses 28 and 29 Jesus tells them that it does not matter what they say they can not hold back the power of the Triune God.That their willful evil thoughts can't stop what is coming.
Verse 30 this is the results of the unforgivable sin the relationship is broken forever.
Verses 31 and 32 Jesus says that the willful act of speaking out the thoughts of the heart is blasphemy,the hurt caused to the Holy Spirit that comes from the evil heart will not be tolerated by the Father or Son.God will forgive anything said about the Father and the Son.An idle thought can not be controlled God would be petty if HE were to eternally condemn one for an idle thought His love is far greater than that.
Verse 33 Jesus says don't ride the fence either chose Him or the world and let everyone know where you stand for this is not a game.
Verse 34 Jesus makes it very plain that blasphemy comes from the heart and has nothing to do with a thought that can not be controlled.
Verse 35 when you read this verse replace the word treasure with heart it gives one a clearer understanding of the verse.If you have an NIV Bible it translates the verse over to modern english very well.
Verses 36 and 37 apply to verses 25-27.

Quote from: "PipeBox"The Bible is a book of thought crimes, and whereas reality might seem a burden, after you cope with it, you never live with spite for it. You never have to worry about sinning against it, and death really loses its sting. Even as a Christian I used to fret and think of how horrible it would be to just die. You don't cope with that as a Christian. You try desperately to get around it.

My friend hangs on to the Bible not because it has wisdom, but because he's afraid of being damned. What does that say about your religion?

I'm not sure what you are saying all the christians I know are not afraid of dying and cope with death well because they have dealt with it through Jesus Christ.They like myself and all others I know,believers and nonbelievers alike,are afraid of how they will die that's only natural.I've seen and prayed for many who were glad to be moving on in this journey of life with Christ.

Thanks, but I was hoping for more.  I'm familiar with Mathew, to the extent I know it is the only place Jesus speaks of an unforgivable sin.  The passage promises nothing.  Rather, only your assumptions read in offer any comfort.  If I sent him to those same verses, how do you think he would interpret them?  It's great that you can read in so much meaning verse to verse, but when I read it, I just hear Jesus telling off some Pharisees, healing some folks, and getting out of there before he gets murdered for "working" on the sabbath.  While he's dominating them with his wit he mentions something unforgiveable.  The Bible mentions plenty of people who won't get into heaven, all kinds of people who have some divine retribution on the way (presumably after they die), and it even in Mathew it is suggested that a person is only forgiven 7 times for any sin, but the significance is that it's the only place where Jesus speaks of an unpardonable sin.

I've visited a few Christian sites through google, and their response to the unpardonable sin is typically "Not us, we don't have to worry about it because we're strong in Jesus!" or "No no no, here's how you actually commit the sin, so don't worry because it'd be really hard to do!" and none of their comments is there to be plainly read.  Apparently you need a "feel" for the Bible to know how it all really works, to know what Jesus would have also said if only he or his listeners had thought it was important enough.  My friend's feeling on the matter, unfortunately, is that it's rather easy to get damned.  I mean, do you think the Pharisee meant to blaspheme the Spirit?  Put yourself in his shoes for a sec.  You're well read in the scriptures, in fact, you can actually read.  Outside, some commoners, probably Jewish, are picking wheat to eat, and it's the sabbath.  Picking wheat probably isn't a huge deal, so you don't grab a rock but instead hurry outside to tell them to stop.  You recognize one of the guys as the miracle of the month who's been blowing through Judea, and with a bit of contempt you question him.  At no point do you say "Screw your Spirit," or "I blaspheme the Holy Ghost," but when you remind everyone that the pagans cast out demons, too, Jesus gives you an illogic sandwich and tells you that you're on God's shit-list.  

I don't personally think the pharisee was under demon possession at the time.  Indeed, that would only justify it not being his fault.  Let us not forget that the pharisee thought he knew God well.  Arrogance, maybe, but even you exhibit this kind of arrogance, as do I.  Let's say the "real" messiah shows up tomorrow.  Would you recognize him, or would you call him the antichrist, since you know what the Bible says well enough?  Ah, but you wouldn't expect that to happen.  Do you think the pharisees expected the messiah to be a poor guy who just rolled into town one day and started verbally bombing them?

Just by reading, it's really easy to blaspheme the Spirit, and even you say it's sensitive (though why that should be the case, I cannot surmise).  My friend has no reason to believe this (http://70030.netministry.com/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=34812&columnid=3803), this (http://www.rc.net/wcc/readings/matt1231.htm), or even this (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3313&start=15#p44263).  He "knows" what he reads, and what he reads doesn't bode well to him.  I think it's all BS, and I tell him as much.  I mean, come on, it is BS, it doesn't read remotely like a divine book and we know it's been revised time and again.  It doesn't agree with philosophy, science, or unadultered intuition.  It doesn't agree with what you see and hear everyday.  Sometimes, it doesn't agree with itself.  It doesn't agree with reality.  It's BS.

Thanks for trying to help.  I know you wish my friend read it like you, and even I can admit he'd be better off if he did, but that isn't happening.  It's not for lack of trying, either.  Do you really think he's read more of my words than the Bible?  Which do you think he'd rather be the truth so long as he can be guaranteed that truth?  Heck, which do you think I'd prefer was true, if preference could shape the world?  It doesn't read well enough and true enough for me, and it doesn't read reassuringly to him.  It's just not a divine book.

Sorry, I'll keep trying to educate him in the sciences and philosophies, even targeting the biblical dogma for destruction so that he's then free to learn the rest on his own, no reservations.

Oh, and I never meant Christians were afraid of dying with Jesus.  You're afraid of dying without him.