Happy Atheist Forum

I have to wonder IF it actually exists in the US.

A common quote I've heard is "freedom OF religion is not freedom FROM religion"
Should a person not be free "from" religion as well if they so desire?

Is it not because of religious oppression that someone desires freedom "from" religion?

Certainly whatever goes on in your own mind is your own business but the same could be said in Russia during their ban on religion.

Is the US really the "land of the free and the home of the brave"
Or is it The land of the fearful and home of the aggressive zealots?

if freedom of religion did exist, how SHOULD it exist?

Freedom of Religion can't quite exist with Freedom From Religon, in the sense that there will always be people telling us "Jesus Loves You!". It's annoying sure, but I think the freedom for them to do so is important.

Quote from: "Sophus"Freedom of Religion can't quite exist with Freedom From Religon, in the sense that there will always be people telling us "Jesus Loves You!". It's annoying sure, but I think the freedom for them to do so is important.

I hear "freedom from religion" used in a couple of ways, one the way you just used it (and I agree, you really can't be free from religion without impinging on freedom of religion), and meaning that anyone can choose a religion - but must have a religion.

That second usage is the one that gets under my skin. I think folks who use that meaning are probably the same folks who associate "atheist" with amoral hedonists, thinking that morality needs a law-giver.

I see freedom of religion as the freedom to hold an opinion on religion; that is, Christians hold the opinion that Christianity is "right" and the rest are "wrong" (loosely speaking). So, true religious freedom must also encompass the opinion "all religions are 'wrong'". I don't think we're quite there yet, though we are close, as there are states that disallow the irreligious from holding office.

You are right JillSwift. It is Freedom From Intolerance that we need.

I don't know...
sometimes I think that religion should just be something everyone keeps to themselves.

Besides, it's supposed to be personal anyway isn't it?


How would people stop one another from being douches about it other than government regulation?

Quote from: "ProRealism"I don't know...
sometimes I think that religion should just be something everyone keeps to themselves.

Besides, it's supposed to be personal anyway isn't it?


How would people stop one another from being douches about it other than government regulation?

Shifts in the zeitgeist are more effective is one whole heck of a lot slower. I think you'll find that countries that are culturally secular (particularly those wonderful Scandinavian countries) don't need laws to repress religious expression - it just fades of its own accord.

Which is why I prefer campaigns that try to bring secularists, atheists, and humanists "out of the closet" so that we don't seem like some closeted shadow group. The more folks are aware of us and are used to us, the less being atheist will seem "wrong", and the more atheists there will be and fewer folks feeling the need to wear their religion as a chip on their shoulder.

Chip on their shoulder? Like they're daring you to dis-spell their beliefs?

I guess some of them are like that. I think a lot of them though are  just deeply rooted in their fears of Hellfire and DON'T want a challenge.
Otherwise... they should be fine when faced with something to the contrary and be able to laugh it off and go "ohohoho! God explains it with a b and c!"

Quote from: "ProRealism"Chip on their shoulder? Like they're daring you to dis-spell their beliefs?

I guess some of them are like that. I think a lot of them though are just deeply rooted in their fears of Hellfire and DON'T want a challenge.
Otherwise... they should be fine when faced with something to the contrary and be able to laugh it off and go "ohohoho! God explains it with a b and c!"

A christian should never dare anyone to try and dispel their belief that would be arrogant.Being humble is what Jesus calls us to be.We do not always do what we should we are not perfect and God tells us we should never claim to be perfect.I do understand that some christians take it upon themselves to be the judge of all,I've seen it in the churches I've belonged to.If you would give most christians a chance by getting to know them you might find they are really nice people.As for the hellfire thing christians have no reason to be afraid we are saved from hell because we've chosen Jesus as our savior.Now I know that some denomintions believe if one doesn't do everything just right they might lose their salvation and thats sad...that's a discussion for another time.I'm not trying to challenge anyone just wanted to write a few words.

Quote from: "Godschild"A christian should never dare anyone to try and dispel their belief that would be arrogant.Being humble is what Jesus calls us to be.We do not always do what we should we are not perfect and God tells us we should never claim to be perfect.I do understand that some christians take it upon themselves to be the judge of all,I've seen it in the churches I've belonged to.If you would give most christians a chance by getting to know them you might find they are really nice people.As for the hellfire thing christians have no reason to be afraid we are saved from hell because we've chosen Jesus as our savior.Now I know that some denomintions believe if one doesn't do everything just right they might lose their salvation and thats sad...that's a discussion for another time.I'm not trying to challenge anyone just wanted to write a few words.

Well, it's those "judge of all" Christians I'm referring to when I talk about folks wearing their religion as a chip on their shoulder.
The ones who don't understand using the law to enforce their belief system on others is attrition, and as damaging to their faith as their attempts to control other's morals is damaging to society.
But, I suppose it's an easy trap to fall into when you believe you are in possession of "ultimate truth".

Quote from: "ProRealism"I have to wonder IF it actually exists in the US.

A common quote I've heard is "freedom OF religion is not freedom FROM religion"
Should a person not be free "from" religion as well if they so desire?

Is it not because of religious oppression that someone desires freedom "from" religion?

Certainly whatever goes on in your own mind is your own business but the same could be said in Russia during their ban on religion.

Is the US really the "land of the free and the home of the brave"
Or is it The land of the fearful and home of the aggressive zealots?

if freedom of religion did exist, how SHOULD it exist?

Let's examine this for a minute.

God said, "I give you every seed all over the earth for the service of man." does this mean I can smoke marijuana without consequence by federal and state law?

If not, why does America strip away my religious laws? according to the laws of God. he gave mankind the right to every seed on the earth. why is the marijuana seed illegal? isn't this religious discrimination?

Quote from: "Psalm23"isn't this religious discrimination?

No, because the rationale behind those laws is not religious.  There are health, safety, welfare, etc. reasons for banning those substances.  (Not saying I agree with those reasons mind you).

Regarding the original post, the Constitution limits government action.  The idea behind Freedom of Religion is that the government may not specifically target activity in the name of or to promote a particular religious belief, rather, there must be some non-religious rationale (i.e. health, safety, public welfare, etc.) for a law to be valid.

So, keeping in mind that we are only talking about GOVERNMENT ACTION when people argue that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion, they are simply wrong.  The government may not act to impose or otherwise endorse religion.

The Constitution does NOT put limits upon what private citizens may do.

Quote from: "Psalm23"isn't this religious discrimination?

That's funny coming from someone who wants to make their religion a monopoly.

QuoteGod said, "I give you every seed all over the earth for the service of man." does this mean I can smoke marijuana without consequence by federal and state law?

It means your omniscient god is not so wise.

QuoteIf not, why does America strip away my religious laws?

Because, despite the efforts of men like Bush, we're not a theocracy?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm23"isn't this religious discrimination?

That's funny coming from someone who wants to make their religion a monopoly.

QuoteGod said, "I give you every seed all over the earth for the service of man." does this mean I can smoke marijuana without consequence by federal and state law?

It means your omniscient god is not so wise.

QuoteIf not, why does America strip away my religious laws?

Because, despite the efforts of men like Bush, we're not a theocracy?

There is nothing funny about this issue. GOD planted every seed bearing plant, and every seed bearing fruit tree for the service of man, and the govnerment forbids it.

If I choose to smoke a marijuana plant. who has the ultimate power to tell me not to? the feds or GOD?

ACCORDING to my bible. God said "do whatever you wish to these seed bearing plants for your pleasure.."

Revelations talks about the 12 manners of the marijuana plant. did you know that?

Now I know this thread will probably label me as a "pot smoker" but i think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

The Govnerment thinks they are higher than God.

That's the problem..

Quote from: "Psalm23"The Govnerment thinks they are higher than God.

I am very thankful for that!!  Our founding fathers made sure that was ingrained in the Constitution.  It protects us from fascist religious fanatics like Psalm23.

Quote from: "BuckeyeInNC"

Quote from: "Psalm23"The Govnerment thinks they are higher than God.

I am very thankful for that!!  Our founding fathers made sure that was ingrained in the Constitution.  It protects us from fascist religious fanatics like Psalm23.

well, it's just too bad that the modern govnerment is going to soon over-ride the govnerment of old. Marijuana will soon be legal in the United States. Because a natural plant (a gift from God) will sky rocket the economy to unseen numbers. All give thanks to God!!

Quote from: "Psalm23"well, it's just too bad that the modern govnerment is going to soon over-ride the govnerment of old. Marijuana will soon be legal in the United States. Because a natural plant (a gift from God) will sky rocket the economy to unseen numbers. All give thanks to God!!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages32.fotki.com%2Fv1046%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1232424457851-vi.gif&hash=37d4ccb3926471e07f0a3a4657a2b6f3a904573d)

Quote from: "Psalm23"well, it's just too bad that the modern govnerment is going to soon over-ride the govnerment of old. Marijuana will soon be legal in the United States. Because a natural plant (a gift from God) will sky rocket the economy to unseen numbers. All give thanks to God!!

Government of old!?!

You really have no idea what you are talking about.  These prohibition laws are a DIRECT result of religious fanatics like yourself.  Take a look at the Women's Christian Temperance Union which instigitated our current set of drug laws.

Marijuana was not illegal until the mid-1900's.  Do some research on Harry Anslinger and the 1937 Tax act.

While you are at it, rather than reading that mythical drivel you call the Bible, you might want to pull your head out and take a look at how well the religious fanatics were at the base of alcohol prohibition, which lead to marijuana prohibition.  That worked out well too . . . .

Quote from: "BuckeyeInNC"

Quote from: "Psalm23"well, it's just too bad that the modern govnerment is going to soon over-ride the govnerment of old. Marijuana will soon be legal in the United States. Because a natural plant (a gift from God) will sky rocket the economy to unseen numbers. All give thanks to God!!

Government of old!?!

You really have no idea what you are talking about.  These prohibition laws are a DIRECT result of religious fanatics like yourself.  Take a look at the Women's Christian Temperance Union which instigitated our current set of drug laws.

Marijuana was not illegal until the mid-1900's.  Do some research on Harry Anslinger and the 1937 Tax act.

While you are at it, rather than reading that mythical drivel you call the Bible, you might want to pull your head out and take a look at how well the religious fanatics were at the base of alcohol prohibition, which lead to marijuana prohibition.  That worked out well too . . . .

I have documents right here in my hand that shows the U.S Federal Govnerment claimed "Marijuana is the drug of the Devil and it will lead to stronger more deadly drugs!"

THAT'S why it's illegal. but modern science has proven that marijuana does not lead to more dangerous street drugs. that is a man-made myth.

you call me a "religious fanatic" because i believe the marijuana seed should be used as GOD intended?
medicinal purposes? why don't you ask the U.S Federal Govnerment why they allow patients to suffer in pain because they do NOT want to legalize a natural gift from GOD?

Quote from: "Psalm23"I have documents right here in my hand that shows the U.S Federal Govnerment claimed "Marijuana is the drug of the Devil and it will lead to stronger more deadly drugs!"

THAT'S why it's illegal. but modern science has proven that marijuana does not lead to more dangerous street drugs. that is a man-made myth.

You just made my point.  A position that a drug is a "drug of the Devil" is a RELIGIOUS position.  It is the Religious fanatics that used the government as a tool to promote their religious ideologies.

And, yes, I am calling you a religious fanatic BECAUSE you, like the religious fanatics on the other side of the drug issue, rely upon a religious argument in an attempt to shape government policy.

You God says marijuana is good, their God says marijuana is bad.  Both of you are religious fanatics by holding onto such supersitions.

Quote from: "BuckeyeInNC"

Quote from: "Psalm23"I have documents right here in my hand that shows the U.S Federal Govnerment claimed "Marijuana is the drug of the Devil and it will lead to stronger more deadly drugs!"

THAT'S why it's illegal. but modern science has proven that marijuana does not lead to more dangerous street drugs. that is a man-made myth.

You just made my point.  A position that a drug is a "drug of the Devil" is a RELIGIOUS position.  It is the Religious fanatics that used the government as a tool to promote their religious ideologies.

And, yes, I am calling you a religious fanatic BECAUSE you, like the religious fanatics on the other side of the drug issue, rely upon a religious argument in an attempt to shape government policy.

You God says marijuana is good, their God says marijuana is bad.  Both of you are religious fanatics by holding onto such supersitions.

I'm sorry, but i did not make your point. marijuana is a natural gift from GOD. It's hardly the "Devil's drug". The Federal Govnerment tried scaring people into thinking marijuana is bad, bad, bad!! I guess people in the 1930's didn't know any better.

These days, The people of the U.S are pushing to legalize it. Because everyone knows it's NOT SATAN'S DRUG!!! LOL.
The FEDS really had people snow-balled in the early 20th century, eh?

modern science is now telling the FEDS marijuana can be used to cure all sorts of illness.

Gee, GOD said that 3,000 years ago!! LMAO.

WAY TO GO MODERN SCIENCE!!!  

You completely missed and/or ignored my post.

Ignorance must be bliss for you.

How about peyote? That's a natural gift from God, too, right? Or how about psilocybin mushrooms? As natural as natural gets. Should those be made legal, too?

It's like swiss cheese in here.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"How about peyote? That's a natural gift from God, too, right? Or how about psilocybin mushrooms? As natural as natural gets. Should those be made legal, too?

It's like swiss cheese in here.

Show me the bible verse where GOD said poisonous mushrooms are the cure for all sorts of illness to the human body.

swiss cheese indeed..

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"How about peyote? That's a natural gift from God, too, right? Or how about psilocybin mushrooms? As natural as natural gets. Should those be made legal, too?

It's like swiss cheese in here.

Show me the bible verse where GOD said poisonous mushrooms are the cure for all sorts of illness to the human body.

swiss cheese indeed..

Tap tappity tap tap tapdance around the Peyote?

Quote from: "JillSwift"

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"How about peyote? That's a natural gift from God, too, right? Or how about psilocybin mushrooms? As natural as natural gets. Should those be made legal, too?

It's like swiss cheese in here.

Show me the bible verse where GOD said poisonous mushrooms are the cure for all sorts of illness to the human body.

swiss cheese indeed..

Tap tappity tap tap tapdance around the Peyote?

You know as well as I do. Every Tree, Flower and Plant has a purpose in life. Just because it's poisonous to mankind doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose! This was taught in 5th grade Science class!!

Back to the marijuana discussion..

"On either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare 12 manner of fruits, and yielding her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelations 22:1-2

Would you like to discuss those 12 manners?
I know them.. do you?

Quote from: "Palsm""On either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare 12 manner of fruits, and yielding her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelations 22:1-2

Would you like to discuss those 12 manners?

Which, the manners or the fruit?

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Palsm""On either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare 12 manner of fruits, and yielding her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelations 22:1-2

Would you like to discuss those 12 manners?

Which, the manners or the fruit?

1. clothing
2. paper
3. cord
4. sails
5. fishnet
6. oil
7. sealant
8. incense
9. food
10.in ceremony
11. relaxation
12. ..and medicine.

Now you know the 12 manners of the Marijuana plant. (a gift from God-almighty!)

Quote from: "Psalm23"You know as well as I do. Every Tree, Flower and Plant has a purpose in life. Just because it's poisonous to mankind doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose! This was taught in 5th grade Science class!!

Peyote isn't poisonous.

Quote from: "JillSwift"

Quote from: "Psalm23"You know as well as I do. Every Tree, Flower and Plant has a purpose in life. Just because it's poisonous to mankind doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose! This was taught in 5th grade Science class!!

Peyote isn't poisonous.

did GOD almighty say PEYOTE is safe to mankind, and it will cure illness?

yes or no?

you are throwing things at me that don't quite make much sense at all.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Palsm""On either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare 12 manner of fruits, and yielding her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelations 22:1-2

Would you like to discuss those 12 manners?

Which, the manners or the fruit?

1. clothing
2. paper
3. cord
4. sails
5. fishnet
6. oil
7. sealant
8. incense
9. food
10.in ceremony
11. relaxation
12. ..and medicine.

Now you know the 12 manners of the Marijuana plant. (a gift from God-almighty!)

I don't think 11 of those are fruit..  

Though I would like to see a cow grow on a tree, that would be a site to see, it might even make me say, "Glory be!"

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"[I don't think any of those are fruit..  :hmm:  

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "JillSwift"

Quote from: "Psalm23"You know as well as I do. Every Tree, Flower and Plant has a purpose in life. Just because it's poisonous to mankind doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose! This was taught in 5th grade Science class!!

Peyote isn't poisonous.

did GOD almighty say PEYOTE is safe to mankind, and it will cure illness?

yes or no?

you are throwing things at me that don't quite make much sense at all.

Did your imaginary friend mention cannabis sativa? Yes or no? Don't hold one plant to a different standard from another without scripture to back that second standard up.

Note that THC (the active ingredient in marijuana) doesn't cure anything, it just treats symptoms.

Psalm: you're talking about hemp. Hemp and marijuana are not the same thing. They're different varieties of Cannabis sativa. You can smoke marijuana for medicinal purposes. You can make clothes out of hemp. Not vice versa.

Keep reaching, man. Keep reaching.

(Also, see Jill's remark about THC.)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Psalm: you're talking about hemp. Hemp and marijuana are not the same thing. They're different varieties of Cannabis sativa. You can smoke marijuana for medicinal purposes. You can make clothes out of hemp. Not vice versa.

Keep reaching, man. Keep reaching.

(Also, see Jill's remark about THC.)

Yes, and you can also eat marijuana for medicinal purposes as well. GOD has it all figured out, man.. QUIT trying to do the LORDS work..

GOD created this seed before you were born.. and this seed will continue to grow well after you're dead..


"The Lord said unto me, 'I will take my rest and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs." - Isaiah 18:4-5 (This verse is saying.. smoke a marijuana cigarette for relaxation)

". . .And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more." -- Ezekiel 34:29


KEEP IN MIND!!! GOD is not saying.. GO out and buy a pound of dope and party like it's 1999!!!!

he is saying it's ok to smoke for relaxation!!

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Psalm: you're talking about hemp. Hemp and marijuana are not the same thing. They're different varieties of Cannabis sativa. You can smoke marijuana for medicinal purposes. You can make clothes out of hemp. Not vice versa.

Keep reaching, man. Keep reaching.

(Also, see Jill's remark about THC.)

Yes, and you can also eat marijuana for medicinal purposes as well. GOD has it all figured out, man.. QUIT trying to do the LORDS work..

GOD created this seed before you were born.. and this seed will continue to grow well after you're dead..


"The Lord said unto me, 'I will take my rest and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs." - Isaiah 18:4-5

". . .And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more." -- Ezekiel 34:29

Eating marijuana has the same effect as smoking it: panacea, not cure. Ingestion is ingestion, regardless of method.

Fail.

Did you make a point, or just using that post a chance to spit more scripture? I understand if that's all you want to do... it's worked really, really well so far.

Quote from: "Psalm23"no wonder atheism is on the rise.. no one can understand the bible and how it was written.

So much for the divine word of a perfect god right?

Quote from: "Psalm23"just out of sheer curiosity.. can you name one plant that bears 12 different fruits? :brick:

[/quote]

Actually it is possible with simple grafting techniques.  Heck, I've got a fruit coctail tree in my front yard that bears three kinds of fruit (peaches, cherries, apricot.)

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Psalm23"no wonder atheism is on the rise.. no one can understand the bible and how it was written.

So much for the divine word of a perfect god right?

Actually it is possible with simple grafting techniques.  Heck, I've got a fruit coctail tree in my front yard that bears three kinds of fruit (peaches, cherries, apricot.)

The key word here i thought was twelve? you gave me three? I'm not a major in math, but you are nine off from the plant JOHN was talking about...

Keep trying.. and in the end,, you will see he was talking about the POT plant.  

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"So much for the divine word of a perfect god right?

well, gee, lets exmaine this for a second. If I tell my 3 year old son that 3+3=6 and he can't figure it out on his own.. does that mean 3 plus 3 is not 6? .

No! it means you do not understand what you're reading..

Quote from: "Psalm23"The key word here i thought was twelve? you gave me three? I'm not a major in math, but you are nine off from the plant JOHN was talking about...

Keep trying.. and in the end,, you will see he was talking about the POT plant.  

I forget.. what exactly is the point you're trying to make? That one prediction in the Bible will prove another prediction? I think I lost you there.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Psalm23"The key word here i thought was twelve? you gave me three? I'm not a major in math, but you are nine off from the plant JOHN was talking about...

Keep trying.. and in the end,, you will see he was talking about the POT plant.  

I forget.. what exactly is the point you're trying to make? That one prediction in the Bible will prove another prediction? I think I lost you there.

You mean to tell me throughout this entire discussion.. you didn't pick up on what i was saying?? i'm saying.. GOD allows me to smoke marijuana if i choose to. and the Federal Govnerment will not stop me from doing so. America is the land of Religious freedom!! And as far as I know.. As a U.S citizen, I'm allowed to follow the verses of the bible "freely" in this country.. so according to scripture, GOD says "go put clear heat upon the herbs in your state of relaxation." did he not?

America is only free if you keep quiet about religion, and pay your taxes.
if you are caught with marjiuana, you goto state or federal prison.
if you are caught not paying taxes.. you are thrown into a Federal prison.

Where does Freedom begin?

Freedom has it's limits because the U.S Govnerment is a Mafia with a Red, White & Blue Flag on the wall.

Don't be surpised if everything being said in these forums is not being recorded by the F.B.I or Federal Govnerment.

You'd be surpised how crooked mankind is.

This entire thread makes my head hurt even more than the allergies do!

I SWEAR Psalm23 is a troll with this marijuana crap.  It makes my head spin!  How had did you have to work to twist the scriptures to justify smoking weed, dude?  Desperate much?

Quote from: "Psalm23"You mean to tell me throughout this entire discussion.. you didn't pick up on what i was saying??

I apologize. Your intellect and argumentation is so dizzyingly effective that I often get lost in the warm glow of God's embrace.  :pop:

The point that Psalm23 keeps missing is that the drug laws that he complains about are the result of Religious influence upon our government.

Psalm you need to complain about religious entanglement in our government, not the reverse.

Its amusing that he misses this fact completely.