Happy Atheist Forum

Humans make choices, and to be able to choose, they -logically- must have a goal, and my question is: do any human have any ultimate goal other than "feeling good"?
For example: religious people work hard any make sacrifices out of believing that they will be rewarded later, a reward which will make them feel good, OTOH atheists try to enjoy their lives out of believing that there is no afterlife, hence this is no reason not to seek feeling good while alive.
And generally, people do whichever they think is the "right thing" because the "right thing" feels good, in the contrary of the "wrong thing".

I hope I was clear enough.

One word: hedonism.

You pretty much nailed it.  Humans always do what they want the most whenever they are free to do so.  Some people want to feel altruistic, and they are called selfless when it is clearly themselves who drove them to be "selfless."  I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's healthy for us.  Can you imagine what life would be like if you always did what you didn't want to do?  I'm not speaking of having conflicting emotions, or when you have difficulty making a choice, or you don't like the choices presented, as you still do what you choose.  We make choices in the way that best serves our own goals.

This isn't to look down on the actions of others or ourselves, it's a simple fact.  Can you imagine a perfect altruist who was compelled beyond their control to never serve their own interests?  That they were literally out of control of their own bodies and could never do what they desired, because they never desired to help people?  No doubt there are some religious people who would claim they are acting not of their own will, but being divinely driven, but I think it's pretty apparent these people want to be "divinely driven".  

No matter how you look at it, you serve your own interests first.  If you protect your family, it is because you want to.  If you want take a bullet for someone, it is because you wanted to more than you did not.  All humans are vain, we just prefer those whose vanity includes helping others.  Society works best if we work together, so that's not surprising, either.  I'm not selfless, my selfishness just happens to include the wellbeing of others.  

Procreation and survival are generally the main goals, and we only feel good procreating so that our big brains don't get in the way of it. Everything after that is about ego.

My personal opinion on this is people's actions are driven largely by unconcious processess unless they consciously decide to "step into the driver's seat", so to speak. Not only this, but I feel that people not only act towards their self-interests, but also out of concern and care for others whom they are particularly fond of.

For example, it is clear to me that a man who saves his comrade in combat, the one he went through boot camp with and who was his eternal "blood brother" so to speak, is motivated not by the mental high that comes from doing a good deed, but from his concern for his comrade's welfare. To suggest that concern for a friend is overshadowed by mental "highs" seems highly implausible. Bordering on absurdity.

So... yeah. My 2cents.

There are more kinds of feeling good than just physically feeling good.  There are also things that make us emotionally feel good as well.  These are the carrots.

There are also things that feel physically awful or emotionally awful.  These are the sticks.

I'm unashamed to admit I'm a hedonist.  It's a healthy human state to enjoy and seek pleasure in any harmless way one may find it.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"There are more kinds of feeling good than just physically feeling good.

I think you mean, "physical pleasure" and "mental pleasure", but since both are chemical reactions in the brain, I'd say there's only one kind of feeling good. But even if you feel good after helping someone you are emotionally attached to, that doens't mean that "feeling good" was what motivated you. Emotional attachement to a friend is much stronger than a simple "mental high", but ONLY when you help your friend to your own detriment. If it's to your benefit... meh.  

Not for me. I refuse to believe my purpose in life is to release dopamine into my hypophysial portal.

It's worth stating that I don't mean to say it's all about the dopamine high.  It's all about serving your own interests.  If those involve you fighting your pleasure centers, then so be it.  It's also worth mentioning that you probably won't get a good feeling taking a bullet for a friend.  But you will be avoiding an outcome you wanted to avert: your friend getting shot.

You mean is the purpose of life to be selfish? I would say so. Every "selfless" action is done for a selfish reason. In fact to demand or expect selflessness, as society of does, is probably the most selfish thing anyone can do. But I see no reason to think of selfishness as a bad thing. Just has a bad rap.

Also I don't think most people seek happiness. I think everyone seeks satisfaction. Many people are only satisfied when they're happy. So they're discontent more frequently.

Not a bad thing at all about selfishness.  It only makes sense.


I don't know about the last part.  Happiness is a little hard to nail down.  If you mean going to sleep content every night, then it's far different than always smiling in giddiness.  If most people think happiness is living in glee or without conflict, then I reckon most don't look for it and even fewer achieve it.  I enjoy life, even the downs, probably to my detriment, and if that is happy, then I am happy.  If it's something else, well, I'm not happy often then, but it doesn't bother me.  

Quote from: "PipeBox"Not a bad thing at all about selfishness.  It only makes sense.


I don't know about the last part.  Happiness is a little hard to nail down.  If you mean going to sleep content every night, then it's far different than always smiling in giddiness.  If most people think happiness is living in glee or without conflict, then I reckon most don't look for it and even fewer achieve it.  I enjoy life, even the downs, probably to my detriment, and if that is happy, then I am happy.  If it's something else, well, I'm not happy often then, but it doesn't bother me.  

I see what you're saying. Perhaps you are right. I guess it's just been my personal experience that many of the people I know are only satisfied when they're happy. So they're frequently unhappy. It's not at all charming.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Can you imagine what life would be like if you always did what you didn't want to do?  

Well you can choose the lesser of two evils, neither are things you "want" but one is "less bad" than the other.
Having one of your legs cut off vs both of them.
I see that more as "wanting" to KEEP one of your legs than losing both instead of "I want to LOSE one of my legs"

QuoteThis isn't to look down on the actions of others or ourselves, it's a simple fact.  Can you imagine a perfect altruist who was compelled beyond their control to never serve their own interests?  That they were literally out of control of their own bodies and could never do what they desired, because they never desired to help people?  No doubt there are some religious people who would claim they are acting not of their own will, but being divinely driven, but I think it's pretty apparent these people want to be "divinely driven".  

Of course they do. They get some sense of gratification from doing acts of altruism and by "serving god" but I'm sure there are atheists who do the same for the serving of their own egos rather than a fictitious deity or rather, they're more willing to admit that it's for their own satisfaction than pretending it's for a "higher purpose".

QuoteNo matter how you look at it, you serve your own interests first.  If you protect your family, it is because you want to.  If you want take a bullet for someone, it is because you wanted to more than you did not.  All humans are vain, we just prefer those whose vanity includes helping others.  Society works best if we work together, so that's not surprising, either.  I'm not selfless, my selfishness just happens to include the wellbeing of others.  

Although that's true what do we owe the definitions of these words?
I think it's somewhat important to have more universal understandings of words and concepts otherwise we could run up to charity organizations and tell them they're being selfish even if it is technically true.

QuoteOf course they do. They get some sense of gratification from doing acts of altruism and by "serving god" but I'm sure there are atheists who do the same for the serving of their own egos rather than a fictitious deity or rather, they're more willing to admit that it's for their own satisfaction than pretending it's for a "higher purpose".

Yes, I enjoy helping people.  I also enjoy trying to ensure the long term survival of my species (in many ways).

What of it?

Quote from: "hobo child"Yes, I enjoy helping people.  I also enjoy trying to ensure the long term survival of my species (in many ways).

What of it?

I think that's "better" than being "good" with the anticipation of reward after death.
If a good deed is it's own reward then you get far more pleasure than someone who thinks "oh only when I die!"

I guess that may explain why so many Christians are jerks...

At first, I would like to thank you all for participating in the discussion.

@curiosityandthecat
(I didn't really get it) are you with or against Hedonism? and if against, what are other options, I mean what could be the ultimate goal other than self interests?

@Will
I believe that we choose to procreate ultimately because it feels good, perhaps so that we see our children around us, or because to acknowledge that our species survived, etc.
but in the end we choose that because it felt good, meaning that subgoals differ whereas the ultimate goal is the same.

@SektionTen
Again, our actions towards those we are fond of only exists because it feels good to see them happy and safe etc., or (pretty much the same) because it feels bad not to (the very reason why we help people we are attached to).

@Sophus
Ultimately we seek a good feeling, no matter what we call it (satisfaction or happiness).

@ProRealism
I agree, we probably should define words such as selflessness and selfishness.

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@everyone
Excuse me for repeating the words "feel good" and "feel bad", but only to emphasize that I am talking about the same thing
and another thing, my opinions are not necessarily true, so don't hesitate to tell me if you think am wrong.

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Yes, I enjoy helping people

It still counts as helping someone if you laugh about it later, right?

Quote from: "Lawand"@Sophus
Ultimately we seek a good feeling, no matter what we call it (satisfaction or happiness).

This is note true at all. I value knowledge well over any feeling. Furthermore there is a great distinction between happiness and satisfaction.

Quote from: "Sophus"I value knowledge well over any feeling.

...thus your user name?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Lawand"@Sophus
Ultimately we seek a good feeling, no matter what we call it (satisfaction or happiness).

This is note true at all. I value knowledge well over any feeling. Furthermore there is a great distinction between happiness and satisfaction.

I think happiness and satisfaction go hand in hand. I don't think you can feel one with out the other.

Quote from: "jcm"I think happiness and satisfaction go hand in hand. I don't think you can feel one with out the other.

You have never felt content without feeling joyful?

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"...thus your user name?

Ha ha. Actually hence my real name. I've never met anyone else in the States who share it but I have come across a few historical figures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophus_Lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophus_Lie)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophus_Bugge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophus_Bugge)

QuoteYou have never felt content without feeling joyful?

I was looking at it the other way. i don't think you are really happy unless you are satisfied. i see your point.

Quote from: "jcm"I was looking at it the other way. i don't think you are really happy unless you are satisfied. i see your point.

Ah, I see. Communication error on my part. In any case I agree that satisfaction is necessary for happiness but not vice versa.

It seems to me that if we eliminate the possibility of altruism we trap ourselves into a pretty deterministic lifestyle. Say for example a secret service officer charged with the duty of protecting the president sees a bullet headed straight for the president. Lets just say in this hypothetical that this man believes in no afterlife, and he currently has a perfectly happy life. Now lets say as he sees the bullet coming he weighs his two options. On the one hand he sees himself jumping in front and taking the hit and losing his life and on the other he sees himself living a life filled with joy, happiness, satisfaction ect. Now if we claim that he must do the thing which brings happiness it seems to me that he would have to stand still while the president is shot down, and if he must do this how can he then be reprehended for it? if he had no other choice than it seems to me he cannot be held responsible for not doing his job. In fact it seems to me that freewill for the most part is obsolete if we eliminate the possibility of altruism. Now this wasn't even supposed to be a discussion on altruism but I seem to have made it so, and for that I apologize."Feeling good" is a pretty broad and abstract way of posing the question. If by ultimate goal you are meaning to say that we are forced to act according to what makes us satisfied I would disagree...

Thus speaketh the hedonist.

A person always does what they want.  Happiness, contentedness, satisfaction and so on might be reduced to semantics.  Obviously a person will not only be presented with desirable choices for the duration of their life, and if only having compete freedom of choice to build a world centered on your joy counts as achieving happiness, then no, we cannot always be happy, and it cannot realistically be a goal.  Personally, I know the world is deterministic (on every level where it is not indeterministic, which is limited to electron probability clouds and the like, and even these have rules; constraints which allow you to dictate what can happen and what cannot, leaving some level of determinism), I know there is no true altruism, and, this is the important thing, I know philosophy does not always offer beneficial ways of thinking.  Suppose I gave you an air-tight argument that you are not who you were when you started reading my post.  Even if it's the truth, does it benefit you to live like that?  No one ever said all thought had practical application, so if we're not careful, we might get ourselves killed on the next zebra crossing.  As soon as I'm done with this post, I'm going continue living like there is altruism, and as though my actions are not deterministic but wholly of my incorruptable, external volition, because that is most beneficial to me (eh, does that mean I'm selfish for discarding my own philosophy for my personal benefit?   ;)

It seems like this picking and choosing of which answers in life we accept resembles the man who doesn't believe in god and yet calls himself a christian in order to live life free from "religious persecution". I would like to think that I follow the truth wherever it leads but I know I have avoided unlikable answers before, and its come back to haunt me. Hypocritical living is dangerous, I would criticize the man who rejects living life in line with reality in order to live blissfully (like the christian atheist earlier). I'm not saying that you are living a hypocritical life or anything, i'm just throwing ideas out there, let me know if I'm making any sense.

From what I've heard It seems to me that altruism has already been covered here at the HAF, i'll do some forum searching but I don't want to beat a dead horse. Thanks for your response pipebox, you have an interesting philosophy on life ;]