Happy Atheist Forum

1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.

2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)

3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.

5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.

6) Consider others above yourself.

7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.

8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)

9) Do not cease in doing good.

10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)

Please list the statements that you don't agree with and why. I really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

You are listing all the good ones, what about the Homosexuality is bad, or that one about the bull attacking a slave?

How about the part where God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from an unfair rule that he created.  I say unfair because it is no way just to make others suffer for the screw up of two people.  It's also not just to have eternal punishment for finite wrongdoings.

The list you provided is not one you'd necessarily have to be a Christian to accept.

Quote from: "perspective"I really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

Posting your version of the ten commandments and then asking us that question is a bit like asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

The "ten" commandments with which you are likely referring to as being "Christian" were adopted from prior non-Christian religions.

Ever read the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

Actually most of what I posted came from the mouth of Jesus, not the ten commandments. Further, I am not talking about Jewish law so your arguments from the Old Testament are void. I am talking about the way Christains are commanded to live. (period) In what ways are Christians supposed to live don't agree with. Also, I think I did mention homosexuality when I mentioned loving you spouse and pro-creating, can't do that with the same sex. I am solely talking about the living out of the Christian life by being humble and loving. What do you find so offending about that?

Ohh and when did self sacrifice for the love of others who could not help themselves become a bad thing. I think thats what humnas what the most since it is so prevalent in our culture (i.e. every hero movie to exist, which become the highest grossing movies in Hollywood.) I think that tells something about what speaks to the heart. Why do hate God for doing it, but love Christian Bale.(maybe its the cape) Dont be so hypocritical.

I disagree with whatever part prevents me from sacrificing children and raping nuns. Damn Christians tryin' to take away all my fun.  

Point taken.  I thought you were implying that the list of principles that your provided were solely Christian in origin.

Personally, I am not offended at all by Christianity.  People believe alot of weird things, UFOs, the moon landing was fake, the Bible, etc. and it does not affect me.

What I DO find offensive is when the religious impose their views on others and when those in political power over me take irrational positions based upon their wacky religious beliefs.

2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)
Yes, but within reason. If my dad asks me to take out the trash, I'll take out the trash, but it he hits me, I'm not going to turn the other cheek. I'll call the police. It's all a part of the social contract, you see. If you are treated well by someone, you're more likely to return that good behavior. Raising me, clothing me, feeding me were all acts of selfless kindness (reinforced by innate survival instincts) on the part of my parents, therefore I should return that respect and kindness. If I had bad parents, though, I'd be under no obligation to treat them well and with nothing but kindness.
3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.
Again, this is a bit absolutist. If someone attacks me, I will defend myself within reason.
4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.
Selfishness is a part of being human, just as altruism is a part of being human. We seek to survive on an individual level just as empathy helps us survive on a species level.
5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.
This is the same as #1.
6) Consider others above yourself.
Sure, evolutionary altruism seems to support this to a point, but eventually sevring others can become unhealthy. It can become codependence.
7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.
Yes.
8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)
Claim?
9) Do not cease in doing good.
Good is pretty subjective. What is good to you may not necessarily be good to me.
10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)
I disagree with the first three outright. I have no gods whatsoever, therefore I cannot hold the Judeo-Christian god before anything else. I do swear occasionally, although it's more of a reflex. I certainly don't observe the Sabbath. I work when work needs doing. The only commandment I happen to observe absolutely is the fifth. I will not murder regardless of circumstances because of my own, subjective belief that human life is very important, certainly more important than any belief or ideology (I'm speaking in general terms). Each of the othersâ€"obey authority, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie, don't covetâ€"can fall into moral gray areas, especially when given their appropriate religious context. Adultery according to the Bible is simply thinking of someone in a sexual manner. I do that, you do that, the whole species does that, and there's nothing at all wrong with it. Don't steal? Our way of life rests squarely on exploitation of workers from third world countries, which I see as egregious theft. Don't lie? Sure, under most circumstances, but what happens when the consequences of a lie are better than the truth? Don't covet? There's nothing wrong with weighing your wants. I'd like to fix my garage so that it's similar to a garage of a friend of mine, because my friend's garage is a lot more functional than mine.

Quote from: "perspective"Actually most of what I posted came from the mouth of Jesus, not the ten commandments. Further, I am not talking about Jewish law so your arguments from the Old Testament are void. I am talking about the way Christains are commanded to live. (period) In what ways are Christians supposed to live don't agree with. Also, I think I did mention homosexuality when I mentioned loving you spouse and pro-creating, can't do that with the same sex. I am solely talking about the living out of the Christian life by being humble and loving. What do you find so offending about that?

So you don't believe that Jesus was referencing the ten commandments? Also, didn't Jesus say,

Quote from: "Jesus, via Matthew 5:18-19"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That clearly says that the "jewish law" of the old testament isn't void. According to the Jesus of the Bible, all of OT law is still in place and you have to follow it.

Would you be offended if you couldn't conceive children and I forced you to divorce your spouse? Because by your logic, that procreating is a part of marriage, that would mean anyone unwilling or unable to have children shouldn't be able to get married. Moreover, within the next few years, lesbians will likely be able to reproduce. So heterosexual people unable to conceive can't get married, but lesbians can.

Quote from: "perspective"Ohh and when did self sacrifice for the love of others who could not help themselves become a bad thing. I think thats what humnas what the most since it is so prevalent in our culture (i.e. every hero movie to exist, which become the highest grossing movies in Hollywood.) I think that tells something about what speaks to the heart. Why do hate God for doing it, but love Christian Bale.(maybe its the cape) Dont be so hypocritical.

Perspective...you need to rethink your tone because you are not being civil towards the nonbelievers on this forum.  You have already force fed us our own thoughts more than once in this thread.

No one said that self sacrifice is bad.  No one said that they hate God (you can't hate what you don't believe is real).

First of all, keep in mind Christianity does not own these morals. They are in no way exclusive to members of your faith. Second I agree with none as I am an Ethical Nihilist.

1) I try not to be jealous, but it happens.  It's a normal human emotion.

2) I honored my parents.  But would not hesitate to tell a child in an abusive household to get out.  Not all parents are good for their children.

3) Sometimes - I believe in defending myself against harm from others.

4) Again, I try to be humble, but taking pride in one's self and work is also normal.

5) Nope.  I'm not the submissive type.  We are the government.  We are the company.  I think for myself.

6) Without self, I cannot do anything for others.

7) Yes. The less fortunate should be cared for.

8) Faithful to wife? Yes.  Children? No thank you.  No need to procreate.  Plenty to go around.

9) I do good, but it may not be the same as your definition.

10) Which 10 commandments?  There are three sets, you know.

I will say this: I've never broken the 10th commandment.  Yuppers.  Never seethed a kid in it's mothers milk.

No goat boiling for me,
JoeActor

Quote from: "Will"2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)
Yes, but within reason. If my dad asks me to take out the trash, I'll take out the trash, but it he hits me, I'm not going to turn the other cheek. I'll call the police. It's all a part of the social contract, you see. If you are treated well by someone, you're more likely to return that good behavior. Raising me, clothing me, feeding me were all acts of selfless kindness (reinforced by innate survival instincts) on the part of my parents, therefore I should return that respect and kindness. If I had bad parents, though, I'd be under no obligation to treat them well and with nothing but kindness.
3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.
Again, this is a bit absolutist. If someone attacks me, I will defend myself within reason.
4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.
Selfishness is a part of being human, just as altruism is a part of being human. We seek to survive on an individual level just as empathy helps us survive on a species level.
5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.
This is the same as #1.
6) Consider others above yourself.
Sure, evolutionary altruism seems to support this to a point, but eventually sevring others can become unhealthy. It can become codependence.
7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.
Yes.
8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)
Claim?
9) Do not cease in doing good.
Good is pretty subjective. What is good to you may not necessarily be good to me.
10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)
I disagree with the first three outright. I have no gods whatsoever, therefore I cannot hold the Judeo-Christian god before anything else. I do swear occasionally, although it's more of a reflex. I certainly don't observe the Sabbath. I work when work needs doing. The only commandment I happen to observe absolutely is the fifth. I will not murder regardless of circumstances because of my own, subjective belief that human life is very important, certainly more important than any belief or ideology (I'm speaking in general terms). Each of the othersâ€"obey authority, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie, don't covetâ€"can fall into moral gray areas, especially when given their appropriate religious context. Adultery according to the Bible is simply thinking of someone in a sexual manner. I do that, you do that, the whole species does that, and there's nothing at all wrong with it. Don't steal? Our way of life rests squarely on exploitation of workers from third world countries, which I see as egregious theft. Don't lie? Sure, under most circumstances, but what happens when the consequences of a lie are better than the truth? Don't covet? There's nothing wrong with weighing your wants. I'd like to fix my garage so that it's similar to a garage of a friend of mine, because my friend's garage is a lot more functional than mine.
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Very good response. For 1, 2 you are confusing obedience with respect. Common respect for anyone no mater what they have or have not done is the underlying concept Especially to those that gave you life. Also, I am not saying let someone beat you up without defending yourself. for 6 there is not the implication of serving others to the detriment of self. For 8 I mean that if you really love someone you will not desire another. For 9 common since lets you know what good is and for the Christain good as it is described in the Bible. and Finally my favorite 10 to which you quoted Scripture. Jesus indeed said those words. But happily he was the one that "till all be fullfilled" is talking about. He meet the requirements of the law so yes I can say that the Jewish law does not apply. By the way Im not preaching, you brought up the quote so I was just explaining it. Finally, the sole purpose of marriage is not procreation, so I would not be offened if I could not have children. So your last paragraph does not apply. Actually, If the government says that homosexual people can be legally recognized as married then I would not fight it. I do have a problem with homosexuals wanting to get "married" (a religious term and a religious ceromony) in a church (a religious place). Why should the church be forced to something, the same as you claim that Christians are trying to force others. That is hypocritical. If they want to be civily united (sanctioned by the secular government) Then I support it 100%

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "perspective"Ohh and when did self sacrifice for the love of others who could not help themselves become a bad thing. I think thats what humnas what the most since it is so prevalent in our culture (i.e. every hero movie to exist, which become the highest grossing movies in Hollywood.) I think that tells something about what speaks to the heart. Why do hate God for doing it, but love Christian Bale.(maybe its the cape) Dont be so hypocritical.

Perspective...you need to rethink your tone because you are not being civil towards the nonbelievers on this forum.  You have already force fed us our own thoughts more than once in this thread.

No one said that self sacrifice is bad.  No one said that they hate God (you can't hate what you don't believe is real).

Ok I used "hate" when you used "unfair" I appologize. Why do you think it is "unfair" for God to do something, but its "fair" for others. I hope this clears my previous statement.

Quote from: "Sophus"First of all, keep in mind Christianity does not own these morals. They are in no way exclusive to members of your faith. Second I agree with none as I am an Ethical Nihilist.

I never said these tenants were exclusively Christian, But they certainly are distinctivly Christian and Originally Christian. Further, it is most illogical to be a nihilist. <--- Defend this claim.

Quote from: "perspective"1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.

Jealousy can be a positive driving force, though.

Quote from: "perspective"2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)

Parents don't automatically deserve respect and honor. They'll have to earn it like anyone else.

Quote from: "perspective"3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

I think you should resist those who seek to harm you. A greater feat is obviously trying to affecct people so that they don't want to harm you in the first place.

Quote from: "perspective"4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.

Selfish reasons are perfectly good reasons to do something. In fact I'd argue there aren't many truly selfless reasons.

Quote from: "perspective"5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.

As with parents authority doesn't deserve immunity from questioning, and overthrowing. This is obviously a pre democratic notion.

Quote from: "perspective"6) Consider others above yourself.

See 4.

Quote from: "perspective"7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.

Help them help themselves.

Quote from: "perspective"8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)

Some people manage to have happy relations without faithfulness. I'm not one of them, but I see no reason to enforce faithfulness.
I feel that 'consenting adults' is a much more useful guideline.

I see no reason to propagate child bearing in a world that already seems to house more humans than it can cope with.

Quote from: "perspective"9) Do not cease in doing good.

Doesn't really say much, does it. What is good?

Quote from: "perspective"10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)

There are several commandments which I strongly disagree with (the first three for instance )

Quote from: "perspective"Please list the statements that you don't agree with and why. I really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

The major part of christianity I disagree with is "a god exists".

Quote from: "perspective"Finally, the sole purpose of marriage is not procreation, so I would not be offened if I could not have children. So your last paragraph does not apply.

I was responding to this:

Quote from: "perspective"Also, I think I did mention homosexuality when I mentioned loving you spouse and pro-creating, can't do that with the same sex.

You made it clear that procreation was a necessary ingredient in marriage. It's not the sole purpose, but it's required.

Quote from: "perspective"Actually, If the government says that homosexual people can be legally recognized as married then I would not fight it. I do have a problem with homosexuals wanting to get "married" (a religious term and a religious ceromony) in a church (a religious place). Why should the church be forced to something, the same as you claim that Christians are trying to force others. That is hypocritical. If they want to be civily united (sanctioned by the secular government) Then I support it 100%

The ceremony and social reality of matrimony predates religion (and even civilization) by thousands of years, so I'm afraid I have to disagree with your assertion that marriage is a religious term and ceremony. It has become something that, for some, is associated with religion, but it's not strictly religious. Atheists get married, too.

Anyway, the honest truth is that if homosexual marriage were legalized, no church would be forced to marry them. I promise you. Many churches now are perfectly willing to marry homosexual couples but are prevented from legally doing so under law. Why would homosexuals need to force unwilling churches when there are plenty of willing churches? It is a falsehood perpetrated by dishonest people that homosexuals want to force churches to marry them. I suspect you were simply mislead by these people. As one who has been a part of the gay rights movement for over 10 years, I can tell you that they're wrong.

Quote from: "perspective"

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "perspective"Ohh and when did self sacrifice for the love of others who could not help themselves become a bad thing. I think thats what humnas what the most since it is so prevalent in our culture (i.e. every hero movie to exist, which become the highest grossing movies in Hollywood.) I think that tells something about what speaks to the heart. Why do hate God for doing it, but love Christian Bale.(maybe its the cape) Dont be so hypocritical.

Perspective...you need to rethink your tone because you are not being civil towards the nonbelievers on this forum.  You have already force fed us our own thoughts more than once in this thread.

No one said that self sacrifice is bad.  No one said that they hate God (you can't hate what you don't believe is real).

Ok I used "hate" when you used "unfair" I appologize. Why do you think it is "unfair" for God to do something, but its "fair" for others. I hope this clears my previous statement.

Please go back and re-read my statement.  I never said anything was fair for others and don't see how what I said related to actions that could be done by others.

Well, taking into consideration your clarification on a few of them, I agree with them all, except maybe 10, because I'm still not entirely clear on what you mean.  So, uhh, what do we do when I agree?  

I mean, I think I know what your getting at, but having a moral system I agree with isn't a reason for me to adopt a religion.  I do well enough without, and besides, if I came to you with that same list but a wholly different religion tied to it, I doubt you'd convert.  There has to be something to substantiate it.  But maybe you just wanted to get some feedback on your list, I dunno.

Let's see. My answers below each one.

1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.
No disagreement there.

2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)
Ok here too.

3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.
OK, got a problem with this one. Try to harm or kill me, and not only will I not let you, I will make sure you are brought to justice for trying.

4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.
I seek self-preservation and preservation of living things. If that's selfish, then I disagree with the statement.

5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.
Substitute the words ethics and justice for good morals, and I'm ok with this.

6) Consider others above yourself.
Then why do they tell you to put the mask on yourself before any children seated near you in preflight briefings?
 

7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.
Already do.

8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)
No dice on the second part. Love does not need to be manifested in bearing children.

9) Do not cease in doing good.
Good here too.

Well, that's about it.

Quote from: "perspective"1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.

Why not?

Quote2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)

Giving birth and/or providing sperm do not automatically make someone parent of the year.

Quote3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

Fuck that.

Quote4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.

Most of what people do is for selfish reasons even when disguised as charity.

Quote5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.

Were this to be done there would have been no civil rights movements, no revolutions and so forth and who's morals are we talking about?  Not everyone's is the same.

Quote6) Consider others above yourself.

Why?

Quote7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.

Take care of the homeless, poor and destitute?  Then who will take care of me?  Not like I'm Donald friggin' Trump here.

Quote8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)

You've obviously never had an ex-wife.

Quote9) Do not cease in doing good.

By who's definition?

Quote10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)

The 10 commandments, psstffffftttt...the only one's not relating to ridiculous crap like graven images and having no other gods such as the couple you specified predate Christianity and even the precursors to that religion as well.  Those "universal morals" are a product of our evolutionary ancestry as social primates.

Squid seems to have climbed inisde my brain and transcribed my thoughts regarding these questions, spooky.

2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)
I love my father, but I don't honor him. We have some things in common, but I don't always  agree with him.

3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.
No way!

4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.
It is good to be proud of your accomplishments, even if it sounds selfish. Being humble all the time, reduces your chances in life. People will be unaware of your strengths and capabilities, so that you'll end up with a boring job, doing boring things.

5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.
Absolutely ridiculous.

6) Consider others above yourself.
No, why should I?

8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)
I'm faithful to my wife, but we don't want to have children. Love has nothing to do with bearing children!

10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)
I think this sums up pretty well what I think about the 10 commandments
[youtube:3kkiytzf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8[/youtube:3kkiytzf]

Oooh, this looks like a fun game!

1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.
Jealousy and envy are a strong motivation for me. They are good things if you use them to help pull yourself up, rather than to pull someone else down. The bible's view on this makes no sense at all.

2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)
If they raise me well, which they have (after all, I did end up an atheist :p .)

3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.
Hahaha what? If someone seeks me harm, I will resist, and I will not "love" them for it. That said, I won't be stubborn and not forgive them if they are able to redeem themselves appropriatly.

4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.
This is just too absolutist for me. Being proud of something I am good at is no sin. And most of what I do is for selfish reasons. It is only when it harms others that I have a moral judgement to make.

5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.
No, be respective, but assertive and confident in myself where possible.

6) Consider others above yourself.
I hate to say it, but I am the most important person to me, and I will act as such. Even so, I consider myself a reasonably generous and selfless person...but this isn't a matter of principle, it is a matter of upbringing and instinct.

7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.
I do fully agree with this.

8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)
The first part for sure, the second part, if I have children, it will be for selfish reasons. (As in, I want children.)

9) Do not cease in doing good.
I couldn't if I tried. Although it is a pretty vague statement.

10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)
Some of them are reasonable although should never be presented as absolute (do not kill, steal.) Others are downright BS. Like don't swear have no other god than him, the sabbath. Overall, as a moral code, the commandments are no worth the stones they were carved onto. And thats even when we are considering the popular, dumbed down version, which doesn't talk about coveting slaves and all that...and that is only one of three versions of the commandments, each more batty than the last.
Please list the statements that you don't agree with and why. I really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

Quote from: "perspective"Actually most of what I posted came from the mouth of Jesus, not the ten commandments. Further, I am not talking about Jewish law so your arguments from the Old Testament are void. I am talking about the way Christains are commanded to live. (period) In what ways are Christians supposed to live don't agree with. Also, I think I did mention homosexuality when I mentioned loving you spouse and pro-creating, can't do that with the same sex. I am solely talking about the living out of the Christian life by being humble and loving. What do you find so offending about that?

I have an issue with being commanded by anyone, let alone some invisible sky bully. As Whitney said, you do not have to be christian to uphold these statements. Don't confuse simple humanism for religion.

Quote from: "perspective"Ohh and when did self sacrifice for the love of others who could not help themselves become a bad thing. I think thats what humnas what the most since it is so prevalent in our culture (i.e. every hero movie to exist, which become the highest grossing movies in Hollywood.) I think that tells something about what speaks to the heart. Why do hate God for doing it, but love Christian Bale.(maybe its the cape) Dont be so hypocritical.

Exactly what did he die for?
If jesus saved hundreds of school kids from a burning building, then died of smoke inhilation, THEN he'd get lots more respect.

Fortunately none of it ever existed so the entire point is moot.

Quote from: "perspective"I do have a problem with homosexuals wanting to get "married" (a religious term and a religious ceromony) in a church (a religious place). Why should the church be forced to something, the same as you claim that Christians are trying to force others. That is hypocritical. If they want to be civily united (sanctioned by the secular government) Then I support it 100%

The way in which a marriage is conducted has changed over time, as has the institution itself. Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends or religious beliefs concerning the origins of marriage. The anciant Greeks got married. Ancient druids got married. Pagans got married (before the christians killed them all).
Marriage certainly is not a christian invention, nor is it solely theirs to call the shots with.

Quote from: "Will"The ceremony and social reality of matrimony predates religion (and even civilization) by thousands of years, so I'm afraid I have to disagree with your assertion that marriage is a religious term and ceremony. It has become something that, for some, is associated with religion, but it's not strictly religious. Atheists get married, too.

Anyway, the honest truth is that if homosexual marriage were legalized, no church would be forced to marry them. I promise you. Many churches now are perfectly willing to marry homosexual couples but are prevented from legally doing so under law. Why would homosexuals need to force unwilling churches when there are plenty of willing churches? It is a falsehood perpetrated by dishonest people that homosexuals want to force churches to marry them. I suspect you were simply mislead by these people. As one who has been a part of the gay rights movement for over 10 years, I can tell you that they're wrong.

While a disagree that marriage predates religion since there never was a time without religion, just a time such as now that people chose to forget it. Anyway, lets give that one to you. Even if that is the case marriage to the church is definitely defined as a religious ceremony in which two people are wed by an oath witnessed by God and the church. I don't think you can agrue with that. Further, the term marriage is a default religious term, heck the Catholics regard it as a sacrament. So I think you understand my point. Again if homosexuals want to get civily united by the judge at the courthouse, then I 100% think that they should have that right.

Ok and now the point of my original post. Most of you (some with mild execptions to the tenants) argeed with the moral or social principles that Christians are called to live by. So my point is to say that you really don't have problems with Christians (if they live like they claim they ought) but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

Quote from: "perspective"Ok and now the point of my original post. Most of you (some with mild execptions to the tenants) argeed with the moral or social principles that Christians are called to live by. So my point is to say that you really don't have problems with Christians (if they live like they claim they ought) but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

NO...again, you are feeding your ideas into our views.

We simply have problems with things that are not true.

That said, there are a lot of things written in the bible that I take issue with...the things you listed just aren't in my top 10.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "perspective"Ok and now the point of my original post. Most of you (some with mild execptions to the tenants) argeed with the moral or social principles that Christians are called to live by. So my point is to say that you really don't have problems with Christians (if they live like they claim they ought) but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

NO...again, you are feeding your ideas into our views.

We simply have problems with things that are not true.

That said, there are a lot of things written in the bible that I take issue with...the things you listed just aren't in my top 10.

OK well Santa Clause is not true, but when things are not true people tend to just dismiss it and move on. If it was JUST a problem of Christianity not being true then why the proactive steps to destory it. As one famous Atheist said, " We will free the world from the rotting corps of Christianity." Strong words against something that is JUST untrue fairy tale. Or how about the head of an atheist organization who said, "I am going to give God the fight of His life." Wierd words for someone who shouldn't even believe in a God to fight with. Please don't flater yourselves that all this is about is intelect.

Quote from: "perspective"While a disagree that marriage predates religion since there never was a time without religion, just a time such as now that people chose to forget it. Anyway, lets give that one to you.

There's no evidence of organized religion before Mesopotamia, about 6,000 years ago. Humans have been around for about 100,000 years. The best guesses of anthropologists and archeologists place the first worship of gods at around 12,000 years ago, with the worship of natural phenomena that were assigned personalities.

Quote from: "perspective"Even if that is the case marriage to the church is definitely defined as a religious ceremony in which two people are wed by an oath witnessed by God and the church. I don't think you can agrue with that. Further, the term marriage is a default religious term, heck the Catholics regard it as a sacrament. So I think you understand my point. Again if homosexuals want to get civily united by the judge at the courthouse, then I 100% think that they should have that right.

Marriage is a formal union between two (or more than two, where polygamy is legal) individuals recognized by law. That it often happens in a church is simply a reflection of the particular faiths of those two individuals, it has no necessary bearing on the definition of the ceremony. A justice can marry me and a woman without any religion involved, and it's a recognized marriage. And worse still, civil unions are not the same legally as marriage. Just today, I read a story about a lesbian woman, dying in a hospital in Florida, who's partner and adopted children were not allowed to see her before she died.

Catholics also consider ingesting of bread and wine to be a sacrament, but that doesn't mean that my ingesting of bread and wine means I'm being sanctified, it just means I'm hungry and thirsty.

Quote from: "perspective"Ok and now the point of my original post. Most of you (some with mild execptions to the tenants) argeed with the moral or social principles that Christians are called to live by. So my point is to say that you really don't have problems with Christians (if they live like they claim they ought) but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

Unfortunately, most Christians have widely varied interpretations of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I know of some Christians that believe in a woman's right to choose, full homosexual equality, etc. and they're able to back up their positions with citations directly from the Bible. I know of some Christians that believe in the sanctity of the life of a fetus and believe that homosexuality is an abomination, and they are also able to back up their positions with citations directly from the Bible. Who's right, perspective? Well, they both are. If you've read the Bible as much as I have, you know there's a lot of information and a lot of conflicting principles. Some of the Bible was written by expansionist Israelites, some was written by persecuted minorities. Some of the Bible was written by Jews, some by Christians. Some of the Bible was written by strict misogynists, some... well actually there's not a lot of progressive stuff in the Bible about women, but that's not important.

I'm glad you've managed to boil down Christianity to a few simple principles, and the ones you've chosen lead me to believe that you live by similar principles to myself, but you aren't representing all Christians. You're just one Christian. If all Christians lived by the specific interpretations you posted, we might be in a better place, I don't know. Still, you should probably admit to yourself that you have a subjective interpretation of scripture, and that your interpretation is no more or less valid than any other interpretation, and that there are a vast array of interpretations out there, things that would fill your heart with gladness to things that would haunt you for the rest of your days. And I know it's tempting at this point to use a no true Scotsman (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/) fallacy, and claim that they're not real Christians... but they are. All you need to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Everything after that is a jumbled mess of multi-denominational interpretations.


So, to speak to what I think is your point, some Christians treat atheists just fine. Some Christians would be considered by your average atheist to be a "good person" and we'd have no quarrel or problem whatsoever with him or her. Some Christians, however, are trouble. Some seek to impose their beliefs and principles on others, and historically these types end up being in leadership positions. Think of the most famous Christian leaders today. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, and Robert Schuller come immediately to mind. Which one of these ministers would agree with you that all gay people should have civil unions? Which of these ministers could even be considered moderate? The loudest voices are usually the most extreme.  If you want to read some very scary things, read what Pat Robertson has to say about atheists. And science. Atheists can't be elected to public office in 6 states. Recent poll numbers said that a majority of Americans wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of his or her politics. Atheists around the country are mistreated every single day. If I came out as an atheist, I'd lose my job.

To Will, I like you because you are genuine. I appreciate your answer.

Quote from: "perspective"it is most illogical to be a nihilist. <--- Defend this claim.

Right, that's why the greatest thinker of the 19th century was a Nihilist....  

Morals are forged by man's ego. There is no right and wrong. What is right and wrong changes depending on the culture. You can do what our society will perceive as being right here but do it somewhere else and it could be an atrocity. There may be benevolent vs malicious intentions (keyword since it's about intent) but nothing more. Outside of the mind there is no right and wrong. This universe only knows correct and incorrect.

Quote from: "perspective"OK well Santa Clause is not true, but when things are not true people tend to just dismiss it and move on. If it was JUST a problem of Christianity not being true then why the proactive steps to destory it. As one famous Atheist said, " We will free the world from the rotting corps of Christianity." Strong words against something that is JUST untrue fairy tale. Or how about the head of an atheist organization who said, "I am going to give God the fight of His life." Wierd words for someone who shouldn't even believe in a God to fight with. Please don't flater yourselves that all this is about is intelect.

Again, you are pushing your views of atheists onto all of us...seriously, stop.

Not all atheists are anti-christian.  Not all atheists care if Christianity exists or not.  Most atheists don't do anything to actively try to reason Christians out of their beliefs unless the Christian brings up the topic.

Your quotes are from atheists who also happen to be anti-christianity/anti-theism.  An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in a god.  In fact, in another thread someone just pointed out that there are people who call themselves Atheist Christians (feel free to look it up on wiki)

Remember, atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.  We don't have leaders (unless we choose to associate with an organization) and we don't all share the same views...the only thing we all agree on is that we don't believe in a god.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "perspective"it is most illogical to be a nihilist. <--- Defend this claim.

Right, that's why the greatest thinker of the 19th century was a Nihilist....  

Morals are forged by man's ego. There is no right and wrong. What is right and wrong changes depending on the culture. You can do what our society will perceive as being right here but do it somewhere else and it could be an atrocity. There may be benevolent vs malicious intentions (keyword since it's about intent) but nothing more. Outside of the mind there is no right and wrong. This universe only knows correct and incorrect.

Sophus, let me explain why you are misguided. You have confused mores with morals. Mores are the particular expression of morals in a particular culture. Here is an example ---> In America women cover there breats because they are seen as sexually stimulating and private parts. In another culture the women expose their breats, because that culture sees breats as normal body parts for the function of feeding, But that same culture has the women cover their ankles. This is because the ankle in the culture is seen as provocative and sexual. The underlying PRINCIPLE is the same. Sexually stimulating parts are to be covered and modesty adhered to. Morals are underlying principles that may be expressed in many ways. Further, math is not "real" in the sense that we can touch math or numbers. But the principle is that 1 of something and then 2 of something makes 3 of something. In this case their is a principle to which man gave names and classifications to in order to express the facts. To say that man just made morals up is basically the same as saying that man just made math up. The principles of morals exist and man has named and classified things within these principles. To deny moral principles is to deny science and obsevation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get freedom to deny it. Further, just because there may not be consensus on what those principles are doesn't make them not real or man made. That is a very fallacious arguement. Many in the evolution camp do not agree on the guiding principles that drive evolution. So I guess by your argument evolution must be false and not real. Its just man made reteric forged by mans ego to explain life. You can not be a nihilist because you can't absolutley claim to be someone that claims there are no absolutes. Your world View is self defeating.

I swear a kitten drowns every time you post.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "perspective"OK well Santa Clause is not true, but when things are not true people tend to just dismiss it and move on. If it was JUST a problem of Christianity not being true then why the proactive steps to destory it. As one famous Atheist said, " We will free the world from the rotting corps of Christianity." Strong words against something that is JUST untrue fairy tale. Or how about the head of an atheist organization who said, "I am going to give God the fight of His life." Wierd words for someone who shouldn't even believe in a God to fight with. Please don't flater yourselves that all this is about is intelect.

Again, you are pushing your views of atheists onto all of us...seriously, stop.

Not all atheists are anti-christian.  Not all atheists care if Christianity exists or not.  Most atheists don't do anything to actively try to reason Christians out of their beliefs unless the Christian brings up the topic.

Your quotes are from atheists who also happen to be anti-christianity/anti-theism.  An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in a god.  In fact, in another thread someone just pointed out that there are people who call themselves Atheist Christians (feel free to look it up on wiki)

Remember, atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.  We don't have leaders (unless we choose to associate with an organization) and we don't all share the same views...the only thing we all agree on is that we don't believe in a god.

you are right, I blasted a little bit there. I was trying to push for honest answers. I do not mean to offend or lump all atheist together. please understand that I am just trying to pick your brains for answers.

QuoteMorals are underlying principles that may be expressed in many ways. Further, math is not "real" in the sense that we can touch math or numbers. But the principle is that 1 of something and then 2 of something makes 3 of something. In this case their is a principle to which man gave names and classifications to in order to express the facts.

Ok, I agree that we use language to give ideas names.

QuoteTo say that man just made morals up is basically the same as saying that man just made math up.

I would say that we 'discovered' morals in the same way we 'discovered' mathematics. The reasons morals change in societies is because of society's have changing needs. Morals are simply the behavior that the society believes is beneficial for the whole at the time.

QuoteThe principles of morals exist and man has named and classified things within these principles. To deny moral principles is to deny science and obsevation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get freedom to deny it. Further, just because there may not be consensus on what those principles are doesn't make them not real or man made.

You say that morals exist and man has named them, then you turn around and state that they are man made. Which one is it?

QuoteThat is a very fallacious arguement. Many in the evolution camp do not agree on the guiding principles that drive evolution. So I guess by your argument evolution must be false and not real. Its just man made reteric forged by mans ego to explain life.

Please explain what you mean. Are you saying that our language is limited in explaining certain ideas? If so I agree.

QuoteYou can not be a nihilist because you can't absolutley claim to be someone that claims there are no absolutes. Your world View is self defeating.

Couldn't this simply be another example of language not properly being equipped to express an idea? I think so.

Quote from: "BadPoison"

QuoteThe principles of morals exist and man has named and classified things within these principles. To deny moral principles is to deny science and obsevation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get freedom to deny it. Further, just because there may not be consensus on what those principles are doesn't make them not real or man made.

QuoteYou say that morals exist and man has named them, then you turn around and state that they are man made. Which one is it?

I said that moral principles exist and man has named and classified and expressed morals through mores. Mores are man made, while Moral priciples just exist.

Quote from: "perspective"If it was JUST a problem of Christianity not being true then why the proactive steps to destory it.

You've answered your own question here.  Obviously those who see a need to fight against Christianity, and religion in general, see it as a cause of great harm to society.
You will never see believers in Santa Claus trying to get laws passed which forbid building houses without chimneys.

 

Quote from: "perspective"Many in the evolution camp do not agree on the guiding principles that drive evolution

There is little dispute as to what drives evolution.  Natural selection is and has been since Darwin's time accepted as the mechanism driving evolution.  If you can find a scientist who accepts the theory of evolution, yet disputes that natural selection is the driving mechanism, please to be showing him or her.

 

Quote from: "perspective"You can not be a nihilist because you can't absolutley claim to be someone that claims there are no absolutes.

Who said that nihilists need recourse to absolutes of any kind?  I think you are letting your own world view (one in which absolutes of various kinds are considered elementary and necessary) cloud your thinking.

 

Quote from: "perspective"Mores are man made, while Moral priciples just exist.

Moral principles may very well have evolved, as part of human evolution, just as species have evolved.  If they do exist independently of a cultural setting (and I am not at all sure that they do) then there is no need to posit a supernatural origin for them.

It's only because you are a Christian that you see those as ONLY Christian concepts.  These concepts exist in any society that wants to survive.  If we kill, steal, and harm each other, we won't survive as a society.  I respect my parents because they respect me (can't be said about God who wants to punish me for merely not believing he exists).  I don't steal because I want to earn what I have.

I'm sure I'll all of this and more as I read the rest of the responses, but it really torques me when Christians take ownership of all of these concepts that existed in other belief systems (as a list of 10, no less) LONG before Christ was even on earth.  Just get over it already.

Quote from: "perspective"Sophus, let me explain why you are misguided.

:pop:

QuoteYou can not be a nihilist because you can't absolutley claim to be someone that claims there are no absolutes. Your world View is self defeating.

I never said I was an Epistemological Nihilist. I'm not. I'm an Ethical Nihilist.

Quote from: "perspective". . . but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

Woah.  That was a massive non sequitur.  You might as well have left off the first part of the post so you could just sweep into accusing us of wanting to quarrel with your god.  "You mostly share my morals which means that God exists and you just have a problem with his authority upholding the morals you share with me."  Did I get that about right?  It doesn't logically follow.  Are you just angry at Brahma?  I mean, you share similar morality to some Hindus, no doubt!  Heck, you share similar morality to me, so why don't we address everything with a supposition of my views, with no justification being given for you to adopt them?

Besides, how does that even work??  I'm supposed to know that God exists, but I defy him because I don't want to be judged, knowing that he'll just judge me in harsher fashion?  This is pretty much one of the most nonsensical statements ever.  Look, if your God is real, I go to hell.  I don't believe in a god because I've not seen evidence for him, reality contradicts his oft-claimed attributes, and because every last religion claims to be the One True Wayâ,,¢, or at least the Truthâ,,¢.  It's not like I have a penchant to end up in hell or hades or to be vanquished from Valhalla because I haven't been a good warrior.  If you want me to believe in your religion, substantiate it.  Having a similar morality to you doesn't count for much.  If we completely different, we wouldn't be having this conversation because one of our groups wouldn't be around to discuss it.  You want to know what all of us have in common?  We sleep.  "You're fine with drinking tea, with a few minor caveats, but you don't want to drink from the Celestial Teapot, or maybe you just don't want to be held accountable for your unwillingness to fully prepare for the Great Drinking."

I hope you see my point.
Peace, man.

Quote from: "perspective". . . but really you just have a problem with the authority of God, or maybe that there is right and wrong and you have to answer for that. Now, I can forsee that some will quickly respond with something about this bad thing or that bad thing that Christians do, but again I say that if a Christian lives by the statements I posted first then I don't think you can say anything bad about that. Really, it all falls back on authority under God and judgement for actions. I would like feedback on this.

Let's take a look at some of the morals in Islam:

Quote from: "Islam"Tolerance And Forgiveness

Be Compassionate And Merciful

The Killing Of Innocent People Is Unlawful

God Condemns Mischief

Peace And Well-Being

Now do you agree with these? If so I am going to assert that you are just denying the authority of Allah.

Quote from: "perspective"1) Do Not be jealous of someone else and be envious.

I don't agree with this.  It's good to be a little jealous and envious sometimes, it's how we get motivated.  (Not always but sometimes.)  Besides, how are you going to tell me not to feel a certain way that just occurs?  This is a set up for failure.

Quote2) Honor the people who gave you life and raised you. (parents)

I like this one.  As long as they are beating me within an inch of my life or sneaking in to my bedroom at night with bad intentions....then it's "screw 'em" for sure.

Quote3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

Whatever, that's how you get shot in Dallas.  They want to harm me I am gone.

Quote4) Be humble and do not seek anything for selfish reasons.

Love thyself also.  

Quote5) be submissive to the authorites that are over you (government, boses, etc.) except when it contridicts good morals.

Absolutely not!!  You have got to be assertive and confident to get ahead.  No respects the "Yes-Man".

Quote6) Consider others above yourself.

No one does this.  And it really depends on who the "others" are.

Quote7) take care of the homeless, poor, and destitude people of this world.

This is nice.

Quote8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)

So, if I don't want to have children?

Quote9) Do not cease in doing good.

This is nice.

Quote10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)

Several of the commandments are repetative, and as a general rule are okay but I think they could be much more profound.

QuoteI really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

The part where I have to believe in a god, pray to it, give it credit for all good that people do, pray to it, assume everyone else should believe in it, and spend time in a building weekly or more often with people in fear of living life in the here and now.

I think that's it.

I need a distraction so I'll take a crack at this :devil: )

Quote from: "perspective"8) be faithful to the one you claim to love (wife, husband) and manifest that love in bearing children (pro-creation)

The use of the words "claim" and "and" make this statement a bit repulsive.

Quote from: "perspective"9) Do not cease in doing good.

So long as we're using my definition of what is "good" then I'm all for it  

Quote from: "perspective"10) a sumation of the ten commandments (do not steal, murder, etc.)

Murder and steal, sure, the rest are either irrelevant or redundant.

Quote from: "perspective"Please list the statements that you don't agree with and why. I really want to know what parts of Christianity you can't agree with.

The list you've quoted may be used by christians and christian dogma, but agreeing/disagreeing with these statements don't have anything to do with my disagreements with religion (but I think the other respondents have already voiced this sentiment.)

Quote from: "perspective"3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

Can you tell me which Bible verse you used in this statement it sounds as if you have used two verses to make one?

  to all here's lookin at ya!

I agree with perspective

Quote from: "Will"Atheists around the country are mistreated every single day. If I came out as an atheist, I'd lose my job.

Really? That's...Astonishing. I can't seem to get my head round that at all. I'm sorry that is the reality you have to live with, Will.


This thread makes me realise (again) just how fortunate i am to have grown up in a secular society.

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "perspective"3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

Can you tell me which Bible verse you used in this statement it sounds as if you have used two verses to make one?

  to all here's lookin at ya!

My guess is that he combined these two:

Matthew 5:29

Matthew 5:44

(from memory)

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "Will"Atheists around the country are mistreated every single day. If I came out as an atheist, I'd lose my job.

Really? That's...Astonishing. I can't seem to get my head round that at all. I'm sorry that is the reality you have to live with, Will.


This thread makes me realise (again) just how fortunate i am to have grown up in a secular society.

Sad, but true. I probably would not be in good standing in my job, and I would certainly be kicked off of any boards I'm serving on. Then there's the shunning which would occur, and the backlash on my family. Sucks.

Quote from: "ddddyyyyy"I agree with perspective






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-1

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "Will"Atheists around the country are mistreated every single day. If I came out as an atheist, I'd lose my job.

Really? That's...Astonishing. I can't seem to get my head round that at all. I'm sorry that is the reality you have to live with, Will.


This thread makes me realise (again) just how fortunate i am to have grown up in a secular society.

Sad, but true. I probably would not be in good standing in my job, and I would certainly be kicked off of any boards I'm serving on. Then there's the shunning which would occur, and the backlash on my family. Sucks.

Do you think you are the only one where you live/work? What do you think is the possibility a large percentage of your work colleagues are also atheist, or at least agnostic but like you, have to stay closeted for obvious reasons?

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "perspective"3) do not resist those who seek you harm, but give them more then they demand and love them.

Can you tell me which Bible verse you used in this statement it sounds as if you have used two verses to make one?

to all here's lookin at ya!

My guess is that he combined these two:

Matthew 5:29

Matthew 5:44

(from memory)

McQ very good wish my memory worked that well.The verses are from Matthew 5:39 and 5:40.Thought the first part about harm was from the Beatitudes.Verse 39 is the turn your other cheek.Verse 40 is about if someone sues you for your shirt give to him also your coat.Both verses are similar in that they apply to christian responses to certain situations.Verse 39 is the way christians are to respond when physically threatened for their belief in Christ.We can defend ourselves when physically threatened for non spiritual reasons such as robbery,car jacking or any other physical threats.Verse 40 means if someone believes a christian owes him something then the christian should respond in love by offering more.Not sure either verse was intended for non believers.