Happy Atheist Forum

God is perfect in every way, shape and form. If he exists, then he outside of time and space. He is all powerful, all knowing and eternal, meaning he has always existed. I think every Christian can agree upon this definition. If God is perfect, does he have any limits? A perfect entity wouldn't need any of this. He doesn't need to create a universe filled with puppets. After creating the Earth and the first living man and woman, the big bad snake came and POOF! Sin!!! Why would God create a world with flaws? Obviously, this world is corrupt but he must have known this before our creation. I mean, a perfect being wouldn't create something with the potential to not be perfect, that would just contradict the whole meaning of being perfect. Therefore, God must have limits. Maybe he's not perfect, and he's too shameful to come down here a apologize for what he's done.

On the other hand, technology has grown over the past decades, tremendously. Science has progressed to the point where humans are able to clone DNA, and stem cell research is even possible now. Video games have looked more real than ever, hybrid vehicles are selling at an all time high, especially the Toyota Prius, and the internet has become a part of our daily lives. Technology and science will always progress, and who knows, maybe 200 years from now, the origin of the universe will finally be uncovered, and I hope it does. Of course, there's always going to be a group of fundies who will bash the evidence and still call it a measly theory.

Do you think God has limits? Do you think technology has a limit? Do you think technology will ever reach a point where video games will look so real, that it's impossible for you to distinguish it from a game and real life. I know we will never know the answer, because we'll all be gone, but what's your opinion about the future. I just hope it turns out like Star Trek! Human teleportation is awesome!

Toodles!  

An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-perfect deity is a logical impossibility.  As for technology, look up the term "technological singularity".  For a real sci-fi mind-bender check out Orions Arm:  http://eg.orionsarm.com/ (http://eg.orionsarm.com/)  It's a future scenario based on current hard science and a lot of imagination.

God is never called perfect, but he is omnipotent.  His omnipotence doesn't preclude Him from making perfect things, as he is omnipotent, but He is a jealous God, and he would not alter Himself nor would he make us perfect.  If He did create us to be perfect beings, we would be more powerful than Him and we could ignore both His jealousy and the rules He sets forth to make our lives better.  He could and did make some of us more loving, and with better character, but we are far weaker in compensation.  His love is great, and He is willing to love all, but we must love Him, lest we disparage our Creator and risk His wrath.  He works to our advantage, but we mustn't be proud.

Technology, on the other hand, will keep growing so long as there is intelligence to fuel it and there is no intervention.  As a transhumanist, I follow technology quite enthusiastically.  Theoretically, it is possible to run simulations of entire universes of a given size so long as your resources are greater, assuming you want to simulate to the quantum level.  Graphical simulations that are indistinguishable from reality might be expected within our lifetimes, and will not hog too many resources.  I don't know what to expect, but I expect great things.

God has character limits, not limits of power.  Technology has no predictable limit, aside from the resources it must consume, physical constraints, and the ability to further develop it.  And I hope it turns out better than Star Trek, because teleportation is not awesome, seeing as how it kills you and then recreates you somewhere else.  "Kill" might be the wrong word, but strictly speaking, your consciousness will end when your brain is ripped apart.  Anyway, I might come back to this thread later with some meandering thoughts on technology.

Gee, Pipebox really is having fun.

Quote from: "BadPoison"Gee, Pipebox really is having fun. ;) .

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "BadPoison"Gee, Pipebox really is having fun. ;) .

Bless you.

Ahhh!  I caught the GOD!


Meh.  Anything is possible.  Given enough time and money.

JoeActor

Quote from: "joeactor"Bless you.

Ahhh!  I caught the GOD!


Meh.  Anything is possible.  Given enough time and money.

JoeActor

Is that like catching the hivv?  

God- ˈgȯd  noun
-a disease accompanied by a spiritual euphoria that is greatly diminished if not cured by simply thinking for one's self.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"God is perfect in every way, shape and form. If he exists, then he outside of time and space. He is all powerful, all knowing and eternal, meaning he has always existed. I think every Christian can agree upon this definition. If God is perfect, does he have any limits? A perfect entity wouldn't need any of this. He doesn't need to create a universe filled with puppets. After creating the Earth and the first living man and woman, the big bad snake came and POOF! Sin!!! Why would God create a world with flaws? Obviously, this world is corrupt but he must have known this before our creation. I mean, a perfect being wouldn't create something with the potential to not be perfect, that would just contradict the whole meaning of being perfect. Therefore, God must have limits. Maybe he's not perfect, and he's too shameful to come down here a apologize for what he's done.

A big bad snake came, and poof. Sin? I'm afraid you need to take some basic hamartiology classes before addressing the Christian view of what sin is, how it came into existence, and gods relation to it. Sorry, it's just a pretty complicated topic.

As you probably already know, many Christians believe he made us with the potential to be "perfect" but that leaving us no choice would make us no better than robots. Or inanimate objects, for that matter.

Maybe we have the potential to be of perfect character, like Jesus, but we can never be perfect in function.  We are limited in power in many, many ways.

As to your claim about being mindless robots, this is patently untrue.  I cannot swim the length of the Atlantic underwater, and God designed me as such, so God can clearly impose limits.  God, being all powerful, could remove the sin from free will and it would have no impact on our ability to make choices.  Just because you can't rape children doesn't mean you can't decide whether to go bowling or to the pool house, and we don't say a toddler has had their free will removed when we prevent them from sticking things in electrical outlets or drinking bleach.  Besides, this raises the question of whether you can sin in heaven.  If the possibility of sin makes us more perfect (IE, the ability to sin is a good thing to possess, and you reckon, for the moment, that it must be, because God created us with this free will, and He is good), then we are more perfect on Earth than in heaven.  Earth would be clearly better by God's own design.

I don't have this problem.  I admit that God is jealous, and He is testing us to see if we would deny Him, given the chance.  Heaven is better because He removes that chance.  We lose some of our free will, but we gain life everlasting, and spend eternity in peace giving glory to God.

I like the idea that, when a civilization gets to a specific technological plateau it will stagnate for a while then sublimate to a higher form of existence, leaving the material world behind. Kind of like Dr Daniel Jackson in Stargate but less cheesy.

I'm sure we will see reality equivelent simulations in our lifetime. I'm not sure how advanced we will be able to make the interface though. For a truly 100% immersive experience, you'd have to plug the simulation directly into the brain, or at least find a way of bypassing the eyes through less invasive means.

Tech will definitely go nano. We'll also be able to change ourselves on the genetic level. Modification of our own bodies to a point where we can give ourselves extra glands containing hedonistic substances with zero comedown effects. Super regenerative tissue. Being able to see infra red and UV as norm, amongst other things.

I believe humanity will eventually lead a symbiotic relationship with AI and we will not longer live on planets but artificial habitats.

Quote from: "NearBr0ken"An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-perfect deity is a logical impossibility.  As for technology, look up the term "technological singularity".  For a real sci-fi mind-bender check out Orions Arm:  http://eg.orionsarm.com/ (http://eg.orionsarm.com/)  It's a future scenario based on current hard science and a lot of imagination.

Been reading through that site all morning. It is absolutely fantastic! Many, many thanks for providing that link.

I have a lot of reading to do this weekend, it seems.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Maybe we have the potential to be of perfect character, like Jesus, but we can never be perfect in function.  We are limited in power in many, many ways.

Yes, I suspect that is true.  That is what I was thinking when I put the quotes around perfect, kind of meaning "operating as designed".

QuoteAs to your claim about being mindless robots, this is patently untrue.  I cannot swim the length of the Atlantic underwater, and God designed me as such, so God can clearly impose limits.

Technically I didn't claim that, but it so happens I do believe that.  And yes, as said above we are talking, I think, about a perfection other than say, omnipotence.

QuoteGod, being all powerful, could remove the sin from free will and it would have no impact on our ability to make choices.  Just because you can't rape children doesn't mean you can't decide whether to go bowling or to the pool house, and we don't say a toddler has had their free will removed when we prevent them from sticking things in electrical outlets or drinking bleach.  Besides, this raises the question of whether you can sin in heaven.  If the possibility of sin makes us more perfect (IE, the ability to sin is a good thing to possess, and you reckon, for the moment, that it must be, because God created us with this free will, and He is good), then we are more perfect on Earth than in heaven.  Earth would be clearly better by God's own design.

Possibly he could have made it so that any choices we made had no negative consequences, I guess.  But choosing between going bowling and going to the pool house are choices of taste, and not obedience, right?  That is, unless he directed you to choose one above the other - then you would be exercising your right to obey or not obey.  Granting you the right to obey or not obey is significant in that you are elevated above the level of a slave/robot/inanimate object.  Or am I missing your point?

As to what will happen in heaven as regards free will, I have read some opinions on this but I haven't fully formed my own.  It is interesting to hear what other people think about it though.

Hmmm, maybe we should take further discussion to another thread, it's quite off-topic here.

I'll get to that.

Quote from: "PipeBox"God is never called perfect, but he is omnipotent.  His omnipotence doesn't preclude Him from making perfect things, as he is omnipotent, but He is a jealous God, and he would not alter Himself nor would he make us perfect.  If He did create us to be perfect beings, we would be more powerful than Him and we could ignore both His jealousy and the rules He sets forth to make our lives better.  He could and did make some of us more loving, and with better character, but we are far weaker in compensation.  His love is great, and He is willing to love all, but we must love Him, lest we disparage our Creator and risk His wrath.  He works to our advantage, but we mustn't be proud.

I once thought that God wasn't perfect either, until we talked about it in my religious studies class. I also found many websites that claims God is perfect, just like this one: http://www.omegafaith.org/godisperfect.htm (http://www.omegafaith.org/godisperfect.htm)

Here's a quote from the website:

"God is perfect in grace, in wisdom, in knowledge, in beauty, in holiness, in love, in power, in righteousness, in justice, in all that He is and all that He does. There is no thought or word or deed of God that is less than the ultimate it could be.

     It is not that God does things perfectly, it is that He Himself is perfect and, therefore, all that He says or does is perfect. God cannot issue forth from Himself anything that is imperfect, for imperfection does not dwell within Him. Not even the possibility of imperfection can be found within His being. We creatures of God, products of the Adamic fall, should take great joy and hope in the perfection of Him who created us."

Quote from: "Phillysoul11"A big bad snake came, and poof. Sin? I'm afraid you need to take some basic hamartiology classes before addressing the Christian view of what sin is, how it came into existence, and gods relation to it. Sorry, it's just a pretty complicated topic.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I do know what sin is, but was too lazy to write down the whole story. I was in class also, and didn't want to spend all that time writing a big wall of text. Nonetheless, that wasn't the point to what I was saying. I was just saying everything God has created thus far, there seems to be a flaw. The definition of a perfect being seems contradictory when God is the subject, yet people praise him for all the good in this world, and blame Satan for all the bad.