Happy Atheist Forum

... at the stupidity of people. I saw this verse on the blog of a Christian. How on earth can anyone read this verse in the Bible and still believe this garbage, let alone then parade it around in teaching?

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”..Luke 14:26.

you might as well say, "So if you love mankind but don't love Jesus, you're going to hell. Have a nice day." I have no problem with someone believing in God, but worshiping a monster like this? I hope stupidity hurts....

That's one thing that always annoyed me. Can't you just be a decent person without believing in Jesus or a god? You can still achieve great things without being a part of religion. If an afterlife actually existed I'd think that EVERY good person would get into it, not just the people that believe in Jesus.

Jesus shows his true colours in this passage...he is no better than his father (which is no suprise, since he both is and isn't his father[could we analogate this with a quantum particle? The main problem I see with the particle analogy is that the particles exist, while jesus doesn't])

My dad has said that he loves Jesus more than us (his family).

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages42.fotki.com%2Fv1376%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6623378%2Fposter93905863-vi.jpg&hash=5ee8da939ce43873ab03de91a8bd52c091bad366)

^ Amen! (oh wait...)

Quote from: "Sophus"... at the stupidity of people. I saw this verse on the blog of a Christian. How on earth can anyone read this verse in the Bible and still believe this garbage, let alone then parade it around in teaching?

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”..Luke 14:26.

you might as well say, "So if you love mankind but don't love Jesus, you're going to hell. Have a nice day." I have no problem with someone believing in God, but worshiping a monster like this? I hope stupidity hurts....

My hope is that some day that each one of you will take the time to search out the meaning of scriptures that seem to be contradictory.You are always saying that christians do not take the time to research the things you believe in...no that's not the way you put it you only trust in logic and facts. Well here's a fact I'm researching the origins of life question and reading material from both sides of the question.Now here's a little thing you have got to take as belief where did all the matter come from so that you could have the big bang.I think it's stupid to believe that no matter could produce matter.

  to all here's lookin at ya!

Quote from: "Godschild"My hope is that some day that each one of you will take the time to search out the meaning of scriptures that seem to be contradictory.

Who says we don't?

Quote from: "Godschild"You are always saying that christians do not take the time to research the things you believe in...no that's not the way you put it you only trust in logic and facts.

A lot of Christians don't take the time to research the things they believe in. And what's wrong with trusting logic and facts?

Quote from: "Godschild"Well here's a fact I'm researching the origins of life question and reading material from both sides of the question.

Good for you.

Quote from: "Godschild"Now here's a little thing you have got to take as belief where did all the matter come from so that you could have the big bang.I think it's stupid to believe that no matter could produce matter.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but keep in mind that some people think it's stupid to believe a big Guy in the sky made the world in six days. Not intending to offend, just to give perspective.

Happy posting.

You know well heres a fact Im studying grammar do you think its working.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"You know well heres a fact Im studying grammar do you think its working.

Don't quit your day job  

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "Godschild"My hope is that some day that each one of you will take the time to search out the meaning of scriptures that seem to be contradictory.

Quote from: "susangail"Who says we don't?

The way you guys post your opinions about scriptures it's easy to see you do not.

Quote from: "Godschild"You are always saying that christians do not take the time to research the things you believe in...no that's not the way you put it you only trust in logic and facts.

Quote from: "susangail"A lot of Christians don't take the time to research the things they believe in. And what's wrong with trusting logic and facts?

Your are correct in your statement and I think it's sad that some christians will not study scripture and discover many wonderful facts in the Bible.There is nothing wrong with logic and facts when they are leading to truths.I'm not one who will defend christians or supposed christians when they are making untruthful claims about scriptures or any proven scientific claims and I do not like that most atheist take and butcher scripture when they have no idea what there even reading.

Quote from: "Godschild"Now here's a little thing you have got to take as belief, where did all the matter come from so that you could have the big bang.I think it's stupid to believe that no matter could produce matter.

Quote from: "susangail"You're entitled to your own opinion, but keep in mind that some people think it's stupid to believe a big Guy in the sky made the world in six days. Not intending to offend, just to give perspective.

That's one thing that's been made very clear to me but why call me stupid for my belief when those who believe in the big bang must have a belief in where the matter came from for the big bang.

  to all here's lookin at ya!

Quote from: "Godschild"That's one thing that's been made very clear to me but why call me stupid for my belief when those who believe in the big bang must have a belief in where the matter came from for the big bang.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Godschild"That's one thing that's been made very clear to me but why call me stupid for my belief when those who believe in the big bang must have a belief in where the matter came from for the big bang.

....I second that...

Hint: use the "preview" button before you post  :brick:

Quote from: "godschild"My hope is that some day that each one of you will take the time to search out the meaning of scriptures that seem to be contradictory.

Seem contradictory? Let us for a moment just assume that they do only appear contradictorybut in actuality are brilliant, deep philosophical messages of truth.... that doesn't say much for God's ability to articulate now does it?

By the way.. have you researched any unpleasant verses in the Koran that are hindering you from submitting to Allah?

QuoteNow here's a little thing you have got to take as belief where did all the matter come from so that you could have the big bang.I think it's stupid to believe that no matter could produce matter.

The Big Bang Theory is not that matter came from nothing. It never addresses an actual beginning of matter just how the universe came about. The theory (or at least one common version of it) states that all matter was compact into a tiny space until it exploded giving birth to the universe. Some scientists believe that the universe breathes - in other words the universe expands as it is now and then once it comes into contact with an outside force contracts again. Rinse and repeat. I for one don't believe something can come from nothingness nor has nothingness ever been.

Why does there always have to be a beginning to something? Because that's what you can comprehend? Because you had a beginning? And of course this would also mean that your god couldn't have come from nothing. Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us ).

I just realized I am typing all of this for a fundamentalist. Hope I didn't just waste the previous minute my life.

Quote from: "Sophus"The Big Bang Theory is not that matter came from nothing. It never addresses an actual beginning of matter just how the universe came about. The theory (or at least one common version of it) states that all matter was compact into a tiny space until it exploded giving birth to the universe. Some scientists believe that the universe breathes - in other words the universe expands as it is now and then once it comes into contact with an outside force contracts again. Rinse and repeat. I for one don't believe something can come from nothingness nor has nothingness ever been.

Why does there always have to be a beginning to something? Because that's what you can comprehend? Because you had a beginning? And of course this would also mean that your god couldn't have come from nothing. Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us :)  If you have read the MOG vs. Evolution thread, you'll know why I ask. I beg of all that is decent in you....Please don't say "exploded"!  :hail:  :D

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Sophus"The Big Bang Theory is not that matter came from nothing. It never addresses an actual beginning of matter just how the universe came about. The theory (or at least one common version of it) states that all matter was compact into a tiny space until it exploded giving birth to the universe. Some scientists believe that the universe breathes - in other words the universe expands as it is now and then once it comes into contact with an outside force contracts again. Rinse and repeat. I for one don't believe something can come from nothingness nor has nothingness ever been.

Why does there always have to be a beginning to something? Because that's what you can comprehend? Because you had a beginning? And of course this would also mean that your god couldn't have come from nothing. Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us :)  If you have read the MOG vs. Evolution thread, you'll know why I ask. I beg of all that is decent in you....Please don't say "exploded"!  :hail:  :D

Aw shucks   :lol:

Oops. Sorry McQ, I didn't know "exploded" was a no-no. I can see how that term would be sticky when talking about the Big Bang Theory.

Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

Quote from: "Lawless"Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

Welcome to the forum, Lawless. I think you've made a fair and accurate assessment of what the basic teachings are of christianity, from the standpoint of works vs. faith/acceptance of jesus.

What some of us find weird (and I thought it was weird as a christian myself) is that countless sects and denominations interpret and practice it differently, and too many do not have a live and let live (or even a live and let die, if you will) attitude. We see them here frequently. To be fair, we have some pretty good members who are deists, theists, and believers, who set the example of belief without in your face preaching or fire and brimstone posts.

Again, welcome.

Quote from: "Lawless"Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

Good to have you Lawless.

I have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

QuoteI have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

Thank you both for the welcome.  

My initial thought on that verse was that it was hyperbole, and meant something like "I must absolutely be your number one priority, don't make this commitment lightly, and be prepared to make the sacrifices that will be asked of you".

Then I went and reread this and noted the placement; notably this follows the "making excuses for the banquet" parable.  Given that and other context (In the NIV version this if prefaced with "Large crowds were following Jesus...") I guess I feel pretty comfortable with my first impression.  

I'd be surprised and shocked to think any Christian could take this as a literal directive to hate anybody, especially in the context of (for instance) a commandment to "love one another".

The thing is I don't think you would be so generous with giving god the benefit of the doubt had this been a quote from the Koran or any other holy text. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer you interpret it this way. But nowhere does it say "love them less than me" (which by itself is very narcissistic). The fact that it contradicts just shows the philosophical flaws in the Bible.

Quote from: "Sophus"The fact that it contradicts just shows the philosophical flaws in the Bible.

True Sophus, but a fundamentalist can never ever ever change their mind.  The fault lies in their interpretation of reality.  I.e. if what they believe isn't what the Bible says, they're wrong by default.

While I can understand your skepticism, I doubt I can offer an acceptable answer on defending text from other religious works - honestly I'm only offering my opinion on this one, and it is by no means the definitive answer.  There are quite a few things in the Bible that I don't feel that I understand well.  If this question were really troubling me, I would be probably be asking a linguist or scholar for some information on the use of the word "hate" here - is it stylistic as I imagine it to be or is there some other explanation?

To me, it doesn't make any sense to think Jesus (or perhaps from your point of view, someone making up another story about Jesus) would abrubtly inject the requirement that someone literally "hate" his family, or himself.  It just seems like a literary device used to communicate emphasis.

But requiring that a disciple put family members and self below God seems reasonable, practical, and consistent given the circumstances.  Even if I were to share your "narcissistic" view though, remember that in my worldview this would be uniquely reasonable where God is concerned.  

QuoteTrue Sophus, but a fundamentalist can never ever ever change their mind.  The fault lies in their interpretation of reality.  I.e. if what they believe isn't what the Bible says, they're wrong by default.

Hmmm.  Well at least my friends will be amused to learn that I am a fundamentalist, and that I can never ever change my mind.  They have always suspected that I was just putting on an act anyway.

I guess I'd better pack it in for the night.  

Quote from: "Lawless"Hmmm.  Well at least my friends will be amused to learn that I am a fundamentalist, and that I can never ever change my mind.  They have always suspected that I was just putting on an act anyway.

I guess I'd better pack it in for the night.  :unsure:

Quote from: "Lawless"

QuoteI have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

I'd be surprised and shocked to think any Christian could take this as a literal directive to hate anybody, especially in the context of (for instance) a commandment to "love one another".

But they do. All the time. Everywhere!

Does that not anger you? Doesn't it make you want to scream? How dare other people soil something you so fervently believe in! How dare they take your greatest and most sacred belief system and pervert it toward their own hideous ideology! This is a monstrous abuse of your principles which you need to do something about. You need to yell from the rooftops and rally others who believe as you do, who worship the god of peace, to help change the views of the radicals and fundamentalists who'd take every opportunity to make a mockery of the bible by over-interpreting its verses to use as a tool for oppressive dictatorship. Who are these people? Why would they take something so beautiful and smash its very foundation so that any tenuous link it may once have had with morality is now turned on its head? The spirit which fills you with love throughout every moment of your life is being raped by savages and all you can feel is shock and surprise? You should feel anger and rage. White hot rage.

How dare you let people take this away from you. How dare you let them spoil something so innately beautiful by standing on the sidelines feeling 'shocked' whilst lunatics deconstruct your religion and replace it with terror and despair. This is your domain and other people are rampaging through it with a grotesque disdain for the very things it stands for. Their perverse glee at twisting the basis for your entire life is something you should meet head-on with an steel fist! After all, you know you are right, don't you? You follow the correct path, do you not? But, isn't that what a fundamentalist would tell you should you question their motives? Didn't they just interpret the bible the correct way because that was what god wanted? Besides, you aren't allowed to question god's will, are you?

As much as it angers me to see moderate christians perform the verbal equivalent of shrugging and whistling nonchalantly when a fundie starts spouting venomous bile and hatred, I can see why they don't want to do anything about it. It is because religion has a 'pertinent question firewall'. Anything which proposes views counter to its policies simply cannot exist. New ideas and arguments against fundamentalist viewpoints are crushed instantly because at its core, religion is unquestionable.

I know, if there was something I'd based my entire life upon, I'd be royally pissed off to see some of the things people are doing in the name of it. I'd be at the forefront of policy change. I would never back down. I would stand up for what I believe in!

So, you can let your religion become further warped and polluted by radical nonsense or you can grow a pair and become enraged. Let change happen from within. Be proactive. As Zach De La Rocha once said: Anger is a Gift.

QuoteI no longer argue on Biblical grounds because I don't presume my understanding of the Bible, my interpretation, to be the definitive one

I feel the same way.  If I do comment I usually take pains to stress that I'm not claiming to have had a divine revelation - just expressing my personal opinion.  

To be honest, I'm not sure what the current definition of fundamentalist is as it pertains to Christianity; I'll look it up to see if I should start wearing the special hat  

Woah, powerful post, Karadan.  But, in half jest, I give you the Christian answer to the first paragraph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaqcGat1WUI#t=0m31s

I think you'll find the imagery suited to the lyrics suited to the post.  Anyway, the reason everyone maintains a sort of timidity is because it's considered polite and normal by society, and that trumps their dogma in most cases.  Most Christians are opposed to gay marriage, for example, as far as I know.  But if it were already legal, how many of them would advocate the removal of the right for gays to marry?  It's nauseating that people can't beat this machine that works in their heads, but it obviously serves a social function.

Anyone who really "understands" the religious makes a career out of teaching more of the faith to those who already accept the tenets of it, never going out and saving the lost.  There's no money in it.  There's no security in it.  Society would regard them as loons.  Churches only gain significant new numbers from people who already believe the same basics, and from the children.  The hardest conversion your average church-goer will initiate is the indoctrination of their children.  Sorry to be blunt, but, well, there it is.

QuoteBut they do. All the time. Everywhere!

They do?  Routinely use this verse as an excuse to hate people?  

To your more general point, though - yes, often I do feel anger when I see people attempting to use someone's belief system to manipulate that person.

Generally the sequence of events will go something like this:

1. Shock and surprise.

2. Double take.  Did this person actually mean that?

3. Confirmation.

4. Unleashing of anger. Confrontation.

Allow me to work through these stages if you please.  Currently I am stage 2 on this issue.

If I skip directly to stage 4 won't I be just like one of those radicals you dislike so much?

Quote from: "Lawless"I feel the same way.  If I do comment I usually take pains to stress that I'm not claiming to have had a divine revelation - just expressing my personal opinion.  

To be honest, I'm not sure what the current definition of fundamentalist is as it pertains to Christianity; I'll look it up to see if I should start wearing the special hat  

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's quite different to see a Christian that doesn't claim to have divine revelation in their reading of the Bible.  The religion holds a lot less weight for most people if their interpretation is being guided by their gut and not God.

My definition of fundie would be a person who:
[li]Believes every word of the Bible to be literal.  Ergo, unicorns and talking donkeys and snakes.
[li]Accepts some form of bigotry as a necessary part of being responsible in their faith, even if they don't regard it as bigotry (voting against gay marriage out of religious duty).
[li]Refuses to examine their views from an external POV, as that would be heresy.
[li]Discards direct observations of out of hand if they conflict with their religious views (distance to stars, and by extension the travel time of light, or documented speciation)
[li]Looks forward to the destruction of man kind, and long for the final judgement, rather than fretting it because they still haven't done as much good in the world as they can.

If you meet all of those, you're a fundie in my book.  But that's just my opinion.

Quote from: "Lawless"If I do comment I usually take pains to stress that I'm not claiming to have had a divine revelation - just expressing my personal opinion.  

IMHO, you are like the vast majority of religious people who define their religious beliefs by using their own internal capability for reason and rational thought.  They inherently determine what their "god" means based upon their own internal morality.  Once you realize that the fictional construct of inserting a "god" into the process is un-necessary, then you will become one of us.

Its a short step from:

Inner morality determines God(s)' morality determines morality

To realizing that God(s)' morality is entirely irrelevant to the issue and you end up with:

Inner morality defines morality.

The realization that we as reasonable, critical thinking and rationial creatures determine what is right and wrong and not some undefinable, arbitrary God concept is what pushed me away from the silliness of God(s) and religion(s).

QuoteDon't take this the wrong way, but it's quite different to see a Christian that doesn't claim to have divine revelation in their reading of the Bible.  The religion holds a lot less weight for most people if their interpretation is being guided by their gut.

To the extent that I hope for divine influence in my everyday actions including the discovery process, I suppose I do look for divine revelation.  But my thinking is that I am expected to use what cognitive ability I do have, and at any rate my belief in God sits higher in the hierarchy of my belief system than the Bible does.

As to your definition I see two items I might potentially qualify on.  

It is possible that I would vote for something others might describe as bigotry, if I thought that doing so was my religious duty.  It hasn't happened so far (I think), and I wouldn't do it lightly.  It would have to be something I found so abhorrent from a moral perspective that I could not in good conscience do otherwise.

If, for the sake of argument, somehow there were a direct observation that proved that there was no God, I would "know" that the observation was wrong, in the sense that I can know anything.  Since this isn't likely to happen, I mention it simply for honesty's sake.

Well, no worries about the last bit.  The observations I mentioned, as well as any others we might make, can only disprove literal interpretations of the Bible, not that God, as the character intended to be described by the Bible, doesn't exist.

As to your comments on bigotry, would you mind giving an example?  I can't think of anything that would fit your statement, even in my Christian mindset.

Quote from: "karadan"But they do. All the time. Everywhere!

Does that not anger you? Doesn't it make you want to scream? How dare other people soil something you so fervently believe in! How dare they take your greatest and most sacred belief system and pervert it toward their own hideous ideology! This is a monstrous abuse of your principles which you need to do something about. You need to yell from the rooftops and rally others who believe as you do, who worship the god of peace, to help change the views of the radicals and fundamentalists who'd take every opportunity to make a mockery of the bible by over-interpreting its verses to use as a tool for oppressive dictatorship. Who are these people? Why would they take something so beautiful and smash its very foundation so that any tenuous link it may once have had with morality is now turned on its head? The spirit which fills you with love throughout every moment of your life is being raped by savages and all you can feel is shock and surprise? You should feel anger and rage. White hot rage.

How dare you let people take this away from you. How dare you let them spoil something so innately beautiful by standing on the sidelines feeling 'shocked' whilst lunatics deconstruct your religion and replace it with terror and despair. This is your domain and other people are rampaging through it with a grotesque disdain for the very things it stands for. Their perverse glee at twisting the basis for your entire life is something you should meet head-on with an steel fist! After all, you know you are right, don't you? You follow the correct path, do you not? But, isn't that what a fundamentalist would tell you should you question their motives? Didn't they just interpret the bible the correct way because that was what god wanted? Besides, you aren't allowed to question god's will, are you?

As much as it angers me to see moderate christians perform the verbal equivalent of shrugging and whistling nonchalantly when a fundie starts spouting venomous bile and hatred, I can see why they don't want to do anything about it. It is because religion has a 'pertinent question firewall'. Anything which proposes views counter to its policies simply cannot exist. New ideas and arguments against fundamentalist viewpoints are crushed instantly because at its core, religion is unquestionable.

I know, if there was something I'd based my entire life upon, I'd be royally pissed off to see some of the things people are doing in the name of it. I'd be at the forefront of policy change. I would never back down. I would stand up for what I believe in!

So, you can let your religion become further warped and polluted by radical nonsense or you can grow a pair and become enraged. Let change happen from within. Be proactive. As Zach De La Rocha once said: Anger is a Gift.

Wow, Karadan, are you being tongue in cheek, I hope?

Quote from: "McQ"Wow, Karadan, are you being tongue in cheek, I hope?

Half and half

Needed an excuse to rant (was a bad day yesterday) but i did feel a few things needed to be said. It really gets me down when i see the proliferation and protection of fundamentalism simply because other religious people seem unwilling to do anything about it. I'm not talking just christianity here either. If it is through fear of reprisal then shouldn't that tell moderate religious people something about the specifics of the religion they base their entire life upon?

Quote from: "Lawless"

QuoteBut they do. All the time. Everywhere!

They do? Routinely use this verse as an excuse to hate people?

It isn't just that quote. Many, many passages from the bible and other religious texts are taken out of context or deliberately misinterpreted (or even interpreted verbatim) in order to abuse, stifle, disfigure and control the basic tenets of what it is to be a human living harmoniously on this planet.

Quote from: "Lawless"To your more general point, though - yes, often I do feel anger when I see people attempting to use someone's belief system to manipulate that person.

Generally the sequence of events will go something like this:

1. Shock and surprise.

2. Double take. Did this person actually mean that?

3. Confirmation.

4. Unleashing of anger. Confrontation.

Allow me to work through these stages if you please. Currently I am stage 2 on this issue.

If I skip directly to stage 4 won't I be just like one of those radicals you dislike so much?

Well, that's good then. There needs to be more anger aimed at fundamentalists from within their own religion. It is the first step.
Questioning the belief of others within your own religion doesn't constitute being radical. That's the point of questioning it. Not questioning something because the belief is infallible is radical. It is good you show the desire to confront others about their belief. Luckily, the statistics show the proportion of fundamentalists compared to moderate tea drinking christians in the US is small. Unfortunately the volume of their prospective voices is disproportionate. There seems to be some apathy from within mainstream christianity when it comes to confronting many of the radical churches in the US. If the status quo is to be maintained, there should be more dialogue between the different religious sects.

You only have to watch jesus camp to see christian fundamentalism at its most horrifying.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "McQ"Wow, Karadan, are you being tongue in cheek, I hope?

Half and half

Needed an excuse to rant (was a bad day yesterday) but i did feel a few things needed to be said. It really gets me down when i see the proliferation and protection of fundamentalism simply because other religious people seem unwilling to do anything about it. I'm not talking just christianity here either. If it is through fear of reprisal then shouldn't that tell moderate religious people something about the specifics of the religion they base their entire life upon?

...............................

You only have to watch jesus camp to see christian fundamentalism at its most horrifying.

That is so true.

Hey, I realize if a Christian is going to visit a board called HappyAtheistForum, he'd better be prepared to receive some personal shots right off the bat, so I'm not coming in with a chip on my shoulder - I'm essentially just a guest here.

Quote from: "Lawless"Hey, I realize if a Christian is going to visit a board called HappyAtheistForum, he'd better be prepared to receive some personal shots right off the bat, so I'm not coming in with a chip on my shoulder - I'm essentially just a guest here.

My apologies if my rant was a little over the top. I'm usually a lot more cordial. It was a rather bad day for me yesterday.

Don't feel any or all of your input here isn't valued, because it is. This is a great place to talk freely and the board moderation is very fair.

Quote from: "karadan"My apologies if my rant was a little over the top. I'm usually a lot more cordial. It was a rather bad day for me yesterday.

Don't feel any or all of your input here isn't valued, because it is. This is a great place to talk freely and the board moderation is very fair.

Don't let him fool you. karadan's a total prick.  roflol

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "karadan"My apologies if my rant was a little over the top. I'm usually a lot more cordial. It was a rather bad day for me yesterday.

Don't feel any or all of your input here isn't valued, because it is. This is a great place to talk freely and the board moderation is very fair.

Don't let him fool you. karadan's a total prick.  roflol

I've been told i resemble a walking phallus on more than one occasion

Must be my spherical legs....

No, no worries.  And please feel free to ignore the following long ramble. I'm not sure if this is considered hijacking the OP thread; if it is I apologize.

That post was one of those broadsides that, even if it doesn't all apply to you personally, is useful anyway for some introspection.

Note that I don't claim none of it applies to me, because some of it probably does.  But I do make efforts to engage extremism often enough that I don't consider myself to be a "tea drinker". At least not at this precise moment.  And besides my avatar actually says Padawan Learner I believe.

And BTW, if  someone stealthily changes it to Tea Drinker, I'll just live with it.

I don't want to be pollyanna, but I have also been encouraged by some of the things I've seen in the last couple of years.

For instance, speaking of Bill Maher, remember when he made that speech about how maybe Christians should call themselves "Christ-alikes", and actually be more Christian?  I was amazed to see a video of that in a church I attended soon after, presented in a positive way, as something we should take to heart and measure ourselves against.  It was even better looking around and seeing quite a few people nod their heads and such.  I thought it was an unusual and cool thing to do.

Unfortunately this is less likely to happen when those occasionally valid points are obscured by comments seemingly designed to bring out the worst in people, as I think is sometimes the case with Maher.  I know one can argue that people should be mature enough to separate the argument from the acid, but we are talking about human beings, after all.  But that's a different topic.

In a recent election where I live, a popular candidate who tried to play the religion card in a close race may have lost the election for that very reason.  And it seemed to me through conversations with others and local news that it was moderates, or at least moderate thinking, that mostly made this happen.  At any rate, there was a pretty severe backlash.  I almost felt guilty about how gratifying it was.  I was already voting against her so it didn't change my vote.  But it did motivate me to donate to her opponent's campaign.

And as you point out, there is also a time to be extreme. A Christian is supposed to beware of becoming bland.  Sometimes it is tough balancing these things out.

Quote from: "Lawless"And besides my avatar actually says Padawan Learner I believe.

Don't worry; after enough posts the system will consider you an atheist, too.  

Quote from: "Sophus"... at the stupidity of people. I saw this verse on the blog of a Christian. How on earth can anyone read this verse in the Bible and still believe this garbage, let alone then parade it around in teaching?

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”..Luke 14:26.

you might as well say, "So if you love mankind but don't love Jesus, you're going to hell. Have a nice day." I have no problem with someone believing in God, but worshiping a monster like this? I hope stupidity hurts....

in Luke 14:26, JESUS used the word "SIN'AH" in HEBREW that means "to love lesser than.."

Jesus was not ordering his Disciples to "hate" their family, but he was simply telling them to "put God before all others.."

this is another misread bible verse from an atheist.

please, please, please!!! undertand ancient Hebrew before you spout off atheistic nonsense..
it really makes you look bad!! I would use the word "foolish," but i'm not allowed by law.

typical?

Quote from: "Psalm23"in Luke 14:26, JESUS used the word "SIN'AH" in HEBREW that means "to love lesser than.."

Interesting.  What is your source for this?  It is generally agreed that the language used by the historical Jesus was most likely Aramaic, not Hebrew.  Then we have the fact that the book of Luke is written in Greek in the original, not Hebrew.  So how do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus used the word 'SIN'AH' in this passage?

I think that many fundamentalist Christians actually consider the King James Version the definitive (perhaps even divinely inspired) version of the bible.  Are you calling them all atheistic fools?

In fact, in the original, the Greek word (μισεῖ) is clearly and unequivocally translated as "hate."

Now you can add me to your list of fools.  

If it weren't 'against the law,' I might consider pointing out that your post was ingenuous at best, and a less charitable take on it would get into questioning the motivations for such a blatant misrepresentation of fact.

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Psalm23"in Luke 14:26, JESUS used the word "SIN'AH" in HEBREW that means "to love lesser than.."

Interesting.  What is your source for this?  It is generally agreed that the language used by the historical Jesus was Aramaic, not Hebrew.  Then we have the fact that the book of Luke is written in Greek in the original, not Hebrew.  So how do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus used the word 'SIN'AH' in this passage?

I think that many fundamentalist Christians actually consider the King James Version the definitive (perhaps even divinely inspired) version of the bible.  Are you calling them all fools?

In fact, in the original, the Greek word (μισεῖ) is clearly and unequivocally translated as "hate."

Now you can add me to your list of fools.  

If it weren't 'against the law,' I might consider pointing out that your post was ingenuous at best, and a less charitable take on it would get into questioning the motivations for such a blatant misrepresentation of fact.

Listen, I dont have much time today.. but I will leave you with one note.. ok?

Jesus obeyed the law, and the law is "HONOR THY MOTHER AND FATHER!" not hate them!

I'll get back to you on the word "hate, miseo, sin'ah" later on..

Psalm, this is the whole crux that is being made. The Bible contradicts itself.... sometimes those contradictions are appalling and some folks claim somehow manage to "believe" both  

Quote from: "Sophus"Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us ).

I don't believe either.  I believe that energy has been around forever.