Happy Atheist Forum

Grrr.....!!!! Second fucking misdiagnosis. Bleh!

*takes a deep breath*

I'm okay. I got a new doctor (fifth one) and a new therapist (third one), on a new med (fourth regiment), and have an "official" diagnosis (third one): Generalized Anxiety Disorder. My therapist and I sat at Denny's sipping coffee for two hours while skimming through the diagnostic bible (a big ass book of all the mental disorders). We both diagnosed me and I'm confident this is the right one (gee, where have I heard that before...)

So yeah. I've joined a youth group for mental teens called OutSpoken Young Minds (http://kernosym.blogspot.com/) (OSYM, pronounced "awesome"). It's amazing. I've even done some public speaking in my home town for mental health awareness.


Just had to vent for a bit. Good to be back here at HAF. Miss me? (jk...)

Hey, welcome back.  I'm glad you have your disorder sorted out now and found a good group for support.

Welcome back and Hello!

You're the girl who wrote 'Dad, I'm an atheist' and 'Dad, I really am an atheist. I promise', yeah? Read your stories and my heart just went out to you. I'm happy to hear that you've found a support group and finally got the disorder pinned. Here's hoping things keep getting better as time goes on

Well it's about time! We missed ya. :D

Welcome back Susan... loved reading your update blog article.  Glad to know you feel confident this is the right course.  I struggle with bi-polar as well, but mine is pretty mild... though I do have my moments.

Glad to have you backQ!  

Thanks everyone :)[/quote]

Yup that's me. And thank you

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"I occasionally thumb through the DSM-IV just for fun, looking at all the different conditions you could apply to anybody with enough imagination.

I know right?

Love the acronm OSYM. And the group sounds truly helpful. All my best!

Quote from: "SallyMutant"Love the acronm OSYM. And the group sounds truly helpful. All my best! :)

Woah, how'd I miss this?
Glad to hear you've got a concrete (as concrete as they ever are) diagnosis!  And I'm happy to meet the person who wrote an article well-known throughout the atheist net.   :lol:

What makes you think you have a mental disorder to start with?

I think the only mental disorder is.... stupidity.


Because anyone with anything else would see that's it's a disadvantage to behave in a "crazy" manner and thus, adjust their behavior.

Someone who doesn't learn from mistakes or inconveniences is nothing short of stupid.
After a while of sticking a fork in an outlet you should learn not to do it.

There's no actual specific conditin known as "stupidity", prorealism. Just abnormalities in brain function. Usually we call those "stupidity", but they vary widely in chemical analysis and some of them can be changed with medication.

I figure you can force someone to take medication, and then once their stabilized/felt the medications effect, they can determine whether they want to stay on it or not. Someone needs both sides of the experience before they can choose one.  

That might be true for some people.

I have been on medication before when I was a teenager because my father disliked my introverted  behavior and of any of the medications I've been on they really did nothing more than dull my senses and ability to react. I don't think it's everyone's job to please everyone else, but I do think people have a certain amount of responsibility for themselves and if you can take note that "behavior x leads to negative consequences" Then it should be consciously applied and if you are still trying to avoid negative consequences then, I don't think you have a mental disorder.

Other people MAY just be assuming she's "bipolar" or "General Anxiety Disorder" because they do not see things from her point of view and are trying to control her, the way my father tried to control me by making me and other people think I had a mental disorder simply because I enjoyed staying home and reading books instead of going out on dates and doing other social activities because I disliked most of the people I knew.


Just because a person has a variety of emotions that can range from extreme anger or sadness to extreme happiness doesn't mean they aren't triggered by something logical to that person. If someone I hate wears a baseball cap and condescendingly calls me "sweet cheeks" then I might come to associate those things with negative feelings even if he's not around. Other people might not understand that and think I'm being "bipolar" when I get ticked off and say "don't call me sweet cheeks" and even if I explain to them "it reminds me of that guy who always harasses me" They still wont listen to my request and think I'm being "bipolar" since they don't have the same feelings about the name.

I think calling things a "disorder" is not very appropriate sometimes.
If she is around people who harass her often I don't think it's unwarranted to have anxiety about it.
A "disorder" implies that the feelings are not appropriate (which is subjective)
or disorganized having no "lock and key system" of "factor y causes anxiety".
I think it's highly likely that there are specific triggers that cause her anxiety even if she does not notice what they are on a conscious level. Otherwise her emotions truly are being "random" which needs to be taken under her personal control for the sake of being functional towards anything so I would state that as a lack of self discipline or also very possibly an unstable environment to react to.

So prorealism it's your opinion that people with mental illnesses/disorders are just not appropriately adjusting their behavior to avoid negative outcomes?

Quote from: "VanReal"So prorealism it's your opinion that people with mental illnesses/disorders are just not appropriately adjusting their behavior to avoid negative outcomes?

In general yes or to gain more positive outcomes, which ever way you want to look at it.

I used to work with mentally handicapped children, some with down syndrome, some with cerebral palsy and even they could adjust their behavior (within their capabilities) to be civil and well behaved through something as simple as calmly working with them and trying to explain things in a manner they would understand. What it took was consistency of "action x leads to result y" and even if it took some time eventually they could learn, even with disabilities like that.

So I believe a person without more "obvious" problems should be able to adjust their behavior also. Even animals can adjust their behavior so that it suits their own favor so I think it's not only possible but likely that other people can do the same.

Of course there are always exceptions but from my experience I believe people have the power to change their actions if they think they need to.

This should be interesting...

 

Quote from: "ProRealism"

Quote from: "VanReal"So prorealism it's your opinion that people with mental illnesses/disorders are just not appropriately adjusting their behavior to avoid negative outcomes?

In general yes or to gain more positive outcomes, which ever way you want to look at it.

I used to work with mentally handicapped children, some with down syndrome, some with cerebral palsy and even they could adjust their behavior (within their capabilities) to be civil and well behaved through something as simple as calmly working with them and trying to explain things in a manner they would understand. What it took was consistency of "action x leads to result y" and even if it took some time eventually they could learn, even with disabilities like that.

So I believe a person without more "obvious" problems should be able to adjust their behavior also. Even animals can adjust their behavior so that it suits their own favor so I think it's not only possible but likely that other people can do the same.

Of course there are always exceptions but from my experience I believe people have the power to change their actions if they think they need to.

This is not the same as learning to live with, working through, adjusting to, or even acknowledging a mental illness.

Pavlov's theory would not work with the mentally ill, you are speaking of something totally different than a mood disorder, which is what bipolar is. There is a massive difference between brain damage, lowered brain function, and mental disabilities due to medical issues, birth defects, injuries, additional chromosones,etc., and mood disorders or other mental illnesses.

Someone that is manic/depressive, suffering from depression, OCD, ADHD, schizophrenic, psychopathic, etc., is not necessarily having an issue with their behavior.  They can be fully functioning without any behavior problems or difficulty functioning in society.  There is not a way to just acknowledge to oneself "I am depressed, snap out of it", for example.  There is a chemical cause and issue, a deprivation of hormones, a surge of hormones, a non-connective neuro-pathway, etc., that causes mental illness and affects the person to their very core.  If it were as simple as just training oneself to not feel depressed then talk therapy would work for everyone, and walking around with a stiff upper-lip would resolve all issues.

Also, there is not a "cause" or event that creates anxiety, depression, mania, etc.  A person may have an axiety attack while happily laying in bed, or become debilitatingly depressed out of the blue with no warning and nothing but happiness going on in their lives.

Because the medications you were put on did not work for you means nothing.  For example, most schizophrenics stop their medication at least once because when they are feeling "good" and are functioning well they begin to think that the medication creates a fog, difficulty in thinking, lack of creativity, etc.  Them thinking that does not mean they aren't schizophrenic, and does not mean that if they think about it hard enough they are going to just stop hallucinating.  Ever seen A Beautiful Mind?

Making a statement that persons suffering from mental disorders, illnesses or disease are simply choosing not to move from point A to point B is ludicrous.  As anyone suffering from an inability to control ones thoughts and/or emotions will tell you, wishing it or willing it away, acknowledging its presence, or trying to physically adjust to it does not make it go away.

If crazy could just go away by repetition and adjusting outwardly behavior my pocketbook would sure be thankful, too bad it doesn't work like that.  

I don't think it's always that they're just choosing not to move from point A to point B it's that they don't realize they can sometimes or know how. Since my teenage years I did go into a major suicidal depressive state that took a few years to over come I had to make the conscious choice that I was going to continue to live but it wasn't until I got to the point where people stopped babying me as the victim of violence and told me to suck it up and deal with it (as cruel as that may seem)  that I realized that I had to and even then it wasn't an instant snap like "oh I should stop feeling sorry for myself".
Even if problems are due to "chemical imbalances" I believe the human body IS capable of self healing over time. Let's give evolution a little more credit here shall we if not to human will power of the individual.
If you have a self image problem and tons of anxiety because you think you're unattractive for example, like bulimia, just giving medication to calm you down doesn't resolve the underlying issue and only treats the symptoms. There has to be a change in not only the person's mood but their cognitive organization. It would entail that if the thoughts were reorganized then the mood would follow.

And yes I have seen that movie and know  2 people personally who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia. Their cases are not as severe as the one in the movie apparently but from what I do know the schizophrenia seems to be a reaction to extreme stress conditions and fear caused by either a real or exaggerated perception of danger which as far as I can tell was conditioned into them by abuse situations. So I do see that as a sub conscious coping mechanism. I do think that with therapy a person could overcome such things without medication though the people that I know feel some kind of.... Well I don't know how to phrase it but I think that at times they would rather not get over it because of a "personal connection" to it. Either way, they seem to be able to have normal social interaction and daily lives despite their hallucinations. One does take medication at times but the other refuses completely.
 
If it's their personal choice to take the medication then that's fine, that is their decision to make. I have seen people besides myself however who have been pressured into taking medication by someone else's will, plenty of children diagnosed with ADD or ADHD when it's more or less the parents and teachers having no patience.

But I question whether she actually has any problems of her own at all and maybe it's the people around here who have the problem instead.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grimeforum.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F2009%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=2bd6caa8055ded3e0ae8e8e2fe6e358866b289e3)

Quote from: "ProRealism"Even if problems are due to "chemical imbalances" I believe the human body IS capable of self healing over time. Let's give evolution a little more credit here shall we if not to human will power of the individual.

If I cut my finger, it probably will heal without much more than me keeping it clean.  If my finger is cut off, it isn't going to grow back without lots of grafting/splicing/binding/bracing.  While I think that the emphasis on a chemical cure for every bad day is not the best way for society function I don't think that all people who are taking chemicals to try to normalize their brain fall into the category of "putting a band-aid on a bad day."

Quote from: "ProRealism"If you have a self image problem and tons of anxiety because you think you're unattractive for example, like bulimia, just giving medication to calm you down doesn't resolve the underlying issue and only treats the symptoms. There has to be a change in not only the person's mood but their cognitive organization. It would entail that if the thoughts were reorganized then the mood would follow.

I know a guy that was in my platoon when we were attached to an armored cavalry troop that was going to invade Iraq in 2003 that was the stereotypical male soldier.  He was in shape, athletic, gregarious, had no self esteem issues and fit the idea of "soldier" perfectly.  I on the other hand was quiet, introverted, antisocial, not outgoing which is pretty much the opposite of what the idea of "soldier" is.  We do our year in the sand and come back.  I'm relatively fine, no nightmares, no fidgeting, no grievous bodily injuries.  He came back completely changed. I remember sitting with him for hours because he couldn't get the screams of Iraqi children out of his head and this happened about three months after we redeployed to our garrison in Germany.  If anything he might be a good candidate for what you believe is the solution to mental problems, however, if the cause of his total change in personality was so severe that it overcame his body's natural ability to recover from the experience I don't think that he can just snap himself out of it.

Think about it the same way has the flu.  Some people the flu and don't even no it, their body's immune system does what it is supposed to do.  Some people get the flu, get sick, and then recover as their body's immune system does its thing.  Some people get the flu and die. This is not because the specific flu virus was a "super-bug" but because the individual's system just couldn't handle the flu virus, sometimes its due to a compromised immune system ( from some other illness or contamination) or maybe just a weaker version of a healthy immune system.

Quote from: "ProRealism"If it's their personal choice to take the medication then that's fine, that is their decision to make. I have seen people besides myself however who have been pressured into taking medication by someone else's will, plenty of children diagnosed with ADD or ADHD when it's more or less the parents and teachers having no patience.

But I question whether she actually has any problems of her own at all and maybe it's the people around here who have the problem instead.

I agree.

I was diagnosed, so to speak, with ADHD when I was fairly little, and given medication which I have been on since then. I had been on the medication so long, in fact, that until recently I had no idea how I would act without it.

Anyway, It seems to me that mental abnormalities are like genetic mutations. There's nothing inherently bad about them, though some might play a role in the way that person reacts to society.

Take me, for example: When I don't take my medicine, I become more wild and quick with my tongue. I kind of like it. Unfortunately, It's hard to sit still. I don't think I'm actually "diseased", but I'll probably take the medicine a little while longer, till it becomes more convienent to wean myself off of it.

Hmm... Some abnormalities do require medication to change. The choice would probably be better suited if the patient had experience being on and off it.

*shrug*

ProRealism you still seem to be talking about mental issues resulting from an outside force such as low self-esteem in your anxiety example or depression due to an act of violence in your personal example.  Also I have never heard of schizophrenia being attributed to abuse or a life event, it is a major disconnect in the brain, one in which can not be corrected even with medication.  A contributing event such as that would allow for correction with therapy and/or appropriate treatment.  No credible physician would even recommend treatment outside of medication to a schizophrenic.  If it were event driven there would be other options.

Many people have been diagnosed and found great help with the aid of medication that have problems without an outside force acting upon them.  I have plenty of crazy, some I medicate for and some I don't and every day is a struggle and unless they come up with a way to make my brain create and distribute hormones proplery it will never go away.

I have a great life, and it bothers me to hear people assume that I have issues coping with stress, peer pressure, self-esteem, etc., because that is not true.

Many cases of depression do spawn from life events, but to assume they all do and that they can be solved with will, diversion or talk therapy doesn't make sense.  If the illness is caused by an external issue or event medication is not going to fix it because the underlying issue or cause is always there.  Likewise if it is caused internally from the brain itself just talking about it and working through it will not make it go away, no matter how much time we let pass.

About the evolution comment   I am trying to figure out what we are suppose to be waiting for?  My brain misfires and does not understand dopamine and other hormonal signals among other issues and that can't be willed away or waited out.  I need medication to allow it to interpret at least some of these signals, the rest I have to work at one day at a time, what is evolution supposed to do about that?  

I see a neurologist that specializes in mood disorders, not a pill pusher or quack.  If talking to someone, retraining myself, or any other non-medical approach worked for these we would all see psychologists, since they can't help we are treated by MDs.  

Whether or not the OP has a treatable mood disorder or not is certainly something that only trained professionals, preferably a medical doctor can diagnose.  But certainly should not be discounted.