Happy Atheist Forum

Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why? I really don't know but I haven't read that part in the bible that states that also. I've also heard that if a man stares at a woman with lust, then he has already committed to adultery. I find this all to be nonsense and absolutely ridiculous. I did some research and found out masturbation is 100% normal and should be performed not only for pleasure, but it lowers a man's chance of getting testicular cancer. I think it doesn't matter whether you're religious or not, every man in this world has at least masturbated once. Yet, in some articles I've read, religious men, particularly Christians, are ashamed they masturbate daily but don't know how to deal with it, so they pray and ask for forgiveness after their "fun time." Besides the obvious health reasons to masturbate, why do religious people do it anyways then? I do get angry sometimes, when "Christians" who claim they are in fact Christians, yet, they feel bad about the sins they've committed. My 20 year old friend, who is not married, is already 4 months pregnant and it bothers me. The baby's father is also my best friend by the way. I don't talk to either of them anymore and it saddens me. She was one of the most religious person I know, but somehow she is very excited to have this baby.

I don't get how people who have committed sins purposely, yet still expects God to allow them into Heaven. It also bothers me to see young, religious teen girls who get pregnant, yet praise God for the gift He has given her. Religion does saddens me, and questions my thoughts on human life. Sorry about my long post, but thank you for reading. Anyways, my question was really why masturbation is a sin? Or any kind of sexual activity for that matter. Sex is beautiful and everyone should experience it when they're READY.

Thank you again! Toodles!

If masturbation is a sin they'll have to open up a whole new level of hell for me just based on my teen years!  :D

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"If masturbation is a sin they'll have to open up a whole new level of hell for me just based on my teen years!  :D

Yes. They should make room for you, plus the 5 other billion people who have masturbated.

This must be that covet thing, coveting is a big no-no I guess there was no need to be specific "thou shall not covet thy own goodies".  Or maybe adultery?

"And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even." Leviticus 15:16-17

You're unclean, but unclean isn't exactly sin. Moreover, when you start to look up cases of "unclean" in the Bible, you start finding the more funny verses. Shellfish? Unclean. New mother? Unclean. Touch a dead person? Unclean. You get the picture.

Quote from: "Will""And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even." Leviticus 15:16-17

Geepers, that sounds like there was an expectation of lot of seed spilling since it was apparently everywhere!  But not so bad that it required soap, a quick rinse and your absolved.

By a fairly convoluted path, masturbation's status as a sin in Christianity is generally traced back to Genesis 38:6-10; the story of Onan.  According to an excellent article (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2205/what-exactly-was-the-sin-of-onan) from The Straight Dope, it was Thomas Aquinas who formalized masturbation as a sin.

 

Quote from: "The Straight Dope"...he set up a category of four "sins against nature" or "unnatural vices." These are considered more sinful than illicit sex, because they violate the laws of nature as well as the laws of society and the Church. In order from least to worst sinful:

Ejaculation without coitus, i.e., masturbation
Deviation from the "natural position" (face to face contact, female on her back)
Copulation with an "undue sex" (i.e., homosexuality)
Copulation with non-human creatures, i.e., bestiality.

I find it interesting that he considered pleasuring oneself more sinful than adultery, which after all is specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

I find the story of Onan very fascinating from a moral point of view.

Judah has casual sex with a Canaanite woman which results in two sons, Er and Onan.
Er was killed by God, because he was wicked.
Judah ordered Onan to marry his brother's wife and make her pregnant.
Onan performed the sex act, but didn't want to make her pregnant so he spilled his seed on the ground.
God was unhappy about this and killed Onan.

And years later the Catholic Church used this story to condemn masturbation and birth control
My moral lessons learned from the story:

1. God is a  nitpicker, who loves to kill people for silly reasons.
2. women have no rights in the Bible and they should be treated as cattle.
3. God should have slain Judah, for proposing such an immoral act to Onan.
4. if masturbation is such a great sin then why has God not slain billions of other people (including me) for committing this sin?

Quote from: "Will""And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even." Leviticus 15:16-17

You're unclean, but unclean isn't exactly sin. Moreover, when you start to look up cases of "unclean" in the Bible, you start finding the more funny verses. Shellfish? Unclean. New mother? Unclean. Touch a dead person? Unclean. You get the picture.

I always grew very bored very quickly when our school reverand used to read bible verses. The way it is written is simply awful! When they made the new testament, couldn't they have updated the way it was written as well?

"And god said, 'don't masturbate because i think it is bad and we all know where bad people go when they die, don't we? Hmmm? Now i think it's time for a SEXY PARTY!"

There's a lot less reading between the lines to be done with that statement.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why? I really don't know but I haven't read that part in the bible that states that also.

I grew up as a teenager in a conservative, "fundamentalist" church, but never heard one sermon or bible study or whatever about masturbation.  It was one of those "don't talk about it and maybe it'll go away" topics.  Realistically, I'd bet the majority of the people at my old church would just say it's a matter of personal conviction: if you think it's wrong don't do it, and generally mind your own business about it.

So they really weren't that crazy about the issue.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"I've also heard that if a man stares at a woman with lust, then he has already committed to adultery.

In the bible's defense, that verse is specifically talking about a married man looking at a woman other than his wife, and "lust" refers to a very intentional, consuming desire.  Not a "wow she's pretty" glance.  It's an important distinction, my church didn't go around telling all teenage guys that they were evil for noticing girls.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"I don't get how people who have committed sins purposely, yet still expects God to allow them into Heaven.

They believe all sin--intentional and unintentional (besides, isn't "unintentional sin" a contradiction?)--was paid for by Jesus' death and therefore can be forgiven.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"It also bothers me to see young, religious teen girls who get pregnant, yet praise God for the gift He has given her.

It'd be a bit hypocritical if they started preaching to others about sexual purity, yes.  But they're only human, I'm not sure if it serves our purpose to get on their case about it if all they're doing is praying for a healthy baby.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Anyways, my question was really why masturbation is a sin? Or any kind of sexual activity for that matter. Sex is beautiful and everyone should experience it when they're READY.

I've never heard of a church that thought sex between a husband and wife was sin.  They just think it's sin when taken out of that context.  The distinction is important, and you won't convince anyone to change their mind on an issue by misrepresenting their views.  As for masturbation, I'm sure you'll get every answer under the sun if you ask different churches, but I'm also fairly certain the vast majority of Christians are like the majority of everyone else: they'd rather you just mind your own business regarding such a personal matter.

Quote from: "karadan""And god said, 'don't masturbate because i think it is bad and we all know where bad people go when they die, don't we? Hmmm? Now i think it's time for a SEXY PARTY!"

Everybody loves a sexy party!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages39.fotki.com%2Fv1230%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2Fstewie-vi.gif&hash=22155ce8794e69d4bf0c403e895cd2d3d17ec0dd)

95% of men masturbate, the other 5% lie.

FACT

There is nothing wrong with masturbation and for most people, it is probably a healthy activity.

Also, I am a male but I find the gender double standard to be stupid. Females should be able to be just as open about masturbation as most males are.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "karadan""And god said, 'don't masturbate because i think it is bad and we all know where bad people go when they die, don't we? Hmmm? Now i think it's time for a SEXY PARTY!"

Everybody loves a sexy party!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages39.fotki.com%2Fv1230%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2Fstewie-vi.gif&hash=22155ce8794e69d4bf0c403e895cd2d3d17ec0dd)

Haha! I was hoping you'd take the bait. :)

Quote from: "karadan"Haha! I was hoping you'd take the bait. :)

What can I say... I'm predictable.

I'm going to hell for enough stuff already, masturbation is the least of my worries.

[youtube:q475k16u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShTm8MnUAjo[/youtube:q475k16u]

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"There is nothing wrong with masturbation and for most people, it is probably a healthy activity.

Also, I am a male but I find the gender double standard to be stupid. Females should be able to be just as open about masturbation as most males are.

No double-standard with me... :banna:  :banna:

But now they have a Hello Kitty vibe (http://www.goodvibes.com/display_product.jhtml?id=12AJ09)... gotta get one of those!!   :banna:  :banna:   YOWZAH!

Quote from: "rlrose328"No double-standard with me... :banna:  :banna:

But now they have a Hello Kitty vibe (http://www.goodvibes.com/display_product.jhtml?id=12AJ09)... gotta get one of those!!   :banna:  :banna:   YOWZAH!

A friend of mine was really into Hello Kitty. Was very tempted to get her one of those. Then realized I didn't know her well enough.  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "rlrose328"But now they have a Hello Kitty vibe (http://www.goodvibes.com/display_product.jhtml?id=12AJ09)... gotta get one of those!!   :banna:  :banna:   YOWZAH!

A friend of mine was really into Hello Kitty. Was very tempted to get her one of those. Then realized I didn't know her well enough.  :-)

Quote from: "rlrose328"Eh, how well do you have to know someone to get them a thoughtful gift?  Just tell her it's a neck massager.  My 9yo bought that line when he found my Water-Dancer in the bathroom drawer.  ;)

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"There is nothing wrong with masturbation and for most people, it is probably a healthy activity.

Also, I am a male but I find the gender double standard to be stupid. Females should be able to be just as open about masturbation as most males are.

I didn't realize there was a double standard what with the videos of this you can watch and all of the talk about the wonderful little (or big) helpful tools to use.  Especially not with this group apparently:)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_cAWo8VQONo4%2FScWGvHMsxNI%2FAAAAAAAAAdQ%2Fp7AJo7GCCUA%2Fs400%2FMasturbation-1.jpg&hash=3430322098744f4676e35138848e2018cb70cdbd)

(Is there any topic we can't find a funny cat picture for?)

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why?

Their is nothing in the Bible that implies the act of masturbation in it self is a sin.  However, the act of masturbation can have serious implications for some people in marriage as your essentially denying sex w/ the other party. I guess this would not be a problem for men with high sex drives. Finally, since masturbation generally involves fantasy, the sin as far as the Bible is concerned would be, if married,

QuoteMatthew 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

However, the bible does not comment at all on single persons.

Quote from: "Man-ofGod"

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why?

Their is nothing in the Bible that implies the act of masturbation in it self is a sin.  However, the act of masturbation can have serious implications for some people in marriage as your essentially denying sex w/ the other party. I guess this would not be a problem for men with high sex drives. Finally, since masturbation generally involves fantasy, the sin as far as the Bible is concerned would be, if married,

QuoteMatthew 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

However, the bible does not comment at all on single persons.

You can have sex with your partner and masturbate too. I don't see any issues arising from this unless the act of masturbation was actually stopping the sex from happening all together.

Meh. Some people have been in relationships for many, many years. They are still deeply in love and know each other perfectly. They might not have sex very often though. If i were married, i'd have no issue knowing my partner is fantasising about someone else if it is giving her the release she needs. I certainly wouldn;t consider it cheating.

I think that is a perfect example of how the bible unnecessarily complicates things which are generally very simple.

QuoteI think that is a perfect example of how the bible unnecessarily complicates things which are generally very simple.

But the bible doesn't complicate it because the bible doesn't mention it.

The story of Onan is not even remotely about masturbation, and I don't care if the catholic "condoms help spread AIDS" church says it is.

Masturbation is awesome!  Kids should learn about it in school.  Seriously - it's the safest sex there is.  It relieves stress, reduces the incidence of prostate cancer, relieves menstrual cramps, and satisfies sexual urges.  

Masturbation aids women in learning how to orgasm and learning how to have more satisfying orgasms.  It aids men in learning to prevent ejaculating earlier than desired during intercourse.  

Masturbation is a blessing for couples with disparate sexual drives or arousal cycles.  Masturbation is a marvelous release for those in long-distance relationships such as marriages in which a spouse is a soldier on deployment, away at school, or a business traveler.

It's just like religion to disapprove of the safest sex a person can have - can't have people enjoying themselves too much this side of heaven or not feeling dirty and guilty about a healthy enjoyment of their bodies.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Masturbation is awesome!  Kids should learn about it in school.  Seriously - it's the safest sex there is.  It relieves stress, reduces the incidence of prostate cancer, relieves menstrual cramps, and satisfies sexual urges.  

Masturbation aids women in learning how to orgasm and learning how to have more satisfying orgasms.  It aids men in learning to prevent ejaculating earlier than desired during intercourse.  

Masturbation is a blessing for couples with disparate sexual drives or arousal cycles.  Masturbation is a marvelous release for those in long-distance relationships such as marriages in which a spouse is a soldier on deployment, away at school, or a business traveler.

It's just like religion to disapprove of the safest sex a person can have - can't have people enjoying themselves too much this side of heaven or not feeling dirty and guilty about a healthy enjoyment of their bodies.

Very nice post. I agree with you 100% You forgot another reason why kids should learn about masturbation. Because simply, it's just fun.

Quote from: "Man-ofGod"

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why?

Their is nothing in the Bible that implies the act of masturbation in it self is a sin.  However, the act of masturbation can have serious implications for some people in marriage as your essentially denying sex w/ the other party. I guess this would not be a problem for men with high sex drives. Finally, since masturbation generally involves fantasy, the sin as far as the Bible is concerned would be, if married,

QuoteMatthew 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

However, the bible does not comment at all on single persons.

Are you saying that denying sex with the other party in marriage is somehow wrong? Do married people have a right to sex each other even when one is not feeling it?

Quote from: "SSY"Are you saying that denying sex with the other party in marriage is somehow wrong? Do married people have a right to sex each other even when one is not feeling it?

I think it is a little different when they are feeling it (by wanting to masturbate), and leaving you out. Personally, if I discovered that my partner was masturbating while I was available I would be hurt, and upset.

If I'm not around, or in the mood, then that is understandable.

Kind of a late reply, but that video is awesome, Hitsumei!  I think I'll sporadically laugh throughout the day whenever a line or two pops into my head.  

QuoteAre you saying that denying sex with the other party in marriage is somehow wrong? Do married people have a right to sex each other even when one is not feeling it?

No, I can understand if a party denies another party.  But in general, that is not really good practice.  I do not think you need to be Christian to realize this point.  But since i am a Christian, I hope you do not mind me sharing scripture (as it is the basis of my belief) on this point.

1 Corinthians 7:3-6

Quote3 The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. 4 The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.

 5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command.

Quote from: "Enoch Root"

QuoteI think that is a perfect example of how the bible unnecessarily complicates things which are generally very simple.

But the bible doesn't complicate it because the bible doesn't mention it.

The story of Onan is not even remotely about masturbation, and I don't care if the catholic "condoms help spread AIDS" church says it is.

hehe, ok, revised:

I think that is a perfect example of how followers of the bible unnecessarily complicates things which are generally very simple.

Quote from: "Man-ofGod"

QuoteAre you saying that denying sex with the other party in marriage is somehow wrong? Do married people have a right to sex each other even when one is not feeling it?

No, I can understand if a party denies another party.  But in general, that is not really good practice.  I do not think you need to be Christian to realize this point.  But since i am a Christian, I hope you do not mind me sharing scripture (as it is the basis of my belief) on this point.

1 Corinthians 7:3-6

Quote3 The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. 4 The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.

 5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command.

Be specific, is it wrong to deny the other party? The bible says you must satisfy each others sexual needs, so that would preclude any form of denial, right? What if I sexually need a threesome with my wife's sister?

Quote from: "SSY"Be specific, is it wrong to deny the other party? The bible says you must satisfy each others sexual needs, so that would preclude any form of denial, right? What if I sexually need a threesome with my wife's sister?

According to the Bible, God is very lenient towards immoral sexual relationships, providing of course that you are a righteous man. A good example is the incest story of Lot and his daughters in Genesis

Quote19:30  And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.   [Brick Testament] The Seduction of Lot
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

Little earlier in Lot's story we see an angry mob standing at Lot's house, demanding Lot to apprehend the two angels  that were present in his house. Being a righteous man, Lot replies to the mob

Quote19:8  Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Yes, the Bible is truly a reference book for family values   .

Quote from: "Will""And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even." Leviticus 15:16-17

You're unclean, but unclean isn't exactly sin. Moreover, when you start to look up cases of "unclean" in the Bible, you start finding the more funny verses. Shellfish? Unclean. New mother? Unclean. Touch a dead person? Unclean. You get the picture.

Not to mention birthing a son is cleaner than birthing a daughter!

Yesterday a group of religious nuts came to my school preaching about how the world is heading in the wrong direction. They started off by saying that God exists and how you can accept it or not. A little later they started talking about sin and how if you don't repent for your sins and you happen to die within the next second your going straight to hell. They attempted to move us with their generic stories. "At one time I was a sinner. I drank, I smoked, I had sex, I masturbated etc. Then I saw God. The end." They were so full of themselves.

I guess they'll have to send me straight to hell then. I guess they'll have to send every man to hell. Maybe hell wouldn't be so bad after all then. It would be more like a reunion of sorts. Groovy...

Quote from: "Fallen Jedii"Yesterday a group of religious nuts came to my school preaching about how the world is heading in the wrong direction. They started off by saying that God exists and how you can accept it or not. A little later they started talking about sin and how if you don't repent for your sins and you happen to die within the next second your going straight to hell. They attempted to move us with their generic stories. "At one time I was a sinner. I drank, I smoked, I had sex, I masturbated etc. Then I saw God. The end." They were so full of themselves.

I guess they'll have to send me straight to hell then. I guess they'll have to send every man to hell. Maybe hell wouldn't be so bad after all then. It would be more like a reunion of sorts. Groovy...

I never understood the reason for reprenting your sins. I mean, you'd do something that you know is wrong, follow through with it and then all of a sudden feel guilty and bad for what you've committed? Well, why the heck did you do it in the first place? I think relying on God is an easy way out and it stunts a persons growth on knowledge and learning from one's mistakes. Anyways, back on the topic, masturbation is fun! It shows that you love your penis enough to have a little fun time with him every so often. And God is all about love right? So that means God encourages masturbation!

That's my "irrational thinking" for the day.  

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"I never understood the reason for reprenting your sins. I mean, you'd do something that you know is wrong, follow through with it and then all of a sudden feel guilty and bad for what you've committed? Well, why the heck did you do it in the first place?

You've never done something to hurt someone you care about, and then regret it after?  Seriously?

Repenting isn't just a religious act, it's something normal people do on a regular basis when they admit they screwed up and promise not to do it again.  It's part of being human and interacting with other people.  It's saying "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that, and I won't repeat it."  Non-religious people don't call it "repenting", but it's the same thing.

Quote from: "Enoch Root"

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"I never understood the reason for reprenting your sins. I mean, you'd do something that you know is wrong, follow through with it and then all of a sudden feel guilty and bad for what you've committed? Well, why the heck did you do it in the first place?

You've never done something to hurt someone you care about, and then regret it after?  Seriously?

Repenting isn't just a religious act, it's something normal people do on a regular basis when they admit they screwed up and promise not to do it again.  It's part of being human and interacting with other people.  It's saying "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that, and I won't repeat it."  Non-religious people don't call it "repenting", but it's the same thing.

I think that's different, surely it's inadvertent when you do or say something that hurts someone. Fundamentalist members of the three Abraham religions have convinced themselves that things that they cannot refrain from are immoral, so they will inevitably do them, and then feel guilt, and have to repent. They can't feel sexual attraction toward anyone, male or female. They can't masturbate, take pride in themselves, or their work, or wish they had something someone they know owns. It is this warped sense of morality that leaves one constantly violating the rules, and having to inevitably repent for things they know they will do quite intentionally in the future, and it would be impossible for them not to.

Personally, I don't intentionally do anything I think is immoral, and when I do end up saying or doing something that I later judge to be in error, I apologize with the full intention of not repeating the mistake.

Quote from: "Enoch Root"

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"Hi to all. I've been talking to a couple of friends of mine who have been taking human sexuality classes this semester, and one brought up the topic of masturbation. I've heard before that Christians aren't allowed to masturbate because it is a sin. Why? I really don't know but I haven't read that part in the bible that states that also.

Quote from: "Enoch Root"I grew up as a teenager in a conservative, "fundamentalist" church, but never heard one sermon or bible study or whatever about masturbation.  It was one of those "don't talk about it and maybe it'll go away" topics.  Realistically, I'd bet the majority of the people at my old church would just say it's a matter of personal conviction: if you think it's wrong don't do it, and generally mind your own business about it.

So they really weren't that crazy about the issue.

I had the same experience when this topic came up in church. No one taught that it was "wrong", but more of just the personal conviction you mentioned.

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"I've also heard that if a man stares at a woman with lust, then he has already committed to adultery.

Quote from: "Enoch Root"In the bible's defense, that verse is specifically talking about a married man looking at a woman other than his wife, and "lust" refers to a very intentional, consuming desire.  Not a "wow she's pretty" glance.  It's an important distinction, my church didn't go around telling all teenage guys that they were evil for noticing girls.

Couldn't say it anyway better, so I'll just agree with you.