Happy Atheist Forum

I posted a video in my YouTube on Easter asking peoples' beliefs on how they _know_ (or believe) there is or is not a god.  I made the rules such that there's no debate allowed, I just wanted to hear the viewpoints behind "the other side". (I put "know" because many theists tend to claim they know :P

Also, a friend (trufun) cited that he began believing once his dad died, and that he has to believe in order to see him again.  This strikes me as really odd, like the desire to see someone can be enough of a justification to "Know" there's a god.

And this is a little silly:

Quote from: "resatti"GOD has created EVERTHING, and im thankful for that becuase GOD invented people and people made different cultures, like RUSSIA, and russians invented TETRIS.

Thank god for tetris.

If you have a YouTube, feel free to post your view, but again, I don't want debate to be in this video, it's just to hear out viewpoints.  Debate might go in another video, but my channel is mainly about programming and game design, not debates on beliefs.

I posted my response. I must say I'm always fascinated by the inconsistent quality of youtube replies. Some are brilliant, well thought out arguments while others are little more than trolling.

Here's some of the answers that I got:

Quoteum well i believe that there is a powerful being that you can't touch, hear, feel, smell, and (well) taste. and that being is the creator of the galaxy, universe, or whatever you want to call it.
the creator, i THINK is GOD(yo),
and GOD has created EVERTHING, and im thankful for that becuase GOD invented people and people made different cultures, like RUSSIA, and russians invented TETRIS.
I DOUBT that god is perfect becuase (in the bible) he !!!111!!!RESTED!!!111!!! wich meens he isnt perfect

the only thing that makes a christain a christain is the christain parents not telling there kids about Athiests and stuf, AND expirience like a miracle or you see a tunnel after almost being killed but then you come back to sences

i get bord at church there is nothing to do and id rather sit at home and do stuff on my computer
what makes an Atheist an atheist is christains acting like athiests

Im a Christain, AND IM PROUD OF IT

This probably isn't even worth pointing out, since it's one of the worse comments and not very well thought out.  I just told him not to speak for the other side, since he doesn't understand it, and people aren't "atheists because their parents were christian but acted atheist".

QuoteI believe in God because of the unanswerable.

'tis the point of religion.

QuoteFrom a scientific/analytical perspective, I once found it hard to wrap my brain around the existence of a supreme being, or God.

However, my father passed away when I was 22, and I find peace in knowing, in my heart, that I'll get to see him again one day. To turn my back on such a possibility is simply not an option - I have to believe.

'tis the other point of religion.
I don't see how the death of someone and the desire to see them again justifies believing in a god. :/

QuoteThe world is complicated. Our bodies themselves are insanely complex. When I study the stars and planets, seeing what normally happens in the universe, it's hard to believe that our planet ended up being something special on accident.

QuoteThe best example that I could point out in this small post is: You can not see the wind directly, but you can see when it is at work. You can not hear the wind, unless it passes around something.

But the wind exists. :/

QuoteOk so the reason why I belevein god is because, I seen a ghost when I was a little kid and plus I have this video documentry of this girl who got possed by the devil and it dont seem like no fake video to me because the girl really died.

Why do people take things at face value? :/

Quotethe bible doesn't appear to be changed to be 'perfect' it is written as is. There is an account during the Resurrection of Jesus that says one guard saw one angel, and the other saw two angels. If it was made up, I would surely think they would make those two accounts match.

Anyone else see a problem with this? x_x

QuoteI believe that God exists because of the data AGAINST God also. Many of the theories made to disprove my religion just seem so full of it. I know two theories against the resurrection of Jesus are that they went to the wrong tomb, (they also blame the wrong directions on women =/) and that Jesus never really died. The first one requires no extra commentary, although it is one of the most widely accepted theories. The second one really doesn't make much sense either.

I called him out and asked why he doesn't have to explain the reasoning against his two examples, as they are not inherently apparent to me. ;P

The thing that bothers me is that:
a) Everyone thinks that their religion's god is DEFINITELY the true god, and doesn't seem to give any thought into god beyond that.  Why not some other religion?  Why not no religion?  Not only do they not think critically about the existence of god, but they don't think critically about which religion has the "right" one.  They just accept that it must be the one they're born into.

b) One of the main reasons is that "Something has to come from nothing".  How do we know this is true?  If God is eternal, why would it be impossible for matter to be?

c) Everyone says "If I believe and I'm wrong, no harm no foul.  If you don't believe and you're wrong, you have a lot more to lose".  What if they believe, but in the wrong god?

d) People believe in a god for the same reason I don't believe in a god.  People look at how complex the world and everything is, and think "this couldn't have been random", but I look at the same world and how complex everything is, and think "this couldn't have been built, it has to have developed over long periods of time".

I kind of feel like pulling my hair out sometime, but I don't want to have the debate going in my channel, since I don't feel like it would do any good. Especially over a text medium.  
I did seem to have an effect on my roommate, who's Christian, when my point was how do you know what god said (mainly about: believe and be saved, don't believe go to hell even if you're good), and why it matters what you call "him" or what you believe he's said, and to who.

Try and make a YouTube comment so stupid, people think you are joking. Pro-tip; It's impossible.

On a more serious note, that chap who lost his dad is very troubling. Believing in something does not make it true, it is true irrespective of whether or not you have faith in it. This is so obvious, but goes to show how vulnrable people are when grief stricken, also, how good religion is at ensnaring the vulnrable.

Quote from: "SSY"Try and make a YouTube comment so stupid, people think you are joking. Pro-tip; It's impossible.

I dunno, that kid who mentioned Tetris leaves incredibly stupid posts on my channel all the time, I have a hard time believing he's joking. ;P

First, people are stupid.

Second, people are stupid.

Third, don't bother. These people are so deluded that they'll say or do anything to keep their reality in line with what they want to believe. Even the guy who lost his father (an experience I am intimately familiar with -- still atheist) said that he just has to believe because he wants it to be true.  

Moosader: just because someone says they are a christian that does not make them a christian many people use the christian church as a crutch,"yes thats right a christian said that"they want their get insurrance policy "get out of hell card"just on the chance the Bible is correct.Others use it to have a better feeling about their life,others use it to get buisness and so on and so on.Then there are those who think that just because they grew up in church that it makes them a christian,others think their responsibility stops with confession and who knows what others think. These are the ones you hear from a lot because they need to prove something to there own selves and they put a bad light on christians and what we believe.Now do not take this wrong there are many great defenders of our faith and I wish I were one but I'm not however God chooses to work through me anyway.I read what you posted about the wind,I do not know if you put the whole statement up .So I would like to take that a little farther.You believe in it because you can feel it you know its there because you can see its actions"moving leaves and dust and trees ect"you know it's the wind.This is only one of many reasons I believe,I can feel Him working in me and I can see His actions all around thus I know God and the reason I have these experiences is because I'm looking and not blindly as many would say I look for the evidence of Gods work and because I see it I know He is God.Chistianity is not a religion it is a relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and in that relationship you can know God in many awesome ways but there is effort on ones part to gain that deeper understanding.Christianity is not a religion,religion detracts from God,religion belongs to all those other gods that are in peoples lives.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

Quote from: "Godschild"This is only one of many reasons I believe,I can feel Him working in me and I can see His actions all around thus I know God and the reason I have these experiences is because I'm looking and not blindly as many would say I look for the evidence of Gods work and because I see it I know He is God.

Exactly how is he working in you?

What "actions" of your god do you "see"?

What "evidence" of your gods work do you see?

I would argue that everybody can feel the wind, but not everybody can "feel" god.

Quote from: "Godschild"Moosader: just because someone says they are a christian that does not make them a christian many people use the christian church as a crutch,"yes thats right a christian said that"they want their get insurrance policy "get out of hell card"just on the chance the Bible is correct.Others use it to have a better feeling about their life,others use it to get buisness and so on and so on.Then there are those who think that just because they grew up in church that it makes them a christian,others think their responsibility stops with confession and who knows what others think. These are the ones you hear from a lot because they need to prove something to there own selves and they put a bad light on christians and what we believe.Now do not take this wrong there are many great defenders of our faith and I wish I were one but I'm not however God chooses to work through me anyway.I read what you posted about the wind,I do not know if you put the whole statement up .So I would like to take that a little farther.You believe in it because you can feel it you know its there because you can see its actions"moving leaves and dust and trees ect"you know it's the wind.This is only one of many reasons I believe,I can feel Him working in me and I can see His actions all around thus I know God and the reason I have these experiences is because I'm looking and not blindly as many would say I look for the evidence of Gods work and because I see it I know He is God.Chistianity is not a religion it is a relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and in that relationship you can know God in many awesome ways but there is effort on ones part to gain that deeper understanding.Christianity is not a religion,religion detracts from God,religion belongs to all those other gods that are in peoples lives.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

There are a lot of fake christians out there, but let me take a guess. As a wild stab in the dark, completley un guided, random guess; you happen to be a real christian do you?

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "Godschild"Moosader: just because someone says they are a christian that does not make them a christian many people use the christian church as a crutch,"yes thats right a christian said that"they want their get insurrance policy "get out of hell card"just on the chance the Bible is correct.Others use it to have a better feeling about their life,others use it to get buisness and so on and so on.Then there are those who think that just because they grew up in church that it makes them a christian,others think their responsibility stops with confession and who knows what others think. These are the ones you hear from a lot because they need to prove something to there own selves and they put a bad light on christians and what we believe.Now do not take this wrong there are many great defenders of our faith and I wish I were one but I'm not however God chooses to work through me anyway.I read what you posted about the wind,I do not know if you put the whole statement up .So I would like to take that a little farther.You believe in it because you can feel it you know its there because you can see its actions"moving leaves and dust and trees ect"you know it's the wind.This is only one of many reasons I believe,I can feel Him working in me and I can see His actions all around thus I know God and the reason I have these experiences is because I'm looking and not blindly as many would say I look for the evidence of Gods work and because I see it I know He is God.Chistianity is not a religion it is a relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and in that relationship you can know God in many awesome ways but there is effort on ones part to gain that deeper understanding.Christianity is not a religion,religion detracts from God,religion belongs to all those other gods that are in peoples lives.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

There are a lot of fake christians out there, but let me take a guess. As a wild stab in the dark, completley un guided, random guess; you happen to be a real christian do you?

That argument reminds me of something....hmmmmmm....what is it?........


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Quote from: "Godschild"Moosader: just because someone says they are a christian that does not make them a christian many people use the christian church as a crutch,"yes thats right a christian said that"they want their get insurrance policy "get out of hell card"just on the chance the Bible is correct.Others use it to have a better feeling about their life,others use it to get buisness and so on and so on.Then there are those who think that just because they grew up in church that it makes them a christian,others think their responsibility stops with confession and who knows what others think. These are the ones you hear from a lot because they need to prove something to there own selves and they put a bad light on christians and what we believe.Now do not take this wrong there are many great defenders of our faith and I wish I were one but I'm not however God chooses to work through me anyway.I read what you posted about the wind,I do not know if you put the whole statement up .So I would like to take that a little farther.You believe in it because you can feel it you know its there because you can see its actions"moving leaves and dust and trees ect"you know it's the wind.This is only one of many reasons I believe,I can feel Him working in me and I can see His actions all around thus I know God and the reason I have these experiences is because I'm looking and not blindly as many would say I look for the evidence of Gods work and because I see it I know He is God.Chistianity is not a religion it is a relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and in that relationship you can know God in many awesome ways but there is effort on ones part to gain that deeper understanding.Christianity is not a religion,religion detracts from God,religion belongs to all those other gods that are in peoples lives.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

So a Christian that is a Christian because they fall back on God, because they are afraid of death, or of pain, or because they never imagined a world without God is no Christian at all?  Because I'd say all these people firmly believe in your god, and the associated stories.  Oh, they might grimace being told some of the Bible's stories, but if they read it straight from the Bible, they wouldn't bat an eye, because they all believe it to be God's word, and occasionally beyond their understanding.  They might not read it like they should.  They might not pray like you do.  They don't believe they have to, because God accepts them.  But they damn well believe.  See, I was of the mind that we had nothing to offer God, anyway, and the best way to realize God was letting him help us.  Two of my Christian friends have confirmed this to me.  So, what makes you a Christian?  Do you not care for yourself and your desires at all, even your desire for God to be real?  Do you try to be that selfless?  And do you think it matters to God?  

I think the only way to be religious is to use that crutch.  The need for something greater; something to guide, aspire to, or comfort.  I don't think there is any other way to gain belief in gods, nor do I think there is anything else to be done, because the only thing man could offer to a god is his weakness.  And this god might make him strong, but the purpose isn't the strength, but the redeeming, the betterment of man.  For why else should a god reveal itself to us, but for our own good?

This is what God is.  Man's desire to be comforted, man's desire to be purposed, man's desire to understand, man's desire to be loved, man's desire to be righteous, man's desire to repent.  Man's desire to be better.  So you tell me how you are more Christian than my friends, more Christian than I ever was.  Go on.  I'll ignore the fact that it's a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.  I want to hear your response.  I really do.

BuckeyeInNC: God works in and through me to serve others,those who are in need.I do not search them out God brings my attention to those who I can help with the skills God blessed me with.Now it is Gods will that I help those He brings into my life but He gives me the free will to reject that person or family if I so choose and He will continue to love me no matter what I choose to do,but when a person makes the right choice well thats when you can see His actions in action.The evidence that I see of Gods work,by just looking into the eyes of those God has helped through me,hey the God of all and aaaaaall things chose me a nobody(just ask SSY) to work through for others.I know this if you do not believe you'll never understand what I just wrote.

    Love to all in Christ Jesus

Moonsader:Your right not everyone can feel God.You must believe in Him before He will work in and through you in a way you can recognize.Well I do know one way God touches all but you would not believe me.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

SSY: You are fairly smart and to think I thought you were a few fries short of a happy meal.

McQ: You could be a comedian if you were funny.

Godschild:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages32.fotki.com%2Fv1046%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1232424457851-vi.gif&hash=37d4ccb3926471e07f0a3a4657a2b6f3a904573d)
...replies as separate posts. Wtf.

PipeBox:I'm sorry I came across as a self righteous fool.I really did not mean to.I came to Christ because of the fear of hel land many come to Christ because of all kinds of weakness.Actually that is what God wants,for us to see our need for Him in our lives.Yes Christ is a huge crutch and I'm glad I have Him to lean on,without Him I would still be in bad shape.I'm not a perfect christian not even close and would never pretend to be.Great numbers of christians studies Gods word,prays more,loves more,work harder ect. than I ever will.You and your two friends christian friends are right,we have nothing to offer God,thats why when we see christians doing good things we know God is working in their lives.I'm a christian only because of the grace of God that comes to me through my belief in Christ as the only way to salvation.Yes I do have desires for myselfand they keep me from knowing God as well as I would like,I'm human,and there is only one desire I need and that's my desire for God and to know Him in deeper and more wounderful ways.I doubt that I'm the christian your friends are,but if you were the christian you believe you werewouldn't you still believe? Please take note of what I wrote,that some people use the church as a crutchand it's true I've seen it,I've done it,and I'm ashamed of it,but never would I put myself above true believers in Christ,because by grace I have been saved not by works,I have been called to serve.Again sorry that I came across as a self righteous fool.I do find it a bit weird that an atheist would defend his christian friends belief when he makes fun of that same belief in others.Sure you've stop believing?No need to answer any questions unless you just want to,I just wanted to try and clear things up.

     Love to all in Christ Jesus

Quoteif you were the christian you believe you werewouldn't you still believe?

I had a few realizations that changed me.  It doesn't mean every aspect of my Christianity just fell off.  I still know what it was like, and what I believed.  Turns out my faith didn't reason as well as I had hoped, and I was willing to inspect it.  That's what it took, no more, no less.  If the idea of God is beyond reproach then you'll never be able to know if you're mislead.  I wager believers in Allah have the same conviction, that their beliefs should be beyond such inspection.  Anyway, I looked for a little more than my gut instinct, the opinion of my friends, and the Bible's endorsement, and I found nothing else I could say belonged to the Christian God.  And then I found I couldn't really say that about the Bible, my friends, or my gut, either.  And that's all my belief was based on, other than hope.  But I still know my bits of the Bible, and I still know my old Christian ways.  I just don't believe they are part of God's one revealed truth.

QuoteI do find it a bit weird that an atheist would defend his christian friends belief when he makes fun of that same belief in others.Sure you've stop believing?

I don't make fun of that specific belief in anyone.  It was my old belief.  I might attack it.  It's wrong for its own reasons, based on false premises, but Christians don't normally take those seriously.  This is an argument they're willing to hear.  It presupposes God, and allows, unquestioningly, the existence of evil, and allows God to not deal with it directly, but it deals in the very Christian philosophy of man needing to be better, and God being his salvation, God being perfectly benevolent and being willing to redeem us, and us having nothing to offer in return.  In this light, it is a very Christian reason to get you to stop throwing around the No True Scotsman Fallacy.  You can relate with it.  And yes, I am slightly attached to my old Christian philosophy.  I can endorse its reasoning even though it is based on a flawed premise.  I doubt we here can convince you that God is as likely to exist as Vishnu.  But maybe you'll walk away with a better understanding of your faith and us.  And in that light I felt it had to be said.

PipeBox: Thank you for sharing your beliefs and feelings that means alot to me and I take it your not mad at me I never intended to make anyone mad. I will defend what I believe and will never back down. I know that I'm not the smartest egg in the basket ,I do read and study about the christian faith and I do question some of the things  that I'm taught. My pastor ask us to question things we are taught,even his teachings of scripture if we think it could be wrong and I have. I do this so that I might know what I believe. I have a hard time understanding how others do not believe that there is a standard of rightness. Without that standard we would have people out of control and may I suggest that is why this country finds itself in the state it is. We can see the standard that man has set is not working. There has to be one standard of rightness that is solid,dependable,just,fair and ect.and I believe that standard must be God.I have come to a greater understanding of what I believe and who I am from being a part of this forum.Again thanks for your reply.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

Quote from: "Godschild"I have a hard time understanding how others do not believe that there is a standard of rightness. Without that standard we would have people out of control and may I suggest that is why this country finds itself in the state it is. We can see the standard that man has set is not working. There has to be one standard of rightness that is solid,dependable,just,fair and ect.and I believe that standard must be God.

Quote from: "Godschild"McQ: You could be a comedian if you were funny.

Thanks.



Hey, I didn't get a "Love to All" at the end of your reply!  

Does that mean it's "Love to all, with the exception of those who make a joke about the fallacy of 'No True Scotsmen'"?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Godschild"I have a hard time understanding how others do not believe that there is a standard of rightness. Without that standard we would have people out of control and may I suggest that is why this country finds itself in the state it is. We can see the standard that man has set is not working. There has to be one standard of rightness that is solid,dependable,just,fair and ect.and I believe that standard must be God.

I think that it's kind of cute how some Americans seem to think that only other Americans are on the intertubes.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Godschild"I have a hard time understanding how others do not believe that there is a standard of rightness. Without that standard we would have people out of control and may I suggest that is why this country finds itself in the state it is. We can see the standard that man has set is not working. There has to be one standard of rightness that is solid,dependable,just,fair and ect.and I believe that standard must be God.

I think that it's kind of cute how some Americans seem to think that only other Americans are on the intertubes.

You mean the web has gone worldwide? Damn, that's impressive!

Godschild: Please take this helpful suggestion from a theist...

Pray to god to give you two things: Civility and Punctuation.
(A few less "multiple sequential posts" might help too.)

Please review the forum rules.  Refrain from making any further condescending or insulting comments.

Thank you for your time.

Yours in punctuation,
JoeActor

joeactor and no condescending remarks have been made towards me.I was only making fun of what other were saying about me.

Love to all in Christ Jesus thisincludes you McQ and SSY

Quote from: "Godschild"BuckeyeInNC: The Easter Bunny works in and through me to serve others,those who are in need.I do not search them out Easter Bunny brings my attention to those who I can help with the skills Easter Bunny blessed me with.Now it is Easter Bunny's will that I help those He brings into my life but He gives me the free will to reject that person or family if I so choose and He will continue to love me no matter what I choose to do,but when a person makes the right choice well thats when you see His actions in action.The evidence that I see of Easter Bunny's work,by just looking into the eyes of those Easter Bunny has helped through me,hey the Easter Bunny of all and aaaaaall things chose me a nobody(just ask SSY) to work through for others.I know this if you do not believe you'll never understand what I just wrote.

    Love to all in the Easter Bunny

Fixed it for ya!

Oh, I understand it completely.  You refuse to answer the question and are completely delusional.  Do you see how silly you sound?

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I think that it's kind of cute how some Americans seem to think that only other Americans are on the intertubes.

You mean the web has gone worldwide? Damn, that's impressive!

We are quite self-centered.  Who was the comedian that joked about American's complaining about people being here and not speaking English, "If you are in America you should speak English, that's our language" and then you find those same Americans in Europe yelling "Doesn't anyone here speak English?"  Hehe, gotta love us  

As for the "standard of rightness"....just what standard would that be?  The blind following of one true god, beating our kids, wives being subserviant to their husbands, animal sacrifice, slave ownership?  I am always interested when christians claim they have the answers to morals we should be following, but never really can say what teachings, activities, morals, behavior, etc., are the ones to be followed, or in this instance the ones that equal the standards of rightness.

Quote from: "PipeBox"But maybe you'll walk away with a better understanding of your faith and us.

That is why I enjoy visiting this site. I wanted to look at things from a perspective that was outside my particular beliefs. In doing so (thanks to the quality of people/posts here), I feel like I've grown a bit more not only in my own faith, but grown to appreciate the different views found on HAF.

Thankyou for the Sig

I just had a deep conversation with someone who is Catholic. I generally try to avoid opening up with anyone on these types of issues unless I feel my views would be respected (and I try to be respectful myself).  Unfortunately this person got under my skin and we got into a deep discussion.  Of course when this happens, nobody wins.  I think the biggest beef I have is, in most situations, it's okay to have a different religion (Catholic, jewish, etc), but I feel that atheists and free-thinkers are looked down upon.  I try to be respectful of other beliefs and I expect others to do the same.

Anyway, one area that I had a difficult time responding to - why are the vast majority of people on this planet "religious"?  I'm using the term to mean worshiping a higher power.  Yes all religions are different at least in some small way, but almost all of them center on a higher power.  How can so many folks be wrong?

Quote from: "theVastMinority"Anyway, one area that I had a difficult time responding to - why are the vast majority of people on this planet "religious"?  I'm using the term to mean worshiping a higher power.  Yes all religions are different at least in some small way, but almost all of them center on a higher power.  How can so many folks be wrong?

... maybe they're not.

Welcome to the forum.  You'll find many different views here, and a lot of friendly folks willing to discuss them.

I myself believe that nobody knows the answer, so in a way, everyone is right... and everyone is wrong.
(at the same time?  Sounds like quantum physics!)

Off to check on my cat,
JoeActor

I think they believe because of a broad set of factors of culture, society, evolutionary psychology, and biology. Sadly, I'm really terrible at explaining it, so let me point you to a great article that should make you go "Hmm"

http://www.alternet.org/story/123873/why_do_people_believe_in_god/

Hmm...hey, you're right Jill!  Personally, I think the pressures of social conformity have a lot to do with it.

There is a theory that belief in the supernatural has a survival value, and therefore is part of our evolved nature.  I posted about the results of a study investigating this theory in another thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2948) here.

Thanks Recusant.  Very interesting article.  If true, it would explain a lot about the longevity of supernatural beliefs.  I've just never understood how these beliefs are somehow "exempt" from sound logical reasoning.  People depend on logic in every other aspect of their lives, why not religion?  Maybe this article explains it.

Quote from: "theVastMinority"Thanks Recusant.  Very interesting article.  If true, it would explain a lot about the longevity of supernatural beliefs.  I've just never understood how these beliefs are somehow "exempt" from sound logical reasoning.  People depend on logic in every other aspect of their lives, why not religion?  Maybe this article explains it.

Well... kinda.

I don't think the vast majority of the human experience has much to do with formal logic.
It's more action/reaction if you ask me.

And there is logic to having a god or gods.
In our world, things come from other things.
Baby deer from other deer, plants from seeds, glaciers from snow.
Not too much of a logical stretch to think that it all comes from something else.

Granted, that something else may prove to be fluctuations in a quantum foam, but it is something ;-)

Cheers,
JoeActor

Am an Atheist and all but i belive in God

Quote from: "joeactor"I myself believe that nobody knows the answer, so in a way, everyone is right... and everyone is wrong.
(at the same time?  Sounds like quantum physics!)

Off to check on my cat,
JoeActor

Is your cat named Schrödinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat) by any chance?