Happy Atheist Forum

Hello,

Here is a challenge for you who don't believe in God.

http://en.i3gaz.com/ (http://en.i3gaz.com/)

He revealed the Scripture and put His signature down that He is the author of the Holy Books.

Make sure to check out especially what is written there about metal Iron and Chapter 76, among other things.

Here's an example of what can be read there:

Adding up all verse numbers of the verses that have the word God - Allah in them from Qurans beginning up to chapter 76 named "The Human i.e. Man" gives 181838.

The factors of this number are:
2 x 23 x 59 x 67

i.e. the number divides by human chromosome number 46 perfectly.

The really interesting thing is that (concerning the factors):

2 is the 1st prime number in universe
23 is the 9th prime number in universe
59 is the 17th prime number in universe
67 is the 19th prime number in universe

Adding up all the serial positions of these 4 prime numbers gives nothing else but 46.

Dividing the number 181838 by 46 gives 3953. The 3953rd verse in the Quran (if considered independently from the context) means "It's We who put things at their right places"

Site gets updated regularly.

So extract a few of a practical infinity of numbers that could be associated with the quran, perform a specific series of operations on them from the infinity of possible sequences of operations, there are an infinity of ways you could come up with 46. And you claim that this somehow proves god exists?


You can get similar results from the bible. bible (http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/what-biblical-numerology)

or worse

Barack Obama is the antichrist- proved (http://iainmackinnon.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/numerology-proves-barack-obama-is-the-antichrist/)

What's that old saying about 1000 monkies typing on 1000 typewriters eventualy writing shakesphere.

Numerology!  Cool!  I was thinking about getting a degree in this stuff, 'cept I couldn't find an accredited school.
Check this out.

23 is the haploid chromosome count, and 2/3 is .666, mark of the beast (because God was talking to the animals when he said "Let us make man in our image," hence why he have hair and skin and stuff, it's the animal signature, their part in God's grandest design), but that's not all.  2 x 3 = 6, and man was created on the 6th day!!  Wanna see God's signature?  Man's number is 6, God's is 7, man under God is 7/6 which gives us 1.1666_ !!  Two things here: 1+1 = 2 invokes the first proof of mathematics, and it's the first prime!  A proof of the signature, which again is 6 unto infinity (also proves man is infinite in duration, so we're bound for hell if we don't repent).

Only the Old and New Testament explain to us the significance of these numbers, taking time to explain the numbers of God and man.  Your numbers are so large that they factor down to anything you want with ease, while mine lack such a benefit.  All are base, because God doesn't need complexity to get our attention.  It's built into His math, which we discovered.  It's built into us.



I could write so much more, but, on the other hand, numerology can eat a dick.  Allah might have considered making an aside where he told us how many solar masses the galactic core was, point blank, or told us the decay rate for argon-40/argon-39.  How about the speed of light, measured in AU, which even the people of the day would have understood even if they didn't know the distance.  Returning a number lots of times?  Please...

Chapter 16 of the Holy Quran is named Al Nahl - اÙ,,Ù†ÙŽÙ'Ø­Ù'Ù,,ِ which means The Bee. The interesting fact is that male honey-bee has 16 chromosomes (that's to say bee haploid chromosome number is 16). In this chapter there are other signs referring to the number 16.

The word Al Nahl (The Bee) appears only one time in the whole Quran in verse 68 of this chapter:

(ÙˆÙŽØ£ÙŽÙˆÙ'Ø­ÙŽÙ‰ رَبُÙ'ÙƒÙŽ إِÙ,,ÙŽÙ‰ اÙ,,Ù†ÙŽÙ'Ø­Ù'Ù,,ِ أَنِ اتَÙ'خِذِي Ù...ِنَ اÙ,,Ù'جِبَاÙ,,ِ بُيُوتًا ÙˆÙŽÙ...ِنَ اÙ,,Ø´ÙŽÙ'جَرِ ÙˆÙŽÙ...ِÙ...ÙŽÙ'ا يَعÙ'رِشُونَ)
"And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build"

Let's consider these facts:

* Bee chapter number is 16. This number was assigned to this chapter 1430 years ago.

* This verse consists of 16 Arabic letters (repeated excluded). The letters are: ( و، ا، Ø­ØŒ ى، ر، ب، ك، Ù,,ØŒ ن، ت، خ، Ø°ØŒ Ù...ØŒ ج، Ø´ØŒ ع ) Note that Arabic alphabet consists of 28 letters.

* The 16th letter in the verse is the letter Lam Ù,,ِ in ِthe word "The Bee" اÙ,,Ù†ÙŽÙ'Ø­Ù'Ù,,ِ - which is the last letter of this word. In other words, as the word Bee ends 16 letters have passed

* The letter Waw Ùˆ in Arabic is equivalent the word "and" in English. At the time the Quran was revealed it was written separate from following word, thus counting the words of this verse gives 16.

* The total number of verses in this chapter is 128. Verse 128 consists of 8 words and 16 x 8 = 128. The verse states:
إِنَÙ' اÙ,,Ù,,Ù'Ù‡ÙŽ Ù...َعَ اÙ,,ÙŽÙ'ذِينَ اتَÙ'Ù,َواÙ' ÙˆÙŽÙ'اÙ,,ÙŽÙ'ذِينَ هُÙ... Ù...ُÙ'Ø­Ù'سِنُونَ
"Lo! Allah is with those who keep their duty unto Him and those who are doers of good"

* According to one table of assigning letters number values (based on the names of Allah mentioned in Quran) the Arabic word for Bee "Al Nahl" اÙ,,Ù†ÙŽÙ'Ø­Ù'Ù,,ِ gets the value 16.

Chances of the above occurring due to coincidences is:
1 to 114 since Quran has 114 chapters
1 to 16
1 to 54 (number of letters in verse)
1 to 16
1 to 128
(too complicated to calculate probability for letter values)

Chances are:

1 to 201,719,808

 :cool:  :cool:  squared

Check out site for more!

*moan*

You just bastardized probability beyond belief.  

But that aside, sometimes you count letters.  Sometimes you assign numbers to letters and add those.  Sometimes you count words.  Sometimes you count verses.  Sometimes you take the sum of all the verse numbers.  Sometimes, after doing any of this, you create a factor tree, and then when two of the primes multiply to the number you were after, you call it a win?  The Koran is a big book, and the spin-offs are not light reading, either.  I dread to think what success numerology might see applied to every book in existence.

What I find amazing is that people spend that much time attempting to divine hidden messages from holy books to come up with all of that.

I am more than confident that I could divine messages from my dog in the news paper if I looked hard enough.

And now for something completely different.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages47.fotki.com%2Fv1404%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1233045316749-vi.gif&hash=23b091d3fc8ea68c5f57ff6bebe9b63e02c953f7)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fopcug.ca%2Fpublic%2Freviews%2FGraphics%2Fmonty_python_spam.jpg&hash=6c2fd5bee359a50012f6552ab2b65cd02ad247cf)

Thanks for the posts OP. Even though I didn't bother to read past about the first 3 lines of your topic before realizing that it would be better for me to just read the replies to your post.

Maybe you know that the Quran has 29, for you surely meaningless, letter initials such as A, L, M and T, H etc. If we figure out how many times each letter of the word "The Human i.e. Man" (Alansn) occurs (is repeated) among these initials and add the letter occurrences up, we get 46 (which is "coincidentally" also human chromosome number)

Here are the letters and their number of occurrences. You can add them up by yourself.

A - 13
L - 13
A - 13
N - 1
S - 5
N - 1

 

Thank you, Geir; an Islamic evangelist is a refreshing change from the stream of Christian wingnuts who wander through this site.  Not only that, but very few of them have bothered with numerological "proofs," that I recall.  I would not go so far as to say that anything you've presented up till now is in any way convincing, or even novel, but a little variety is always welcome. (Speaking only for myself.)

 I'm restraining myself from raising a glass of beer to your god, but only just.  Water instead:  

This thread breaks my heart. One of my best friends, a Muslim who I know to be a very intelligent and free-thinking individual, made similar arguments once. He spoke about how the Qu'ran predicted that there were 7 layers of atmosphere when it mentioned the 7 heavens. There are actually 4 layers: troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, and thermosphere. When I demonstrated that he was wrong, he did some incredible mental gymnasticsâ€"the kind I've seen from creationists for yearsâ€"in order to try and convince me that boundaries like the stratopause and mesopause were layers. I insisted that a barrier did not constitute a layer, but he couldn't accept being incorrect on the issue as it had been taught to him since he was a boy. We had to agree to disagree, something I hate, and we've not spoken of it since. I suppose I should simply be grateful that he doesn't have the same view of atheists as his religion. It's fascinating because otherwise he's a very thoughtful and honest individual. He knows more about automotive mechanics than I could ever hope to know. We chat about Lost and Heroes every week. We debate about capitalism vs. socialism. I tell him how delicious bacon tastes. Otherwise we're good friends.

Geir, are you willing to honestly have what you posted here challenged by rational and educated argument, or are you just here to proselytize? If you're here for the former, I request you respond to the challenges posted here. If not, I must ask that you cease.

I'm still waiting for the things that prove God.  All I see are some coincidences that came from a giant book.

Quote from: "templeboy"So extract a few of a practical infinity of numbers that could be associated with the quran, perform a specific series of operations on them from the infinity of possible sequences of operations, there are an infinity of ways you could come up with 46. And you claim that this somehow proves god exists?

Quote from: "Twiddler"I'm still waiting for the things that prove God. All I see are some coincidences that came from a giant book.

Right, this load of ... numbers doesn't actually prove anything. He's neither listening nor trying to engage in a conversation I fear.

By the way, lamest spam attempt ever.

Chapter number 57 is named "The Iron" - Al Hadid اÙ,,حديد. It's the only chapter named after a metal in the Quran. The word Iron appears in this chapter only one time in verse number 25.

Iron (Chemical symbol FE) has the atomic number 26 which means that it has 26 protons (this number is stable along all the variants of Iron). Iron has many isotopes. The most abundant isotope is FE-56 (56 is the approximate atomic weight of this isotype). Isotope FE-57 is one of the four stable isotopes (in fact it comes between FE-56 and FE-58 making it in the middle position between the three most stable isotopes, the 4th less stable isotope is FE-54).

Let's consider these facts:

* The number of this chapter is 57. FE-57 is one of the four stable isotopes of iron. Consider it's central position amongst the stable ones as mentioned above.

* The 26th occurrence of the word God - "Allah" - اÙ,,Ù,,Ù‡ - in this chapter appears in this verse.

* This same occurrence of the word God - "Allah" - اÙ,,Ù,,Ù‡ - is the 2444th from Qurans beginning. 2444 divides perfectly by atomic number of iron 26. It's equal to 26 x 94.

* This same occurrence of the word God - "Allah" - اÙ,,Ù,,Ù‡ - (which is the last of two in the verse) is the 26th word in verse. The first word of God - "Allah" - اÙ,,Ù,,Ù‡ - in this verse comes in the 20th position.

* The first letter in the verse is L (Lam) (Ù,,اÙ...) in the word Ù,,Ù,د. The interesting thing is that the 26th letter is also L (Lam) (Ù,,اÙ...) in the word (وأنزÙ,,نا). Even the 52nd (26 x 2) letter is also L (Lam) (Ù,,اÙ...) in the word (اÙ,,ناس). Isotope FE-52 is the only isotope that has 26 protons and 26 neutrons. The others have different numbers of neutrons.

* The 56th letter (relating to the most abundant isotope) is B (Baa') (باء) in the word (باÙ,,Ù,سط). We continue counting to find that the 78th letter (that's to say 26 x 3) is B (Baa') (باء) in the word (بأس). Notice how letters (by their positions) match at the multiples of the atomic number of iron and at the atomic weight of the most abundant isotope.

* Similar phenomena (of letters matching at key positions) is seen in other places in the Quran such as in chapter 76 (The Human). Letters there match at the number of chromosomes / chromosome pairs humans have.

* Counting further we find the the 104th (i.e. 26 x 4) letter in the verse is letter H (Haa') (هاء) in the second and last word of God (Allah) which is actually the last letter in it. This occurrence of word God - Allah is, as mentioned earlier, the 26th word in verse and the 26th occurrence in chapter).

* The gematrical value of the word Iron in Arabic is 26

* The word Iron - Al Hadid اÙ,,حديد comes in the 13th (26 : 2) position in verse.

* If we count the opening verse (Al Basmallah) as a verse, this verse would be the 26th.

* According to what I see on the internet (as at Wikipedia) the number of iron isotopes is 28. The number of words in this verse is 28. There are in addition to the 28 main isotopes six "child isotopes" (such as 54mFe under Fe-54), which are called "high spin isotopes". These correspond in number to the number of conjunctive Waws (Ùˆ) (ands) in this verse.

 

Quote from: "Will"Geir, are you willing to honestly have what you posted here challenged by rational and educated argument, or are you just here to proselytize? If you're here for the former, I request you respond to the challenges posted here. If not, I must ask that you cease.

Geir, Will is a moderator and has asked you nicely once to stop preaching and just discuss your views.  Preaching is against the forum rules but we are very welcoming towards discussion.  Please make yourself familiar with the forum rules and rules enforcement process:  viewforum.php?f=9 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewforum.php?f=9)

If a person is "smart enough" to figure out these numerical "coincidences", wouldn't a person be smart enough to write it in the book in the first place?
Doesn't mean god wrote anything, people can be creative too. ;P

Maybe I should have listened more in school... I like to write but am unable to emulate my thought strings into words as well as I’d like to. Not unless I spend a massive amount of time perusing my sentences and re-writing them dozens of times. I guess I should go to writing school. I have it all in my head but I just can't seem to adequately get it on paper (or monitor) when attempting to respond to a subject such as this, at least not with the ease, inventiveness and efficiency that I’d like.

I guess what I mean to say is, I wish I was as good at formulating exquisitely apt responses such as the ones seen in this thread (including the pictures).  

The standard in this place is ridiculously high.

I am presenting facts under the topic of proofs for God. I am not sure in what way I am violating the rules. But I wonder what made ppl here shift from being agnostic to becoming atheists?

Quote from: "Geir"I am presenting facts under the topic of proofs for God. I am not sure in what way I am violating the rules.

You're not engaging people in the conversation, just posting more and more and more of what you deem to be evidence. Do you really think your conclusions are beyond reproach? If so, you're not discussing, you're preaching. Preaching is bad on forums because it stifles debate and actively resists discussion. If not, why not engage people that tried to converse with you? Why not respond to challenges of your reasoning?

Quote from: "Geir"But I wonder what made ppl here shift from being agnostic to becoming atheists?

It depends on who you ask, but that seems like a very different topic.

Ok.. I understand what you mean.. So what do you think people about that phenomena?!

Quote from: "Geir"Ok.. I understand what you mean.. So what do you think people about that phenomena?!

I think there's nothing phenomenal about your "facts" at all. If you look hard enough, you can see anything you want to, especially in religious texts. Take The Bible Code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code) for example. I hardly read any of your "proofs" before dismissing them because you can do that kind of thing with just about anything.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"I think there's nothing phenomenal about your "facts" at all.

Bingo! We have a winner.

Numerology doesn't prove anything aside from one's creative talent at manipulating numbers.

There are a ton of posts on this forum.  I'm sure that someone with a lot of free time could go through them and find some numerological code which spelled out something interesting.

The OP has  not responded to anyone, it seems to me hes talking at us and not to us. If I were to make a guess I would say hes just copy and pasting without even reading the responses. It doesn't seem like hes here for a discourse just to preach,

Quote from: "Tanker"The OP has  not responded to anyone, it seems to me hes talking at us and not to us. If I were to make a guess I would say hes just copy and pasting without even reading the responses. It doesn't seem like hes here for a discourse just to preach,

We've spoken to him and he seemed to understand our point about just posting stuff being preaching.  So, we'll see how it goes.

Quote from: "Geir"I am presenting facts under the topic of proofs for God. I am not sure in what way I am violating the rules.

Meh.  Your "proofs" are nothing more than mathematical anomolies in large bodies of text.  It's human interpretation of randome noise in human written text.  Want some examples?  How about Moby Dick predicting the death of Lady Diana:
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/diana.html (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/diana.html)

... some more interesting stuff here:
http://www.awitness.org/essays/bibcode.html (http://www.awitness.org/essays/bibcode.html)

And plenty more out there with some very minor research.

When you start with a conclusion (ie. "My Holy Book Is Right"), then you can find the justification for it by using human intelligence and random noise in a large body of text.

Quote from: "Geir"But I wonder what made ppl here shift from being agnostic to becoming atheists?

Ok, that's a good question.  I don't know.  But I can tell you that I went from a Christian to an Agnostic Theist.  This was mainly due to the inconsistencies in the teachings, and the lack of any evidence to support the claims.  Add in all the other world religions that claim to "know" the truth, none of which have any more proof, and it was a fairly easy transition to admit that I don't know the truth... and I'm fairly sure that nobody else does either.  The best I can do is be open to other people's views so that I'm ready when (or if) the truth presents itself.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument from any religion.

My 2 cents,
JoeActor

About the Moby Dick thing.. You can't compare since in the Moby Dick some letters were skipped. In the things I present nothing is skipped.

Here is a generalized summary of a logical way to come up with the so-called "proofs" you present.

1) Come up with a systematic method of extracting some numbers from your text.
2) See what they add up to
3) Associate the output number with a natural phenonema.

That is why numerology fails as a rational, logical, scientific methodology. It is the antisithis of hypothesis-testing. Because as others have pointed out, similar methodology applied to any text can come up with similar results. That said, it is easier in "holy" books like the bible or qu'ran, simply because of the numerical way they are arranged.

Ever heard of a fella called Occam, who had a metaphorical razor? link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor)

Some of you say that I am arbitrator in my counting. Tell me what is arbitrary in this fact that I have presented earlier:

God, in relation to the creation of Man, refers to several things in the Quran such as water, clay, sperm and clot. The only one of these that has got a chapter named after it is the clot. Chapter 96 is named "The Clot" - in Arabic: Ala'lq. This word in Arabic refers to that cell assembly that forms as the egg gets fertilized. The word God "Allah" appears only once in this chapter in verse 14. The interesting thing is that this occurrence of the word "Allah" is the 2691st from Qurans beginning. This number, 2691, divides perfectly by human haploid chromosome number 23. It's equal to 23 x 117.

Not only that. This same occurrence is the 9th from the end of the Quran. The 9th prime number in universe is 23.

The word God gets main focus since it in many places it relates to chromosome number or atomic numbers etc.

The only two chapters that relate in very direct way to human creation is chapter number 96 "The Clot" and chapter number 76 "The Human". I am systematic in my counting. Consider this:

For each chapter of these two we write the chapter number and next to it the number of verses up to it (Arabic is right to left so chapters number is to the right of verse number):

559176 equals 46 x 12156
and
610696 equals 46 x 13276

(46 is human chromosome number)

I am really interested in open discussion.

The leading assumption is, as far as I can tell, that these numerical "proofs" were not intended at the time of writing, and thus must be divinely inspired. Correct?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"The leading assumption is, as far as I can tell, that these numerical "proofs" were not intended at the time of writing, and thus must be divinely inspired. Correct?

Well, they really couldn't have been, since I'm pretty sure a written, unaltered copy has been around since before we knew how many chromosomes we had or what isotopes of iron were possible, and almost certainly the chromosome count of a bee.  Rather, the method for obtaining the needed numbers is what is dodgy.  It isn't consistent each time, and the operators vary as required.  Need 5 and it's divisible by the 5th prime?  Win.  Looking for 46 when it divides by a host of other numbers?  Got it.  Need 16 and it's the 16th chapter?  Bingo.  Rather, this reads like a couple coincidences and an epic desperation to do whatever 2- or 3-step math is necessary to get the desired output.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Well, they really couldn't have been, since I'm pretty sure a written, unaltered copy has been around since before we knew how many chromosomes we had or what isotopes of iron were possible, and almost certainly the chromosome count of a bee.  Rather, the method for obtaining the needed numbers is what is dodgy.  It isn't consistent each time, and the operators vary as required.  Need 5 and it's divisible by the 5th prime?  Win.  Looking for 46 when it divides by a host of other numbers?  Got it.  Need 16 and it's the 16th chapter?  Bingo.  Rather, this reads like a couple coincidences and an epic desperation to do whatever 2- or 3-step math is necessary to get the desired output.

Well, obviously, yes.   But I'm just trying to clearly define Geir's assertion, in which case it wouldn't really matter if we had a copy before the number of chromosomes was found scientifically. I think that's the point he's making, much like Risky was trying to make last year: we didn't know but the Qu'ran says so, therefore, God. I just want to see if that's the underlying assumption, that the writers couldn't have known these things, thus the fact that they are found in the book makes them divine.

I am presenting facts and it's up to each reader to make their mind if these are coincidences or something else.

Just think about it:
The 26th word God occurrence in this chapter is in the verse mentioning iron.
This same word is the 26th in verse
This word is also the 2444th occurrence of the word God from Qurans beginning. 2444 is 26 x 94
The last letter in this word is the 104th in verse (26 x 4)
Letters match at the 26 multiples positions in verse and at the position corresponding to the atomic weight of the most abundant iron isotope
28 isotopes and 28 words in verse
The number of this chapter, assigned 1430 years ago, 57 corresponds to the atomic weight of the isotope that is in the middle of the three most stables isotopes of iron.

Note: 26 is the atomic number of Iron.

Geir, you're avoiding. Is your assertion that these "facts" were placed in the Qu'ran before being discovered scientifically, making the book divine?

Quote from: "Geir"About the Moby Dick thing.. You can't compare since in the Moby Dick some letters were skipped. In the things I present nothing is skipped.

You're joking, right?  You skip around the book and cherry pick passages to support your assertions.

At least with the Moby Dick prediction, a mathematical formula was used.  Letters were not skipped in a random order, but in a specific sequence.  That's why it must be true! (jk)

Tell you what, if you can present any holy book that actually states in a clear, unambiguous manner any of the following, then I'll be glad to take a look:
1) "The Atomic Number of Iron is 26"
2) "The Number of Human Chomosomes is 46"
3) ... any truly accurate predicion about the future (no, not a vague "could be interpretted 1.5 millon ways" quote.  Clear.  Unambiguous.)

Until you can present some real evidence, all the rest is just playing mental games with yourself.

I'll stick with the Princess Di prediction in Moby Dick,
JoeActor

Joe, just to play the, uhh, devil's advocate, how would a god explain to us what he wanted to say in ancient times?  I mean, he can't have used perfect English, lest we claim we took the word "chromosome" into our vocabulary just because a holy book said man had 46, and scientists said "oh, cool, 46 and 46, let's call it that" just like they did with Genesis.  There were no words in the native language, nor any language at the time to reliably describe chromosomes.  Trying to would just make you sound like, I imagine, more of the same.  Though I guess "The number of a man is 46" and "Iron number's is 26" would be very solid.  Still, to actually try describing what these numbers applied to?  Methinks that's how we get "wheels in wheels" and "angel whose skin was bronze and whose legs were as pillars of fire," so I can't say for sure we'd catch it right off.  Just out of curiosity, anyone aware of Bible/Koran/Talmud verses that sound like archaic descriptions for now-understood structures in biology, chemistry, or some area of cosmology or physics?  I mean, they've GOT to be there in droves with such a large sample size, but I think it's an interesting thing, even though it is hogwash.  Kinda like most conspiracy theories.  Good for the entertainment.  

Quote from: "Geir"I am presenting facts and it's up to each reader to make their mind if these are coincidences or something else.

They aren't even coincidences, the patterns are entirely projected.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Joe, just to play the, uhh, devil's advocate, how would a god explain to us what he wanted to say in ancient times? I mean, he can't have used perfect English, lest we claim we took the word "chromosome" into our vocabulary just because a holy book said man had 46, and scientists said "oh, cool, 46 and 46, let's call it that" just like they did with Genesis.  There were no words in the native language, nor any language at the time to reliably describe chromosomes.  Trying to would just make you sound like, I imagine, more of the same.  Though I guess "The number of a man is 46" and "Iron number's is 26" would be very solid.  Still, to actually try describing what these numbers applied to?  Methinks that's how we get "wheels in wheels" and "angel whose skin was bronze and whose legs were as pillars of fire," so I can't say for sure we'd catch it right off.  Just out of curiosity, anyone aware of Bible/Koran/Talmud verses that sound like archaic descriptions for now-understood structures in biology, chemistry, or some area of cosmology or physics?  I mean, they've GOT to be there in droves with such a large sample size, but I think it's an interesting thing, even though it is hogwash.  Kinda like most conspiracy theories.  Good for the entertainment.  

God wouldn't have to explain anything, she could just make it so that you know. The explanations devised by the people that understood it would probably involve inventing words to correspond to the new concepts the roots of which have some vague connection to the concept they are attempting to convey.

The same way that we explain anything to anyone. Someone with a nuanced grasp of particle physics could write entire books about it whether they had to invent their terminology or not. We do that kind of thing all the time whenever a new branch of knowledge opens up.  

Besides, I always found the idea that god dictated the bible so that it would be comprehensible to a small band of goat herders, as opposed to writing it to be comprehensible to all humanity for all time to be strange.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Joe, just to play the, uhh, devil's advocate, how would a god explain to us what he wanted to say in ancient times?  I mean, he can't have used perfect English...

I see what you mean.
But this is "God" (with a capital "G").  He should be able to inspire the writer to put anything down on the page that he wants.

I'd settle for sound-alikes even "And, lo, the Almighty Muckity-Muck created man (and woman) to contain many many many copies of 46 very small things.  And these things shall have a special name of kromasoam..."

God created the universe - so, he can't create a few words?

Or, why doesn't god inspire people to write today, or speak to them?
Oh... wait... we have names and drugs for people like that now.

I wonder if God is in the DSM-IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders)?
JoeActor

Ooh, ooh, let me play the fundie for a second!

*ahem*...

"God works in mysterious ways."

How was I?  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Ooh, ooh, let me play the fundie for a second!

*ahem*...

"God works in mysterious ways."

How was I?  

Sublime sir. Sublime.

QuoteHere is a challenge for you who don't believe in God.

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I'M SCARED!

I have a copy of Ulysses next to me, lets see if this is also the word of god shall we?

We start with the author, James Joyce, j is the 10th letter, and there are 2 of them

so, 10^2 is 100,page 100,  the 10th line, 10th word is "to"

to, or 20+15 if we take their positions in the alphabet. The 35th word on the page is "design"

Design, as in God's design for the human body and soul. "body and soul" has 11 letters. 11 is the 4th prime

4*11 is 44, or the chromasone number of the European Badger, which weigh, on average, 10Kg.

Those who beleive in christ are said to have euphoric happiness, sometimes described as FLOATING, hydrogen is the lightest element and therefor, floats the best.

The Rydberg constant ( determing the seperation of hydrogen energy levels)  is 13.8 ( eV)

10*13.8 is 138, which, when divided by 2 ( the number of js in James Joyce ) gives, nothing other than 46.

I will let you decide for yourself whether this is a coincidence or not, but I think we all Know whats REALLY going on here.

Some chritians do the same things and I ignore them also. Yes there are numbers to be worked out in the Bible these numbers are in prophecy making this a need for more revelation.There is nothing hiden about these numbers they are plainly revealed.Looking for a book full of contrdictions read the Quran.If you search back far enough in history you will find that a moon god is actually the god of the Muslim religion.Don't just take my word for it search it out.

Quote from: "Godschild"Looking for a book full of contrdictions read the Quran.If you search back far enough in history you will find that a moon god is actually the god of the Muslim religion.Don't just take my word for it search it out.

I'm not sure you want to go down this road.  In the competition for "more contradictions," the Christian bible may in fact beat out the Muslim koran.  In any case they are both quite inconsistent enough to be discounted, if you use consistency as a measuring stick for validity.

As for origins of gods, It's commonly agreed that YHVH was originally a war god of various Semitic tribes. Maybe you would like to read up on some of the history at the Biblical Heritage Center (http://www.biblicalheritage.org/God/el-goi.htm) site. The idea that Allah is in fact a moon god is dubious (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html) at best.

  I think that trying to divorce the Muslim god from the Abrahamic tradition is not going to work, and trying to impugn Allah as a mere moon god, unrelated to YHVH, is a failure as well.

Quote from: "SSY"I have a copy of Ulysses next to me, lets see if this is also the word of god shall we?

We start with the author, James Joyce, j is the 10th letter, and there are 2 of them

so, 10^2 is 100,page 100,  the 10th line, 10th word is "to"

to, or 20+15 if we take their positions in the alphabet. The 35th word on the page is "design"

Design, as in God's design for the human body and soul. "body and soul" has 11 letters. 11 is the 4th prime

4*11 is 44, or the chromasone number of the European Badger, which weigh, on average, 10Kg.

Those who beleive in christ are said to have euphoric happiness, sometimes described as FLOATING, hydrogen is the lightest element and therefor, floats the best.

The Rydberg constant ( determing the seperation of hydrogen energy levels)  is 13.8 ( eV)

10*13.8 is 138, which, when divided by 2 ( the number of js in James Joyce ) gives, nothing other than 46.

I will let you decide for yourself whether this is a coincidence or not, but I think we all Know whats REALLY going on here.

I spit Mountain Dew on my monitor when I got to the badger.

Well done, sir. You win three internets.  

Quote from: "Godschild"Some chritians do the same things and I ignore them also. Yes there are numbers to be worked out in the Bible these numbers are in prophecy making this a need for more revelation.There is nothing hiden about these numbers they are plainly revealed.Looking for a book full of contrdictions read the Quran.If you search back far enough in history you will find that a moon god is actually the god of the Muslim religion.Don't just take my word for it search it out.

Ha. I love it when religious people find and forge flaws in religions other than their own.