Happy Atheist Forum

Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  

Right, the religious nutter version of "without the bitter, baby, the sweet just ain't as sweet." (And is likely a re-worded version of this (http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp).

Anyone with a penchant for logic wanna tackle this one? The stupid makes my head hurt.

The saddest thing was the half-dozen "hallelujah" and "you're so right" posts that followed.  

Quote from: "rlrose328"Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  :brick: says enough.

Thank god for hitler.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  

He would not be the first Christian to get it wrong and he wont be the last.

Quote from: "Man-ofGod"He would not be the first Christian to get it wrong and he wont be the last.

Funny how the "christians" of the world can't even agree with each other. If you don't agree with a "christian" you aren't a true "christian" even if you call yourself a "christian".

What??  

What was that thing about people from Scotland...

No True Scotsman. Yes, apparently it is possible to become a Christian and still remain a heretic.

I think the best way to sum up this thread is with a Voltaire quote:

"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost their power of reasoning."

Quote from: "rlrose328"Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  

She forgot about natural evils which are beyond human control.

The whole "you have to know evil to appreciate good" argument is pretty common.  We are pretty much trained to think dualistically and many can't break out of that box.

That kinda makes me think of a wife beater saying "Why do you make me do this?" and "I'm doing this for your own good." while he beats the crap out of her.

Quote from: "Whitney"She forgot about natural evils which are beyond human control.

The whole "you have to know evil to appreciate good" argument is pretty common.  We are pretty much trained to think dualistically and many can't break out of that box.

I mentioned the "natural evils" thing to another friend IRL and she came back with "God gives us those too so we know how powerful he is."  Wow, what a kind and caring god he is... all this and evil too.  There are manmade evils we can control but there are the ones that God gives us of his own accord because we (collectively) broke the rules in the garden.

Sins of the father... anyone?   No wonder so many groups seek reparations for past evils.  God set the precedent.

that argument is not good for god's image
If I let someone suffer, and come help him later (IF I come) just so that I look good... then thiws means IM a selfish bastard who wants to appear good but really Im not. All I care about is my image

Quote from: "MariaEvri"that argument is not good for god's image
If I let someone suffer, and come help him later (IF I come) just so that I look good... then thiws means IM a selfish bastard who wants to appear good but really Im not. All I care about is my image

Pshaw, you'd be giving them a lesson in humility.   :crazy:

Quote from: "PipeBox"It's jaw-dropping what people are willing to believe, and I have a hard time believing it doesn't make them feel the dissonance, as well.  The problem of evil can be examined in an intellectual manner, but point-blank statement of how petty a god you believe in do not serve to reinforce your position (not to me, anyway).  Why is there evil?  Because God wants us to know we're wrong.  Question?  Non-answer!  

The crazy thing is that I've known some very intelligent people who actually buy into this garbage. That's what I can't figure out.

Ihateyoumike: how would you know you are not a christian.I've seen evolutionist disagree with each other does that mean that one of them is not an evolutionist,I do not think so.What about all the atheist and agnostics that are disagreeing with each other on this very website which ones will you deem to be nonatheist and nonagnostics?

 Love to all in Christ Jesus

Sophus: You like Voltire don't you how is it you can rely on what he says,christians and their beliefs are still here and we are not going away until Jesus returns and takes us home and in all honesty I hope you and all that are on this website will be also,not saying this to make you mad it's truely how I feel.

  Love to all in Christ Jesus

Quote from: "Godschild"Sophus: You like Voltire don't you how is it you can rely on what he says,christians and their beliefs are still here and we are not going away until Jesus returns and takes us home and in all honesty I hope you and all that are on this website will be also,not saying this to make you mad it's truely how I feel.

  Love to all in Christ Jesus

This is what you're doing to logic and the English language:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages47.fotki.com%2Fv1402%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1215725060318-vi.gif&hash=50cfe49135c0a799af1da8ac65701cd0f36e9a2d)

To me this whole arguement is very simple. They have to have some sort of answer to this obvious fallacy of their belief system "God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent, and omniscient yet we are surrounded by corruption, pain, and suffering.". The statement is irrational correct? So christians employ "Mental gymnastics" to avoid the obvious rational conclusion that their god cannot be all of those things at once(If such an entity existed, he/she would surely build for us some sort of utopia and let us live in guiltfree bliss. Not expect us to live a life of suffering and penance for "sins" we really can't avoid committing(Thats not just me talking. Christian doctrine will tell you that no one is completely sinless.).).

Quote from: "Godschild"Ihateyoumike: how would you know you are not a christian.I've seen evolutionist disagree with each other does that mean that one of them is not an evolutionist,I do not think so.What about all the atheist and agnostics that are disagreeing with each other on this very website which ones will you deem to be nonatheist and nonagnostics?

 Love to all in Christ Jesus

Um, he knows because christians are always saying other christian aren't christians just like you did here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3102&view=unread#p40038

Quote from: "Godschild"Sophus: You like Voltire don't you how is it you can rely on what he says,christians and their beliefs are still here and we are not going away until Jesus returns and takes us home and in all honesty I hope you and all that are on this website will be also,not saying this to make you mad it's truely how I feel.

Love to all in Christ Jesus

Umm... what? The Voltaire quote was in no way related to the No True Scotsman thing.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  

Unfortunately, that person is mislead.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Right, the religious nutter version of "without the bitter, baby, the sweet just ain't as sweet." (And is likely a re-worded version of this (http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp).

Anyone with a penchant for logic wanna tackle this one? The stupid makes my head hurt.

Surely all your hair has been burnt completely away by now?  

Quote from: "karadan"Surely all your hair has been burnt completely away by now?  

I'm barely recognizable.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "PipeBox"It's jaw-dropping what people are willing to believe, and I have a hard time believing it doesn't make them feel the dissonance, as well.  The problem of evil can be examined in an intellectual manner, but point-blank statement of how petty a god you believe in do not serve to reinforce your position (not to me, anyway).  Why is there evil?  Because God wants us to know we're wrong.  Question?  Non-answer!  

The crazy thing is that I've known some very intelligent people who actually buy into this garbage. That's what I can't figure out.

I wonder how much they really buy into it though. I wonder how much of it is simply a conditioned response which they don't even have to think about before saying.

If there was a hypothetical situation which based their life upon it. A choice. One way = life, but a confirmation they don't really believe what they are saying, or death and the confirmation they believed it so strongly they were willing to risk death to prove it.

I'm trying to think of a hypothesis where this could be done. It would certainly weed out the really insane lot from the nominally deluded.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "karadan"Surely all your hair has been burnt completely away by now?  

I'm barely recognizable.

Haha. Nice and crispy.

Quote from: "Man-ofGod"

Quote from: "rlrose328"Someone on Facebook posted the story about the student who makes his professor look like an idiot.  One of the comments is this:

"Also, God allows evil to occur so that His goodness, mercy, and grace seem all that much more sweeter when we turn to Him for help and forgiveness. Moreover, evil occurs only because we are a fallen creation. If we did follow the rules, we wouldn't have so many problems with evil, would we?"

I have no words... maybe you do?  

Unfortunately, that person is mislead.

Then the dozens of responses praising THAT response... they're all mislead as well?  Not "true Christians"?  Maybe they would say the same to you.  When does it stop?  Who determines who is right... who is the true Christian?  When you die and get to the pearly gates, it's a little to late.

God doesn't just allow evil.  According to "sacred scripture" he creates evil.

 

QuoteKing James bible, Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(Emphasis added)

Evil only exists without the presence of God.

Q: Does cold exist? A: No! Cold is the absense of heat!

Q: Does darkness exist? A: No! Darkness is the absense of light!
When we measure a dark room.. We are measuring how much light is present in that room.
Darkness cannot be measured.

The existence of God, or evil cannot be measured by mankind's miniscule brain power..

Quote from: "Psalm23"Evil only exists without the presence of God.

Q: Does cold exist? A: No! Cold is the absense of heat!

Q: Does darkness exist? A: No! Darkness is the absense of light!
When we measure a dark room.. We are measuring how much light is present in that room.
Darkness cannot be measured.

The existence of God, or evil cannot be measured by mankind's miniscule brain power..

Are you being serious? The problem of evil simply can not be dismissed with so easily! If "evil" were simply the absence of god's presence then you have to limit your god. "God is omnipotent" and "Evil is the absence of God" just don't work together!

If you believe both of these things about your God, then your God obviously doesn't exist.

God can either be:
a) An all-powerful entity that doesn't give a flying fuck about good and evil in the humanly sense,
or
b) The embodiment of everything good, powerless to stop evil in a "fallen" world.

Surely there's some other options available - but none of those would include an all-powerful and omni benevolent god (at least how we mortals would define one)

Quote from: "BadPoison"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Evil only exists without the presence of God.

Q: Does cold exist? A: No! Cold is the absense of heat!

Q: Does darkness exist? A: No! Darkness is the absense of light!
When we measure a dark room.. We are measuring how much light is present in that room.
Darkness cannot be measured.

The existence of God, or evil cannot be measured by mankind's miniscule brain power..

Are you being serious? The problem of evil simply can not be dismissed with so easily! If "evil" were simply the absence of god's presence then you have to limit your god. "God is omnipotent" and "Evil is the absence of God" just don't work together!

If you believe both of these things about your God, then your God obviously doesn't exist.

God can either be:
a) An all-powerful entity that doesn't give a flying fuck about good and evil in the humanly sense,
or
b) The embodiment of everything good, powerless to stop evil in a "fallen" world.

Surely there's some other options available - but none of those would include an all-powerful and omni benevolent god (at least how we mortals would define one)

I understand what you're saying, but God knows where evil exists. evil exists in the lives of people who do not worship him.

secondly, the bible says.. "no one shall be righteous, not one!"

when was evil first introduced in the bible? A: When God turned his back on Adam in the Garden.

Evil existed without God being present.

think about that one..

it's all one big metaphor!!! learn it.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I understand what you're saying, but God knows where evil exists. evil exists in the lives of people who do not worship him.

secondly, the bible says.. "no one shall be righteous, not one!"

when was evil first introduced in the bible? A: When God turned his back on Adam in the Garden.

Evil existed without God being present.

think about that one..

it's all one big metaphor!!! learn it.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages15.fotki.com%2Fv229%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2FKitten_judges_distance-vi.gif&hash=a8a0fafe08c7aa8e5c0d18735142f6a47c2cf536)

Hey Psalm,

I too allow evil to make myself look better. The other day a purse snatcher ran right by me. I tipped my hat and then told the robbed woman "Hey, at least I'm not as bad as that guy. Want to grab a cup of coffee?" I'm such a fantastic guy aren't I? WORSHIP ME!  

Quote from: "Psalm23"when was evil first introduced in the bible? A: When God turned his back on Adam in the Garden.

Evil existed without God being present.

think about that one...

I like how I can totally read that as God committing the first sin.  I think it has relevance to the first line of my sig.  

If we could only confront God while he was drawing himself away from Adam and Eve in the Garden.
"So, God, where are Adam and Eve?"
"What?  Am I man's keeper or something?"
"... What did you do?"
"Nothing, I just don't know where they are, OK?  But they're not hanging out with the serpent I don't know is in the Garden, so I definitely don't have to worry about them sinning or anything."

As to your statement that evil is only present where God is not, omnipotent God would make himself omnipresent if he cared.  He has the power, and yet he elects not to, ergo it's just as bad if I have a canteen full of water and I strategically avoid everyone dying of thirst because they got themselves into a position where they were dying of thirst by their own free will.  Sorry, the problem of evil is truly insurmountable for modern religion.

Quote from: "PipeBox"

Quote from: "Psalm23"when was evil first introduced in the bible? A: When God turned his back on Adam in the Garden.

Evil existed without God being present.

think about that one...

I like how I can totally read that as God committing the first sin.  I think it has relevance to the first line of my sig.  

I like that. Similar to this one:

"The attempt to solve the problem of suffering by postulating original sin depends on the belief that cruelty is justified when it is retributive; indeed, that morality demands retribution."

Sorry, in my opinion, no one can understand the concept of good and evil.  To Christians, it's trying to understand the work of an infinite God from a finite disposition.  It's impossible; there are some things in this world we were never meant to understand.  To non-Christians, it's a concept put forth by believers and, in recognizing that there is such a thing as inherent good and evil, you, essentially, imply there is such a thing as a God.  Nonetheless, you are essentially trying to explain away something you don't believe in and thus are farther from understanding the proposed concept.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I think I know the purpose of "evil," but why should I?  I don't think there's a single person who really understands this complex concept.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think they do.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinion.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Sorry, in my opinion, no one can understand the concept of good and evil.  To Christians, it's trying to understand the work of an infinite God from a finite disposition.  It's impossible; there are some things in this world we were never meant to understand.  To non-Christians, it's a concept put forth by believers and, in recognizing that there is such a thing as inherent good and evil, you, essentially, imply there is such a thing as a God.  Nonetheless, you are essentially trying to explain away something you don't believe in and thus are farther from understanding the proposed concept.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I think I know the purpose of "evil," but why should I?  I don't think there's a single person who really understands this complex concept.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think they do.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinion.

I don't think "good" and "evil" are concepts put forward by believers. They are concepts that are at the very root of human nature. The labels "good" and "evil" maybe, but not the concepts. To say that admitting there are positive and negative social forces in the world means admitting there is a god just doesn't follow.

Why someone is evil is a much more complex concept than evil, itself. Good and evil are completely subjective, after all.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Sorry, in my opinion, no one can understand the concept of good and evil.  To Christians, it's trying to understand the work of an infinite God from a finite disposition.  It's impossible; there are some things in this world we were never meant to understand.  To non-Christians, it's a concept put forth by believers and, in recognizing that there is such a thing as inherent good and evil, you, essentially, imply there is such a thing as a God.  Nonetheless, you are essentially trying to explain away something you don't believe in and thus are farther from understanding the proposed concept.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I think I know the purpose of "evil," but why should I?  I don't think there's a single person who really understands this complex concept.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think they do.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinion.

I don't think "good" and "evil" are concepts put forward by believers. They are concepts that are at the very root of human nature. The labels "good" and "evil" maybe, but not the concepts. To say that admitting there are positive and negative social forces in the world means admitting there is a god just doesn't follow.

Why someone is evil is a much more complex concept than evil, itself. Good and evil are completely subjective, after all.

Of course, agreed, good and evil are completely subjective.  If you are trying to deduce why one is "evil," "evil" in that sense describes attributes that individual may hold.  That does not necessarily imply an existence of a God.  But, if you are referring to evil as the "force of evil," this implies something beyond the natural world.  This is where the existence of a God only seems reasonable.

I believe a major discrepancy arises when theists and atheists are debating "good and evil."  A theist would be referring to the "force of evil" while "evil" to an atheist would merely be something of an adjective.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"But, if you are referring to evil as the "force of evil," this implies something beyond the natural world.  This is where the existence of a God only seems reasonable.

I believe a major discrepancy arises when theists and atheists are debating "good and evil."  A theist would be referring to the "force of evil" while "evil" to an atheist would merely be something of an adjective.

But why is it something beyond the natural world? Seems like simple anthropomorphism, to me. We have evil, the "force" of which being nothing more than the collected and varied motives of those doing evil deeds, implying nothing other than, vaguely, some universally agreed upon number of desirable and undesirable actions. The assumption is that there is something outside us that causes evil. This assumption is wrong.

You are right about (at least I can speak for myself) the atheist referring to "good" and "evil" as adjectives rather than some fantastic, external energy that guides human action. For me, the "force of evil" is as nonsensical as the "force of hope." It's just a way to project an aspect of human psychology and sociology outside ourselves.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Sorry, in my opinion, no one can understand the concept of good and evil.  To Christians, it's trying to understand the work of an infinite God from a finite disposition.  It's impossible; there are some things in this world we were never meant to understand.  To non-Christians, it's a concept put forth by believers and, in recognizing that there is such a thing as inherent good and evil, you, essentially, imply there is such a thing as a God.  Nonetheless, you are essentially trying to explain away something you don't believe in and thus are farther from understanding the proposed concept.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I think I know the purpose of "evil," but why should I?  I don't think there's a single person who really understands this complex concept.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think they do.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinion.

I'm going to go on a limb here and guess that you believe man gets his morals from the bible. That would be wrong. As an example how about child rape. As far as I know the bible says nothing about raping children in fact according to the OT the age of adulthood is 13. That means a 60 year old man can marry a 13 year old girl. Do you think child rape ,even at the ripe old age of 13, is wrong? If you answered yes then you have discerned good from evil without the bible, in fact against the bible.

It's in no way impossible to discern right from wrong and it is not a concept put forth by only christians. All people in the world decide right from wrong. Weather or not they have ever heard of Christianity. Most, if not all morals (good and evil) are subjective (hence the 13 year old age) to one certain group of people in one place at a given time. What is considered good and what is evil changes, or can be made to change, that's why otherwise sane people can be convinced that genocide, racism, human experiments, ect are justified when they do them.

Christians in no way have a monopoly to say what is good or evil.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"But, if you are referring to evil as the "force of evil," this implies something beyond the natural world.  This is where the existence of a God only seems reasonable.

I believe a major discrepancy arises when theists and atheists are debating "good and evil."  A theist would be referring to the "force of evil" while "evil" to an atheist would merely be something of an adjective.

But why is it something beyond the natural world? Seems like simple anthropomorphism, to me. We have evil, the "force" of which being nothing more than the collected and varied motives of those doing evil deeds, implying nothing other than, vaguely, some universally agreed upon number of desirable and undesirable actions. The assumption is that there is something outside us that causes evil. This assumption is wrong.

You are right about (at least I can speak for myself) the atheist referring to "good" and "evil" as adjectives rather than some fantastic, external energy that guides human action. For me, the "force of evil" is as nonsensical as the "force of hope." It's just a way to project an aspect of human psychology and sociology outside ourselves.

You are right.  Humans can be inherently evil.  But, because I am a Christian, I believe there is also such a thing as a "force of evil."  You may not hold that ideal.  That's okay.  Point is, you cannot try to explain away the Christian concept of evil because you simply do not see it the same way a Christian does.  Evil, in this sense, is used in different contexts.  Some concepts of the Christian faith are beyond understanding to a Christian, that's okay.  Personally, it is not imperative for me to understand it.

Quote from: "Tanker"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Sorry, in my opinion, no one can understand the concept of good and evil.  To Christians, it's trying to understand the work of an infinite God from a finite disposition.  It's impossible; there are some things in this world we were never meant to understand.  To non-Christians, it's a concept put forth by believers and, in recognizing that there is such a thing as inherent good and evil, you, essentially, imply there is such a thing as a God.  Nonetheless, you are essentially trying to explain away something you don't believe in and thus are farther from understanding the proposed concept.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I think I know the purpose of "evil," but why should I?  I don't think there's a single person who really understands this complex concept.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think they do.  They, of course, are entitled to their opinion. :lol:

Quote from: "Ben-AG"You are right.  Humans can be inherently evil.  But, because I am a Christian, I believe there is also such a thing as a "force of evil."  You may not hold that ideal.  That's okay.  Point is, you cannot try to explain away the Christian concept of evil because you simply do not see it the same way a Christian does.  Evil, in this sense, is used in different contexts.  Some concepts of the Christian faith are beyond understanding to a Christian, that's okay.  Personally, it is not imperative for me to understand it.

I find that interesting. Do you accept the "force of evil" because you are a Christian (dogmatically), or are you a Christian because you accept things like a "force" of evil (based on observation/decision)?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"You are right.  Humans can be inherently evil.  But, because I am a Christian, I believe there is also such a thing as a "force of evil."  You may not hold that ideal.  That's okay.  Point is, you cannot try to explain away the Christian concept of evil because you simply do not see it the same way a Christian does.  Evil, in this sense, is used in different contexts.  Some concepts of the Christian faith are beyond understanding to a Christian, that's okay.  Personally, it is not imperative for me to understand it.

I find that interesting. Do you accept the "force of evil" because you are a Christian (dogmatically), or are you a Christian because you accept things like a "force" of evil (based on observation/decision)?

I think that it is a loaded question.  I did not become a Christian because of the "force of evil," I am a Christian because I realized my brokenness.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"I think that it is a loaded question.  I did not become a Christian because of the "force of evil," I am a Christian because I realized my brokenness.

You may have misunderstood.   It's not loaded, I promise. I was trying to find out if your opinions about the force of evil we're discussing is based on your identity as a Christian, or if your identity as a Christian is based on the conclusions you've reached via the experiences you've had. Not leading, just curious.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"I think that it is a loaded question.  I did not become a Christian because of the "force of evil," I am a Christian because I realized my brokenness.

You may have misunderstood.  :D  Okay.  

I think it is obvious that, of course, my views on the forces of evil are shaped by the teachings of Christianity, and I do formulate my own thoughts on the matter.  Just as an atheist formulates his thoughts based upon his beliefs/values.  But, in no way do I feel my formulated thoughts are the truth.  The Bible is ambiguous and God never clearly presents His purposes.  How bumptious would it be of me to assume those purposes?

Whether it is a "force of evil" or any subjective evil, the question remains as to why it exists if God is omnibenevolent.  It is possible that the only evil that exists is only in the choice itself, not even the consequences, and that not even the choice is truly evil.  That is, there is no pervasive evil force, just what choices God likes and doesn't, no right and wrong beyond his whim (his whim being free to align to as many of your morals as you like), and he's willing for us to make any choice and eventually reap his dissatisfaction, and in the mean time, any other consequences that are manifest in reality.  For example, praying instead of going to a doctor can kill you, denying condoms to Africa will result in people getting AIDS in widespread fasion, and killing a person will just end in them being dead and the killer being in prison, until each of these unchristian example sinners die and go to hell.  This means there is no evil (it can be as subjective as any atheist or Christian likes), and no force of evil nor departure from God, but it means God must be monumentally callous, to witness so much of what is suffering to us and do nothing about it.

God must either desire for us to sin or be indifferent towards our sin, in this case.  And while we are on Earth, God must not consider our suffering to be of consequence, or it wouldn't exist.  Sin and suffering are not synonymous, and there can be no denying for you that he watches so many people suffer.  Now, you have an ineffable view of the purpose of evil, that's fine, but without knowing what its purpose is, you cannot tell me God is good.  God does not meet the human definition of good so long as you attribute omnipotence to him, as no "good" human with omnipotence would leave the universe in such a state.  Whereas you may think it is a humble virtue to claim we cannot understand these problems, I think it is intellectually dishonest.  God ought to make sense, having designed our reason, if he wanted us to believe in him.  If my religion doesn't make sense, then it means I did not choose it because it was reasonable, but that I chose it because it was either forced on me (making it so I start with the assumption it is correct to find that it is correct) or because I had some incredible personal experience.  I, personally, would need to make sense of this world before buying into the image of a god that doesn't reflect reality to me.  Calling it ineffable is too easy.  The same may be done for all other gods, and it is, again, intellectually dishonest.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Whether it is a "force of evil" or any subjective evil, the question remains as to why it exists if God is omnibenevolent.  It is possible that the only evil that exists is only in the choice itself, not even the consequences, and that not even the choice is truly evil.  That is, there is no pervasive evil force, just what choices God likes and doesn't, no right and wrong beyond his whim (his whim being free to align to as many of your morals as you like), and he's willing for us to make any choice and eventually reap his dissatisfaction, and in the mean time, any other consequences that are manifest in reality.  For example, praying instead of going to a doctor can kill you, denying condoms to Africa will result in people getting AIDS in widespread fasion, and killing a person will just end in them being dead and the killer being in prison, until each of these unchristian example sinners die and go to hell.  This means there is no evil (it can be as subjective as any atheist or Christian likes), and no force of evil nor departure from God, but it means God must be monumentally callous, to witness so much of what is suffering to us and do nothing about it.

If you are trying to understand the purpose of evil, you will be disappointed.  If you think you understand God and His purposes, your God is too small.  Furthermore, if you think God witnesses all this suffering and does nothing about it, you truly do not understand.  You do not believe God does nothing about it because you do not know God.  You do not care to see His works.  You fail to see His goodness amongst all the bad.  Of course, you are entitled to not believing He even exists which may, in your eyes, justify your arguments, but, to a Christian, the flaws in your arguments are palpable.  Where Christians go wrong in these sort of debates is present their opinion on God's purposes and write them off as the truth.  That's fallacious because even we do not know all His purposes.

Quote from: "PipeBox"God must either desire for us to sin or be indifferent towards our sin, in this case.  And while we are on Earth, God must not consider our suffering to be of consequence, or it wouldn't exist.  Sin and suffering are not synonymous, and there can be no denying for you that he watches so many people suffer.  Now, you have an ineffable view of the purpose of evil, that's fine, but without knowing what its purpose is, you cannot tell me God is good.  God does not meet the human definition of good so long as you attribute omnipotence to him, as no "good" human with omnipotence would leave the universe in such a state.  Whereas you may think it is a humble virtue to claim we cannot understand these problems, I think it is intellectually dishonest.  God ought to make sense, having designed our reason, if he wanted us to believe in him.  If my religion doesn't make sense, then it means I did not choose it because it was reasonable, but that I chose it because it was either forced on me (making it so I start with the assumption it is correct to find that it is correct) or because I had some incredible personal experience.  I, personally, would need to make sense of this world before buying into the image of a god that doesn't reflect reality to me.  Calling it ineffable is too easy.  The same may be done for all other gods, and it is, again, intellectually dishonest.

You, still, do not understand.  As a Christian, I do not believe the world and the universe is where it ends.  In fact, it is such a small fraction compared to eternity.  To call me dishonest because you do not understand Christian teachings is where the actual dishonesty spurs from.  You seem to have all your focus on here and now, which is fine, but you cannot explain away God's purposes here on Earth if that's all you see because God is so much more than the here and now.  Thus, your arguments explain themselves away when you begin to understand, according to Christianity, the Earth is not where it ends.  I am willing to endure the pains and troubles of this world because it is only a mere fraction of a second of the eternal life I will inherit if I am truly trusting in God to prevail.


It is obvious we are going to constantly clash with each other on issues such as these.  Of course, I regard your opinions and values with respect and reverence, just as I hope you respect mine.  It is quite possible we will never agree, and I am not here to convince you but merely to expand your mind and thoughts just as I hope you expand mine; close-mindedness to opposing arguments is a horrible outlook.

While I'm not sure you ought to revere my opinions, I appreciate the respect and I give you the same.  "Intellectually dishonest" isn't used as a slur to you, there are no respectful-sounding words for what I wish to say.  It is my opinion you haven't given your philosophy much thought, not that you are a liar, nor that you are deliberately avoiding examination of it.

Quote...but you cannot explain away God's purposes here on Earth if that's all you see because God is so much more than the here and now.

How can you assume there is a purpose when you cannot define it?  How can you claim to know one is there when you don't even know what you're looking for, and you cannot point it out to us?  Do you leave every philosophical problem alone, and ignore the pain and suffering because you believe you will spend eternity in heaven, so that the "how" and the "why" are no longer of any consequence to you?  Is it only the belief that life on Earth is a small fraction of life overall that allows you to avoid rationalizing these things?  If so, why do you start with the assumption heaven exists?  Why wouldn't you think on the veracity of God to determine the veracity of heaven, rather than the other way around?

I know you aren't here to convert anyone.  I want to know what convinced you.  If it was a personal experience, I don't have any business knowing, it would sound too fantastic to me.  If you reasoned it, I want to know how, because I'm trying to not be close-minded.  If God were reasonable, I'd like to know it.  And yes, short of reasoning and personal experience, the only other way to believe God exists is with an a priori assumption that he already does, so it's not that I'm trying to be close-minded.  It's that I haven't had any personal experience I cannot explain, and definitely none that seemed to stem from a god, and that I use as few assumptions as possible.

Quote from: "PipeBox"While I'm not sure you ought to revere my opinions, I appreciate the respect and I give you the same.  "Intellectually dishonest" isn't used as a slur to you, there are no respectful-sounding words for what I wish to say.  It is my opinion you haven't given your philosophy much thought, not that you are a liar, nor that you are deliberately avoiding examination of it.

Quote...but you cannot explain away God's purposes here on Earth if that's all you see because God is so much more than the here and now.

How can you assume there is a purpose when you cannot define it?  How can you claim to know one is there when you don't even know what you're looking for, and you cannot point it out to us?  Do you leave every philosophical problem alone, and ignore the pain and suffering because you believe you will spend eternity in heaven, so that the "how" and the "why" are no longer of any consequence to you?  Is it only the belief that life on Earth is a small fraction of life overall that allows you to avoid rationalizing these things?  If so, why do you start with the assumption heaven exists?  Why wouldn't you think on the veracity of God to determine the veracity of heaven, rather than the other way around?

I know you aren't here to convert anyone.  I want to know what convinced you.  If it was a personal experience, I don't have any business knowing, it would sound too fantastic to me.  If you reasoned it, I want to know how, because I'm trying to not be close-minded.  If God were reasonable, I'd like to know it.  And yes, short of reasoning and personal experience, the only other way to believe God exists is with an a priori assumption that he already does, so it's not that I'm trying to be close-minded.  It's that I haven't had any personal experience I cannot explain, and definitely none that seemed to stem from a god, and that I use as few assumptions as possible.

I understand what you are saying.  Realize the "how" and "why" are NOT of any consequence to me.  Who am I to question God on his methods?  And, while God does not unambiguously make clear his purposes on things such as "evil," He does make clear His overlying purposes.  God loves us and cares us about us.  He wants us to spend eternity with Him in heaven.  He forgives us for our transgressions despite how atrocious they may be.  He wants to enter into a personal relationship with each and everyone one of us so that we can feel His love and grace.  

God does make that clear.  It is irrefutable.  When you really trust that God loves you and wants the best for you, the "how" and "why" hold no weight.  They are merely details of which, if I knew, would do me no good but perhaps to provide you with something today.  I, also, do not assume that heaven exists.  I am told through the revelation of God, that is the Bible.

As for me personally, I did not reason my way to God.  It would be very difficult to reason your way to God as God is not a God to be reasoned with.  He is a God to be trusted and loved just as He loves us.  I did not grow up in a Christian household.  As a matter of fact, my parents are still not Christians.  I, also did not come to God by an "extraordinary" revelation by anyone's standards.  Although, it was extraordinary to me.  One night as I was staring at the stars and thinking about the vastness of the universe and how insignificant I was compared to it all, I began to look back at my life, and I realized in that moment how much I needed God.  I realized my brokenness.  I had an incredible feeling that was simply unexplainable.  In that moment, I knew God existed and He was trying to talk to me.  Now, this obviously does not encapsulate the entirety of my experience with God and may not seem "extraordinary," but it is a beginning.  If you have any further questions about me personally, feel free to ask.

I know that I am insignificant and imperfect.  I don't see how that fact would drive me to believe in a god, the God of the Bible out of all of them.  I would have to reason it out, determining that it was indeed that god, if any, that I felt the presence of.  I would need its doctrines to make sense, not just speak to my desires.  I've yet to see anything in nature that only the Christian God accounts for.  It seems to me you made one incredible leap of faith, and now reject any conspicuous problems as ineffability.  Do you think there is any possibility you are wrong?  Are you open to it?  Faith that cannot be wrong is dangerous and malicious.  That kind of faith threatens my reason with damnation and coerces it with rewards that it cannot comprehend nor justify.  Blind, assumptive faith was once my starting point, and I wouldn't let it become such again.  If God cannot be made sense of, or even evidenced, I don't think he has any right to expect my blind faith.

Nothing I say will convince you, at least, I do not expect it to, and I'm not sure I'd want it to.  I could continue explaining my views, if you'd like, or just drop the conversation so you're free to observe the atheist in its natural habitat, but there is no debate.  If you believe God exists, you admit the unexplainable existence of evil and that God makes no sense outside some choice domains.  I wish you could hear me speak, because I know this reads in a caustic fashion, but that's not my tone.  If God makes you happy, may you be happy with God for all your days.  Reason is no more important in this universe than happiness.  I think they're just two choices for some of us, neither being of any value beyond what we personally ascribe to them.  But I want to understand as much as I can, even though that is very little.  That makes me happy.

Quote from: "PipeBox"I know that I am insignificant and imperfect.  I don't see how that fact would drive me to believe in a god, the God of the Bible out of all of them.  I would have to reason it out, determining that it was indeed that god, if any, that I felt the presence of.  I would need its doctrines to make sense, not just speak to my desires.  I've yet to see anything in nature that only the Christian God accounts for.  It seems to me you made one incredible leap of faith, and now reject any conspicuous problems as ineffability.  Do you think there is any possibility you are wrong?  Are you open to it?  Faith that cannot be wrong is dangerous and malicious.  That kind of faith threatens my reason with damnation and coerces it with rewards that it cannot comprehend nor justify.  Blind, assumptive faith was once my starting point, and I wouldn't let it become such again.  If God cannot be made sense of, or even evidenced, I don't think he has any right to expect my blind faith.

I'm sorry, you cannot begin to understand my experience with God.  It is unique and personal and it is beyond my human capacity to explain it.  It is not as simple as you try to categorize it.  I provided it for you and mentioned, "Now, this obviously does not encapsulate the entirety of my experience with God and may not seem "extraordinary," but it is a beginning."  I do not expect you to understand, that's okay.  As far as a possibility of me being wrong, God is as real to me as my own mother and father.  I may not visually see Him, but I don't need to know He exists and to ask for a visual would just be bumptious.  So, if you are open to the possibility of your own mother and father not existing, then I will be open to the possibility of God not existing.  Although, this does not go to say that I think you are ignorant or oblivious.  I recognize you have different views and beliefs and respect that.  I agree, knowing God is a big leap of faith and plenty of highly intellectual people do not.  It would be a extremely difficult decision to take that leap of faith if you had not felt His love first.  Love is a requirement to trust and trust is a requirement to love.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Nothing I say will convince you, at least, I do not expect it to, and I'm not sure I'd want it to.  I could continue explaining my views, if you'd like, or just drop the conversation so you're free to observe the atheist in its natural habitat, but there is no debate.  If you believe God exists, you admit the unexplainable existence of evil and that God makes no sense outside some choice domains.  I wish you could hear me speak, because I know this reads in a caustic fashion, but that's not my tone.  If God makes you happy, may you be happy with God for all your days.  Reason is no more important in this universe than happiness.  I think they're just two choices for some of us, neither being of any value beyond what we personally ascribe to them.  But I want to understand as much as I can, even though that is very little.  That makes me happy.

I would not be here if I did not have an open mind to opposing arguments.  I really wish to peacefully coincide with people despite differing ideals/beliefs.  I am here to shed light on some miscategorizations you may have regarding Christians as I hope you will shed some light on my miscategorizations.  I think the way do that is as President Obama said today at Notre Dame, "Open hearts, open minds, and fair-minded words."

Quote from: "Ben-AG"I recognize you have different views and beliefs and respect that.  I agree, knowing God is a big leap of faith and plenty of highly intellectual people do not.  It would be a extremely difficult decision to take that leap of faith if you had not felt His love first.  Love is a requirement to trust and trust is a requirement to love.

In all fairness, I felt the love of Santa Claus when I was a child...

"There is no good and bad but the mind makes it so." ~ Shakespeare

The entire of concept of good and evil exist only in our minds. That's why you may become bewildered while analyzing something that doesn't actually exist Ben-AG.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Love is a requirement to trust and trust is a requirement to love.

No it's not. I can't trust my son to stand up to always peer pressure when I'm not around. Doesn't mean I don't love him.

Ok, I'll jump in the fray with a statement and a question...

Ben-AG: I like your general description of your belief.  That it is personal, and hard to put into words or define.

I think I agree on that level.

Now the question: Why did you choose a specific religion?  (in this case Christianity)

For myself, that was a huge incongruity.  I resolved it by becoming an agnostic theist.  God's still there, but beyond any human definition or organized belief system.

Hope this makes some sense (I'm tired!),
JoeActor

p.s.  Good thread everyone - I like it when we have a lively, civil debate ;-)

Sorry if you feel like you're getting swamped now, you can pass up this post without my ire.  My post here is more a statement than anything to be rebutted, though you may find it gives you an opportunity to elaborate on your faith:

It's worth mentioning that your parents are observable.  If they died tomorrow, you would be well aware of it.  If God died tomorrow the universe, assuming it is self-sufficient via natural mechanisms, would look. . .  exactly like it does now.  I'm not saying God can die under the Biblical model, I just want to indicate that one of these things is empirical, and the other is not.  You may feel the same certainty, but it does nothing to make God an observation.  All religions have people who are convinced of their tenets beyond the most remote doubt, or at least act as though they are.

I, however, feel the same certainty that the Earth will continue rotating tomorrow as I do that my parents exist.  Either of these things may be not be true, and their falsity can be empirically demonstrated to me when the sun does not rise tomorrow or my parents evaporate into thin air.  This is not so for God.  There is no observation in this universe sufficient to disprove his existence, so it would appear exactly the same to you if there was no God and yet nothing would be capable of convincing you.  God is not falsifiable, so by definition, you cannot be open-minded with a total belief in its existence.

I do "believe" some things, which is to say I think they follow through inductive reasoning.  I believe there won't be lions in my front yard next time I go outside because there haven't been any yet.  I believe the sun will rise tomorrow for a whole host of reasons that all round to my belief that the physical operations of the universe will continue in the same manner tomorrow as they have throughout the past.  God is not something you or I can believe in through deduction or induction, though.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"I recognize you have different views and beliefs and respect that.  I agree, knowing God is a big leap of faith and plenty of highly intellectual people do not.  It would be a extremely difficult decision to take that leap of faith if you had not felt His love first.  Love is a requirement to trust and trust is a requirement to love.

In all fairness, I felt the love of Santa Claus when I was a child...

And you have every right to believe in him.  Please, do not denigrate my God as I will try not to denigrate your Santa Claus. Thanks.

Quote from: "Sophus""There is no good and bad but the mind makes it so." ~ Shakespeare

The entire of concept of good and evil exist only in our minds. That's why you may become bewildered while analyzing something that doesn't actually exist Ben-AG.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"Love is a requirement to trust and trust is a requirement to love.

No it's not. I can't trust my son to stand up to always peer pressure when I'm not around. Doesn't mean I don't love him.

I am not attempting to analyze good and evil, sorry.  It is beyond my capacity to formulate analysis' of such a complex and profound concepts.  Now, you may think as Shakespeare did.  I have no problem with that, but I would say that there's a whole lot more going on than just that.

As for the second issue, I used trust and love in the broadest sense of the words.  In order for me to love people, I trust that they are innately good because God has made it so.  So, I love because I trust and trust because I love and trust God.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Sorry if you feel like you're getting swamped now, you can pass up this post without my ire.  My post here is more a statement than anything to be rebutted, though you may find it gives you an opportunity to elaborate on your faith:

It's worth mentioning that your parents are observable.  If they died tomorrow, you would be well aware of it.  If God died tomorrow the universe, assuming it is self-sufficient via natural mechanisms, would look. . .  exactly like it does now.  I'm not saying God can die under the Biblical model, I just want to indicate that one of these things is empirical, and the other is not.  You may feel the same certainty, but it does nothing to make God an observation.  All religions have people who are convinced of their tenets beyond the most remote doubt, or at least act as though they are.

I, however, feel the same certainty that the Earth will continue rotating tomorrow as I do that my parents exist.  Either of these things may be not be true, and their falsity can be empirically demonstrated to me when the sun does not rise tomorrow or my parents evaporate into thin air.  This is not so for God.  There is no observation in this universe sufficient to disprove his existence, so it would appear exactly the same to you if there was no God and yet nothing would be capable of convincing you.  God is not falsifiable, so by definition, you cannot be open-minded with a total belief in its existence.

I do "believe" some things, which is to say I think they follow through inductive reasoning.  I believe there won't be lions in my front yard next time I go outside because there haven't been any yet.  I believe the sun will rise tomorrow for a whole host of reasons that all round to my belief that the physical operations of the universe will continue in the same manner tomorrow as they have throughout the past.  God is not something you or I can believe in through deduction or induction, though.

Understandable.  The problem arises if I ask the question is God observable?  I would assume that you do not think so.  I would say He is.  I would say that I see Him everyday work in my life and in the life of others.  I see Him everyday when I go out and stare at the stars and the majesty of nature.  I see Him everyday when He provides me with discipline and stamina to get through the treacherous valleys that I encounter as I journey through life.  I see Him everyday when He bestows upon me strength to continue living and be truly happy because I know that something unfathomably great is in order for me.  

So, yes, God is observable, and I would indubitably notice if He was gone or died, which, of course, is silly.

I do appreciate your openness to the subject and am enjoying our conversation.  I wanna thank you for maintaining civility as I have not had many encounters with proclaimed atheists as so.  Do not confuse that as a characterization of atheists, perhaps, it has just been my experience which is by no means vast.

Quote from: "joeactor"Ok, I'll jump in the fray with a statement and a question...

Ben-AG: I like your general description of your belief.  That it is personal, and hard to put into words or define.

I think I agree on that level.

Now the question: Why did you choose a specific religion?  (in this case Christianity)

For myself, that was a huge incongruity.  I resolved it by becoming an agnostic theist.  God's still there, but beyond any human definition or organized belief system.

Hope this makes some sense (I'm tired!),
JoeActor

p.s.  Good thread everyone - I like it when we have a lively, civil debate ;-)

I did not choose Christianity.  Christianity chose me.  I believe Jesus came to the Earth to die for my and all our sins, and, when I think about what Jesus did on that cross, I get goosebumps and an unexplainable feeling of love.  I feel as if nothing in this world matters but what is truly important.  This only adds to how much Christianity is really a reality.  I don't get goosebumps or unexplainable feelings when I think of Muhammad or I would have to rethink my beliefs.  Like I said, the Christian God is as real to me as are my parents.  I can not possibly deny Him in replace for what I believe are false idols.

Well, thanks for discussing it openly with me.  I guess I can't argue with you, if I thought I was observing the Christian God, I'd believe in him too.

As it is, when I look at the sky, I feel a deep awe, because I am so small and it is so expansive and amazing.  I am a part of it, because there is no denying that I am surrounded the rest of the universe, buried in it, it touching me on all sides, and there is no denying that I'm made of the universe.  I'm a sentient piece of the universe trying to learn about itself.  The thought gives me a feeling I can scarcely explain, something that is so humble and proud and moving.  The sky is also a symbol of permanence.  Nothing lasts forever, but there are some things I can't screw up.  No matter how badly I flub up my life, the stars will still shine.

I do not see God in this, though I can't eliminate the possibility he is there.  The same can be said of Brahma.  I don't know what I see or feel beyond the natural, if there is anything there, but I definitely cannot discern it if it.  I can't even assert that everyone should feel the same as me, as they clearly don't.  You feel life is a gift from God (I think) and I just feel life is awesome.  I can know that much, that I am alive and I enjoy the experience.  I don't see God spelled out in the stars, and I haven't thought of any of my feelings as beyond explanation.  If any god exists, it hasn't made its impression on me.  Until it does, and I don't suspect there ever will be a divine revelation for me, I just want to keep on learning and goofing around.  Mostly goofing around.

Nietzsche once said that the bowels of the universe do not speak unto man, except as man.  I see the same universe you do, I see where all the points of light lie, I do not hear them telling me of God.  I just see them and think they're bloody stonking awesome.

Cheers.  

Quote from: "PipeBox"Well, thanks for discussing it openly with me.  I guess I can't argue with you, if I thought I was observing the Christian God, I'd believe in him too.

As it is, when I look at the sky, I feel a deep awe, because I am so small and it is so expansive and amazing.  I am a part of it, because there is no denying that I am surrounded the rest of the universe, buried in it, it touching me on all sides, and there is no denying that I'm made of the universe.  I'm a sentient piece of the universe trying to learn about itself.  The thought gives me a feeling I can scarcely explain, something that is so humble and proud and moving.  The sky is also a symbol of permanence.  Nothing lasts forever, but there are some things I can't screw up.  No matter how badly I flub up my life, the stars will still shine.

I do not see God in this, though I can't eliminate the possibility he is there.  The same can be said of Brahma.  I don't know what I see or feel beyond the natural, if there is anything there, but I definitely cannot discern it if it.  I can't even assert that everyone should feel the same as me, as they clearly don't.  You feel life is a gift from God (I think) and I just feel life is awesome.  I can know that much, that I am alive and I enjoy the experience.  I don't see God spelled out in the stars, and I haven't thought of any of my feelings as beyond explanation.  If any god exists, it hasn't made its impression on me.  Until it does, and I don't suspect there ever will be a divine revelation for me, I just want to keep on learning and goofing around.  Mostly goofing around.

Nietzsche once said that the bowels of the universe do not speak unto man, except as man.  I see the same universe you do, I see where all the points of light lie, I do not hear them telling me of God.  I just see them and think they're bloody stonking awesome.

Cheers.   :D  That is awesome.  You and I are not much different.  I just want to make clear to you, not that this is what you are implying, the vastness and greatness of the universe is not the only reason that brought me to accept Christianity.  It was extravagant and glorious before I came to know Christ, and, after, it was all that and more.

Understood.  I was a Christian once, though, and I thought the universe was made just for us, part of God's grand design.  Now that I no longer believe that, I think it is even more amazing.  That none of this was planned or preconceived -- the idea that it wasn't promised to me, that it wasn't man's inheritance for all of eternity before it existed -- that makes it so much more profound to me.

Oh, and sorry Joe, I know this is getting off topic, but there isn't much left to tread unless another theist wants to take up the cause.  I'd say the debate on evil is finished insofar as debating it with Ben goes.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Oh, and sorry Joe, I know this is getting off topic, but there isn't much left to tread unless another theist wants to take up the cause.  I'd say the debate on evil is finished insofar as debating it with Ben goes.

No worries.  Good discussion.  Both sides are pretty clear.  Some agreements, some difference of opinion/interpretation.

In the end, I'm not sure most of these questions have "answers" in the empirical sense...

Time for a  
JoeActor

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"In all fairness, I felt the love of Santa Claus when I was a child...

Actually, Santa Claus scared me.  To me he was a creepy guy at the mall that smelled of cigars and cheap wine and wanted to come into my house.

On topic:  If God made us, he could have made it so we experienced the good just as well without having to deal with "Evil", surely?

With a being that can do whatever the hell it wants, how would we know that God wasn't just having a bit of fun with the evil bits, and gave us the good to make the evil so much worse?  He certainly has committed some pretty horrific acts, if you believe the Bible.

It would be so easy to lie and say that you were "love", not a sadist.

Hitler said that you should lie to the people--the bigger the lies, the better.  This would certainly be a good one...