Happy Atheist Forum

Today, Keith Davis of the New york giants gave a motavational talk at my school. Big deal.

He mentioned faith. So, He's just religious. Then again. Then more frequently. And his talk ended with him Advertising a "Jesus camp" (Yes, THE jesus camp.) hosted by scripture union. (http://www.scriptureunion.org.uk/) I did a lookaround and found out that scripture union is

Quotean international, inter-denominational, evangelical Christian movement.

This is shocking. 44% of people in UK are Atheists, And in America, a good majority Evangelical. The thing that worries me the most is that Some of my freinds are looking at going there. I do support freedom of speech, but I don't support what might happen. Any help?

There was a movie about that camp. You should probably be able to find it in parts on youtube, or in full on a site like Hulu. I watched it somewhere online, and it was one of the most disturbing movies I've ever seen. The movie is un-biased and informative, but be prepared for brainwashed children that may or may not scar you for life.

That's allowed in school?  Tell your principal you demand they give you the opportunity to promote Satanism too. That should make them think before they let another Jesus freak give a speech again.

Supporting free speech is not the same as endorsing whatever anyone says. The very point of supporting free speech is allowing people to promote views that you disagree with.

You could always exercise your own, and promote that documentary about Jesus camp to the friends that you don't want to be convinced, or to go.

Oh, no. I'm entirely for free speech. I just thought religion was a "no go" subject in schools.

Quote from: "Sophus"Oh, no. I'm entirely for free speech. I just thought religion was a "no go" subject in schools.

They supposedly cannot bring in, and endorse a religion in the school. Having an athlete come in for a motivational, stay in school, and keep off the drugs talk, who happens to promote some religious agenda is quite different.

That documentary about Jesus Camp is horrifying and I'd be quite dismayed if any of my friends were thinking about going or sending their children there.  I can't support that type of ignorance in the world... ignorance and child abuse, quite frankly.  I'd also be quite upset, as a parent, if an athlete were to speak at my son's school and advertise some sort of brainwashing evangelical camp.  

I would be saying something to the school, the school board, etc.  ANY speaker at a school should be required to reveal, in writing, everything they will discuss with these children.  If someone came in to do a motivational talk and went on to discuss evolution and then endorse "science camp" or that camp in California (what's the name of it?), all HELL would break lose in our school district.  Why would an athlete or anyone else endorsing Jesus Camp be any different?   :hmm:

Quote from: "rlrose328"If someone came in to do a motivational talk and went on to discuss evolution and then endorse "science camp" or that camp in California (what's the name of it?), all HELL would break lose in our school district.  

All hell would rightfully break lose because an athlete should not be allowed to promote a science camp in school? Is that what you are saying? If not then saying "group X would do Y" does not justify your doing Y unless you agree that group X is correct in their doing Y. Their mere willingness to proceed with the breaking loose of the hell does not justify your doing so.

I think athlete or not, schools should be promoting science camps, and definitely evolution.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "rlrose328"If someone came in to do a motivational talk and went on to discuss evolution and then endorse "science camp" or that camp in California (what's the name of it?), all HELL would break lose in our school district.  

All hell would rightfully break lose because an athlete should not be allowed to promote a science camp in school? Is that what you are saying? If not then saying "group X would do Y" does not justify your doing Y unless you agree that group X is correct in their doing Y. Their mere willingness to proceed with the breaking loose of the hell does not justify your doing so.

I think athlete or not, schools should be promoting science camps, and definitely evolution.

Hitsumei, you lost me with the X vs. Y sentence.  (I've got a horrible headache and the example just doesn't compute right now.)

What I'm saying is that if someone came in to our school... athlete, politician, recording artist, homeless person, whatever... and used a "motivational speech" as an opportunity to discuss evolution as the "truth," the school district would be innundated by calls from upset religious parents that the school was pushing an atheist/evolutionist agenda.  Our charter school has had numerous requests from parents of students for ID!  I do not think a speech incorporating evolution (unless it was to say it's not true) would fly here.  I'm in Oregon, the not-so-liberal state.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Hitsumei, you lost me with the X vs. Y sentence.  (I've got a horrible headache and the example just doesn't compute right now.)

What I'm saying is that if someone came in to our school... athlete, politician, recording artist, homeless person, whatever... and used a "motivational speech" as an opportunity to discuss evolution as the "truth," the school district would be innundated by calls from upset religious parents that the school was pushing an atheist/evolutionist agenda.  Our charter school has had numerous requests from parents of students for ID!  I do not think a speech incorporating evolution (unless it was to say it's not true) would fly here.  I'm in Oregon, the not-so-liberal state.

I'm asking if you think that the complainants would be correct in raising hell that the school was promoting an "atheist/evolutionist" agenda? Would they be right to complain, because a school should not promote science camp or evolution?

If you do not agree, then I fail to see the relevance in mentioning that they would complain. Are you suggesting that anything anyone, or group does, or has done justifies your doing it also?

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I'm asking if you think that the complainants would be correct in raising hell that the school was promoting an "atheist/evolutionist" agenda? Would they be right to complain, because a school should not promote science camp or evolution?

If you do not agree, then I fail to see the relevance in mentioning that they would complain. Are you suggesting that anything anyone, or group does, or has done justifies your doing it also?

I don't know why you're hyperanalyzing my statement.  I'm simply making the point that we should speak out against using the school forum as a place to promote Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) because surely, they would do the same if the circumstances were reversed.  If we sit back and say nothing, it is tacit approval of the situation, and they will step up their game to introduce even MORE religiosity into the schools.  I want schools to remain secular in their teachings and proceedings.  

I'm not suggesting that anything anyone, or group does, justifies what I do... that is twisting what I've said into a sweeping generality.  Because some Muslims flew a plane into a building would NEVER justify my doing so.  

I believe a school should be able to promote science camp AND evolution because both are useful and logical things in our society.  Science camp promotes learning which is consistent with the school's objectives, and evolution has facts to back it up as a scientific theory.  Religion, god, Jesus Camp... all are fallacies, IMNSHO, and are not in keeping with the school's objectives and therefore, should not be promoted by the school or any speakers contracted by the school.  

The only way I believe religion and god can be presented in a publically-funded school is at the high school level (when kids have more life experience than my 9 year old) and in either a world studies class or a literature class examining the bible as a literary work.  To teach using the bible promotes Christianity over all other beliefs and that's not right.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"They supposedly cannot bring in, and endorse a religion in the school. Having an athlete come in for a motivational, stay in school, and keep off the drugs talk, who happens to promote some religious agenda is quite different.

Not really. It's the same outcome.

I'm in Catholic middle school and soon to be highschool . They can spew all the BS they want at everyone. The sad part is, most people believe it. In fact, schools that teach a sole religion from the earliest grades is one of the most cruel institutions psychologically. Anyways, this is a generalization but, all the motivational speakers I've heard are religous. It's a shame he promoted Jesus Camp in a public school though.

It seems weird that the church/State safeguards  rared up when a little individual religious-nut kid gave out Christmas candy to every kid in his one classroom during gift season (candy canes, with printouts of the glurge about jesus and candy canes) but an entire school assembly speaker gets to  plug Jesus Camp without many complaints. Could it be because the speaker was a sports team game guy and nothing is more important than sports team games?

It's not just mine: http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/2966 ... upport.pdf (http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/29665/champions%20for%20today%202009%20prayer%20and%20support.pdf)

Quote from: "SallyMutant"Could it be because the speaker was a sports team game guy and nothing is more important than sports team games?

Aw, come on --- "sports team games" are the most important thing!!!

But seriously, I love sports just as much as the next guy.  I just don't really care to hear professional athletes tell me how I should live my life --- I don't see us as having too much in common.  

This goes for TV/movie actors as well.

By far this is my biggest gripe with this "evangelical" attitude: presuming that I am the same as them, and that they know what is best for me.  I've heard from people (probably we all have):

Them: I used to be a drunk / screw-up / loser / low-life and this stuff really turned my life around and gave me a reason to live!
Me: Congratulation, I'm glad you found something that works for you and makes you happy.
Them: No, man, you're not hearing me --- this stuff changes your life!  Everyone needs this!  You gotta listen to me, man, really listen to me!
Me: Um, err, except that I am not, nor have I ever been, a drunk / screw-up / loser / low-life.  I already have a reason to live.  I'm doing fine with it.
Them: DUDE!!! You are NOT hearing me - this stuff WILL change YOUR life!!!!
Me: Oh for crap's sake, I'm outta here....
Them: Wow.  How could he just blow me off like that?!?  People don't realize how important this is.  How good it is, how right it is!  Somebody should do something.  Somebody needs to do something.  Maybe we could pass a law that would force people to listen.....

The fact that I think religious belief is wrong/unjustified is not nearly as important to me as the authoritarian outlook of these "evangelical" believers.  I'm fine with freedom of religion.  I'm fine with people having and following faith.  I'm not fine with being told that I need to do likewise.

Am I going to far?  Let me ask: was the school assembly optional, or was it mandatory?  And, was this school an institution of the state?

If the school would openly invite speakers of other religions, or no religion, and the student body and community at large will swallow it all without complaint or controversy, then freedom of speech is working fine.  Until that time, things like this bug me, and will continue to bug me.

mandatory, I didn't see anyone in my year NOT attend.

I'm in scotland, it's a public school, dealing with the disabled as well.

Hey Ninteen45 - yeah, that's what I figured.

I'm sorry  - must have been annoying.  Next time, you could stick a banana in your ear so you won't be able to hear.  This is my preferred approach.  :banna:

Quote from: "Ninteen45"It's not just mine: http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/2966 ... upport.pdf (http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/29665/champions%20for%20today%202009%20prayer%20and%20support.pdf)

I just wonder why that Scottish union couldn't find any Scottish athletes that are Christian.

Yuk. This looks like the sort of stuff you would see in my good ol' backward TX. I thought Europe was sane.

 

Quote from: "SallyMutant"Yuk. This looks like the sort of stuff you would see in my good ol' backward TX. I thought Europe was sane.

 :hide2:

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "Ninteen45"It's not just mine: http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/2966 ... upport.pdf (http://www.suscotland.org.uk/media/29665/champions%20for%20today%202009%20prayer%20and%20support.pdf)

I just wonder why that Scottish union couldn't find any Scottish athletes that are Christian.

We don't have any "Evangelical Christians". We have Catholics, Prodestants, Athiests, Agnostics, Jews, More different types of Muslim than you can shake a stick at....


But no plain old Evangelical Christians.

Bliss.