Happy Atheist Forum

This discovery has been hailed by Christians all across the Globe, but it has been halted by Islamic Leaders in Jordan.

This Cave proves Christ was worshipped approximately three decades before the first Gospel was written.. Pretty Neat, huh?

But wait!! There's more!! Atheists claim, Jesus of Nazereth was an invented character. but how is that totally true if he was being worshipped in 33 A.D, just as the N.T describes!? Hmm?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International ... 242&page=1 (http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5045242&page=1)

Any atheists want to take a shot in the dark here?

Hi. My name is Psalm23, and I am not smarter than a fifth grader.

*Standing ovation given by HAF*

I think you misunderstand the claim (despite the dubiousness of the evidence for the claims made in the article) I don't think that anyone who knows what they are talking about would say that Christianity does not predate the gospels. It's well known to. Dead sea scrolls reveal that several different "Christs" were worshiped in the Mediterranean for a few centuries before the new testament was written, or Jesus purported existed.

Was is disputed is the historicity of the Jesus Christ, or Yeshua ben Yosef specifically. The reason for this is the large time gap between the purported events, the nationality of the recorders of the events, the fact that no one who had ever met him personally has ever written anything about him, and he was completely ignored by contemporaneous historians in Palestine at the time, while -- if the gospels were true -- comparatively far less influential people, like John The Baptist warranted numerous historical mentions. As well as the geographical, historical, cultural, and legal errors made within the stories, and the degree to which the gospels vary from one and other.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"The reason for this is the large time gap between the purported events, the nationality of the recorders of the events, the fact that no one who had ever met him personally has ever written anything about him, and he was completely ignored by contemporaneous historians in Palestine at the time.

That's because Jesus told his followers; "Go on your way and tell them about the works I have done." The people that followed Jesus Christ did not have a notepad and pencil handy. Do you know about "Jewish Oral Tradition?"

There has been no one that I can think of named, 'The Christ' that was worshipped in Jordan in the year Thirty-Three A.D, or even remotely close... other than Jesus of Nazareth.

If Jesus wasn't invented until the year, let's say 55 A.D, then how did he have worshippers hiding in caves in 33 A.D? This discovery lines up perfectly with the Dates of the Gospels.

Secondly, why would a Muslim (Dr. Al-Hassan) living in Jordan want to admit that Jesus Christ was worshipped?

Islam is very strict against anyone who claims "Jesus was worshipped as an Earthly man".

As a matter of fact..I believe they behead Christians in some parts of Jordan if they are caught worshipping the Christ!

Why shouldn't it be so?

There were many "Jesus like" people living that time. And Some were also put on the cross just like the jew you are preaching now. It's not unlikely then that some of the Martyrs who took the "ultimate sacrifice" on a cross inspired some of their Disciples who started worshiping them just after they died or even before. I don't know what's so strange about that.

N.T. was written LONG after Jesus died. No wonder they described the worshipping. No wonder that dates line up perfectly

Quote from: "Psalm23"That's because Jesus told his followers; "Go on your way and tell them about the works I have done." The people that followed Jesus Christ did not have a notepad and pencil handy. Do you know about "Jewish Oral Tradition?"

There were about forty contemporaneous historians in Palestine at the time. Why was John the Baptist mentioned several times and Yeshua ben Yosef never mentioned once? Wasn't Yeshua ben Yosef far more influential? Have a far greater following, and stir up the religious leaders of the day far more? Why not even one mention?

The Jewish Oral tradition refers to before the Hebrew written language was popularized in the forth century B.C.E. and doesn't refer to after literate Jewish historians existed.  

QuoteThere has been no one that I can think of named, 'The Christ' that was worshipped in Jordan in the year Thirty-Three A.D, or even remotely close... other than Jesus of Nazareth.

Then you need to read up on your Palestinian history, and archeology. This is just an argument from ignorance. I don't know the capital of Guatemala, so it must not have one.

QuoteIf Jesus wasn't invented until the year, let's say 55 A.D, then how did he have worshippers hiding in caves in 33 A.D? This discovery lines up perfectly with the Dates of the Gospels.

The link that you gave for one, has no accepted evidence, or peer-reviewed work, and it just one guy making claims that he has yet to support -- but the problem is that you are laboring under the false apprehension that "Jesus Christ" was the only Christ to be worshiped in Palestine on or around the first century.

QuoteSecondly, why would a Muslim (Dr. Al-Hassan) living in Jordan want to admit that Jesus Christ was worshipped?

They already do. The Qur'an is largely based on the bible, and they need many of its events to check out as well -- but I don't even recall it saying that he is a Muslim, you seem to be just assuming that he must be because of his name. Though this also assumes that if it isn't true, he must be lying. He could be wrong, though even if he is right, and it was a Christian site, that doesn't mean that they were Christians that worshiped Jesus Christ, as opposed to say, Simon Christ.

QuoteIslam is very strict against anyone who claims "Jesus was worshipped as an Earthly man".

I think you are wantonly distorting the Islamic position that Jesus was not, nor claimed to be the son of god, and his being worshiped as such.

Seriously, what's your beef with Muslims? Were you jilted at the altar by one, or what?

Incidentally, proving that people worshiped someone says nothing about that someone, just those people. And "atheists" don't claim that Jesus was an invented character; some atheists claim that. You really, really, really need to stop generalizing everything about every argument you make.

(See what I did there?)

Well everyone I have an announcement to make... I'm a believer! I mean come on, people "worshipped" (nice spelling) a deity a really long time ago so it must be true... right? Oh wait... what's that? Hinduism is older by thousands of years? Okay, I guess I'm a Hindu now.

Hitsumei covered it expertly.  By the way, this story is from June 8th of last year, don't guess you have some follow up stories vindicating it, or far better, a reference to an anthropology or history journal?  Oh, but I will say, regardless of the truth of the article, I'd love to be there to examine those ruins myself.  I mean, just imagining, even as an atheist, discovering something in reference to early Christianity would be a thrill.  It's another piece of the story and filling it in is very satisfying.  In much the same vein, Psalm, have you seen the recent article about Eden?  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -Eden.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html)

It's the daily mail, so I trust it about as far as I can throw a lodestone, but there are pictures of people and rock and dirt, and it looks like a good time apart from the sweating and tiredness and all the other bits I imagine field work entails.  

Oh, and Psalm, this isn't encouragement.  You're way too willing to suck in articles and blow them back at us, which is ironic because even the writer of the article you linked seems very skeptical, being careful to use words like "claim."  The validity is questionable, but it would be a huge boon to Christianity if it were substantiated in the way you want it to be.  I don't think you're a bad person "at heart," as it were, but you need to gain a better grasp on reasoning and ethics.  You cannot justify the silencing of people just because you don't like what they have to say.  Likewise, if you find an article, you ought not accept it point blank as fact, especially not if it's coming out of a news outlet, especially not if the news outlet isn't certain of the claims.  There's almost always spin.

I should mention, so that I'm not misunderstood, that I don't take the position that Yeshua ben Yosef, or Jesus, the Nazarene was not a historical figure. I'm not a historian, and the majority opinion of historians is that a man by that name probably lived, at sometime between 30-15 B.C.E. and 5-20 C.E. and was a rabbi, or a teacher of some sort. Though the majority reject almost 90% of the new testament accounts as early first century myth-making.

I accept the consensus of historians on this matter. Here is a Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus)

The basic thing that the majority of relevant historians agree on is that Jesus was a Galilean Jew, with a small following, and was considered to be a teacher or healer of some kind. He was then probably at one point executed.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I accept the consensus of historians on this matter. Here is a Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus)

Well, if we're gonna Wiki, you may want to read this one too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus)

I'm just not convinced he existed as a real person at all.
The comment about John the Baptist having more historical references outside of the bible is a telling one, IMHO.

So, step one: Did he really exist? (not much evidence outside of the believer's own texts)
If you manage to get past step one: Is he anything more than a man?

Just call me Doubting Thomas,
JoeActor

Psalm23 you seem to make alot of assumptions and generalisations. I would like to acess your mistaken generalisation on Atheism and Atheists.

Please visit this site http://www.carm.org/. It's the Christian Apologists & Research Ministry web site. It gives a very good deffinion of who and what Atheists are and give alot of dos and don'ts for debting us. I'm sure you will find it a valuable resource and using it's sugestions should help your debating and credibilty on this forum.

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I accept the consensus of historians on this matter. Here is a Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus)

Well, if we're gonna Wiki, you may want to read this one too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus)

I'm just not convinced he existed as a real person at all.
The comment about John the Baptist having more historical references outside of the bible is a telling one, IMHO.

So, step one: Did he really exist? (not much evidence outside of the believer's own texts)
If you manage to get past step one: Is he anything more than a man?

Just call me Doubting Thomas,
JoeActor

History is not an exact science, and many of the figures we accept as real have no better historicity. I think that the lack of historical mentions contrasted with John the Baptist merely reveals that Yeshua ben Yosef could not have been nearly as influential as is claimed in the gospels. It is extremely unlikely that he had anymore than a very small following if he existed at all.

It is not unreasonable to take the position that he did not, but I do think that as long as I'm going to accept Socrates, Alexander the great, and other ancient historical figures, I might as well be consistent, and accept Jesus. It is either taking a position that many historians of ancient history would consider unreasonable, and require multiple first hand accounts, or first person writing, or accept third person accounts tentatively.

Although, if I were someone whose entire worldview hinged on Jesus Christ both being a historical figure, and the events told in the gospel as being true, I would require vastly more evidence than is available. I do think that it is unreasonable to lives one's life with the acceptance of the gospels as historical accounts as a premise.

I have no reason to doubt that a man named Jesus was wandering around in the desert way back when......As far as anything else goes...nah....don't believe it....I witnessed the worship factor some place else recently....a group of people...one person worshipped this other person and gave over the top compliments and stuff....until it snowballed into something ridiculous with lots of people hypnotized into this thought pattern over time....I felt like saying....you ought to name this person St. ......It is another group mentality thing. I see how that could have happened with the Jesus thing, too.

First, Jesus being a real person or not does not have much to do with whether he or his teachings were divine.  

Second, if you read about the discovery you will notice that some experts are cautioning people to not jump to conclusions until a thorough investigation can be done.  

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/1 ... hurch.html (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/11/jordan-cave-church.html)

Pictures:  http://www.monstersandcritics.com/scien ... rld?page=1 (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/features/article_1410384.php/In_photos_Jordan_Archeology_-_oldest_Christian_church_in_the_world?page=1)

Quote from: "Whitney"First, Jesus being a real person or not does not have much to do with whether he or his teachings were divine.  

Second, if you read about the discovery you will notice that some experts are cautioning people to not jump to conclusions until a thorough investigation can be done.  

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/1 ... hurch.html (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/11/jordan-cave-church.html)

Pictures:  http://www.monstersandcritics.com/scien ... rld?page=1 (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/features/article_1410384.php/In_photos_Jordan_Archeology_-_oldest_Christian_church_in_the_world?page=1)

Of course there will be critics on this discovery. Gee, Who knew?

Jesus told 70 people to "go and spread the word of God.."
This is exactly why we find the inscription; "the 70 beloved of God"
This Cave is making perfect sense now.. the Gospels, nor Dr. Al-Hassan is lying.. this is the real deal, folks!

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Seriously, what's your beef with Muslims? Were you jilted at the altar by one, or what?

Incidentally, proving that people worshiped someone says nothing about that someone, just those people. And "atheists" don't claim that Jesus was an invented character; some atheists claim that. You really, really, really need to stop generalizing everything about every argument you make.

(See what I did there?)

I don't have a beef with Muslims nor Islam. As a matter of fact, I think America should be a tad more strict with religious laws and what people are allowed and not allowed to say about God. No matter what country you live in.. you should be held accountable for your actions, or words. Atheists around the world are going too far. It's ok to "not believe," but they seem to think it's ok to bash and slander God's name. But in reality, it's not ok.

ATHEISTS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO SLANDER GOD'S NAME, OR USE HIS NAME IN VAIN! THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF BEING AN ATHIEIST!!

I wonder if I will see a t-shirt that reads, "Satan is a fag" at the next atheist march to Washington, D.C? Or..
"Satan does not exist, move on with your lives!!" ad campaign on a bus?

I would like to know how many times per day the average atheist uses the title "God" in their daily lives?

Sir, I'm certainly behind everyone else on this but I'm starting to think you a POE.

 

The picture at least was debunked on another atheist forum back in June as belonging to a dig of a 3rd century church in Turkey. Don't ask me to cite it but I know we've seen this one before.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't have a beef with Muslims nor Islam. As a matter of fact, I think America should be a tad more strict with religious laws and what people are allowed and not allowed to say about God. No matter what country you live in.. you should be held accountable for your actions, or words. Atheists around the world are going too far. It's ok to "not believe," but they seem to think it's ok to bash and slander God's name. But in reality, it's not ok.

ATHEISTS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO SLANDER GOD'S NAME, OR USE HIS NAME IN VAIN! THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF BEING AN ATHIEIST!!

I wonder if I will see a t-shirt that reads, "Satan is a fag" at the next atheist march to Washington, D.C? Or..
"Satan does not exist, move on with your lives!!" ad campaign on a bus?

I would like to know how many times per day the average atheist uses the title "God" in their daily lives?

You obviously do have beef with Muslims and Islam. Any cursory glance at your posts will show you have an absolutely bigoted and prejudicial view of both Muslims and their faith.

An important thing about living in a country that values freedoms: your desires are not and should not be others' laws. You must have missed my post about Darth Vader (and SSY's devastating response   ). Atheists are not held to the same spiritual or religious laws as those who follow the faiths. This is true in the same vein as it is true that welders do not need to follow the same rules or regulations as dentists: they simply do not apply.

You think it's not okay to not believe in a god or to "slander" that god's name (though how you can slander the name of a fictional character, I'm not sure; are there legal precedents for that?). Thankfully for everyone else who doesn't think like you, it doesn't matter what you think.

Atheists don't spend time and effort helping people get over their Satan delusions because ... well, it's like raising millions of dollars for people who don't like the musical Hair: pointless and a waste of resources.

You've admitted that you can't stand atheists, the way they think, and how they live. My suggestion is you take your intolerant, small-minded attitude and leave. Can you stand people who like bands other than your favorite? Can you stand people who like different movies than you? Can you stand people who eat different food? For us, there is no difference between those mundane aspects of life and belief in a god.

I take that back. There is one difference: people usually aren't killed because they don't like hummus or the Rolling Stones.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"I take that back. There is one difference: people usually aren't killed because they don't like hummus or the Rolling Stones.

They ought to be.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"You obviously do have beef with Muslims and Islam. Any cursory glance at your posts will show you have an absolutely bigoted and prejudicial view of both Muslims and their faith.

Yes, I guess I do have a problem with Islam. Osama bin Laden could care less if you or I were in those Towers.

Christians come to your front door to be your friend, and show you Salvation. Islam wants your skin burning off your bones. Gee, why does Christianity take so much heat in the atheist crowd?

QuoteAn important thing about living in a country that values freedoms: your desires are not and should not be others' laws.

Let's see here. Christmas of 08. an atheist violated the "Freedom of Speech" of the Christians who displayed a Nativity Scene in the Congress Building. He just felt the burning desire to place a huge 10 foot poster next to the scene, "There is no God, or angels, and no baby Jesus". Do you call that atheism, or hatred? Hmm? I mean, come on now, yes, we already know the mind of an atheist.. do you feel the need to display posters during our Holiday? Does that make you feel superior?

QuoteYou must have missed my post about Darth Vader (and SSY's devastating response   ). Atheists are not held to the same spiritual or religious laws as those who follow the faiths. This is true in the same vein as it is true that welders do not need to follow the same rules or regulations as dentists: they simply do not apply.

atheists are held responsible for every action they make. Just because they live Godless lives.. that doesn't make it 100% fact that God isn't there. Atheists are living a 50/50 chance. And that's that. atheism is nothing but a guess.

QuoteYou think it's not okay to not believe in a god or to "slander" that god's name (though how you can slander the name of a fictional character, I'm not sure; are there legal precedents for that?). Thankfully for everyone else who doesn't think like you, it doesn't matter what you think.

I don't think an atheist should say, "God-dammit, or Christ almighty!" when they are expressing feelings. Why not scream out, "Thor-dammit" or "Allah almighty!"

QuoteAtheists don't spend time and effort helping people get over their Satan delusions because ... well, it's like raising millions of dollars for people who don't like the musical Hair: pointless and a waste of resources.

atheists have absolutely zero concern about Satan. No matter how many videos I can show where Satan worshipers are beheading farm animals in the name of Satan.. and yet.. nothing would be said about that. Heck.. 19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

Can you just imagine the explosion of hatred and outrage from atheists if 9-11 was organized by Catholics??!!

QuoteYou've admitted that you can't stand atheists, the way they think, and how they live. My suggestion is you take your intolerant, small-minded attitude and leave.

Please, quit misquoting me. I said, "I cannot stand the atheists who slander God's name".

QuoteCan you stand people who like bands other than your favorite?

Just don't play it around me. If I don't buy it or download it.. that means I don't wanna hear it. Plain and simple..

QuoteCan you stand people who like different movies than you?

I could care less about movies. Don't have the time in my life for that..

QuoteCan you stand people who eat different food?

Yes, I can't stand those people who like Pigs feet and Frog guts. That's just gross!

Quote from: "Psalm23"Yes, I guess I do have a problem with Islam. Osama bin Laden could care less if you or I were in those Towers.

Christians come to your front door to be your friend, and show you Salvation. Islam wants your skin burning off your bones. Gee, why does Christianity take so much heat in the atheist crowd?

I have a number of Muslims friends, some so close they're almost like family. None of my friends has ever wanted to burn the skin off my bones or crash a plane into my house. The Muslims I am surrounded by are often more compassionate and friendly than the Christians. You will have a much better life if you could stop assuming and generalizing about people with whom you disagree. It makes you sound ignorant and hateful. Maybe you are. I don't know.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Let's see here. Christmas of 08. an atheist violated the "Freedom of Speech" of the Christians who displayed a Nativity Scene in the Congress Building. He just felt the burning desire to place a huge 10 foot poster next to the scene, "There is no God, or angels, and no baby Jesus". Do you call that atheism, or hatred? Hmm? I mean, come on now, yes, we already know the mind of an atheist.. do you feel the need to display posters during our Holiday? Does that make you feel superior?

Let's see here. Every time I drive on the public roads I have to see crosses, signs telling me that Jesus is the only way to salvation, signs saying (and I'm quoting) "Democrat or Christian - Which are you?", I even get harangued by street-corner preachers every time I walk uptown to get lunch.

Don't talk to atheists about being offended by signs. You'll be crushed by examples, I guarantee it.

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheists are held responsible for every action they make. Just because they live Godless lives.. that doesn't make it 100% fact that God isn't there. Atheists are living a 50/50 chance. And that's that. atheism is nothing but a guess.

No, it doesn't make it 100%. Believing in God doesn't make it 100% he exists, either. Preference does not inform reality. The difference between atheism and theism is that atheism is an educated guess.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't think an atheist should say, "God-dammit, or Christ almighty!" when they are expressing feelings. Why not scream out, "Thor-dammit" or "Allah almighty!"

Again, doesn't matter what you think. Thankfully.

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheists have absolutely zero concern about Satan. No matter how many videos I can show where Satan worshipers are beheading farm animals in the name of Satan.. and yet.. nothing would be said about that. Heck.. 19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

Can you just imagine the explosion of hatred and outrage from atheists if 9-11 was organized by Catholics??!!

Do you know why atheists in the United States don't get too bent out of shape about Islam? Islam is not shoved down our throats every time we turn on the television or step outside our homes. Once over 70% of the people in the country are Muslim, then we'll get upset about it. It's about proximity.

Atheists didn't need to say anything after 9/11. The Christian loonies took care of that for us. Islam is just as much a fantasy as Christianity or Paganism or Sikhism. We deal with proximity.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Please, quit misquoting me. I said, "I cannot stand the atheists who slander God's name".

"For some unknown reason.. the very thought of atheists makes me angry" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2839&p=38316#p38315)

Quote from: "Psalm23"I could care less about movies. Don't have the time in my life for that..

I bet you saw Expelled and the Passion of the Christ, though. Am I right?

Ok.. I've stopped reading this hogwash now. Psalm23 is obviously not being serious and is here simply to goad and annoy. Definitely not here to partake in constructive conversation.

I have better things to do with my time than to read the ramblings of a 'lone crusader'....

 

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"You obviously do have beef with Muslims and Islam. Any cursory glance at your posts will show you have an absolutely bigoted and prejudicial view of both Muslims and their faith.

Yes, I guess I do have a problem with Islam. Osama bin Laden could care less if you or I were in those Towers.

Christians come to your front door to be your friend, and show you Salvation. Islam wants your skin burning off your bones. Gee, why does Christianity take so much heat in the atheist crowd?

QuoteAn important thing about living in a country that values freedoms: your desires are not and should not be others' laws.

Let's see here. Christmas of 08. an atheist violated the "Freedom of Speech" of the Christians who displayed a Nativity Scene in the Congress Building. He just felt the burning desire to place a huge 10 foot poster next to the scene, "There is no God, or angels, and no baby Jesus". Do you call that atheism, or hatred? Hmm? I mean, come on now, yes, we already know the mind of an atheist.. do you feel the need to display posters during our Holiday? Does that make you feel superior?

QuoteYou must have missed my post about Darth Vader (and SSY's devastating response   ). Atheists are not held to the same spiritual or religious laws as those who follow the faiths. This is true in the same vein as it is true that welders do not need to follow the same rules or regulations as dentists: they simply do not apply.

atheists are held responsible for every action they make. Just because they live Godless lives.. that doesn't make it 100% fact that God isn't there. Atheists are living a 50/50 chance. And that's that. atheism is nothing but a guess.

QuoteYou think it's not okay to not believe in a god or to "slander" that god's name (though how you can slander the name of a fictional character, I'm not sure; are there legal precedents for that?). Thankfully for everyone else who doesn't think like you, it doesn't matter what you think.

I don't think an atheist should say, "God-dammit, or Christ almighty!" when they are expressing feelings. Why not scream out, "Thor-dammit" or "Allah almighty!"

QuoteAtheists don't spend time and effort helping people get over their Satan delusions because ... well, it's like raising millions of dollars for people who don't like the musical Hair: pointless and a waste of resources.

atheists have absolutely zero concern about Satan. No matter how many videos I can show where Satan worshipers are beheading farm animals in the name of Satan.. and yet.. nothing would be said about that. Heck.. 19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

Can you just imagine the explosion of hatred and outrage from atheists if 9-11 was organized by Catholics??!!

QuoteYou've admitted that you can't stand atheists, the way they think, and how they live. My suggestion is you take your intolerant, small-minded attitude and leave.

Please, quit misquoting me. I said, "I cannot stand the atheists who slander God's name".

QuoteCan you stand people who like bands other than your favorite?

Just don't play it around me. If I don't buy it or download it.. that means I don't wanna hear it. Plain and simple..

QuoteCan you stand people who like different movies than you?

I could care less about movies. Don't have the time in my life for that..

QuoteCan you stand people who eat different food?

Yes, I can't stand those people who like Pigs feet and Frog guts. That's just gross!

Curio took care of most of your most recent post quite well I would howevr like to adress 2 points.

First placing a sign next to but not directly interfering in anyway with the nativity scene is NOT in any way interfereing with someone's freedom of speach. They are however expressing thir own freedom of speach in a legal way or I'm sure it being a federal building it would have beed stopped imediatly.

Second the reason Atheists don't make anti-Satan slogans is we don't believe in a god or in any gods. You have a habit of making assumptions, Which I tried to help you with, I obviously failed. Your assumption is that we are specificly speaking of your god, instead of all gods. God is NOT the Christian god's name.God is a reference term for a super natural being. Yahwey is the Judeo-Christian gods name. The phrase "there probably is no god" refers to all supernatural beings, including Satan.

I was thinking about this this morning....Seems it is innate in many to worship something or someone.....Look at the movie stars, sports figures, rock stars so many worship.....It is a penomenon in the human condition, it seems......I never worshipped anyone, though....LOL!....I do respect some people, though....There is a difference.

Quote from: "Lilbeth"I was thinking about this this morning....Seems it is innate in many to worship something or someone.....Look at the movie stars, sports figures, rock stars so many worship.....It is a penomenon in the human condition, it seems......I never worshipped anyone, though....LOL!....I do respect some people, though....There is a difference.

Leaders and followers, basically. Christians are sheep, remember?  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Yes, I guess I do have a problem with Islam. Osama bin Laden could care less if you or I were in those Towers.

Christians come to your front door to be your friend, and show you Salvation. Islam wants your skin burning off your bones. Gee, why does Christianity take so much heat in the atheist crowd?

I have a number of Muslims friends, some so close they're almost like family. None of my friends has ever wanted to burn the skin off my bones or crash a plane into my house. The Muslims I am surrounded by are often more compassionate and friendly than the Christians. You will have a much better life if you could stop assuming and generalizing about people with whom you disagree. It makes you sound ignorant and hateful. Maybe you are. I don't know.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Let's see here. Christmas of 08. an atheist violated the "Freedom of Speech" of the Christians who displayed a Nativity Scene in the Congress Building. He just felt the burning desire to place a huge 10 foot poster next to the scene, "There is no God, or angels, and no baby Jesus". Do you call that atheism, or hatred? Hmm? I mean, come on now, yes, we already know the mind of an atheist.. do you feel the need to display posters during our Holiday? Does that make you feel superior?

Let's see here. Every time I drive on the public roads I have to see crosses, signs telling me that Jesus is the only way to salvation, signs saying (and I'm quoting) "Democrat or Christian - Which are you?", I even get harangued by street-corner preachers every time I walk uptown to get lunch.

Don't talk to atheists about being offended by signs. You'll be crushed by examples, I guarantee it.

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheists are held responsible for every action they make. Just because they live Godless lives.. that doesn't make it 100% fact that God isn't there. Atheists are living a 50/50 chance. And that's that. atheism is nothing but a guess.

No, it doesn't make it 100%. Believing in God doesn't make it 100% he exists, either. Preference does not inform reality. The difference between atheism and theism is that atheism is an educated guess.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't think an atheist should say, "God-dammit, or Christ almighty!" when they are expressing feelings. Why not scream out, "Thor-dammit" or "Allah almighty!"

Again, doesn't matter what you think. Thankfully.

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheists have absolutely zero concern about Satan. No matter how many videos I can show where Satan worshipers are beheading farm animals in the name of Satan.. and yet.. nothing would be said about that. Heck.. 19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

Can you just imagine the explosion of hatred and outrage from atheists if 9-11 was organized by Catholics??!!

Do you know why atheists in the United States don't get too bent out of shape about Islam? Islam is not shoved down our throats every time we turn on the television or step outside our homes. Once over 70% of the people in the country are Muslim, then we'll get upset about it. It's about proximity.

Atheists didn't need to say anything after 9/11. The Christian loonies took care of that for us. Islam is just as much a fantasy as Christianity or Paganism or Sikhism. We deal with proximity.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Please, quit misquoting me. I said, "I cannot stand the atheists who slander God's name".

"For some unknown reason.. the very thought of atheists makes me angry" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2839&p=38316#p38315)

Quote from: "Psalm23"I could care less about movies. Don't have the time in my life for that..

I bet you saw Expelled and the Passion of the Christ, though. Am I right?

Great response to all of the points, Curiosity.  It's just unfortunate that Psalm23 is likely going to keep ignoring the counter-points that are continually being made.

Quote from: "Twiddler"Great response to all of the points, Curiosity.  It's just unfortunate that Psalm23 is likely going to keep ignoring the counter-points that are continually being made.

Oh, I'm well aware. I was just bored. It's as much an exercise in crystallizing my own thoughts as it is refuting his/hers. Kind of like shadow-boxing, you know?  

Yeah, Curio...I know.....Nietzsche's slave/master mentalities.....I have never been a follower......don't have that mentality......

Quote from: "Psalm23"Heck.. 19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

Nothing was said???!!!???  

Where on earth were you hiding when 9/11 happened?  Because I sure remember getting mighty upset about Islam at that point.  You keep conveniently forgetting the ever-so-popular-in-the-atheist-world image of the world trade centers standing with the words "Imagine No Religion" on top of it.

I also call to your attention this thread which links to a fun video of Dawkins attempting to reason with a Muslim.  http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2046 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2046)

Why do you ignore everything everyone says in response to you, Psalm23?  Is it because we aren't all Christian fundamentalists here and thus aren't deserving of your notice or respect?

Psalm23, I think you'll find some Islamic atheists here:  http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/)

This, and many other English speaking atheist forums, are largely composed of members from the Western world.  We don't often bring up Islam simply because it is not something which affects our daily lives.  That said, Islam has been discussed on this forum and you are welcome to do a search to see what was discussed.  Don't allow yourself to be willfully ignorant.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"You keep conveniently forgetting the ever-so-popular-in-the-atheist-world image of the world trade centers standing with the words "Imagine No Religion" on top of it.

Off topic, but while we're on the topic of Islam supposedly getting a free pass, I direct your attention to Pat Condell who you can look up on YouTube and is absolutely livid about Islamic extremists and the pass they get from his government and others.  He does speak about Christians, but rarely now.  They don't mess things up too much in Great Britain.

He's witty, but spiteful.  Still, he'd never with death on anyone, and he doesn't even want anyone silenced, just crazy legislation, like the approval of Sharia Law, shot down as it should be instead of given a pass in the interest of political correctness or some misplaced fear of doing wrong by Islam.

Here in the West-Europe the atheists speak more out against Muslims than Christians. Reason for this is that f.e. in a country like the Netherlands there are more Muslims than evangelical Christians. We fight the more fundamental Muslims because they want to turn our country into a Muslim nation, with Muslim laws (like the Sharia) and rules (women should be separated from men). To be honest, I don't see so much difference between a fundamental Muslim  here in western Europe and an evangelical Christian in America. Both are intolerant and want make this planet a bad place to live on.

Quote from: "Tom62"Here in the West-Europe the atheists speak more out against Muslims than Christians. Reason for this is that f.e. in a country like the Netherlands there are more Muslims than evangelical Christians. We fight the more fundamental Muslims because they want to turn our country into a Muslim nation, with Muslim laws (like the Sharia) and rules (women should be separated from men). To be honest, I don't see so much difference between a fundamental Muslim  here in western Europe and an evangelical Christian in America. Both are intolerant and want make this planet a bad place to live on.

What was the name of the Dutch guy who was murdered by islamic extremists in the Netherlands? I completely agree with you Tom62. There is no real difference between a fundamental muslim here and an evangelical christian in the US. Their beliefs may differ slightly in wordage but they are both as rabidly insane as each other.

Psalm23, you only need to search for Geert Wilders on youtube to see how radical islam is hurting European nations - especially the Netherlands. I have a great deal of respect for Geert Wilders.

I think you were referring to the murder of Theo Vangogh - the film maker?

Quote from: "Sorz"I think you were referring to the murder of Theo Vangogh - the film maker?

Ah, thanks. He wasn't a politician then.

Quote from: "Sorz"I think you were referring to the murder of Theo Vangogh - the film maker?

That was close, but the Dutch spelling of his name is Theo van Gogh. He was killed for making a short film called "Submission" (screenplay by Aryaan Hirsi Ali), that attacked the mistreatment of women in the Islam. It might be interesting to know that Theo van Gogh was related to the famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh.

Quote from: "Tom62"He was killed for making a short film called "Submission" (screenplay by Aryaan Hirsi Ali), that attacked the mistreatment of women in the Islam.

Close, but her name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "Tom62"He was killed for making a short film called "Submission" (screenplay by Aryaan Hirsi Ali), that attacked the mistreatment of women in the Islam.

Close, but her name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  ;) . My fingers are faster than my brain.

Quote from: "Whitney"Psalm23, I think you'll find some Islamic atheists here:  http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/)

This, and many other English speaking atheist forums, are largely composed of members from the Western world.  We don't often bring up Islam simply because it is not something which affects our daily lives.  That said, Islam has been discussed on this forum and you are welcome to do a search to see what was discussed.  Don't allow yourself to be willfully ignorant.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"You keep conveniently forgetting the ever-so-popular-in-the-atheist-world image of the world trade centers standing with the words "Imagine No Religion" on top of it.

I like your little photo of the Twin Towers, but you do realize that radicals collapsed the Towers, and not religion?

Radicals twist scripture more than anyone I know to justify their hatred!

For example.. the Klu Klux Klan.. are they really true followers of Jesus?
The NEO-NAZI Skin-heads? Are they actually followers of Jesus?

Did Jesus teach a loving or hateful word?

I don't recall Jesus telling his Disciples to hate someone because of the "color of their skin.."

You said "Islam does not interfere with your daily life?" Do you know Islamic Radicals in the Middle East are spreading their twisted ideas right into American soil?

Quote from: "Psalm23"You said "Islam does not interfere with your daily life?" Do you know Islamic Radicals in the Middle East are spreading their twisted ideas right into American soil?

Do you know what "daily life" means?

Without religion there could be no religious radicals.  Wasn't the whole conversation about Islam related to YOUR stereoptying all Muslims as acting like radicals and YOUR complaining that atheists never say anything bad about Islam?

Quote from: "Psalm23"Islam wants your skin burning off your bones. Gee, why does Christianity take so much heat in the atheist crowd?  

Quote from: "Psalm23"19 Muslims flew 2 airplanes into the Trade Centers.. and nothing was said. God-Forbid anyone disses Islam. atheists only target the Christian-God.

So, do your most current comments mean you have changed your mind?

Quote from: "Psalm23"I like your little photo of the Twin Towers, but you do realize that radicals collapsed the Towers, and not religion?

Quote from: "Psalm23"You said "Islam does not interfere with your daily life?" Do you know Islamic Radicals in the Middle East are spreading their twisted ideas right into American soil?

That last time I checked, there weren't many Muslims trying to force their views onto American politics.  Many of them came here because they value the concept of freedom...even if it means letting other people do things they don't care for.  I can't say this is a common view for American Christians who think everyone must act like them or be shut down.

Hate to break it to ya Psalm, but: Muslim God = Christian God = Jewish God.

Same guy.

Quote from: "Whitney"That last time I checked, there weren't many Muslims trying to force their views onto American politics.  Many of them came here because they value the concept of freedom...even if it means letting other people do things they don't care for.  I can't say this is a common view for American Christians who think everyone must act like them or be shut down.

Whitney, The last time I checked.. Muslims are training in caves all across Afghanistan to defeat the American way of life.

Did you know 9 Egyptians crossed into American soil back in 2005.. but only 4 of them were captured? There are 5 Egyptians running free within America as we speak. These men are radicals, and they strongly believe detonating a car bomb for Allah is their fate in this life.

Christians spread the Good news by knocking on your front door.
Muslims want to spread the Qu'ran by exploding cars in your City..

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Hate to break it to ya Psalm, but: Muslim God = Christian God = Jewish God.

Same guy.

Would you be willing to visit Iran or Syria and tell those Muslims what you just said? I bet they will disagree with you. The Muslims forbid the Jews.. they want to vaporize Israel off the map once and for all!

the Iranian President has called Israel, "A stinking corpse that needs to be destroyed."

Keep in mind, this is coming from the same guy who now has Nuclear bombs in his arsenal..

just keep watching the Middle East.. it will become a huge ball of fire just as God promised 3,000 years ago..

"Their tongues willl melt in their mouth, their flesh will melt as they stand on their feet, and their eyeballs will melt in their sockets.." - GOD

This is the perfect description of a nuclear blast..

Quote from: "Psalm23"Would you be willing to visit Iran or Syria and tell those Muslims what you just said? I bet they will disagree with you. The Muslims forbid the Jews.. they want to vaporize Israel off the map once and for all!

the Iranian President has called Israel, "A stinking corpse that needs to be destroyed."

Keep in mind, this is coming from the same guy who now has Nuclear bombs in his arsenal..

just keep watching the Middle East.. it will become a huge ball of fire just as God promised 3,000 years ago..

"Their tongues willl melt in their mouth, their flesh will melt as they stand on their feet, and their eyeballs will melt in their sockets.." - GOD

This is the perfect description of a nuclear blast..

Okay, I'm done. For real this time. If you really, really believe the things you've said in this thread and on this forum, I just might be tempted to pray for you, as you are obviously a sad, ignorant human being. On the otherhand, if you're just trolling and playing in an imaginary sandbox, you need a hobby.

Either way, I'm done. I suggest everyone else do the same.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Okay, I'm done. For real this time. If you really, really believe the things you've said in this thread and on this forum, I just might be tempted to pray for you, as you are obviously a sad, ignorant human being. On the otherhand, if you're just trolling and playing in an imaginary sandbox, you need a hobby.

Either way, I'm done. I suggest everyone else do the same.

Yes! I am very for real! This is the end of the world the Bible warns us about. Jesus said "watch for these signs!"

You can pray for me if you wish, but I would like to know who you are praying to?

If you are praying to the Jewish/Christian God.. please.. don't waste your breath.. he doesn't believe in you.

When Iran finally presses the button.. you will say, "damn, that Psalm 23 guy was right all along!!"

This is the end of time, my friend.. just read the bible.. everything we are seeing was foretold thousands of years ago!!

People have been waiting for the world to end since it started, every century a large mass of people is absolutely convinced they are living in 'end times'. My personal hope is that with all of the 2012 hysteria, a lot of morons will go drink magic koolaid in a cave to avoid the 'tribulation' or whatever, and then in 2013 the world is somewhat smarter. Darwin wins :o

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"People have been waiting for the world to end since it started, every century a large mass of people is absolutely convinced they are living in 'end times'. My personal hope is that with all of the 2012 hysteria, a lot of morons will go drink magic koolaid in a cave to avoid the 'tribulation' or whatever, and then in 2013 the world is somewhat smarter. Darwin wins :o

I agree with you 1000%!! Christians have been predicting the "end of the world" since the day Jesus said "I shall return!"

but one thing these Christians are missing!! Jesus said, "No one knows of that Day or Hour, Not the Angels, not even the Son, but only the Father knows of that Day". Christians can decipher any date they want, but only God knows when the End will take place. Jesus told us to "be aware of the signs of the time.."

I strongly believe we are seeing the "beginnings of Sorrows" Jesus talked about.. Just take a look at the World. It's in complete chaos and ruins as we speak.. Global terrorism, natural disasters are increasing and intensifying, worldwide diseases are at an alarming rate..

“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”
-- Robert Heinlein

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Hate to break it to ya Psalm, but: Muslim God = Christian God = Jewish God.

Same guy.

Would you be willing to visit Iran or Syria and tell those Muslims what you just said? I bet they will disagree with you. The Muslims forbid the Jews.. they want to vaporize Israel off the map once and for all!

the Iranian President has called Israel, "A stinking corpse that needs to be destroyed."

Keep in mind, this is coming from the same guy who now has Nuclear bombs in his arsenal..

just keep watching the Middle East.. it will become a huge ball of fire just as God promised 3,000 years ago..

"Their tongues willl melt in their mouth, their flesh will melt as they stand on their feet, and their eyeballs will melt in their sockets.." - GOD

This is the perfect description of a nuclear blast..

It is VERY obvious that you know nothing about Islam and I would be extremly surprised if you had even met a Muslim. I have met THOUSANDS. Christianity's god is a shism of Judeaism, and Islam is a Shism of those two. Both the Bible and the Torah are holy books in Islam. You are a VERY ignorant person which isn't really a bad thing. What is bad is that you seen to revel in your ignorance, take pride in it even. I truly think it's people like you who are at the core of what is wrong with religion in general and Christianity in specific. Please try to learn from your holy book and learn some tolerance, love of thy neighbor, turning the cheek, and acceptance. You have suceed in one thing in your time on this forum I didn't think it was possible but you have actually turned us even further from religion. Congadulations, your ignorance, fear, hate, and pure stupidity have made us more resolute Atheists. Your whitnessing has faild, not just faild but had the reverse effect, how sad is that. I am now done feeding this troll.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Did you know 9 Egyptians crossed into American soil back in 2005.. but only 4 of them were captured? There are 5 Egyptians running free within America as we speak. These men are radicals, and they strongly believe detonating a car bomb for Allah is their fate in this life.

Christians spread the Good news by knocking on your front door.
Muslims want to spread the Qu'ran by exploding cars in your City..

[sarcasim]I guess you must be implying that Muslims are far more intelligent than Christians since it would only take 5 of them to bring down America whereas numerous abortion clinic bombing Christian groups have not been able to make an impact on abortion policy. [/sarcasim]

I have lived and worked closely with Muslims since college; they aren't much different than you or I.  Believe it or not, not a single one of them made an attempt to convert me.  So, again, there are not enough radicals to make a significant impact on my daily life.  Sporadically located small radical groups exist in the form of Christian cults...yet none of us are worried about them sucessfully spreading their views all over the world.

Quote from: "joeactor"“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”
-- Robert Heinlein

I agree with this sentiment.  This quote from Heinlein is a corollary of an earlier and equally apposite quote from George Bernard Shaw:


"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
--GBS

These quotes are not intended to imply that the OP is of the porcine persuasion. (At least I don't think so, knowing that joeactor is invariably polite, I make that assumption, and I speak for myself regarding my own intentions.)  But they both speak to a certain sense of futility regarding any further attempts to engage in meaningful dialog.  In my only previous reply to Psalm23, I said that if he tried (and perhaps asked Jesus for help) he could come up with an even more absurd argument than the one that he called "...by far the most absurd argument ever displayed."  He has indeed managed to do so.  Not just once, but several times.  I knew he could!

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "joeactor"“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”
-- Robert Heinlein

I agree with this sentiment.  This quote from Heinlein is a corollary of an earlier and equally apposite quote from George Bernard Shaw:
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
--GBS

Nice GBS quote...

I posted the Heinlein quote, really, for both sides.
At some point in a conversation, you just have to realize that the other side is never going to see it your way.

Here's one more quote for the fire:
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
Joshua (the WOPR computer) from War Games (1983)

Quote from: "Tanker"It is VERY obvious that you know nothing about Islam and I would be extremly surprised if you had even met a Muslim. I have met THOUSANDS. Christianity's god is a shism of Judeaism, and Islam is a Shism of those two. Both the Bible and the Torah are holy books in Islam. You are a VERY ignorant person which isn't really a bad thing. What is bad is that you seen to revel in your ignorance, take pride in it even. I truly think it's people like you who are at the core of what is wrong with religion in general and Christianity in specific. Please try to learn from your holy book and learn some tolerance, love of thy neighbor, turning the cheek, and acceptance. You have suceed in one thing in your time on this forum I didn't think it was possible but you have actually turned us even further from religion. Congadulations, your ignorance, fear, hate, and pure stupidity have made us more resolute Atheists. Your whitnessing has faild, not just faild but had the reverse effect, how sad is that. I am now done feeding this troll.

I have met plenty of Muslims.. and they want nothing to do with the Jewish God. And they also believe the Christian Holy Trinity is "the Father, the Mother of Isa, and the Holy Ghost" This is what the Qu'ran teaches it's believers.

Everyone knows the Christian Trinity is "the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost".

I think you calling me stupid is way out of line.. especially coming from someone who can't even correctly spell "congratulations".

You have called me "Ignorant, stupid, hateful, fearful all in one post.

It's non-believers such as yourself that are giving atheists a horrible name.

Name calling and ignorant remarks does not resolve a dispute in religious debating..

By the way.. Christianity's God is Jesus Christ. The most loving and compassionate God to ever walk the Earth.
All he asks is just believe. nothing more, nothing less.. why is that so hard for some people? (atheists)

QuotePlease try to learn from your holy book and learn some tolerance, love of thy neighbor, turning the cheek, and acceptance. You have suceed in one thing in your time on this forum I didn't think it was possible but you have actually turned us even further from religion.

I like this part from atheists.. they always like to use Bible verses when it suits their arguement.

Here's the famous atheist arguement.. which it doesn't work with me.. I'm onto you guys >>

When a Christian acts hateful.. the atheists will say.. "The Bible teaches love".

but when a Christian acts with love.. then the atheists will say; "the Bible teaches hate."

I usually ignore those atheists who don't have a clue what they are talking about..

Ok....No more calling each other stupid or other derogatory names.

Pslam, remember you are supposed to be trying not to stereotype atheists for reasons  already explained at length elsewhere.  Don't just cling on to the one person who used a couple derogatory remarks in response to your derogatory remarks towards Islam.

Quote from: "Psalm23"By the way.. Christianity's God is Jesus Christ. The most loving and compassionate God to ever walk the Earth.
All he asks is just believe. nothing more, nothing less.. why is that so hard for some people? (atheists)

Because it's a fairy tale.

Oh, and this sure seems like preaching again.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Here's the famous atheist arguement.. which it doesn't work with me.. I'm onto you guys >>

When a Christian acts hateful.. the atheists will say.. "The Bible teaches love".

but when a Christian acts with love.. then the atheists will say; "the Bible teaches hate." ;) . Only on this forum, I've met some Christians who are really angry and hateful towards atheists, that I have to say "Sorry guys, but doesn't your Jesus in your Bible teaches love?".

Quote from: "Psalm23"By the way.. Christianity's God is Jesus Christ. The most loving and compassionate God to ever walk the Earth.
All he asks is just believe. nothing more, nothing less.. why is that so hard for some people? (atheists)

Excellent argument.  It really is.  Just give in.  It's that easy!  In fact, make sure that we all donate our life savings to Jesus after we give in.  He would really like it.

Umm... this is highly unproductive. Is there any reason why Psalm has not been banned yet?

Quote from: "Sophus"Umm... this is highly unproductive. Is there any reason why Psalm has not been banned yet?

I think Psalm has left on his/her own.  

If you haven't already, please look at the rules section for the banning procedures.  They were created to make the banning process more orderly.  Psalm was here for a while when we put together the procedures and as a result is only on strike 1.

Nothing in the original article leads me to conclude that the followers of Jesus at that church actually worshipped him. And, indeed, actually worship (first referring to him as Lord and then eventually equating him with god itself) came later.

Quote from: "Sophus"Umm... this is highly unproductive. Is there any reason why Psalm has not been banned yet?

Banned for what? Discussing religion in a religious forum? lol.

come on.. play fair, children..

Quote from: "Psalm23"come on.. play fair, children..

Cute from someone who voluntarily calls himself a sheep.