Happy Atheist Forum

Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Many years latter, some humans developed ways to understand reality. They set criteria, and methodology to make clear distinctions between facts and myths. These humans developed processes and tools to analyze Earth as well as the universe. These humans named their invention: “science”. But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made. Science was all they had.

These self-limited humans say that if the Creator is going to believed, He has to fit in science. They did not only become slaves of their own creation, they also want to place the Almighty Creator under the yoke they put on themselves.

The Loving Almighty Creator is willing to let these humans have a relationship with Him, but it can not be under their rules. The Loving Almighty Creator can not be a slave of humans, and, obviously, can not become a slave of any human invention.

Some of these humans ask the Creator to make Himself a slave of their rules, so they can see Him. The Loving Almighty Creator wants to set them free of their yoke, but that has to be done under His Way. The very first thing they need is simple, it is called “Faith”.

“But we do not want to loose our science!”- they claim.
“You will not loose science” â€"Creator says, you will be set FREE.
“Free of what?” â€" Humans say.
“Free of the all the yokes you created for yourselves”- the Creator says
“All I have is science, and it is good” â€" humans reply
“Science is good” â€"Creator answers - “But, don’t be a slave of your own rules. You won’t loose science, in instead, you will be able to see and have more things. You will be ASTONISHED”.

Some humans still fear the yoke of the piece of wood they made.

Some humans are still under the yoke of the scientific rules they made.

Some humans are still under many different kinds of yokes.

Some humans are Free, to use wood, to develop knowledge, to use and enjoy science, and also to have a loving relation with the Creator. And yes, they are astonished.
Jesus can set you free.

Wait for it...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages15.fotki.com%2Fv229%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2FKitten_judges_distance-vi.gif&hash=a8a0fafe08c7aa8e5c0d18735142f6a47c2cf536)

Oh, and I thought this would be relevant:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages49.fotki.com%2Fv1459%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6145789%2Fidentifywood746327-vi.jpg&hash=06d649d5fb9c1af23dc8929e959da94e1641403e)

(Ah, jeeze... am I flaming? I hope maestro isn't going to be mad at me, again!   )

The wood thing really cracked me up. "Yep, it's wood". I just about died. I'm still laughing.

Quote from: "forevernewton"Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Many years latter, some humans developed ways to understand reality. They set criteria, and methodology to make clear distinctions between facts and myths. These humans developed processes and tools to analyze Earth as well as the universe. These humans named their invention: “science”. But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made. Science was all they had.

Wow, you were doing pretty well until you got to this point.

Quote from: "forevernewton"But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made.

Then your story (which sounded quite a bit like a second grade teacher reading to her class) veered off the road like Ted Kennedy after a party.

Beginning with "But instead of..." and going right to the end, your story becomes total drivel. It shows several things: lack of understanding of science, how it's used, why it's used, lack of understanding of your own faith, lack of understanding of this forum and the rules. I say that last part, because you dove right into preaching and evangelizing. Big no-no. Read the forum rules. There is a section for that, and it is not "Science".

Try again, maybe this time with an introduction of yourself, why you're here, etc. You might receive a welcome that doesn't look like this:  

Quote from: "forevernewton"The Loving Almighty Creator is willing to let these humans have a relationship with Him, but it can not be under their rules. The Loving Almighty Creator can not be a slave of humans, and, obviously, can not become a slave of any human invention.


Some humans still fear the yoke of the piece of wood they made.

Some humans are still under the yoke of the scientific rules they made.

Some humans are still under many different kinds of yokes.

Some humans are Free, to use wood, to develop knowledge, to use and enjoy science, and also to have a loving relation with the Creator. And yes, they are astonished.
Jesus can set you free.

Like I said, this part belongs in a different part of the forum.

@ OP, If this thread is an argument for the synthesis of belief and science or belief over science or anything of the like, it doesn't belong in the science forum but rather the religion forum.

Not a good start. At all.

Quote from: "forevernewton"Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Then, they realized that wood was just a material and that fire wasn't a god so they decided that other things that mystified them like thunder and the sun must be gods.

Eventually, they learned that thunder was just a natural phenomenon and that the sun was a star rather than a god.  Because people eventually figured out that everything they could examine with their five senses inevitably turned out to be something explainable in the long run the people who had believed otherwise had felt stupid so they decided that something imperceptible must be a god.  They did this because they knew it was a choice that no one could disprove by discovering something new.  They felt they would never need to feel stupid about slapping the idea of god onto unexplainable phenomena again.  Then, they encountered logic and probability and common sense.  

To combat that, they decided to shut their eyes tightly stick their fingers into their ears and scream at everyone who came near, "GOD DID IT, GOD DID IT ALL!!!!!"  They also blindfolded their children with pages from an ancient scroll and glued bits of cotton and oral traditions into their childrens' ears for the same purpose and devised a system (called religion) to communicate only those things that would keep them ignorant of anything but those beliefs.  Sometimes, these children picked at the blindfolds and the bits of cotton and their parents would punish them.  But once they became adults, some of these children extracted the earplugs and the blindfolds and saw their parents rushing around blindly and looked at them with love and sadness.

These children noticed with their new found sight that there were wonders in the universe and amazing truths.  So they created something called science and used it for the benefit of all, even the blindly flailing people who often struck out at them because they couldn't see they were trying to help them but thought they were instead attacking them.  

I think my myth is far more interesting than forevernewton's

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I think my myth is far more interesting than forevernewton's

So do I.  

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "forevernewton"Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Many years latter, some humans developed ways to understand reality. They set criteria, and methodology to make clear distinctions between facts and myths. These humans developed processes and tools to analyze Earth as well as the universe. These humans named their invention: “science”. But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made. Science was all they had.

Wow, you were doing pretty well until you got to this point.

Quote from: "forevernewton"But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made.

Then your story (which sounded quite a bit like a second grade teacher reading to her class) veered off the road like Ted Kennedy after a party.

Beginning with "But instead of..." and going right to the end, your story becomes total drivel. It shows several things: lack of understanding of science, how it's used, why it's used, lack of understanding of your own faith, lack of understanding of this forum and the rules. I say that last part, because you dove right into preaching and evangelizing. Big no-no. Read the forum rules. There is a section for that, and it is not "Science".

Try again, maybe this time with an introduction of yourself, why you're here, etc. You might receive a welcome that doesn't look like this:  

Quote from: "forevernewton"The Loving Almighty Creator is willing to let these humans have a relationship with Him, but it can not be under their rules. The Loving Almighty Creator can not be a slave of humans, and, obviously, can not become a slave of any human invention.


Some humans still fear the yoke of the piece of wood they made.

Some humans are still under the yoke of the scientific rules they made.

Some humans are still under many different kinds of yokes.

Some humans are Free, to use wood, to develop knowledge, to use and enjoy science, and also to have a loving relation with the Creator. And yes, they are astonished.
Jesus can set you free.

Like I said, this part belongs in a different part of the forum.

Hello McQ!

Well, if I tell I am Spanish, would yu forgive my "low writting level?"
And yes, I should have put this under religion.

Thanks!

For Ever Newton

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Not a good start. At all.

Oh, man!
I am going down!!! Ups!

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "forevernewton"Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Then, they realized that wood was just a material and that fire wasn't a god so they decided that other things that mystified them like thunder and the sun must be gods.

Eventually, they learned that thunder was just a natural phenomenon and that the sun was a star rather than a god.  Because people eventually figured out that everything they could examine with their five senses inevitably turned out to be something explainable in the long run the people who had believed otherwise had felt stupid so they decided that something imperceptible must be a god.  They did this because they knew it was a choice that no one could disprove by discovering something new.  They felt they would never need to feel stupid about slapping the idea of god onto unexplainable phenomena again.  Then, they encountered logic and probability and common sense.  

To combat that, they decided to shut their eyes tightly stick their fingers into their ears and scream at everyone who came near, "GOD DID IT, GOD DID IT ALL!!!!!"  They also blindfolded their children with pages from an ancient scroll and glued bits of cotton and oral traditions into their childrens' ears for the same purpose and devised a system (called religion) to communicate only those things that would keep them ignorant of anything but those beliefs.  Sometimes, these children picked at the blindfolds and the bits of cotton and their parents would punish them.  But once they became adults, some of these children extracted the earplugs and the blindfolds and saw their parents rushing around blindly and looked at them with love and sadness.

These children noticed with their new found sight that there were wonders in the universe and amazing truths.  So they created something called science and used it for the benefit of all, even the blindly flailing people who often struck out at them because they couldn't see they were trying to help them but thought they were instead attacking them.  

I think my myth is far more interesting than forevernewton's

Hey! Every single person is corret, my English Writing sucks!!!  There is a huge gap from my post to your post.  Mmm... ostia!!!

A christian, telling people to be freed from the shackles of ideological dogma, this man has the keenest wit I have ever had the pleasure of observing.

Long time ago some humans were using wood. Some wood was used to make fire, some wood was used to make tools, and with an extra piece of wood these humans decided to make an idol, which they called “god”. They began to fear and “obey” that “god”. In stead of simply apply the wood for the good of humans and their environment, they placed themselves under the wood-idol and became limited slaves of what they had made.

Many years latter, some humans developed ways to understand reality. They set criteria, and methodology to make clear distinctions between facts and myths. These humans developed processes and tools to analyze Earth as well as the universe. These humans named their invention: “science”. But, in stead of simply use science for the good of humans and their environment, part of those humans placed themselves under the science and became limited slaves of the very thing they had made. Science was all they had.

These self-limited humans say that if the Creator is going to believed, He has to fit in science. They did not only become slaves of their own creation, they also want to place the Almighty Creator under the yoke they put on themselves.

The Loving Almighty Creator is willing to let these humans have a relationship with Him, but it can not be under their rules. The Loving Almighty Creator can not be a slave of humans, and, obviously, can not become a slave of any human invention.

Some of these humans ask the Creator to make Himself a slave of their rules, so they can see Him. The Loving Almighty Creator wants to set them free of their yoke, but that has to be done under His Way. The very first thing they need is simple, it is called “Faith”.

“But we do not want to loose our science!”- they claim.
“You will not loose science” â€"Creator says, you will be set FREE.
“Free of what?” â€" Humans say.
“Free of the all the yokes you created for yourselves”- the Creator says
“All I have is science, and it is good” â€" humans reply
“Science is good” â€"Creator answers - “But, don’t be a slave of your own rules. You won’t loose science, instead, you will be able to see and have even more things. You will be ASTONISHED”.

Some humans still fear the yoke of the piece of wood they made.

Some humans are still under the yoke of the scientific rules they made.

Some humans are still under many different kinds of yokes.

Some humans are Free, to use wood, to develop knowledge, to use and enjoy science, and also to have a loving relation with the Creator. And yes, they are astonished.
-----------------------------------------
Jesus can set you free. If you ever feel tired of carrying your yoke, the LOVING CREATOR will be there for you, and will make a party to celebrate your freedom.

Yeah... too bad science killed God.

Faith is an antonym of scientific thinking - they don't mix well.

Quote from: "Sophus"Yeah... too bad science killed God.

Faith is an antonym of scientific thinking - they don't mix well.

But I have both! and it is way too cool!

By the way, if god does not exist... how come science killed him? And who or what is science? How something you can not see or touch can kill something that does not exist?

It is a joke. Do not bother replying, I am just playing to give arguments like the ones from the atheists.

And I think I know what you mean. Science and Faith are opposites, so, if you have one "the other dies".

Now, again: I have both.
And it feel great to be embraced by the Creator!!!

Quote from: "forevernewton"-----------------------------------------
Jesus can set you free. If you ever feel tired of carrying your yoke, the LOVING CREATOR will be there for you, and will make a party to celebrate your freedom.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi144.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr163%2FInsultComicDog%2Fcat_barfed.jpg%3Ft%3D1237667140&hash=141b744bb303cb0acdfd64531749e89de7c8ff3c)

Quote from: "forevernewton"How something you can not see or touch can kill something that does not exist?

Very carefully.

Quote from: "forevernewton"Now, again: I have both.

Lets say you are doing an experiment, measuring the time it takes for a ball to hit the ground from the top of a tall building.

You sums, based on ball size, wind resistance, ball weight, building height, air viscosity etc etc etc, suggest the ball should hit the ground in 10 seconds. Yet, in all the trials you do, the ball takes 20 seconds to hit the ground. Your imediate reaction is to check the maths and what numbers you put in, but your lab partner, who did most of the sums, asks you to have faith, and just ignore the results.

What would you do?

Quote from: "forevernewton"But I have both! and it is way too cool!

You have scientific knowledge and faith? Okay. You have faith and scientific thinking? Impossible (at least in every aspect of your life). The scientific method demands openness, freed thought, investigating and critical thinking. Freed thought is ambitious and produces change. Faith is static and content. With religion you have to craft ways to defend or justify your beliefs. You have to search not for truth but something that says, "Look, see! I was right!" Deism is different, but that's hardly a faith. At least they don't package God in a box.

Why is it that the believers who come in here and spout the most about science know jack about it? Really? Is it some kind of requirement that these people talk the most about what they know the least?  

Quote from: "McQ"Why is it that the believers who come in here and spout the most about science know jack about it? Really? Is it some kind of requirement that these people talk the most about what they know the least?  

I think that it is probably because of the widespread view that atheists have replaced religion with science, and thus science is the most effective area to engage them on.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "McQ"Why is it that the believers who come in here and spout the most about science know jack about it? Really? Is it some kind of requirement that these people talk the most about what they know the least?  

I think that it is probably because of the widespread view that atheists have replaced religion with science, and thus science is the most effective area to engage them on.

I suppose....but it's really weird.

I can accept (just speaking for me) someone saying, "I can't prove god exists, and I don't think he has to be proven from a scientific standpoint. I just feel a personal spiritualism and a link to something greater than I can understand."

Or along those lines, you know? I mean, I'm married to a person who believes that and it been working out just fine for 25 years.

But trying to argue and say that science (as if science is a thing or belief system) can prove the almighty, or saying the opposite, that science is evil and opposed to god and spirituality....I don't get it.

Quote from: "forevernewton"Hello McQ!

Well, if I tell I am Spanish, would yu forgive my "low writting level?"
And yes, I should have put this under religion.

Thanks!

For Ever Newton

Of course you get leniency if English is not your first language. I never said you didn't. I also never said you have a low writing level. What I said was that you were writing to us like we were in second grade.

A simple introduction from you would have prevented this misunderstanding. That's why we ask people to make introductions and to read the forum rules.

 

Quote from: "McQ"Why is it that the believers who come in here and spout the most about science know jack about it? Really? Is it some kind of requirement that these people talk the most about what they know the least?  

They may know many facts attributed to science, but they do not understand the methodology, or if they do, they don't put it to use.  I used to think I was good at science because I understood the terminology and had a laundry list of facts about astronomy and cosmology memorized.  I could and can even make inferences with this knowledge, but none of this is science.  Science is a reasonable method for gathering knowledge about the universe.  I used to be a smart Christian, but I seldom applied scientifically rigorous thinking in my day-to-day life, and never to my God.  Doing that is often fatal to the concept of God, because you realize that all you have backing it is dogma and desire.

It's true, science can tell us nothing of anything that is truly supernatural.  What of it?  What if I held that Cowboy Land is external to God in the same way God is external to the universe, and that God is the conception of a supernatural cowboy, that conception going on to create this universe as we see it?  We just don't know, and even according to Christians, we can't.  That's why I'm agnostic.  Anything is possible, right down to there not being any physical qualities that govern the universe but it all having been total, random luck up until now, every particle barely moving towards other so it appears there's gravity, fusion in stars being on the lucky whims of protons rather than fusion being truth.  But that's not likely.  And neither is the Christian God, not with the profound lack of evidence and God's attributed qualities.  Ask why enough, and you'll always reach a point in reality where, if the person is being honest, they'll answer "I don't know," and as an agnostic atheist and freethinker, I'm not afraid to say it.

Quote from: "McQ"I can accept (just speaking for me) someone saying, "I can't prove god exists, and I don't think he has to be proven from a scientific standpoint. I just feel a personal spiritualism and a link to something greater than I can understand."

Or along those lines, you know? I mean, I'm married to a person who believes that and it been working out just fine for 25 years.

That's pretty well the standard position in my circles, though it is not a topic that is brought up very often, and I don't talk much about philosophy or science with my friends.

QuoteBut trying to argue and say that science (as if science is a thing or belief system) can prove the almighty, or saying the opposite, that science is evil and opposed to god and spirituality....I don't get it.

Science is kind of a belief system, in a sense. It is a way of thinking, it entails practices, and philosophies, and is really something plenty of people live by. The average atheist isn't a scientist, so it isn't really a belief system, or a way of life for them, but for plenty of scientists and philosophers, I think that it is.

There is nothing inherently negative about having a belief system -- I don't think -- the problem arises when your beliefs are not justified, or false.

I understand both of the positions that you describe. Whether their particular god is capable of being proved or disproved by scientific means depends on how they have defined it, and the same pretty well applies to the other position as well.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Science is kind of a belief system, in a sense. It is a way of thinking, it entails practices, and philosophies, and is really something plenty of people live by. The average atheist isn't a scientist, so it isn't really a belief system, or a way of life for them, but for plenty of scientists and philosophers, I think that it is.

There is nothing inherently negative about having a belief system -- I don't think -- the problem arises when your beliefs are not justified, or false.

I understand both of the positions that you describe. Whether their particular god is capable of being proved or disproved by scientific means depends on how they have defined it, and the same pretty well applies to the other position as well.

Good points, Hitsumei.

Yeah this one's a very difficult topic to discuss because of the definitions that we prepossess. If those aren't made clear, then people may end up disagreeing over something that, fundamentally, they actually agree upon in most ways, yet don't realize. It's so easy to get too simplistic with this and not reason it out or take the time to get on the same page.

For me, since I work every day in a particular area of science (Oncology), I define science less as a belief system and more as a tool. I always have thought of it that way. However, that said, I find that I base much of what I do in other areas of my life on the same scientific methods I use in work, therefore, you might be able to make an argument that it is also my "belief" system.

Don't knock science too much....It has given us antibiotics and modern medicine, space travel, the ability to sit at this computer and chat with anyone in the world who wishes to....blah, blah, blah........
What has religion given us? I am asking.......

Quote from: "Lilbeth"What has religion given us? I am asking.......

Bigots!

 

I detect an unnatural obsession with wood...

Quote from: "Squid"I detect an unnatural obsession with wood... ;) .

forevernewton, your story doesn't make any sense.  The first part was okay and was starting to make sense, however then you made a jump.  You can't tell a story that involves humans creating the god they serve to a story about humans using the science they created as something a real god must conform to.  It also doesn't make sense because I don't think anyone here is claiming that a god must be scientifically valid.  I think most of us would say that science can't be used to prove or disprove a god.  So, basically, you built your own strawman but didn't knock it down all the way.

I can explain further, but decided to keep this short for now.

edit:

"Science limited" and  "Limited by science / (maybe the post belongs here)" have been merged into one thread.  Forevernewton, do not create new threads with the same topic and content when you initially post one in the wrong area.  Moderators can move the thread to appropriate locations.
-admin