Happy Atheist Forum

Eh, I thought that Richard Dawkins was really aggressive in his writing, and it was hard to read.  

Not to mention, some things were just inherently wrong about the book.  For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

topic split from viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2919&start=0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2919&start=0)

Quote from: "Maverick9092"For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

Well, that clears everything up. No wonder people have been looking at me strangely when I punch babies, set kittens on fire and wear my EAT A QUEER FETUS FOR JESUS t-shirt!  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Maverick9092"For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

Well, that clears everything up. No wonder people have been looking at me strangely when I punch babies, set kittens on fire and wear my EAT A QUEER FETUS FOR JESUS t-shirt!  

Well, Christian ideals have been around since the dawn of man.  Henceforth, they've become ingrained on every culture in the world.  You've grown up in that culture without even realizing it.  You may believe that your sense of morality comes from within, but in reality it comes from the culture you've grown up in -- a Christian culture.

Quote from: "Maverick9092"Well, Christian ideals have been around since the dawn of man.  Henceforth, they've become ingrained on every culture in the world.  You've grown up in that culture without even realizing it.  You may believe that your sense of morality comes from within, but in reality it comes from the culture you've grown up in -- a Christian culture.

There's a number of threads around here on this topic. I'll respond and then halt the hijack.

NO.

Morality (loosely defined) has been around since the dawn of civilized man, predating Christianity by thousands of years. Christianity is merely one religion that has tried to co-opt a pre-existing moral landscape and claim it for itself by adding innumerable other arbitrary laws and commandments and requiring those be followed. After all, being the "one true path" is kind of meaningless when you're not exclusive.

I don't believe my morality comes from within. You're assuming entirely too much about atheists, belying your other post about wanting to "discuss" with Chicago-area atheists (after taking them to church with you, it would seem). I grew up in the United States, a (sadly) Christian country, surely. I'm not denying that. What I do deny is that anyone needs Christ to be moral. In fact, if someone needs Christian laws to maintain morality that person is obviously a sociopath.

[/hijack]

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Maverick9092"Well, Christian ideals have been around since the dawn of man.  Henceforth, they've become ingrained on every culture in the world.  You've grown up in that culture without even realizing it.  You may believe that your sense of morality comes from within, but in reality it comes from the culture you've grown up in -- a Christian culture.

There's a number of threads around here on this topic. I'll respond and then halt the hijack.

NO.

Morality (loosely defined) has been around since the dawn of civilized man, predating Christianity by thousands of years. Christianity is merely one religion that has tried to co-opt a pre-existing moral landscape and claim it for itself by adding innumerable other arbitrary laws and commandments and requiring those be followed. After all, being the "one true path" is kind of meaningless when you're not exclusive.

I don't believe my morality comes from within. You're assuming entirely too much about atheists, belying your other post about wanting to "discuss" with Chicago-area atheists (after taking them to church with you, it would seem). I grew up in the United States, a (sadly) Christian country, surely. I'm not denying that. What I do deny is that anyone needs Christ to be moral. In fact, if someone needs Christian laws to maintain morality that person is obviously a sociopath.

[/hijack]

Not to once again hijack this thread, but this doesn't make sense to me.. God has been around since the dawn of time, therefore every religion or higher being before the actual Christian religion is in someway influenced by God.  I don't know, that's just how I see it.

Quote from: "Maverick9092"Not to once again hijack this thread, but this doesn't make sense to me.. God has been around since the dawn of time, therefore every religion or higher being before the actual Christian religion is in someway influenced by God.  I don't know, that's just how I see it.

Then to some extent all religions must be true, and a path to god. As the Daoists say: there is more than one boat that can get you across the river. If this is the case than there is no sense in proselytizing -- as this implies that Christianity, in its mainstream form, is largely false, as it strictly denies there being any truth at all in other theistic religions.

Quote from: "Maverick9092"Not to mention, some things were just inherently wrong about the book.  For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

 :crazy:  

Quote from: "Maverick9092"some things were just inherently wrong about the book.  For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

Wow, and I thought morality had come with the Ten Commandments. Prior to that, you see, the Hebrew people had considered fornication, making graven images of god, lying and stealing, murdering neighbours, disrespecting their parents, adultery, etc. completely ok!

Have you always followed Christ all your life? At some point did you disbelieve? If you lost faith in Christ would you start running over babies in prams and eating homeless people?

Quote from: "Kodanshi"

Quote from: "Maverick9092"some things were just inherently wrong about the book.  For example, he discusses that morality doesn't come with Christ, when I definitely believe that without Christ there would be no morality.

Wow, and I thought morality had come with the Ten Commandments. Prior to that, you see, the Hebrew people had considered fornication, making graven images of god, lying and stealing, murdering neighbours, disrespecting their parents, adultery, etc. completely ok!

Have you always followed Christ all your life? At some point did you disbelieve? If you lost faith in Christ would you start running over babies in prams and eating homeless people?

I'm still cool with some of those. I don't mind the odd graven image of god, and I even see nothing wrong with fornicating right in front of it!

F

Quote from: "maestroanth"My morality comes from Street Fighter IV. REWRR!!!!!!(Blanka roar).  Take that survival of the fittest! lol

I dunno my environment sucked; I had two alcoholic parents.  I think my morality came from within.

Go home and be a family man!

Quote from: "Maverick9092"Not to once again hijack this thread, but this doesn't make sense to me.. God has been around since the dawn of time, therefore every religion or higher being before the actual Christian religion is in someway influenced by God.  I don't know, that's just how I see it.

I think you are forgetting that God's moral message has changed over time.

The Jews had 613 commandments.  Most cultures, both past and present, break numbers 31, 33, 34, 35, 50, 51, 52, 59, 60, 62, 63, 64, 68, 69, 71, 72, 76, 82, 86, 87, 88, 90, 93-118, 132, 162, 176-190, 195-202, 204-208, 234-228,  etc.....I got tired of reading through them.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot)

Then you have the Christian 10 commandments (there are actually two sets of differing 10 commandments):
The common set:  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=9;)
The replacement set:  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2034;&version=9;)
Very few cultures of past and present have followed most of either of these 10 commandments.  Even modern followers don't tend to honor the Sabbath.

So, what morality came from God?  Why hasn't morality always been the same if it did come from God?  Keep in mind, only very recently have some cultures decided it is morally wrong to own slaves (something that is condoned in the bible).  That's just one example.

If morality is given by god, why did he leave so many out????? I think morality is a genetic/neurologic dispostion.....as well as the shaping of the human psyche in early ages......I watched a program yesterday about some serious serial killers, and they all had terrible things happening to them while their brain was developing......and many were genius people, too.....but the split of early bonding and early trauma of some kind is now being studied as to a reason for the lack of empathy for anything or morality.....choose which word you prefer......I think we need to learn more in this field....

I think the basics of morality concerning god boils down to the Euthyphro Dilemma (http://www.moralphilosophy.info/euthyphrodilemma.html). Does god command something because it is inherently good? In that case, why do you need god to tell you? Or is something good BECAUSE god commands it? In which case its morality seems totally arbitrary.

Quote from: "Kodanshi"I think the basics of morality concerning god boils down to the Euthyphro Dilemma (http://www.moralphilosophy.info/euthyphrodilemma.html). Does god command something because it is inherently good? In that case, why do you need god to tell you? Or is something good BECAUSE god commands it? In which case its morality seems totally arbitrary.

This is only a problem for divine command theory, but it is a devastating one.

I do however think that the majority of theists are moral realists.

Quote from: "Maverick9092"I don't know

agreed