Title: I want to help.
Post by: Dilj4Jesus on March 17, 2009, 05:43:04 AM
Post by: Dilj4Jesus on March 17, 2009, 05:43:04 AM
If anyone wants to understand why I am a Christian, or why I believe Christianity to be true. Send me a PM or post a reply here. I believe that Jesus cares for everyone, so don't feel like this will be a condescending discussion. 
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Maverick9092 on March 17, 2009, 05:53:16 AM
Post by: Maverick9092 on March 17, 2009, 05:53:16 AM
I'm willing to answer questions as well.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: NaturaLCalamity on March 17, 2009, 06:40:55 AM
Post by: NaturaLCalamity on March 17, 2009, 06:40:55 AM
Welcome to the forums!
Most of the people on this forum, including me, used to be Christians so I don't think we need to "understand" why you are a Christian. We've been there, done that, so we know what it's like. Thanks, but I don't think I need any help.
As for the question, I have one just for you!
God is an almighty being. He is perfect in every way and his creations are perfect. After decades of researching and studying evolutionary processes, we've seen some species evolving and adapting in our lifetime. If God created everything so perfectly by his own free will, why do such species need to evolve? From a biological standpoint, evolution occurs because they help species to adapt to the environment better so they can have a higher chance to survive to reproduce. So seeing as how some species have evolved over time, why did God create them imperfectly to allow them to go through evolution? Why didn't he just make them perfect to begin with?
Most of the people on this forum, including me, used to be Christians so I don't think we need to "understand" why you are a Christian. We've been there, done that, so we know what it's like. Thanks, but I don't think I need any help.
As for the question, I have one just for you!
God is an almighty being. He is perfect in every way and his creations are perfect. After decades of researching and studying evolutionary processes, we've seen some species evolving and adapting in our lifetime. If God created everything so perfectly by his own free will, why do such species need to evolve? From a biological standpoint, evolution occurs because they help species to adapt to the environment better so they can have a higher chance to survive to reproduce. So seeing as how some species have evolved over time, why did God create them imperfectly to allow them to go through evolution? Why didn't he just make them perfect to begin with?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 17, 2009, 07:24:50 AM
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 17, 2009, 07:24:50 AM
Thanks, but no thanks.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kodanshi on March 17, 2009, 01:27:19 PM
Post by: Kodanshi on March 17, 2009, 01:27:19 PM
I come from a muslim background, so I’d like to know what convinced you of the truth of Christianity over, say, Islâm? Did you grow up as a part of a Christian family by any chance? Did you have a personal experience of Yeshua‘?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on March 17, 2009, 04:25:46 PM
Post by: PipeBox on March 17, 2009, 04:25:46 PM
Why do you believe there are earthquakes? That's been in and out of my head for the past couple days. I see no good way to explain them. Indeed, I'll let you know if your answer does not properly address the problem, but it might!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: rlrose328 on March 17, 2009, 10:12:34 PM
Post by: rlrose328 on March 17, 2009, 10:12:34 PM
I, like most here, have identified as Christian for a period of time in my life (having been brainwashed from birth), so I don't need to discuss your stories with you. I'm happy you've found what makes you comfortable. I have found that as well. Have fun here, though. :hide2:
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Squid on March 17, 2009, 11:15:59 PM
Post by: Squid on March 17, 2009, 11:15:59 PM
I spent most of my life as a Christian so have most of the posters here so we're not ignorant of reasons for belief in general. However, I would be curious in your particular reasons for your belief.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Will on March 17, 2009, 11:29:03 PM
Post by: Will on March 17, 2009, 11:29:03 PM
Is Old School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_(film)) as awesome for you as it is for me? I love this movie.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: GreatScott on March 18, 2009, 08:15:33 AM
Post by: GreatScott on March 18, 2009, 08:15:33 AM
Quote from: "Dilj4Jesus"If anyone wants to understand why I am a Christian, or why I believe Christianity to be true. Send me a PM or post a reply here. I believe that Jesus cares for everyone, so don't feel like this will be a condescending discussion.
Well, I feel impressed to admit that I fabricated Dilj4Jesus. Generally speaking a Christian voice in an Atheist forum provokes unbridled rage. After testing the waters, I was surprised to find that every reply was cordial and well thought out! In my opinion... that is rare enough to justify making a more open account. The posts I made were all arguments or "ammunition" I have been taught/given since birth. So to my credit I was accurately representing Christian thoughts, though maybe I wasn't presenting them in a Christian manner. To anyone who feels wrongly duped, please accept my apology. Now...
Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"So seeing as how some species have evolved over time, why did God create them imperfectly to allow them to go through evolution? Why didn't he just make them perfect to begin with?
I personally do not believe theistic evolution is plausible, however... This particular question hinges on the assumption that evolution is working towards some idea of "perfection". These images of "ascending the ladder" remind me of Buddhism or Humanist thought... Corporations.. whatever. All creatures would be "perfect", and an (ID) might use evolution to simply to create diversity. So.. yeah that is my response.
Quote from: "Kodanshi"I come from a muslim background, so I’d like to know what convinced you of the truth of Christianity over, say, Islâm? Did you grow up as a part of a Christian family by any chance? Did you have a personal experience of Yeshua‘?
I attended a Christian High-School which encouraged me to explore other religions in a "safe" setting. Obviously a Christian school isn't going to allow other religions to sway the student body. So mostly I learned "This is what this religion is about, and this is why its a sham." (or something to that effect). My entire family has a deep belief in Christianity, renewed by the Christian movement that swept America around the '70s. (is that right?) I bought a Quran, and read some Muslim literature. I found it didn't stand up, but maybe it was because I don't know farsi... so. I have had many spiritual experiences.
Quote from: "Will"Is Old School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_(film)) as awesome for you as it is for me? I love this movie.
Actually, I really like that movie. I saw it about the time it first came out.
Quote from: "Squid"I spent most of my life as a Christian so have most of the posters here so we're not ignorant of reasons for belief in general. However, I would be curious in your particular reasons for your belief.
Well, regardless of what some think, though I am a Christian my goal is not converting other people. I am not trying to convert people because I am not at the point where I can fully accept Christianity. All that said to say this: I am at a conflict of heart and mind. So what I believe in my mind and heart are entirely different. In my mind I find an unguided universe to be HIGHLY unlikely with what we know. Still, I must face the fact that scientific progress has dethroned the sound reason of Christianity. In my heart, I cannot see life as being purposeless, nor can I deny my past experiences. I recently enrolled in a missions organization for several months. It was there I saw things I cannot explain. Supernatural acts, and people who lived a life in concordance with the Bible. Still, I am not satisfied that Christianity fits with what we have observed/discovered in the past 150 years. So I find myself sitting in a very uncomfortable spot... One reason why I entered this forum. As someone who has grown with an unwavering Christian world-view, it is difficult to view things from another perspective. I'm vainly attempting to answer questions which have been debated for centuries. So... here's to an honest open discussion.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Hitsumei on March 18, 2009, 11:27:14 AM
Post by: Hitsumei on March 18, 2009, 11:27:14 AM
My suggestion to you is that it is not either or. There are many scientific facts that contradict many strict readings of the bible, and I would suggest that they cannot be reasonably ignored. However not everything does, and what doesn't is really just up to your own personal discretion. What you think to be more plausible. That is all that any of us can do.
Strive for a consistent, and logically sound worldview that conforms with our best knowledge.
Personally, I don't know the answers to life the universe and everything, and I suspect that I never will. When I was a young woman I took a very contrarian position towards Christianity, and religion, but I later came to realize that I was doing it for emotional reasons, because of the pain and hardship certain religious tenets had caused me in my earlier life, and how I despised them, and felt that the religions were responsible.
As I watched the world change, and traveled to different cultures and places over the last twenty years, I came to doubt this earlier position, and for this reason now identify as a cultural christian. I do still think that the religion is a human construction, but the basic claim of a theistic creator existing is something I do not affirm or deny. My intuition would be that one does not, but I have no substantive reason to suppose that.
I tell you this because I don't think that it is either or. If you want to be a Christian, it does not entail the rejection of science, and the acceptance of every single thing you are told by your Christian school. They are fallible mortals like everyone else. Any question you find important, you should examine the evidence, and both sides and arguments, and come to your own conclusion about what is best supported.
That is all anyone can reasonably do. If you ever get it wrong, then don't let that bother you. To err is human, we all do it. C'est la vie.
Strive for a consistent, and logically sound worldview that conforms with our best knowledge.
Personally, I don't know the answers to life the universe and everything, and I suspect that I never will. When I was a young woman I took a very contrarian position towards Christianity, and religion, but I later came to realize that I was doing it for emotional reasons, because of the pain and hardship certain religious tenets had caused me in my earlier life, and how I despised them, and felt that the religions were responsible.
As I watched the world change, and traveled to different cultures and places over the last twenty years, I came to doubt this earlier position, and for this reason now identify as a cultural christian. I do still think that the religion is a human construction, but the basic claim of a theistic creator existing is something I do not affirm or deny. My intuition would be that one does not, but I have no substantive reason to suppose that.
I tell you this because I don't think that it is either or. If you want to be a Christian, it does not entail the rejection of science, and the acceptance of every single thing you are told by your Christian school. They are fallible mortals like everyone else. Any question you find important, you should examine the evidence, and both sides and arguments, and come to your own conclusion about what is best supported.
That is all anyone can reasonably do. If you ever get it wrong, then don't let that bother you. To err is human, we all do it. C'est la vie.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: jcm on March 18, 2009, 12:05:37 PM
Post by: jcm on March 18, 2009, 12:05:37 PM
QuoteI am at a conflict of heart and mind.
When I am at a conflict with my eyes and elbows, I tend to bump into walls.
I can see using your blood pump, as a thinking apparatus, would cause some problems.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on March 18, 2009, 04:43:30 PM
Post by: PipeBox on March 18, 2009, 04:43:30 PM
Just wanted to say that theistic evolution is a fine belief (I used to hold it), because evolution is a fact. Even if we had the mechanics wrong, we've observed speciation, and there is no DNA "lock" to keep things from developing a new feature over many generations, then another, then another, until they look nothing like the ancestral creature. But we do have the mechanics down to, forgive the pun, a science, and evolution is, in scientific circles, no more in dispute than atomic theory or gravitational theory. Can give you a few youtube videos, if ya like, that make it fairly easy to understand.
Beyond that, I hope you ask any questions you can think of, and that your feelings regain sync with your reason.
Beyond that, I hope you ask any questions you can think of, and that your feelings regain sync with your reason.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Sophus on March 18, 2009, 07:45:29 PM
Post by: Sophus on March 18, 2009, 07:45:29 PM
I humbly contend we are not the ones in need of educating.
How insulting. I am too a human. ;)
Quote from: "Hitsumei"To err is human, we all do it.
How insulting. I am too a human. ;)
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: GreatScott on March 19, 2009, 09:07:31 AM
Post by: GreatScott on March 19, 2009, 09:07:31 AM
Pipebox,
What I meant is that evolution and Christianity, in my opinion, are incompatible. There is a lot of resistance to evolution by Christians for good reason. If evolution is true, then it complicates Christian teaching. If we evolved from primates, at what point did "Imago Dei" enter the picture? How do you reconcile evolution with the events of creation in Genesis? Suddenly, you have to struggle to make the pieces fit. There are many others but the most troubling thing about evolution is that it takes God out of the picture (as far as creating life). So... I know there are many Christians who enter college only to discover that evolution is inescapable. As they cannot deny evolution nor deny Christ, theistic evolution is the compromise. Some find that it works for them, however I cannot accept this.
I'd still like to see the videos, I'm sure I could learn a lot.
Thanks!
[EDIT] Let me clarify a bit... I understand that theistic, as in theistic evolution, does not necessarily mean the Christian God. However, I'm used to being in Christian circles and generally assuming that it does mean Christianity. Perhaps that is where some confusion came in. Still, in my mind I perceive evolution to carry with it many implications to a belief in God, no matter what.
What I meant is that evolution and Christianity, in my opinion, are incompatible. There is a lot of resistance to evolution by Christians for good reason. If evolution is true, then it complicates Christian teaching. If we evolved from primates, at what point did "Imago Dei" enter the picture? How do you reconcile evolution with the events of creation in Genesis? Suddenly, you have to struggle to make the pieces fit. There are many others but the most troubling thing about evolution is that it takes God out of the picture (as far as creating life). So... I know there are many Christians who enter college only to discover that evolution is inescapable. As they cannot deny evolution nor deny Christ, theistic evolution is the compromise. Some find that it works for them, however I cannot accept this.
I'd still like to see the videos, I'm sure I could learn a lot.
Thanks!
[EDIT] Let me clarify a bit... I understand that theistic, as in theistic evolution, does not necessarily mean the Christian God. However, I'm used to being in Christian circles and generally assuming that it does mean Christianity. Perhaps that is where some confusion came in. Still, in my mind I perceive evolution to carry with it many implications to a belief in God, no matter what.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Wendy on March 19, 2009, 01:31:32 PM
Post by: Wendy on March 19, 2009, 01:31:32 PM
So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 19, 2009, 03:52:45 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 19, 2009, 03:52:45 PM
[youtube:3er4ag1h]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60T_6ubNFp4[/youtube:3er4ag1h]
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Wendy on March 19, 2009, 06:03:44 PM
Post by: Wendy on March 19, 2009, 06:03:44 PM
That was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh! 
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: GreatScott on March 19, 2009, 07:11:49 PM
Post by: GreatScott on March 19, 2009, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: "Wendy"So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?
Well.. the Bible is more like a guidebook on how to know your creator and follow Him. So the fact that Genesis leaves out Dinosaurs or extinct species is fine by me, it would be pointless to include them anyhow. In my opinion, alien life, dinosaurs, and all this diversity of life in past and future fits God's personality well (In the Christian sense). He never seemed to do what people thought he should do, and always did what they didn't think He would. Plus since it is stated that he created everything natural, then it is apparent that God loves diversity. So the Old Testament carries with it many stories, but if you look deep into the layers of meaning you will find God's personality. It is important then that who I know God to be fits with what we know about the Universe. Dinosaurs passes the test, evolution does not (in my opinion of course). This being said, I'll sum it up like this: It's not about them being a mistake, but about a time and place for all things.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Sophus on March 19, 2009, 07:17:56 PM
Post by: Sophus on March 19, 2009, 07:17:56 PM
QuoteWell.. the Bible is more like a guidebook on how to know your creator and follow Him. So the fact that Genesis leaves out Dinosaurs or extinct species is fine by me, it would be pointless to include them anyhow. In my opinion, alien life, dinosaurs, and all this diversity of life in past and future fits God's personality well (In the Christian sense). He never seemed to do what people thought he should do, and always did what they didn't think He would. Plus since it is stated that he created everything natural, then it is apparent that God loves diversity. So the Old Testament carries with it many stories, but if you look deep into the layers of meaning you will find God's personality. It is important then that who I know God to be fits with what we know about the Universe. Dinosaurs passes the test, evolution does not (in my opinion of course). This being said, I'll sum it up like this: It's not about them being a mistake, but about a time and place for all things.
That was funny.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 19, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 19, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: "GreatScott"He never seemed to do what people thought he should do, and always did what they didn't think He would.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg297.imageshack.us%2Fimg297%2F1116%2Frebeljesus710064gif.png&hash=653f561ae713a0abeec42c600e0399dd16357e06)
Rebel god has struck again!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kodanshi on March 19, 2009, 09:25:48 PM
Post by: Kodanshi on March 19, 2009, 09:25:48 PM
So is that why the allâ€"merciful and always good god massacred loads of people? To prove to everyone that god had free will?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Lilbeth on March 20, 2009, 12:45:58 AM
Post by: Lilbeth on March 20, 2009, 12:45:58 AM
Quote from: "GreatScott"Quote from: "Wendy"So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?
Well.. the Bible is more like a guidebook on how to know your creator and follow Him. So the fact that Genesis leaves out Dinosaurs or extinct species is fine by me, it would be pointless to include them anyhow. In my opinion, alien life, dinosaurs, and all this diversity of life in past and future fits God's personality well (In the Christian sense). He never seemed to do what people thought he should do, and always did what they didn't think He would. Plus since it is stated that he created everything natural, then it is apparent that God loves diversity. So the Old Testament carries with it many stories, but if you look deep into the layers of meaning you will find God's personality. It is important then that who I know God to be fits with what we know about the Universe. Dinosaurs passes the test, evolution does not (in my opinion of course). This being said, I'll sum it up like this: It's not about them being a mistake, but about a time and place for all things.
WOW!
Now, I think you really believe this...Power to you!....but to me, it is kind of funny and it made me laugh. I'm sorry.....
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: G.ENIGMA on March 21, 2009, 01:17:21 AM
Post by: G.ENIGMA on March 21, 2009, 01:17:21 AM
Quote from: "Lilbeth"Quote from: "GreatScott"Quote from: "Wendy"Well.. the Bible is more like a guidebook on how to know your creator and follow Him.
WOW!
It made me laugh too Lilbeth ... The bible is more like a J.K Rowlings novel than an insight into how a omnipotent God would do things
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 21, 2009, 03:24:25 AM
Post by: Ihateyoumike on March 21, 2009, 03:24:25 AM
Quote from: "Lilbeth"WOW! roflol as well
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 02, 2009, 08:53:05 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 02, 2009, 08:53:05 AM
Why is it that people believe God has free will? I do not believe He does and do not know of a passage in the Bible that states that He has free will.God is omniscient but this does not imply He has free will.God is limited by who He is.God is love God is just He is forgiving and so forth and on and so these things limit Him from interfering in our freewill.God has given us the freedom to choose the paths we desire to take in our life and when these choices bring bad things into our lives God honors our free will by not interfering to some this seems to be considered cruel.The real cruelty would be to control us as if we were His puppets.God honors our choices when it comes to choosing our eternal destiny,we predetermine our eternal life not God and He honors our choice.He will not force us to spend eternity with Him if that's what we desire.
Love to all in Christ Jesus
Love to all in Christ Jesus
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 03:38:22 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 03:38:22 PM
Quote from: "Godschild"Why is it that people believe God has free will? I do not believe He does and do not know of a passage in the Bible that states that He has free will.God is omniscient but this does not imply He has free will.God is limited by who He is.God is love God is just He is forgiving and so forth and on and so these things limit Him from interfering in our freewill.God has given us the freedom to choose the paths we desire to take in our life and when these choices bring bad things into our lives God honors our free will by not interfering to some this seems to be considered cruel.The real cruelty would be to control us as if we were His puppets.God honors our choices when it comes to choosing our eternal destiny,we predetermine our eternal life not God and He honors our choice.He will not force us to spend eternity with Him if that's what we desire.Fail.
Love to all in Christ Jesus
If God actually has the attributes of "God" then God will not be limited. By anything. Period.
Can God hate? Can God destroy itself? Why does God supposedly punish the people who don't desire to spend eternity with it? Does God give extra rewards to the people hurt by the bad ones it lets have free will? Does that mean Heaven is more of a paradise for some people than others, or do the ones who had to suffer extra during life get the same package as those who lived in luxury?
Srsly, did you actually think about what you typed before you hit Submit?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kylyssa on May 02, 2009, 04:19:10 PM
Post by: Kylyssa on May 02, 2009, 04:19:10 PM
Quote from: "Godschild"God is love God is just He is forgiving and so forth and on and so these things limit Him from interfering in our freewill.
ROFLMAO!!!
It's an interesting definition of love you've got there. The love I've known has been nurturing and protective, dead set on achieving the best for the beloved ones. The love I've known has not hated the object of its love. The love I've known is not controlling or coercive. The love I've known has accepted the equality of those beloved with those that love. The love I've known has been counter to allowing suffering, it fights it tooth and nail.
Desiring to be worshiped is not love. Desiring to control and command is not love. Letting people suffer horribly is not love. Hating is not love. Being above all others is not love.
Love is humble, love is nurturing, love is kind, love makes no demands - that is the love I know.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:15:05 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:15:05 PM
Quote from: "Kodanshi"I come from a muslim background, so I’d like to know what convinced you of the truth of Christianity over, say, Islâm? Did you grow up as a part of a Christian family by any chance? Did you have a personal experience of Yeshua‘?
The Quran was written by 1 person hundreds of years after the biblical text. The similarities between the Quran and scripture is identical in some parts, and flawed in many parts.
The reason for believing the Bible is its perfection.
List of things I believe testify to the Bible's perfection,
QuoteThe uniformity - despite 66 books being written by 40 different authors in a vast time span, the Bible is incredibly uniform.
Historical accuracy (not even an argument btw w/ secular scholars) watch the history channel lately?
Scientifically accurate (not even talking creation here, just normal facts that weren't known in that time.)
Prophecy fulfillment (but the willfully ignorant will just look past this)
Health ethics - The health ethics in the Bible are flawless. Another testimony to the truth of the Bible.
Moral ethics - again, perfection and the reason most people rather not believe in the Bible IMO
Not patronizing - the Bible does not try to win you with concessions, its either all or none w/ the Bible
The contents - the Bible is written just like an encyclopedia, just reporting the facts.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:27:57 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:27:57 PM
QuoteMost of the people on this forum, including me, used to be Christians so I don't think we need to "understand" why you are a Christian. We've been there, done that, so we know what it's like. Thanks, but I don't think I need any help.I know exactly what you mean. I thought I been their done that when I was a Catholic turned atheist. I just didn't have any of the truth or misconstrued versions of it. Once I learned the truth, praise the lord my mind was still open enough to consider it again.
As for the question, I have one just for you!
QuoteGod is an almighty being. He is perfect in every way and his creations are perfect. After decades of researching and studying evolutionary processes, we've seen some species evolving and adapting in our lifetime. If God created everything so perfectly by his own free will, why do such species need to evolve? From a biological standpoint, evolution occurs because they help species to adapt to the environment better so they can have a higher chance to survive to reproduce. So seeing as how some species have evolved over time, why did God create them imperfectly to allow them to go through evolution? Why didn't he just make them perfect to begin with?
When you say evolve, I assume you mean adaptation or mutation.
God made all things perfect, and then after sin, all things began to perish and sin became greater and greater.
QuoteGE 3:17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“ Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
For our sake God cursed the ground. To help keep us from sin. Idleness is the worse thing for man as the most sin comes from those who are idle and lazy. This also as you might imagine lead to adaptation amongst the animals to cope with the new conditions, especially after the flood. But we started perfect, and then sin just made things worse and worse. Global warming, wars, greed, etc..
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:34:59 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:34:59 PM
Quote from: "PipeBox"Why do you believe there are earthquakes? That's been in and out of my head for the past couple days. I see no good way to explain them. Indeed, I'll let you know if your answer does not properly address the problem, but it might!
No need. What does evolution think the need for earthquakes are? The earthquakes stem again from our sin and more specifically the flood.
Quote10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up
They were broken up, large parts of the ocean floor were split apart and water underneath was released with great pressure. The first earthquakes must of began at this very moment I would imagine.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:41:01 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: "rlrose328"I, like most here, have identified as Christian for a period of time in my life (having been brainwashed from birth), so I don't need to discuss your stories with you. I'm happy you've found what makes you comfortable. I have found that as well. Have fun here, though. :hide2:
This happens a lot for those born in the faith. I observe this and I am cognizant when raising my own kids. You been taught the what, when, but not the why and how. Its a formula for failure. And when you go off into the secular world, you learn their version of why and how.
Matt 13: 19-21
Quote19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"The earthquakes stem again from our sin and more specifically the flood.Okay, everybody. We can officially forget about this one. Once you get to the "earthquakes stem from our sin" argument, there's no point in even talking.
Move along, people. Nothing to see here.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:52:43 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:52:43 PM
QuoteI agree that religion is human construction, but a natural construction. Their is something inside people that know their is something more. Gods word is though a divine construction to help us w/ what we once had on a daily basis and what we will have again.QuoteMy suggestion to you is that it is not either or. There are many scientific facts that contradict many strict readings of the bible, and I would suggest that they cannot be reasonably ignored.Such as?
As I watched the world change, and traveled to different cultures and places over the last twenty years, I came to doubt this earlier position, and for this reason now identify as a cultural christian. I do still think that the religion is a human construction, but the basic claim of a theistic creator existing is something I do not affirm or deny. My intuition would be that one does not, but I have no substantive reason to suppose that.
QuoteI tell you this because I don't think that it is either or. If you want to be a Christian, it does not entail the rejection of science, and the acceptance of every single thing you are told by your Christian school. They are fallible mortals like everyone else. Any question you find important, you should examine the evidence, and both sides and arguments, and come to your own conclusion about what is best supported.Agreed, should never take the truth from just what a person/teacher/pastor/rabbi/priest/pope/scientist/television etc.. says, always look it up yourself.
QuoteThat is all anyone can reasonably do. If you ever get it wrong, then don't let that bother you. To err is human, we all do it. C'est la vie.Thats why we have the word, a pilot should always trust his instruments, not his feelings when flying through a cloud.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:57:33 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 08:57:33 PM
Quote from: "Wendy"So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?
QuoteThe term "dinosaur" was coined in 1842 by Sir Richard Owen and derives from Greek δεινόÏ, (deinos) "terrible, powerful, wondrous" + σαῦÏοÏ, (sauros) "lizard"
Did you know reptiles never stop growing until they die? Early humans lived long long ages, for animals, it was the same. Dinosaurs just various oversize lizards.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:00:38 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:00:38 PM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Quote from: "Godschild"Why is it that people believe God has free will? I do not believe He does and do not know of a passage in the Bible that states that He has free will.God is omniscient but this does not imply He has free will.God is limited by who He is.God is love God is just He is forgiving and so forth and on and so these things limit Him from interfering in our freewill.God has given us the freedom to choose the paths we desire to take in our life and when these choices bring bad things into our lives God honors our free will by not interfering to some this seems to be considered cruel.The real cruelty would be to control us as if we were His puppets.God honors our choices when it comes to choosing our eternal destiny,we predetermine our eternal life not God and He honors our choice.He will not force us to spend eternity with Him if that's what we desire.Fail.
Love to all in Christ Jesus
If God actually has the attributes of "God" then God will not be limited. By anything. Period.
Can God hate? Can God destroy itself? Why does God supposedly punish the people who don't desire to spend eternity with it? Does God give extra rewards to the people hurt by the bad ones it lets have free will? Does that mean Heaven is more of a paradise for some people than others, or do the ones who had to suffer extra during life get the same package as those who lived in luxury?
Srsly, did you actually think about what you typed before you hit Submit?
I do not disagree here.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:07:20 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:07:20 PM
Quote from: "Kylyssa"Quote from: "Godschild"God is love God is just He is forgiving and so forth and on and so these things limit Him from interfering in our freewill.
ROFLMAO!!!
It's an interesting definition of love you've got there. The love I've known has been nurturing and protective, dead set on achieving the best for the beloved ones. The love I've known has not hated the object of its love. The love I've known is not controlling or coercive. The love I've known has accepted the equality of those beloved with those that love. The love I've known has been counter to allowing suffering, it fights it tooth and nail.
Desiring to be worshiped is not love. Desiring to control and command is not love. Letting people suffer horribly is not love. Hating is not love. Being above all others is not love.
Love is humble, love is nurturing, love is kind, love makes no demands - that is the love I know.
People are quick to blame God for all the problems that exist. People forget that their is also Satin who exists and the fallen world belongs to him. The Bible is clear on this point.
1 Cor 13: 4-8
Quote4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 09:12:55 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 09:12:55 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Uhm, early humans didn't live long, long ages. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that your source for this is the ages of all the people in the Old Testament, saying so-and-so lived to be 704 years old, so-and-so lived to be 679 years old, etc. Am I right?Quote from: "Wendy"So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?QuoteThe term "dinosaur" was coined in 1842 by Sir Richard Owen and derives from Greek δεινόÏ, (deinos) "terrible, powerful, wondrous" + σαῦÏοÏ, (sauros) "lizard"
Did you know reptiles never stop growing until they die? Early humans lived long long ages, for animals, it was the same. Dinosaurs just various oversize lizards.
I heard some freshman making this same argument in my Old Testament class back in my undergrad. It was as ridiculous ten years ago as it is now. Even just a hundred years ago, living to be 40 made someone ancient in most societies. This is due to parasites, predators, unsanitary living conditions, war, violence, starvation, etc, etc, etc. Are you saying that there was none of these things back then? There were no bacteria, viruses, no dirty water, no wars or violence, and ample amounts of food? Come on.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: "Kylyssa"It's an interesting definition of love you've got there. The love I've known has been nurturing and protective, dead set on achieving the best for the beloved ones. The love I've known has not hated the object of its love. The love I've known is not controlling or coercive. The love I've known has accepted the equality of those beloved with those that love. The love I've known has been counter to allowing suffering, it fights it tooth and nail.
Desiring to be worshiped is not love. Desiring to control and command is not love. Letting people suffer horribly is not love. Hating is not love. Being above all others is not love.
Love is humble, love is nurturing, love is kind, love makes no demands - that is the love I know.
Thats true. The lord does not hate the humans, he hates sin itself. The Bible makes it clear that God the father cannot physically stand the presence w/ a sinner. Besides, a sinner would be miserable in heaven. If you do not want to follow his laws here, what makes you think you will be happy following them in the world to come. Sin must be eradicated in order for true happiness to prevail. That is the only way for a universal peace can exist.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:21:04 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:21:04 PM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"The earthquakes stem again from our sin and more specifically the flood.Okay, everybody. We can officially forget about this one. Once you get to the "earthquakes stem from our sin" argument, there's no point in even talking.
Move along, people. Nothing to see here.
That is called being pragmatic, picking and choosing the points you can refute.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 09:23:03 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 09:23:03 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"That is called being pragmatic, picking and choosing the points you can refute.I always called it "snarky".
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:27:42 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 02, 2009, 09:27:42 PM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Uhm, early humans didn't live long, long ages. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that your source for this is the ages of all the people in the Old Testament, saying so-and-so lived to be 704 years old, so-and-so lived to be 679 years old, etc. Am I right?Quote from: "Wendy"So...why did god create dinosaurs before people? Were dinosaurs a mistake?QuoteThe term "dinosaur" was coined in 1842 by Sir Richard Owen and derives from Greek δεινόÏ, (deinos) "terrible, powerful, wondrous" + σαῦÏοÏ, (sauros) "lizard"
Did you know reptiles never stop growing until they die? Early humans lived long long ages, for animals, it was the same. Dinosaurs just various oversize lizards.
I heard some freshman making this same argument in my Old Testament class back in my undergrad. It was as ridiculous ten years ago as it is now. Even just a hundred years ago, living to be 40 made someone ancient in most societies. This is due to parasites, predators, unsanitary living conditions, war, violence, starvation, etc, etc, etc. Are you saying that there was none of these things back then? There were no bacteria, viruses, no dirty water, no wars or violence, and ample amounts of food? Come on.
Have you ever looked the eyebrow ridge of a Neanderthal? Eyebrow ridge also never stops growing. Thats why old people often have big foreheads. Their just humans that lived a long time, also proof that we existed at much taller heights then we see now.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 02, 2009, 10:55:44 PM
Post by: PipeBox on May 02, 2009, 10:55:44 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Have you ever looked the eyebrow ridge of a Neanderthal? Eyebrow ridge also never stops growing. Thats why old people often have big foreheads. Their just humans that lived a long time, also proof that we existed at much taller heights then we see now.
I'm no anatomist, but I was unable to find a source for the claim of an ever-growing eyebrow ridge. Rather, I suspect strongly that it appears the forehead of old people grows because their hairline recedes.
Good news is, I don't have to rely on the eyebrow ridge to back me. We've sequenced the mRNA of frozen Neanderthal tissue (from multiple sources and in multiple labs) and they are not ancestral to humans. Their great, great grandparents aren't even ancestral to humans. They lie on a separate branch from us, though we do share a common ancestor further up the line.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Recusant on May 02, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Post by: Recusant on May 02, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Hoohboy. I fear this may need yet another thread, but I'll confine myself to discussing the following statement for now:
I may get into historical accuracy and prophecy fulfillment as well, but I'll start with this one. I know it will probably be an exercise in futility (given that you seem to consider all of modern science to be devoted to backing up the theory of evolution) but I have trouble resisting.
I won't get into the π=3 thing; there are fairly easy ways to fudge your way out of that.
In Genesis chapter 1 we have:
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Followed by:
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
My question: According to this chronology, the earth existed before any stars. Are you telling me that this is scientifically accurate? What is your authority for this?
___________________________________________________
1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalms 93:1
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psalms 96:10
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
You mean to tell me that the earth does not move?
__________________________________________________
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater.
You mean to tell me that there is no such thing as evaporation?
__________________________________________________
Hebrews 12:25-27
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
OK, I guess it's well established then, that earthquakes are caused by god's wrath. (Tectonics are a fable of 'evolutionists.')
_________________________________________________
Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Hmm, I didn't know that hares chewed a cud. It may be news to zoologists as well.
I could go on, but I'll let you chew on these for the moment.
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"The reason for believing the Bible is its perfection.
Scientifically accurate (not even talking creation here, just normal facts that weren't known in that time.)
I may get into historical accuracy and prophecy fulfillment as well, but I'll start with this one. I know it will probably be an exercise in futility (given that you seem to consider all of modern science to be devoted to backing up the theory of evolution) but I have trouble resisting.
I won't get into the π=3 thing; there are fairly easy ways to fudge your way out of that.
In Genesis chapter 1 we have:
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Followed by:
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
My question: According to this chronology, the earth existed before any stars. Are you telling me that this is scientifically accurate? What is your authority for this?
___________________________________________________
1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalms 93:1
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psalms 96:10
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
You mean to tell me that the earth does not move?
__________________________________________________
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater.
You mean to tell me that there is no such thing as evaporation?
__________________________________________________
Hebrews 12:25-27
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
OK, I guess it's well established then, that earthquakes are caused by god's wrath. (Tectonics are a fable of 'evolutionists.')
_________________________________________________
Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Hmm, I didn't know that hares chewed a cud. It may be news to zoologists as well.
I could go on, but I'll let you chew on these for the moment.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 11:34:58 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 02, 2009, 11:34:58 PM
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 12:40:53 AM
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 12:40:53 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"No need. What does evolution think the need for earthquakes are? The earthquakes stem again from our sin and more specifically the flood.Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow. Evolution is a biological theory describing the mechanic by which life differentiates. It has as much to do with plate tectonics as elemental periodicity (how they are arranged on the periodic table, and yes there is a reason) with gravitational theory. As to how earthquakes tie into my view on reality? They're aspects of living on a planet with moving plates and a molten interior. The structure of the planet makes sense with what we see elsewhere in the cosmos and predict as a result of planetary formation. We don't expect the universe to be kind, and we, in fact, observe its indifference. The planet doesn't care when it quakes, it's a function of various forces and matter. Likewise, the motion of comets and asteroids is governed by natural law as we have yet observed. I like that you imply that the universe has motive in my world view. As though "evolution" (where you meant whatever I accept as an explanation) needs to give account for why nature is indifferent. But all I accept is nature, so there's no appeal to a meta authority for why evolution evolved us in such a way or why planets form as they do instead of some other way. This is the way these things formed. These things appear indifferent to us. You're the one at a loss for trying to explain why the almighty creator would want the universe to occasionally kick the crap out of us.
If earthquakes stem from the flood, I would love to learn how. The Discovery Institute (creationist "science" think-tank) hasn't been able to tie that one down yet. Even better would be to ask why Io has earthquakes (ioquakes, if you prefer). Io didn't flood nor experience sin. Did the whole universe adjust just to make it appear as though it wasn't our fault, to fool us into believing it was isotropic and the same physics here work on Mars? Because if it is, God is covering up a truth that would be readily apparent were it not for the meddling.
Quote10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up
They were broken up, large parts of the ocean floor were split apart and water underneath was released with great pressure. The first earthquakes must of began at this very moment I would imagine.
OK, no, because math. And geology. This implies that the unbroken crust of granite and basalt was floating on top of the water. As this material is far more dense than water, you require an unbroken crust or the water would have poured out "too soon." Nevermind that there is no evidence for the massive water reservoir, nor any evidence that a planet can form in such a way. Let's say Goddidit for just a moment, putting water over the inner and outer core and mantle, under the crust. By the way, the reason we use a layer of water all around the globe under an unbroken crust is because that is the only way it will all be expelled naturally, under the force of the sinking crust giving rise to the oceans and plates. It is absolutely imperative in this model the crust be universally of the same height. There is some very tough math behind this, but I'll be happy to source it for you. For a 10.1 KM (the Bible does say the waters covered even the highest mountains) tall mountain, it would bend the crust below it. The crust below it would have to extend 4.1 KM below sea level to not break. Even still, it would bend, and this bending would occur through fracture, and through that small series of hairline fractures the water would be set free, being under enormous pressure. Even a hill 1 KM high would require the crust be bent by 830 meters into the water reservoir below. So, we must eliminate all but the very smallest geological aberrations.
Now, you would also need massive pillars linking the crust to the layers beneath the water, otherwise the the free-floating innards would be free to crash against the crust when their movement desynchronized (technically the crust crashes against the innards). Magma doesn't suffer this problem as it is far, far more dense and and less pliant than water, and because the transitions from crust to mantle to outer core are gentle. The mantle is more like very hot rock with a low plasticity (though higher than surface rock), anyway. Anyway, since the crust is fixed from movement you can expect it to heave tidally by about 3 meters whenever the moon is overhead. Not good, as basalt and granite are not uniformly interlocking crystal structures! In short order, fractures will develop, and the water, again, escapes far too soon.
But my absolute favorite fact about the flood waters from below is this: As you go deeper, the temperature gets higher. So, if you have a 5 KM thick crust (and I'm being very generous here, the continental crust thickness is 35 KM on average and the oceans see 7-10 at their barest, and if you get much thinner over water, the crust will start breaking under its own weak structure and the moon's tidal forces), and the temperature gradient goes up 1 degree C for every 30M into the crust, then your water is at least 191 degrees Celsius. The pressure of the water under 5 KM of rock would be nearly 1300 atmospheres. The second you released the water, it would turn to steam and cook the planet. Noah and his boat of animals would be slowroasted barbecue.
There is no natural mechanic for the waters to have been under the planet. You're free to believe it was a miracle, but you won't have any kind of science backing you. You will be standing in opposition to reality as far as the sciences define it. You will be doing it for your comfortable myth. If you tell me that really rings right with you. Or try to give me physically possible circumstances for your flood. I'm not afraid to plug in numbers with you all day. Because if we can make a submission that explains all the evidence, and makes some unique predictions for us to research and vindicate, well you and I will have a Nobel in geophysics coming.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: McQ on May 03, 2009, 12:48:05 AM
Post by: McQ on May 03, 2009, 12:48:05 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Have you ever looked the eyebrow ridge of a Neanderthal? Eyebrow ridge also never stops growing. Thats why old people often have big foreheads. Their just humans that lived a long time, also proof that we existed at much taller heights then we see now.
You're joking, right? That claim is so patently stupid that you must be joking.
I told you guys he was probably just a troll or sock puppet, coming in here for some laughs. No one in his right mind would try to stand behind that absurd mis-fact.
If you're not joking, MOG, I would love to see your reference for this.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 01:11:19 AM
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 01:11:19 AM
Whatever he is, he enough Bible knowledge to play the part of a believer. I'd rather assume he has legitimate errata and misconceptions and try to help him rather than just hope it's a troll I'm blowing off. Even if he's a troll, he's making me look stuff up, and even under the guise of purpose, if none is truly present, it's fun. As he might say, iron sharpens iron.
Troll iron sharpens my iron.
Creationist iron sharpens my iron.
I'll dispense facts to either until they don't let me anymore.
Troll iron sharpens my iron.
Creationist iron sharpens my iron.
I'll dispense facts to either until they don't let me anymore.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 03, 2009, 01:48:43 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 03, 2009, 01:48:43 AM
To answer the reply of curioscityandthecat to Godschilds reply: Yes,I was thinking about what I had typed when I pushed the submit button I forgot I need to explain things a little better for those who do not believe in God so I'll try again.
God does have freewill but He is limited in His freewill because of who He is.God is love,God is compassionate,God is just and so on and so forth.God has given all of us freewill to choose as we desire and God honors us by letting us do as we see fit even if it is not what He desires for us.Now God might send someone into your life to help us make the right choice but He will not keep you from making the choices you desire.A note at this point do not confuse Gods will with His freewill His ultimate will for His creation will not change.
Yes, God does hate the wrong choices we make,He hates them because of the trouble they bring into our lives and because they are sins and God hates all sin.Sin is against all He is but He will honor our choices no matter what they are so Gods love limits his interfering in our choices.
No, God can not destroy Himself that would be selfish on His part that action would leave us without hope and His creation without purpose and this could be sinful and God hates sin and He can not sin so again Gods freewill is limited to who He is.
You are correct when you say God supposedly punishes people. God allows us to choose our eternal destiny and if we choose to be seperated from Him in this life He will honor that choice and let us have what we want in the next total seperation from Him.That is what hell is total seperation from God,also hell is a place of punishment it is not a place of punishing or torture.So if the choice is seperation He will not dishonor by forcing one to spend eternity with Him that would be torture.Please do not bring the fire thing of hell there is no fire there it is a place darkness.It is a place to think about the choices one has made in life remember wrong choices are sin and unforgiven sin is not allowed in Heaven.
It is clearly stated in the Bible that in Heaven some will receive greater rewards than others will and that there are different levels of hell.This is because God is a just God and He does not play the favorites game.Also Jesus said that the least in this life will be the first in Heaven.
Hey here is one for thought "they will not serve breakfast in hell".
Love to all in Christ Jesus
God does have freewill but He is limited in His freewill because of who He is.God is love,God is compassionate,God is just and so on and so forth.God has given all of us freewill to choose as we desire and God honors us by letting us do as we see fit even if it is not what He desires for us.Now God might send someone into your life to help us make the right choice but He will not keep you from making the choices you desire.A note at this point do not confuse Gods will with His freewill His ultimate will for His creation will not change.
Yes, God does hate the wrong choices we make,He hates them because of the trouble they bring into our lives and because they are sins and God hates all sin.Sin is against all He is but He will honor our choices no matter what they are so Gods love limits his interfering in our choices.
No, God can not destroy Himself that would be selfish on His part that action would leave us without hope and His creation without purpose and this could be sinful and God hates sin and He can not sin so again Gods freewill is limited to who He is.
You are correct when you say God supposedly punishes people. God allows us to choose our eternal destiny and if we choose to be seperated from Him in this life He will honor that choice and let us have what we want in the next total seperation from Him.That is what hell is total seperation from God,also hell is a place of punishment it is not a place of punishing or torture.So if the choice is seperation He will not dishonor by forcing one to spend eternity with Him that would be torture.Please do not bring the fire thing of hell there is no fire there it is a place darkness.It is a place to think about the choices one has made in life remember wrong choices are sin and unforgiven sin is not allowed in Heaven.
It is clearly stated in the Bible that in Heaven some will receive greater rewards than others will and that there are different levels of hell.This is because God is a just God and He does not play the favorites game.Also Jesus said that the least in this life will be the first in Heaven.
Hey here is one for thought "they will not serve breakfast in hell".
Love to all in Christ Jesus
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 03, 2009, 01:58:50 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 03, 2009, 01:58:50 AM
Man of God who are you agreeing with curiosityandthecat orGodschild and your reasoning?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: McQ on May 03, 2009, 04:23:34 AM
Post by: McQ on May 03, 2009, 04:23:34 AM
Quote from: "PipeBox"Whatever he is, he enough Bible knowledge to play the part of a believer. I'd rather assume he has legitimate errata and misconceptions and try to help him rather than just hope it's a troll I'm blowing off. Even if he's a troll, he's making me look stuff up, and even under the guise of purpose, if none is truly present, it's fun. As he might say, iron sharpens iron.
Troll iron sharpens my iron.
Creationist iron sharpens my iron.
I'll dispense facts to either until they don't let me anymore.
More power to you, my friend!
I have done this dance way too many times to love it any more. But you are right. Iron sharpens iron, and you will learn from this, regardless.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 05:24:36 AM
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 05:24:36 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Quote from: "Kylyssa"It's an interesting definition of love you've got there. The love I've known has been nurturing and protective, dead set on achieving the best for the beloved ones. The love I've known has not hated the object of its love. The love I've known is not controlling or coercive. The love I've known has accepted the equality of those beloved with those that love. The love I've known has been counter to allowing suffering, it fights it tooth and nail.
Desiring to be worshiped is not love. Desiring to control and command is not love. Letting people suffer horribly is not love. Hating is not love. Being above all others is not love.
Love is humble, love is nurturing, love is kind, love makes no demands - that is the love I know.
Thats true. The lord does not hate the humans, he hates sin itself. The Bible makes it clear that God the father cannot physically stand the presence w/ a sinner. Besides, a sinner would be miserable in heaven. If you do not want to follow his laws here, what makes you think you will be happy following them in the world to come. Sin must be eradicated in order for true happiness to prevail. That is the only way for a universal peace can exist.
Then please explain god's desire to be worshiped, to control our behavior, to cause suffering, to be unequal with those he pretends to love. Why is god's love so inferior that it is not a love of equals, it is not a love of nurturing, nor the unconditional love some human parents are capable of having towards their children? Why would god make stupid little inferior pets like human beings? Since your mythology holds that god is all-powerful and all-knowing why did he create nearly powerless, ignorant, inferior creatures. Going back to the Adam and Eve story - why did god create them stupid and forbid them knowledge? What kind of sick entity would purposely cripple their children to ensure their inferiority?
It would be like human beings genetically engineering our children to be blind and have no arms or legs so they'd require us to carry them around and to feed and clean them then requiring them to beg us to do so. Then, when they soiled themselves we'd let them rot in their own feces and tell them it's their own fault for excreting even though we hadn't designed them not to.
If you read the Christian Bible, you will see that the main character is vengeful, jealous, angry, spiteful, and exceedingly cruel.
What all-knowing being would torture his most devoted servant by telling him to kill his child just to see if he'd do it when that all-knowing being could see right into Abraham's heart and see that he would if god required it. Why torture the man and the child if the outcome is already known? Why test the faithful if their hearts are already known perfectly well by the tester? This sounds more like a devil, an evil thing. A real parent would have said, "begone demon and go screw thyself for a righteous god would not torture his beloved children." Abraham bowed to an evil god. Only a cowardly parent would serve a being so evil as to demand he kill his child.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Tanker on May 03, 2009, 05:50:42 AM
Post by: Tanker on May 03, 2009, 05:50:42 AM
Quote from: "Kylyssa"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Quote from: "Kylyssa"It's an interesting definition of love you've got there. The love I've known has been nurturing and protective, dead set on achieving the best for the beloved ones. The love I've known has not hated the object of its love. The love I've known is not controlling or coercive. The love I've known has accepted the equality of those beloved with those that love. The love I've known has been counter to allowing suffering, it fights it tooth and nail.
Desiring to be worshiped is not love. Desiring to control and command is not love. Letting people suffer horribly is not love. Hating is not love. Being above all others is not love.
Love is humble, love is nurturing, love is kind, love makes no demands - that is the love I know.
Thats true. The lord does not hate the humans, he hates sin itself. The Bible makes it clear that God the father cannot physically stand the presence w/ a sinner. Besides, a sinner would be miserable in heaven. If you do not want to follow his laws here, what makes you think you will be happy following them in the world to come. Sin must be eradicated in order for true happiness to prevail. That is the only way for a universal peace can exist.
Then please explain god's desire to be worshiped, to control our behavior, to cause suffering, to be unequal with those he pretends to love. Why is god's love so inferior that it is not a love of equals, it is not a love of nurturing, nor the unconditional love some human parents are capable of having towards their children? Why would god make stupid little inferior pets like human beings? Since your mythology holds that god is all-powerful and all-knowing why did he create nearly powerless, ignorant, inferior creatures. Going back to the Adam and Eve story - why did god create them stupid and forbid them knowledge? What kind of sick entity would purposely cripple their children to ensure their inferiority?
It would be like human beings genetically engineering our children to be blind and have no arms or legs so they'd require us to carry them around and to feed and clean them then requiring them to beg us to do so. Then, when they soiled themselves we'd let them rot in their own feces and tell them it's their own fault for excreting even though we hadn't designed them not to.
If you read the Christian Bible, you will see that the main character is vengeful, jealous, angry, spiteful, and exceedingly cruel.
What all-knowing being would torture his most devoted servant by telling him to kill his child just to see if he'd do it when that all-knowing being could see right into Abraham's heart and see that he would if god required it. Why torture the man and the child if the outcome is already known? Why test the faithful if their hearts are already known perfectly well by the tester? This sounds more like a devil, an evil thing. A real parent would have said, "begone demon and go screw thyself for a righteous god would not torture his beloved children." Abraham bowed to an evil god. Only a cowardly parent would serve a being so evil as to demand he kill his child.
Very well and susinctly put, I dought I could have summed it up better or clearer if I'd had an entire week.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: BuckeyeInNC on May 03, 2009, 01:41:34 PM
Post by: BuckeyeInNC on May 03, 2009, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: "McQ"I have done this dance way too many times to love it any more. But you are right. Iron sharpens iron, and you will learn from this, regardless.
I am learning how ridiculous these bible-loving, god-fearing people truly are . . . .
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 09:12:40 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 09:12:40 PM
QuoteThen please explain god's desire to be worshipedGod is our creator, he wants to be honored like any other father would amongst his children. This is where choice comes in. No father wants to be dishonored.
Quote, to control our behavior
Human society cannot be civilized w/ out laws. In the same way, the heavenly society has laws in its government.
Quoteto cause suffering,
Satan and sin is the cause of all suffering.
Quoteto be unequal with those he pretends to love. Why is god's love so inferior that it is not a love of equals, it is not a love of nurturing, nor the unconditional love some human parents are capable of having towards their children?
12 So when He (jesus) had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
QuoteWhy would god make stupid little inferior pets like human beings?Why not?
QuoteSince your mythology holds that god is all-powerful and all-knowing why did he create nearly powerless, ignorant, inferior creaturesWe weren't ignorant, or powerless in the beginning.
QuoteGoing back to the Adam and Eve story - why did god create them stupid and forbid them knowledge? What kind of sick entity would purposely cripple their children to ensure their inferiority?The tree of knowledge was representative specifically of Good and Evil, not knowledge like 2+2 = 4.
QuoteIt would be like human beings genetically engineering our children to be blind and have no arms or legs so they'd require us to carry them around and to feed and clean them then requiring them to beg us to do so. Then, when they soiled themselves we'd let them rot in their own feces and tell them it's their own fault for excreting even though we hadn't designed them not to.see above.
QuoteIf you read the Christian Bible, you will see that the main character is vengeful, jealous, angry, spiteful, and exceedingly cruel.Whats wrong w/ anger, and jealousy when it comes to a father and his children? Vengeful against Satan and his tactics. Cruel? do not see that at all.
QuoteWhat all-knowing being would torture his most devoted servant by telling him to kill his child just to see if he'd do it when that all-knowing being could see right into Abraham's heart and see that he would if god required it. Why torture the man and the child if the outcome is already known? Why test the faithful if their hearts are already known perfectly well by the tester? This sounds more like a devil, an evil thing. A real parent would have said, "begone demon and go screw thyself for a righteous god would not torture his beloved children." Abraham bowed to an evil god. Only a cowardly parent would serve a being so evil as to demand he kill his child.
Good question that deserves an equally thought out response, therefore I will respond on a separate post.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 09:24:02 PM
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 09:24:02 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Normal fathers would be horrified if their children worshiped them.QuoteThen please explain god's desire to be worshipedGod is our creator, he wants to be honored like any other father would amongst his children. This is where choice comes in. No father wants to be dishonored.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Hitsumei on May 03, 2009, 09:25:34 PM
Post by: Hitsumei on May 03, 2009, 09:25:34 PM
Quote from: "McQ"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Have you ever looked the eyebrow ridge of a Neanderthal? Eyebrow ridge also never stops growing. Thats why old people often have big foreheads. Their just humans that lived a long time, also proof that we existed at much taller heights then we see now.
You're joking, right? That claim is so patently stupid that you must be joking.
I told you guys he was probably just a troll or sock puppet, coming in here for some laughs. No one in his right mind would try to stand behind that absurd mis-fact.
If you're not joking, MOG, I would love to see your reference for this.
Unfortunately I've heard creationists state this before, despite the astonishing amount of confirmation bias that is required to do so. It ignores the fact that we have different bone structures than Neanderthals, that they had a 20% larger body mass to brain size ratio to homo sapiens, and as homo sapiens age, their brain shrinks. They had a different culture, diet, tools, hunting practises, and their DNA has demonstrated that they diverged from our ancestry around eight hundred thousand years ago, long before homo sapiens were around. Most importantly though, we have the remains of Neanderthal children and babies.
It also ignores the other eleven hominid species.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
Post by: Kylyssa on May 03, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"No good father is jealous of his children or who they show affection to. No good father kills his children for disobedience. It is wrong to act out of anger towards your children. This god would be an evil father. Were it a human parent, we'd give it the death penalty for again and again killing its children.QuoteIf you read the Christian Bible, you will see that the main character is vengeful, jealous, angry, spiteful, and exceedingly cruel.Whats wrong w/ anger, and jealousy when it comes to a father and his children? Vengeful against Satin and his tactics. Cruel? do not see that at all.
Under no circumstance is it OK to slaughter your children for disobedience. It must be confusing living with such an abusive "parent" threatening them. No wonder Christians commit more crimes per capita than non-theists!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 10:30:39 PM
Post by: PipeBox on May 03, 2009, 10:30:39 PM
Damn satin and satin's evil tactics.
Satin has fooled us to the point we can no longer see satin's influence.
But now I give you photographic proof of the existence of satin:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.luxurybeddingblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F11%2Fsatin_v03.jpg&hash=06a4d91a478dc94433e134d0759149a242de8f0c)
I'm sorry, I'll be back with a normal post, but the spelling error demanded address. :D
Satin has fooled us to the point we can no longer see satin's influence.
But now I give you photographic proof of the existence of satin:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.luxurybeddingblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F11%2Fsatin_v03.jpg&hash=06a4d91a478dc94433e134d0759149a242de8f0c)
I'm sorry, I'll be back with a normal post, but the spelling error demanded address. :D
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 10:32:12 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 10:32:12 PM
QuoteWhat all-knowing being would torture his most devoted servant by telling him to kill his child just to see if he'd do it when that all-knowing being could see right into Abraham's heart and see that he would if god required it. Why torture the man and the child if the outcome is already known? Why test the faithful if their hearts are already known perfectly well by the tester? This sounds more like a devil, an evil thing. A real parent would have said, "begone demon and go screw thyself for a righteous god would not torture his beloved children." Abraham bowed to an evil god. Only a cowardly parent would serve a being so evil as to demand he kill his child.
The sooner you understand that the Bible was written for our sake, the the events of the old testament make sense.
Little background,
God promised Abraham
QuoteGenesis 17:5
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.
Now clinging to the promise made by God, Abraham and his wife Sarah was attempting to have a child. But no matter how much they tried they were not able to. Sarah being old at this point thought it was not possible. Therefor, she took matters in her own hands and convinced Abraham to use the servant Hagar as a surrogate mother (the first mistake, was not clinging on to Gods promise.) This brought spite and envy amongst the two women in Abraham's household (first consequence of this sin). Moving on, an Angel of the Lord appeared and promised Abraham that Sarah will begot a son.
QuoteGenesis 17:17
Then Abraham fell on his face (bowed in worship) and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?â€
QuoteGenesis 18 :10-1510 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.â€
(Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?â€
13 And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.â€
15 But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,†for she was afraid.
QuoteGE 1:11 And the LORD visited Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him
NOW PAY ATTENTION Your about to see where the Jewish(Hebrew) scripture and the Christian (Greek) gospels compliment each other in a way many Christians are not aware of (this is just one of many). Take note of the bold caption.
Old Testament (Hebrew)
QuoteGenesis 221 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!â€
And he said, “Here I am.â€
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.â€
New Testament (Greek)
QuoteJohn 1:18.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him
QuoteJohn 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Old Testament (Hebrew)
QuoteGE 22: 6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together.
New Testament (Greek)
QuoteMatthew 27:32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.
Old Testament (Hebrew)
QuoteGE 227 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!â€
And he said, “Here I am, my son.â€
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?â€
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.â€
New Testament (Greek)
QuoteJohn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Old Testament Hebrew
Quote11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!â€
So he said, “Here I am.â€
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.â€
Quote13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns
New Testament (Greek)
QuoteJohn 19:5
Then Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe.
QuoteSo Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided.â€
Indeed, the Lord has provided. The more truth is resisted, the easier it becomes to harden your heart.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 10:36:13 PM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 03, 2009, 10:36:13 PM
Quote from: "PipeBox"Damn satin and satin's evil tactics.
Satin has fooled us to the point we can no longer see satin's influence.
But now I give you photographic proof of the existence of satin:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.luxurybeddingblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F11%2Fsatin_v03.jpg&hash=06a4d91a478dc94433e134d0759149a242de8f0c)
I'm sorry, I'll be back with a normal post, but the spelling error demanded address. :D
No need to apologize. That was ripe for the picking.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 03, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 03, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"NOW PAY ATTENTION Your about to see where the Jewish(Hebrew) scripture and the Christian (Greek) gospels compliment each other in a way many Christians are not aware of (this is just one of many). Take note of the bold caption.Oh for chrissake... of COURSE the New Testament complements the Old Testament... it was written to prove Old Testament prophecies' coming true! :| I'm sold. Call Richard and tell him I'm off the cricket team.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 04, 2009, 12:04:25 AM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 04, 2009, 12:04:25 AM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"NOW PAY ATTENTION Your about to see where the Jewish(Hebrew) scripture and the Christian (Greek) gospels compliment each other in a way many Christians are not aware of (this is just one of many). Take note of the bold caption.Oh for chrissake... of COURSE the New Testament complements the Old Testament... it was written to prove Old Testament prophecies' coming true! :| I'm sold. Call Richard and tell him I'm off the cricket team.
Wow, the same conspiracy you accuse creationist of using against science your using against scripture.
Its a vast conspiracy amongst many different authors to fulfill old testament prophecy and have the Jews reject that fulfillment at the same time.
Please bear in mind, the old testament prophecy is not that obvious. This is not even considering the prophecy fulfilled outside the Bible. And its just in recent times we are discovering more of how old testament prophecy was fulfilled. Think about it for a sec, if its that difficult to ascertain prophecy from reading it, how much more to fabricate it. Not even if you tried could you make this stuff up and be historically accurate at the same time. Let alone w/multiple authors who would have no purpose in doing so. Sorry man, got to answer the who what when why and how to even get me to consider your point.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 04, 2009, 12:35:36 AM
Post by: PipeBox on May 04, 2009, 12:35:36 AM
The same conspiracy scientists accuse religion of? Excuse me?
Religious folks have their "soul" invested in their religion. They depend on it being right for their eternal existence or spiritual fulfillment.
Science is depended on to describe reality, the whole point being to describe reality. So whenever the science of a day is demonstrably wrong, it is in the best interest of the scientists to update. There is no holy, unalterable dogma in science.
If God himself came to Earth tomorrow and told everyone the Bible was a work of Satan, you know what all the Christians would say? They'd say it was Satan trying to trick them. Except this will never happen because your deity and your devil are only real to those who believe, insomuch as you've been unable to verify either for the past 2000 years. Christians claim it's supposed to be this way. And that's all they have, their claim. Because they can't back that up, either. The only thing that agrees entirely with their holy book is them (the literalists). But this has been the norm of all religion since the Egyptians.
Me, I'll stick to the facts I can definitely know. Magnets don't stop working if you don't believe in them. Prayers apparently never have if you stop believing in them. Take it from me. But then, you very well may think me deceived. Again, with nothing to back that up.
I do not presume to know everything. There may be some things that are unknowable. I'm not proud enough to claim I've got the right answers for all things we don't know. I'm not proud enough to claim I know somebody who does. I'm not proud enough to claim that something out there wants me to know. And I'm definitely not proud enough to claim I hold a book that has all the facts but that I just don't understand it enough to give them to you. But forget the pride. I don't even hope that I do. I'll roll with the punches. If I'm wrong about something tomorrow, I'll just try to get right.
Religious folks have their "soul" invested in their religion. They depend on it being right for their eternal existence or spiritual fulfillment.
Science is depended on to describe reality, the whole point being to describe reality. So whenever the science of a day is demonstrably wrong, it is in the best interest of the scientists to update. There is no holy, unalterable dogma in science.
If God himself came to Earth tomorrow and told everyone the Bible was a work of Satan, you know what all the Christians would say? They'd say it was Satan trying to trick them. Except this will never happen because your deity and your devil are only real to those who believe, insomuch as you've been unable to verify either for the past 2000 years. Christians claim it's supposed to be this way. And that's all they have, their claim. Because they can't back that up, either. The only thing that agrees entirely with their holy book is them (the literalists). But this has been the norm of all religion since the Egyptians.
Me, I'll stick to the facts I can definitely know. Magnets don't stop working if you don't believe in them. Prayers apparently never have if you stop believing in them. Take it from me. But then, you very well may think me deceived. Again, with nothing to back that up.
I do not presume to know everything. There may be some things that are unknowable. I'm not proud enough to claim I've got the right answers for all things we don't know. I'm not proud enough to claim I know somebody who does. I'm not proud enough to claim that something out there wants me to know. And I'm definitely not proud enough to claim I hold a book that has all the facts but that I just don't understand it enough to give them to you. But forget the pride. I don't even hope that I do. I'll roll with the punches. If I'm wrong about something tomorrow, I'll just try to get right.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Kylyssa on May 04, 2009, 12:57:55 AM
Post by: Kylyssa on May 04, 2009, 12:57:55 AM
So it was OK that god tortured Abraham because he said, "Just kidding!" at the end?
But what about killing your children for disobedience? Would you do that?
But what about killing your children for disobedience? Would you do that?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: McQ on May 04, 2009, 01:03:34 AM
Post by: McQ on May 04, 2009, 01:03:34 AM
Quote from: "McQ"Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Have you ever looked the eyebrow ridge of a Neanderthal? Eyebrow ridge also never stops growing. Thats why old people often have big foreheads. Their just humans that lived a long time, also proof that we existed at much taller heights then we see now.
You're joking, right? That claim is so patently stupid that you must be joking.
I told you guys he was probably just a troll or sock puppet, coming in here for some laughs. No one in his right mind would try to stand behind that absurd mis-fact.
If you're not joking, MOG, I would love to see your reference for this.
Hey, MOG! Well done on side skipping this atrocious and fatally damaging error on your part. It's just like you to ignore your mistakes and continue with your tripe.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 04, 2009, 01:33:36 AM
Post by: Man-ofGod on May 04, 2009, 01:33:36 AM
Quote from: "PipeBox"The same conspiracy scientists accuse religion of? Excuse me?I said
QuoteWow, the same conspiracy you accuse creationist of using against science your using against scripture.
QuoteReligious folks have their "soul" invested in their religion. They depend on it being right for their eternal existence or spiritual fulfillment.
Science is depended on to describe reality, the whole point being to describe reality. So whenever the science of a day is demonstrably wrong, it is in the best interest of the scientists to update. There is no holy, unalterable dogma in science.
If God himself came to Earth tomorrow and told everyone the Bible was a work of Satan, you know what all the Christians would say? They'd say it was Satan trying to trick them. Except this will never happen because your deity and your devil are only real to those who believe, insomuch as you've been unable to verify either for the past 2000 years. Christians claim it's supposed to be this way. And that's all they have, their claim. Because they can't back that up, either. The only thing that agrees entirely with their holy book is them (the literalists). But this has been the norm of all religion since the Egyptians.
Me, I'll stick to the facts I can definitely know. Magnets don't stop working if you don't believe in them. Prayers apparently never have if you stop believing in them. Take it from me. But then, you very well may think me deceived. Again, with nothing to back that up.
I do not presume to know everything. There may be some things that are unknowable. I'm not proud enough to claim I've got the right answers for all things we don't know. I'm not proud enough to claim I know somebody who does. I'm not proud enough to claim that something out there wants me to know. And I'm definitely not proud enough to claim I hold a book that has all the facts but that I just don't understand it enough to give them to you. But forget the pride. I don't even hope that I do. I'll roll with the punches. If I'm wrong about something tomorrow, I'll just try to get right.
Nobody can even concede one point. For bunch of people who claim to be oh so logical, your incredibly illogical when it comes to the Bible. Their is not much that can be done.
Can you agree with one thing that I said?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: VanReal on May 04, 2009, 02:19:26 AM
Post by: VanReal on May 04, 2009, 02:19:26 AM
Look! This 1200 year old lizard also has a huge brow ridge!! He must be a cross between iguana and neanderthal.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.geocities.com%2Fdinosaurs_study%2FDINOS088.JPG&hash=fb8e254f85b349a18085a1ca33b84db055b804c9)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.geocities.com%2Fdinosaurs_study%2FDINOS088.JPG&hash=fb8e254f85b349a18085a1ca33b84db055b804c9)
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 04, 2009, 10:27:56 AM
Post by: PipeBox on May 04, 2009, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Nobody can even concede one point. For bunch of people who claim to be oh so logical, your incredibly illogical when it comes to the Bible. Their is not much that can be done.
Can you agree with one thing that I said?
Sure: I don't think it is likely the books of the Bible were written with conspiratorial intent. I also happen to find an accusation of scientific conspiracy so laughable and beyond comparison to religious conspiracy that I wrote you a post detailing why. I didn't say it was a religious conspiracy, I was irked at your implication that such a conspiracy in science was possible, or even as likely as a biblical conspiracy.
Again, I agree that a Biblical conspiracy is unlikely. Am I still being illogical?
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 04, 2009, 07:40:00 PM
Post by: Godschild on May 04, 2009, 07:40:00 PM
Quote from: PipeBoxIf God Himself came to earth tommorrow and told everyone that the Bible was a work of satan,you know what all the christians would say?They'd say it was satan trying to trick them.Except this will never happen because your deity and your devil are only real to those who believe
PipeBox are you trying to use the Bible here.It is in the Bible that satan will stand in the Temple and claim that he is God and that the world will believe him.The Bible also states that the elect would be fooled if that were possible.The elect being the true christians will not be fool because of one very simplefact,we believe.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Hitsumei on May 04, 2009, 11:42:12 PM
Post by: Hitsumei on May 04, 2009, 11:42:12 PM
Why will Satan even do what the bible says he'll do? I wouldn't if I were him, I'd come up with a different plan that isn't spoiled by being written in a book just about everyone owns.
Seems to me that the only thing Satan needs to do to win, is to not do what the bible says he will. Also, why does he torture people, and agree to follow through with putting people in specific places in hell that god deems certain sinners belong in? Why doesn't he compete for souls with bribery? What does he gain by torture and punishment for things god doesn't like, but presumably he does?
For someone who's name means "adversary", he certainly is accommodating.
Seems to me that the only thing Satan needs to do to win, is to not do what the bible says he will. Also, why does he torture people, and agree to follow through with putting people in specific places in hell that god deems certain sinners belong in? Why doesn't he compete for souls with bribery? What does he gain by torture and punishment for things god doesn't like, but presumably he does?
For someone who's name means "adversary", he certainly is accommodating.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: rlrose328 on May 05, 2009, 12:01:04 AM
Post by: rlrose328 on May 05, 2009, 12:01:04 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"I know exactly what you mean. I thought I been their done that when I was a Catholic turned atheist. I just didn't have any of the truth or misconstrued versions of it. Once I learned the truth, praise the lord my mind was still open enough to consider it again.
This is typical Christian pomposity. "I have the truth and once YOU have the truth, you will see God as well."
Many of US once "knew the truth" as we were brainwashed to believe... luckily, I realized fact and truth are two different things. I prefer real facts to manufactured truth.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: rlrose328 on May 05, 2009, 12:12:04 AM
Post by: rlrose328 on May 05, 2009, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: "Man-ofGod"Quote from: "rlrose328"I, like most here, have identified as Christian for a period of time in my life (having been brainwashed from birth), so I don't need to discuss your stories with you. I'm happy you've found what makes you comfortable. I have found that as well. Have fun here, though. :hide2:
This happens a lot for those born in the faith. I observe this and I am cognizant when raising my own kids. You been taught the what, when, but not the why and how. Its a formula for failure. And when you go off into the secular world, you learn their version of why and how.
First, do not file me in your "failed Christian" folder with all of the others you've obviously studied. I was taught the what, when, why and how based on what they believe. You can teach your children the why and how all you like, but it bears little resemblance to the real world. Yes, once I got out into the real world, the why and how were irrelevant. Despite trying to do what I'd been taught, most of the other "Christians" with whom I came into contact were doing whatever the hell they wanted to do... cheat, lie, steal, get ahead by whatever means possible... then run to church on Sunday to worship. I did know one very special Christian who lived as I'd always been taught. But she was the exception to the rule.
Hardly ANYONE out there is a "true Christian" that is always talked about, including those accusing others of not being "true Christians." My own mother is quite bigoted, generalizing all people based on their origin of birth. I know that's not right... I also know that other than that, she's about as true a Christian as I've ever known. So she did teach me the why and how. I chose to do my own thing once I realized that in this world, the why and how are largely irrelevant.
And I get very tired of that reasoning being applied to atheists, btw. It's the "we're better than you" argument and it's quite disgusting.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 05, 2009, 01:00:18 AM
Post by: PipeBox on May 05, 2009, 01:00:18 AM
Quote from: "Godschild"PipeBox are you trying to use the Bible here.It is in the Bible that satan will stand in the Temple and claim that he is God and that the world will believe him.The Bible also states that the elect would be fooled if that were possible.The elect being the true christians will not be fool because of one very simplefact,we believe.
At risk of infuriating you, if I were Satan, I would claim just what the Bible says, so that if the real God did show up he would have one hell of a time (pun) trying to convince people that their revered book, the great idol, is not what it claims. After all, how might God prove himself to you if the Bible is in error? You have only the strong belief that it is not, and if you're not willing to examine that belief, what hope would you have of knowing the truth short of God forcing the truth into your mind?
I believe CS Lewis once spoke of the minor good contributing to a greater evil. The simple good of making the Christians happy during life would be a drop in the bucket to the complex evil of getting them all damned.
This, among many other reasons, is why I no longer want to play religious roulette. If a god exists and it wants my pathetic attention for some reason, then I'll let it convince me. Otherwise, I'll be learning about that god's creation rather than claiming I already know courtesy of some book written by men. Men edit books. Men can't move the stars.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 05, 2009, 09:04:28 PM
Post by: Godschild on May 05, 2009, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: "Hitsumei"Why will Satan even do what the bible says he'll do? I wouldn't if I were him, I'd come up with a different plan that isn't spoiled by being written in a book just about everyone owns.
Seems to me that the only thing Satan needs to do to win, is to not do what the bible says he will. Also, why does he torture people, and agree to follow through with putting people in specific places in hell that god deems certain sinners belong in? Why doesn't he compete for souls with bribery? What does he gain by torture and punishment for things god doesn't like, but presumably he does?
For someone who's name means "adversary", he certainly is accommodatingQuote from: "PipeBox"At risk of infuriating you, if I were Satan, I would claim just what the Bible says, so that if the real God did show up he would have one hell of a time (pun) trying to convince people that their revered book, the great idol, is not what it claims. After all, how might God prove himself to you if the Bible is in error? You have only the strong belief that it is not, and if you're not willing to examine that belief, what hope would you have of knowing the truth short of God forcing the truth into your mind?
If I had the answers to all these questions you guys still would not believe.Hitsumei why didn't satan stop Christ from going to the cross,oh he tried but he failed. Satan is so full of himself he is blind to many things but in the end his rage will over take any sense he has.He knows he is defeated and he will go after his last hu-rah.Satan is so filled with evil and hate that he has no real control over what he will ultimately do and no God want make him do it.Satans only objective is to take as many down as he can,he knows the war is lost,all he wants to do is hurt God.Yes satan has read the Bible and knows it well that is why he tried to stop Christ from going to the cross and he knows that God the one he use to serve is all knowing and the end will be as it's been foretold and the evil rage thats in him will cause him to follow that very path.
He does bribe and it works I know personally,but thank God I listened to the Holy Spirit and received Christ into my life.Satans bribery is suttle if he came right up to someone and promised them something good they would see him for who he is and run straight to God. He disguises all he does,all he wants now is to take as many with him as possible,maybe it's because he believes it will be of some comfort for him in hell.
PipeBox it is unfortunate that some do idolize the Bible when they should be using it as a study guide that's why it was given to us by the LORD.Don't you think he has already thought of what you suggested and many other ways to defeat God,I do,yet here he is in a no win situation...doomed no way out...so all he can do is take as many down as he can.
to all here's lookin at ya!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Hitsumei on May 05, 2009, 11:36:52 PM
Post by: Hitsumei on May 05, 2009, 11:36:52 PM
Satan is suppose to be the most intelligent angel, you're describing an emotional, and irrational being, not an intelligent one. Like all conspiracy theories, they rely on the conspirators both being ingenious, and irrational fools simultaneously.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 07, 2009, 12:25:18 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 07, 2009, 12:25:18 AM
Quote from: "Hitsumei"Satan is suppose to be the most intelligent angel, you're describing an emotional, and irrational being, not an intelligent one. Like all conspiracy theories, they rely on the conspirators both being ingenious, and irrational fools simultaneously.
Satan "Lucifer" was one of Gods top angels.Lucifer walked with God in Eden and other places and he was a very powerful angel...but he and all the angels were created with a freewill.To have freewill you must have emotions and yes I am describing an emotional and irrational being thats why he made such a bad choice.I do not understand why Lucifer made such a bad choice,why would one want to seperate themselves from God after living with the One who created them,how is it that Lucifer could believe he could overthrow God the one so powerful that He created Lucifer that is beyond my imagination? Please remember at this point in time there was no hell or the thought of hell so that means that Lucifer wasn't under any kind of threat,if you will,to be a good boy.Lucifer exercised his right of freewill emotionally as we often do and suffered the consequences.
to all here's lookin at ya!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Hitsumei on May 07, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
Post by: Hitsumei on May 07, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
Quote from: "Godschild"...yes I am describing an emotional and irrational being...
Then you are going against Christian theology, which describes Satan as the most intelligent angel. Not irrational and emotional.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: rlrose328 on May 07, 2009, 05:33:22 PM
Post by: rlrose328 on May 07, 2009, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: "Godschild"Please remember at this point in time there was no hell or the thought of hell so that means that Lucifer wasn't under any kind of threat,if you will,to be a good boy.
Ahhhh...
So you admit that the threat of hell is used to control behavior?
THIS is why churches have children's programs and work so hard to get children into the fold... use the threat of hell early enough and any child will succomb.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 08, 2009, 03:23:42 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 08, 2009, 03:23:42 AM
Quote from: "Hitsumei"Quote from: "Godschild"...yes I am describing an emotional and irrational being...
Then you are going against Christian theology, which describes Satan as the most intelligent angel. Not irrational and emotional.
You must like picking out the little things to argue,did you not read all that I stated,apparently not because all I see is the same thing that's in your previous reply.Do you really know anything about christian theology if you did I don't think you would make such an erroneous reply.Lucifer was created with freewill and intelligences and for freewill to be valid there must be emotions involved.Lucifer used his freewill guided only by his emotions to make his very bad choice.Maybe if he had used his intelligence instead of his emotions he would not have made such a bad choice.I'm fairly sure that everyone has allowed their emotions to override their God give intelligence in making choices that wrong.I know I have.I'm fairly certain that everyone has used their intelligence to make good choices and I'm fairly certain that everyone has combined their emotions and intelligence to make rational choices.Lucifer was the created angel,he became the fallen one that is now called satan.
Quote from: "rlrose328"Quote from: "Godschild"Please remember at this point in time there was no hell or the thought of hell so that means that Lucifer wasn't under any kind of threat,if you will,to be a good boy.
Ahhhh...
So you admit that the threat of hell is used to control behavior?
THIS is why churches have children's programs and work so hard to get children into the fold...
Ahhhh...I placed the"if you will"in the above reply for nonbelievers.NO!!!! hell is not used to control behavior you make it sound like all christians brainwash childern and it's not true and to say such a thing is ignorant.To do something like that would be cruel and christians love their childern,now I know that this has happened and will probably happen in the future by a few christians and this type of christian is ignorant of what the Bible truly teaches or the same thing happened to them as children but it doesn't make it right not even close to right.We teach both sides of the question of God and hell and let the childern make their own choices it's a risk but it is only right.Why do the public schools not teach both sides of the origin of life question and then let the childern decide.Public schools want even allow anything about God so the childern can't decide on a question that doesn't have a sound scientific answer.If anyone wants to do the origin of life thing let's take it to the scientific section where it belongs.Back to the controled behavior thing why not go to a good christian church and observe what takes place we would be glad to have you just for that purpose.
to all here's lookin at ya!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: rlrose328 on May 08, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
Post by: rlrose328 on May 08, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
Quote from: "Godschild"Ahhhh...I placed the"if you will"in the above reply for nonbelievers.NO!!!! hell is not used to control behavior you make it sound like all christians brainwash childern and it's not true and to say such a thing is ignorant.
YOu may find it ignorant. I find it truthful. My son went to his friend's church with him after a sleepover. I was totally okay with it... He adores this friend, I'm good friends with the mom and she knows my lack of belief. They have a great Sunday school program... lots of arts and crafts, snack, etc. I knew my son would enjoy it.
Two days after his fun day at church, I get an email addressed to my son at his email address (no one has that address but me, his dad, and his counsins). It was a "come and have fun during our election games," a "fake" election last November. It said it would teach the kids how the "other side" fights dirty and how they can fight dirty in return. I wish I were kidding.
First, I asked my son how it came to his email address. He said they were doing a contest and they asked each kid to complete this little form asking if they had fun, if they'd like to return, and that there would be a contest for the already-member kids that whoever got their friends to turn in the most, they'd get a prize. You might see that as friendly competition... I see it as manipulative to a child whose parents aren't present. So my son filled it out and put his email address.
Second, they have no right to send my child anything without my permission and I find it suspect that they asked an 8yo for his email address and not that of his parents.
Third, I find their pseudo-election thing a little offensive.
My main problem is that kids this age don't know any better. They will believe whatever the nearest authority figure tells them is the truth. You'll tell your kids that god is real and that he has to treat bad people poorly so they'll learn. It IS brainwashing... mostly harmless, but I don't agree with programming children with anything belief-related. Facts, yes... sprituality, no. To them, it's all "if I behave, I'll go to heaven. If I don't behave, god will be mad at me and I'll go to hell." That is not how to raise children.
Quote from: "Godschild"To do something like that would be cruel and christians love their childern,now I know that this has happened and will probably happen in the future by a few christians and this type of christian is ignorant of what the Bible truly teaches or the same thing happened to them as children but it doesn't make it right not even close to right.
I understand Christians love their children... that much I do know. But... using scare tactics, like hell, is uncalled for. It teaches children to go around the system to keep from making god angry. The "strong father" model. It is counterproductive in the end. You say they are ignorant of the bible... but that's what the bible teaches! It was "inspire" by a being who wiped out all the people on earth because he was mad at their behavior!
Quote from: "Godschild"We teach both sides of the question of God and hell and let the childern make their own choices it's a risk but it is only right.Why do the public schools not teach both sides of the origin of life question and then let the childern decide.
You are honestly going to tell me that you teach both sides of the question of god... like there MAY be a god or there may NOT be a god? Or got is happy when they are good but mad when they are bad? Two very different concepts there.
As far as "both sides" of the origin question, in what class do you want that taught? If in science class, I'd have to say it can't be done because the biblical creation story has no science to back it up... not TRUE scientific FACT. If you want to discuss the creation story in the UPPER grades (HS and up) in a religious studies class or even a literature class, I'd have no problem with that. But it is not science.
Quote from: "Godschild"Public schools want even allow anything about God so the childern can't decide on a question that doesn't have a sound scientific answer.If anyone wants to do the origin of life thing let's take it to the scientific section where it belongs.
Of course public schools won't allow anything about god. Do you want them to teach Islam as well? And Judaism? And all of the other hundreds of religions on earth today? Or just the Christian got? Allow one and you must allow them all. If you want children taught about god, take them to church. But the Constitution states that the government (which provides money to public schools) cannot play favorites with religion, so all or none, the government is forced to choose none, rightly so.
Quote from: "Godschild"Back to the controled behavior thing why not go to a good christian church and observe what takes place we would be glad to have you just for that purpose.
Sweetie, I was raised in a good Christian Lutheran church. I've read the bible. I've observed what goes on in a church and what the people are like. I'll take nonbelief any day of the week.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: Godschild on May 10, 2009, 12:35:15 AM
Post by: Godschild on May 10, 2009, 12:35:15 AM
Quote from: "rirose328"YOu may find it ignorant. I find it truthful. My son went to his friend's church with him after a sleepover. I was totally okay with it... He adores this friend, I'm good friends with the mom and she knows my lack of belief. They have a great Sunday school program... lots of arts and crafts, snack, etc. I knew my son would enjoy it.
This church your son went to that has lots of arts,crafts,snacks and ect.if they are not incorperating Bible study with these things then they are not being responsible with the childern,responsibility God has given them.Going to church is not only fun and games.I also like the fun and games but Bible study must be a part of the program.I hope that he did enjoy his visit.
Quote from: "rirose328"Two days after his fun day at church, I get an email addressed to my son at his email address (no one has that address but me, his dad, and his counsins). It was a "come and have fun during our election games," a "fake" election last November. It said it would teach the kids how the "other side" fights dirty and how they can fight dirty in return. I wish I were kidding.
I wish you were kidding too,I do not like it when a church tries to use those kinds of tactics it's not the way christians should act.As I said in my other reply I know some do.
Quote from: "rirose328"First, I asked my son how it came to his email address. He said they were doing a contest and they asked each kid to complete this little form asking if they had fun, if they'd like to return, and that there would be a contest for the already-member kids that whoever got their friends to turn in the most, they'd get a prize. You might see that as friendly competition... I see it as manipulative to a child whose parents aren't present. So my son filled it out and put his email address.
Second, they have no right to send my child anything without my permission and I find it suspect that they asked an 8yo for his email address and not that of his parents.
Third, I find their pseudo-election thing a little offensive.
I would have been mad to if any organization had done such a thing without the parents permission that is totally out of line.It's good to hear that you monitor your childs E-mail,so many parents don't and not to do so can have harmful results.Now about the forms I think they can be a good tool for the church to use as long as the questions are stated so young childern can understand them and they are resonable questions.When childern tell what they liked and disliked the church can adjust its programs.
I do not believe I would care for such an election exercize either if the church did what you stated they did thats not being responsible with the childern.
Quote from: "rirose328"My main problem is that kids this age don't know any better. They will believe whatever the nearest authority figure tells them is the truth. You'll tell your kids that god is real and that he has to treat bad people poorly so they'll learn. It IS brainwashing... mostly harmless, but I don't agree with programming children with anything belief-related. Facts, yes... sprituality, no. To them, it's all "if I behave, I'll go to heaven. If I don't behave, god will be mad at me and I'll go to hell." That is not how to raise children.
I agree that childern are vunerable and impressionable and we need to be very careful how we teach them.Of coarse we tell childern that God is real what else would christians teach other.We[my church]do not teach that God treats people badly.We also do not believe in programming a child for any reason that would be a violation of their freewill which would be wrong.We do teach that there are consequences to making wrong choices and that God may allow one to suffer through the consequences from bad choices,and we teach that God is a loving God and will help them through the consequences of wrong choices.Teaching a child or adult that being good will get them in heaven or that being bad will send them to hell would be false teaching.What should be taught to people is that your choice of either having Christ in your life or not having Christ in your life is what makes the difference.
Quote from: "Godschild"To do something like that would be cruel and christians love their childern,now I know that this has happened and will probably happen in the future by a few christians and this type of christian is ignorant of what the Bible truly teaches or the same thing happened to them as children but it doesn't make it right not even close to right.
Quote from: "rirose328"I understand Christians love their children... that much I do know. But... using scare tactics, like hell, is uncalled for. It teaches children to go around the system to keep from making god angry. The "strong father" model. It is counterproductive in the end. You say they are ignorant of the bible... but that's what the bible teaches! It was "inspire" by a being who wiped out all the people on earth because he was mad at their behavior!
Let's get this scare tactic thing straight,I do know some churches use scare tactics and that is wrong.We[my church]do not use scare tactics we want childern and adults to come to Christ because He loves them and this is what we teach.We know when people choose Christ out of fear of hell that they will have difficulties in the future with what and why the believe,I know this personally and I struggled for a long time until God led me to a good church with great teaching,thanks be to God my Savior.This is why we do not teach fear and it's why we teach love.We do teach about hell and that it is a place of punishment.We do not teachthat hell is a place of punishing that would imply that God tortures and that's not true He is the God of love.You will not find much in the Old Testament about hell but you will in the New Testament and the reason Jesus taught more about hell than He did about heaven,the reason He did was so people would know that God desires all to be in heaven with Him forever than to be eternally seperated from Him.So you see the Bible teaches that God is love and desires that all would choose to be in heaven forever with Him.Now about the great flood,God did not destroy everyone because of their behavior.All the people of the earth had become evil in their hearts so evil that they were thinking of new ways in which they could be evil and new ways to be evil to each other.God knew that their hearts had become so evil that there was no possibility of redeeming them and this mad God sad.Mankind had become so evil God was sorry He had created man so He destroyed all but Noah and his family to rid the earth of evil so that mankind could have a fresh start and hope for the future.All the childern that I know see God as a good God for ridding the earth of such terrible evil,kind of like a hero.Kids want heros if they did not then there would be a lot of comic book writers out of job,I know that He's my hero and so much more.
I need to stop for now I will finish this reply:
to all here's lookin at ya!
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 10, 2009, 02:15:14 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on May 10, 2009, 02:15:14 PM
Quote from: "Godschild"All the childern that I know see God as a good God for ridding the earth of such terrible evil,kind of like a hero.Kids want heros if they did not then there would be a lot of comic book writers out of job,That's the dangerous part. God's not a hero. Not even close.
QuoteI know that He's my hero and so much more.That makes me sad. It's the only word I can think to use. Just... sad.
Title: Re: I want to help.
Post by: PipeBox on May 10, 2009, 08:24:52 PM
Post by: PipeBox on May 10, 2009, 08:24:52 PM
I don't know what to say about the flood anymore...
I'm sorry you didn't take my post to be a serious assessment of the flood story.
Ask yourself what the sole thing backing it up is. Or if you find any other evidence of a global flood, please, share it with me.
The only thing I can think to add to all of this, and talk of any disaster, is to ask if God couldn't find a more humane way (isn't that ironic) to execute the people he was unhappy with. Take all the people of the Earth in Noah's day, assuming the biblical story is true for just a moment. God sees that all the people are wicked, and they will seldom do more than further their wickedness, against nature and themselves (surely GOD wouldn't feel set at risk by man), and decides to start over. He decides all men except the one family must perish, down to the last child, to put a fine point on it. And he decides that the mode of his extermination, the method of his execution, will be none other than drowning. Drowning every last animal, poisoning the fish, and letting birds who were not seaworthy drown after the most prolonged, desperate exertion of their lives. Every man, woman, and child would suffer the same nightmarish fate. Because they were too evil for God's liking.
Now let's assume that story is entirely true. God is a sadistic monster.
Fortunately, that story is just as fictional as the Epic of Gilgamesh. I'll put it to you simply. Scorpions have no nostrils, Noah wouldn't have boarded them, they cannot swim, and nothing else looks close enough to their form for even the most daring creationist to claim they "adapted" within their distinct "kind" after the flood.
I don't think I have any evidence you will accept, though.
I'm sorry you didn't take my post to be a serious assessment of the flood story.
Ask yourself what the sole thing backing it up is. Or if you find any other evidence of a global flood, please, share it with me.
The only thing I can think to add to all of this, and talk of any disaster, is to ask if God couldn't find a more humane way (isn't that ironic) to execute the people he was unhappy with. Take all the people of the Earth in Noah's day, assuming the biblical story is true for just a moment. God sees that all the people are wicked, and they will seldom do more than further their wickedness, against nature and themselves (surely GOD wouldn't feel set at risk by man), and decides to start over. He decides all men except the one family must perish, down to the last child, to put a fine point on it. And he decides that the mode of his extermination, the method of his execution, will be none other than drowning. Drowning every last animal, poisoning the fish, and letting birds who were not seaworthy drown after the most prolonged, desperate exertion of their lives. Every man, woman, and child would suffer the same nightmarish fate. Because they were too evil for God's liking.
Now let's assume that story is entirely true. God is a sadistic monster.
Fortunately, that story is just as fictional as the Epic of Gilgamesh. I'll put it to you simply. Scorpions have no nostrils, Noah wouldn't have boarded them, they cannot swim, and nothing else looks close enough to their form for even the most daring creationist to claim they "adapted" within their distinct "kind" after the flood.
I don't think I have any evidence you will accept, though.