Happy Atheist Forum

Feel free to take this quick survey if you would like to. It is for a class I am taking. No names or anything are part of the survey; the results are simply analyzed. Thanks.

1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

Why is it every month or so a new member has a perfectly "innocent" survey they want us to take. Most of these previous poster admit to being Theists or won't admit to any religious belief. Claiming to be an Atheist is a little new (and dishonest not to mention a sin if you're not). What class is this for? What is it supposed to represent? Why do these "innocent" little quizes have the same questions and why do they make me feel like there is somthing a little underhanded about them? If you are an atheist and you really have no ultierior motive. I might be willing to answer this but It's not an original ploy in any way to post 1 of these quizes on this forum or any other atheist forum. I know this sounds a bit parranoid but I've learned from long expeirience that these surveys are rarely as innocent as they try to appear.

You should also make your first post in the introduction sub-forum. We also have no problem with theists of any kind on here we invite them to share and give any proof for god they may have. I know you have posted as an Atheist but like I said most of these little quizzes are usually posted by Thesits so it make me a bit reluctant to belive that claim.

Quote from: "mbell31"Feel free to take this quick survey if you would like to. It is for a class I am taking. No names or anything are part of the survey; the results are simply analyzed. Thanks.

Sure thing.

Quote1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

Sure. I think that it is true that water boils at a specific temperature no matter what anyone's opinion on the subject is.

Quote2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

Yes. I don't think people should hate someone for arbitrary reasons because it causes unnecessary pain and suffering, and is just all around unpleasant.

Quote3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

No. If we didn't judge other people's beliefs and actions then there would be anarchy. A working society requires a certain amount of judging each other in order to negotiate social contracts, laws, and guidelines. I happen to like society.

Quote4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

Better, slowly and surely. Because I'm extremely liberal, and it seems to me that society is moving ever so slowly towards the left. Conservatives almost certainly have the opposite opinion for the same reason though!

Quote5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

To live the best that one can, in order to build a strong, and righteous character.

Quote6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

I don't know. Because I lack the sufficient knowledge. I am not lucky enough to have had the knowledge revealed to me as many people claim. I do hope something though!

Quote7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

I think that God is mysterious, but good. I don't have special knowledge of God either, but I love life, and I love nature, and the world, and I try to love everyone in it. Even if I can't explain some of the evils I see, I think that God has to be good, because of the far greater goods that I see.

Fun survey!  

Quote from: "Tanker"I know this sounds a bit parranoid but I've learned from long expeirience that these surveys are rarely as innocent as they try to appear.

Meh, who cares. Just have fun.

Quote from: "mbell31"1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

Yes, I do believe that. A few examples of things that are true regardless of my opinion: American Idol will continue to get higher viewership than NOVA, Israelis will continue to hate Palestinians and visa versa, and no matter how much I try to be humble I will always be an arrogant bastard. Why? Mine is not to question why; mine is but to do and die.

Quote from: "mbell31"2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

No, it's not wrong. I'm all for the "cleansing" of stupid. Stupid is an ethnicity, isn't it? I mean, it's inherited, studies show it's related to region, and even though there's no biological signpost it's obviously there, right?

Quote from: "mbell31"3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

It is not wrong to judge other peoples' beliefs. Some beliefs are just plain dumb, and actions informed by dumb beliefs are also not wrong to judge since they are, by definition, also dumb and therefore perfectly acceptable as targets of ridicule. Why? Because I say so, and I'm not dumb.

Quote from: "mbell31"4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

The horse chestnut.

Quote from: "mbell31"5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

42.

Quote from: "mbell31"6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

They poop themselves. They never show that part on television or in movies. See, it's all got to do with sphincters...

Quote from: "mbell31"7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

Oh yes, god very much does is exist. And he has a message for everyone. It's The Word.

What? I'm so sorry, I thought you knew. I thought everyone had heard about The Word of a certain avian variety.

If you haven't heard, then, please let me be the first to tell you that...

A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b-bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word!
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages33.fotki.com%2Fv1141%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1232376787046-vi.gif&hash=e209261924c47a1a9b87eafcb1795c22fdeb9065)

Papa-ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Oom-oom-oom-oom-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, papa-oom-oom-oom
Oom-ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-a-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, ooma-mow-mow
Papa-oom-oom-oom-oom-ooma-mow-mow
Oom-oom-oom-oom-ooma-mow-mow
Ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, ooma-mow-mow

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"42.

Now, now. I believe that is the answer to not only life, but the universe and everything.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Now, now. I believe that is the answer to not only life, but the universe and everything.

Yeah, the question was about the purpose about life, but I figured, hey, who am I to argue with Deep Thought?

QuoteWhy is it every month or so a new member has a perfectly "innocent" survey they want us to take. Most of these previous poster admit to being Theists or won't admit to any religious belief. Claiming to be an Atheist is a little new (and dishonest not to mention a sin if you're not). What class is this for? What is it supposed to represent? Why do these "innocent" little quizes have the same questions and why do they make me feel like there is somthing a little underhanded about them? If you are an atheist and you really have no ultierior motive. I might be willing to answer this but It's not an original ploy in any way to post 1 of these quizes on this forum or any other atheist forum. I know this sounds a bit parranoid but I've learned from long expeirience that these surveys are rarely as innocent as they try to appear.

You should also make your first post in the introduction sub-forum. We also have no problem with theists of any kind on here we invite them to share and give any proof for god they may have. I know you have posted as an Atheist but like I said most of these little quizzes are usually posted by Thesits so it make me a bit reluctant to belive that claim.

Hi, thanks for the response. Where did I claim to be an Atheist? I put "free-thinker" for my little description because I do not want to put myself in the tight box of those other descriptions. Different people have different beliefs about what a "Christian" is for example so I do not want to label myself as that unless I'm being properly understood. I am a theist. I hold all traditional Christian beliefs. I would never deny this. This is for my Apologetics class and it is simply intended to get a general survey of how people of different religious beliefs respond to these questions. I thought I could get some good response from Atheists here.

This is not motivated by anything besides a desire to receive information and thoughts on certain questions, just as it appears. I don't see the harm in discussing these issues. I would be glad to answer a survey of good questions posed by an atheist or any other viewpoint.

Thanks for your response Hitsumei and curiosityandthecat.

Sorry for the miss understanding but free-thinker is a synonym for atheist. I'm pretty sure most people when reading free-thinker assume you're either and Atheist or an Agnostic.

From Dictionary.com
freeâ‹...thinkâ‹...erâ€, â€,/ˈfriˈθɪŋkÉ™r/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [free-thing-ker]

â€"noun a person who forms opinions on the basis of reason, independent of authority or tradition, esp. a person whose religious opinions differ from established belief.


Being a theist, a Christian, and an apologist kind of exclude you from callng yourself a free thinker by it's very deffinition.

Quote1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

1.There are universal truths and constants ie; atomic decay rates but not really any of the arbitrary ones humans put forth.

2.While I can understand the evolutionary imperatives that may be the source of racism, I do not believe that with logic that racism makes any rational sense.

3. Yes I belive it is totaly right to judge other beliefs and actions. While I do not think it's ok to discriminate against others beliefs. I do believe they way we judge the world is to evaluate other beliefs and see how relavent they are to own lives the either accept or disregad those beliefs depending on how they relate to who we want to be and how we think the world should work.

4. Morality is completly subjective to the society at that time. So neither. (ie; slavery is immoral today but maral 200 years ago)

5. There is no actual pupose to life. I can and do freely accept this. (I also accept 42)

6. You rot in the ground. Your constituent molecules are broken down and recycled in several diffirent cycles.

7. There is no god, gods, or deity of any kind.

Quote from: "Tanker"4. Morality is completly subjective to the society at that time.

What does that have to do with anything? Evaluations themselves are subjective. What is and isn't an improvement is based on a value judgment. Surely you wouldn't give such a response if I were to ask you if you think that turning a soup kitchen into a five star restaurant would be an improvement?

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "Tanker"4. Morality is completly subjective to the society at that time.

What does that have to do with anything? Evaluations themselves are subjective. What is and isn't an improvement is based on a value judgment. Surely you wouldn't give such a response if I were to ask you if you think that turning a soup kitchen into a five star restaurant would be an improvement?

I gave an example Slavery is abhorent today, but in America 200 years ago it was considered morally justifiable, by religion for the most part. As our socity moved on our collective morality moved on sometimes kicking and screaming.

I'm unsure of what your example was supposed to represent. A culture could theoreticly move in a way that would make helping the poor was morally wrong say because it gave them a crutch to help prevent them from bringing themselves up out of their situation. But on the flip I personally don't like 5 star establishments I think they are a bit elitist and snobby. A culture like say communism which would believe it was morally supior to remove the elitist establisment and feed everyone equally from bread lines and soup kitchens. It all morraly subjective to that paticular society of people.

I agree with Tanker; Christians are not generally what is meant by the term "freethinker."  At the more religious end of the freethinker spectrum you will find deists (who are not Christian, last I heard, but might pose as Christian in an intolerant atmosphere.) Freethinker is usually understood to mean agnostic or atheist.  You yourself made it quite clear that you are a theist follower of Jesus.  Is that too long for the 'worldview' descriptor?  Maybe "Freethinking Christian." (That sounds contradictory to me, but if it's what you consider yourself to be, cool.) I suppose that in the most liberal interpretation of the word, certain of those who call themselves Christian might qualify, but whether other Christians would recognize them as Christian is a good question.  I think we are all quite well aware that there are many varieties of Christianity.  From what I've seen in my time here at HAF, Christians who choose to become members of this forum are free to describe their particular take on it in their posts here.  I won't dispute your right to call yourself a freethinker, just be aware that people might consider it inaccurate.  That said, I'll participate in your survey.

Quote from: "mbell31"1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

I think that the only universal truths are reasoned directly from empirically proven facts.  An example I used in another thread; "gravity is a property of matter."  All other truths are subjective, in my opinion. Faith is a subjective quality, therefor, truths requiring faith to accept, such as "a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality" are by definition not universal.

Quote2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

Race is an unsound concept, therefor racism is not a reasonable approach.  Hating one particular ethnicity because of their genetic heritage is absurd.  It's counterproductive, and has never had a positive result.  So yes, it's wrong.

Quote3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

I'd be a fool to think it was wrong to judge.  Just because my morality is subjective, that does not mean I don't have the ability to make judgments based on it.  Tolerance is a great virtue, but as far as I'm concerned it becomes ridiculous when obviously harmful beliefs or actions are condoned in the name of tolerance.

Quote4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

I think it's a wash. In some areas of morality America seems to be improving, in some it seems to be declining.

Quote5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

This one is quite clear; the purpose of life is to perpetuate itself.  If you're talking about human life, my particular belief is that our purpose is to try to escape the gravity well of the planet and perpetuate life elsewhere.  Personally: have fun and try to avoid doing harm.  Help others when it seems right to do so.

Quote6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

Like ants and elephants, when a person dies, their elements are dispersed sooner or later back into the environment. Why?  Because once an organism dies it no longer has the capacity to maintain itself as a discrete unit.

Quote7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

God does not exist, except in the minds of some people, in my opinion.

Good luck with your class.

Quote from: "Tanker"I gave an example Slavery is abhorent today, but in America 200 years ago it was considered morally justifiable, by religion for the most part. As our socity moved on our collective morality moved on sometimes kicking and screaming.

I'm unsure of what your example was supposed to represent. A culture could theoreticly move in a way that would make helping the poor was morally wrong say because it gave them a crutch to help prevent them from bringing themselves up out of their situation. But on the flip I personally don't like 5 star establishments I think they are a bit elitist and snobby. A culture like say communism which would believe it was morally supior to remove the elitist establisment and feed everyone equally from bread lines and soup kitchens. It all morraly subjective to that paticular society of people.

I really don't understand why you are saying this given what I said to you. All -- ALL!!! -- evaluations are subjective. What is the point in pointing out that someone may disagree with you? Does that answer the question asked? It was asked what you thought. Not what everyone thought. Not if it was possible that people could hold a different opinion or set of values.

I tried to simply give a mundane example to elucidate my point, but it still managed to escape you it would seem. I'll be unspecific so you don't ignore the point and address the example this time. Is it so that this is what you say at any time that someone asks you for your view on something? Do you just avoid the question and explain how it is possible to hold multiple views on the issue?

If you look up at my post you will see how I was able to answer the question well simultaneously acknowledging that others hold different views. In fact, most of us just know this already, and don't mention it every time our view on a specific issue is sought, while refraining from actually giving a view.

I guess what I am asking is: why does something being subjective mean that you can't offer a view on it? When someone says to you "what do you think of X" are they not asking you precisely for your subjective view?

I don't understand how it being subjective is relevant to the question. Perhaps you could explain.

Quote from: "Recusant"I agree with Tanker; Christians are not generally what is meant by the term "freethinker."  At the more religious end of the freethinker spectrum you will find deists (who are not Christian, last I heard, but might pose as Christian in an intolerant atmosphere.) Freethinker is usually understood to mean agnostic or atheist.  You yourself made it quite clear that you are a theist follower of Jesus.  Is that too long for the 'worldview' descriptor?  Maybe "Freethinking Christian." (That sounds contradictory to me, but if it's what you consider yourself to be, cool.)

As if I'm not picking enough fights already...but I couldn't help myself. Atheists and agnostics are freethinkers because they have defined themselves to be, and have defined "freethinker" to mean agnostic or atheist. It is merely self-proclaimed, and a word that has positive connotations. It is no different than homosexuals calling themselves "gay".

If you want to do that, then knock yourself out, but it isn't as if it means much. I think I'll start using "amazingly attractive woman" to mean "Sort of Christian".

Self-allotted titles somehow don't impress me.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "Tanker"I gave an example Slavery is abhorent today, but in America 200 years ago it was considered morally justifiable, by religion for the most part. As our socity moved on our collective morality moved on sometimes kicking and screaming.

I'm unsure of what your example was supposed to represent. A culture could theoreticly move in a way that would make helping the poor was morally wrong say because it gave them a crutch to help prevent them from bringing themselves up out of their situation. But on the flip I personally don't like 5 star establishments I think they are a bit elitist and snobby. A culture like say communism which would believe it was morally supior to remove the elitist establisment and feed everyone equally from bread lines and soup kitchens. It all morraly subjective to that paticular society of people.

I really don't understand why you are saying this given what I said to you. All -- ALL!!! -- evaluations are subjective. What is the point in pointing out that someone may disagree with you? Does that answer the question asked? It was asked what you thought. Not what everyone thought. Not if it was possible that people could hold a different opinion or set of values.

I tried to simply give a mundane example to elucidate my point, but it still managed to escape you it would seem. I'll be unspecific so you don't ignore the point and address the example this time. Is it so that this is what you say at any time that someone asks you for your view on something? Do you just avoid the question and explain how it is possible to hold multiple views on the issue?

If you look up at my post you will see how I was able to answer the question well simultaneously acknowledging that others hold different views. In fact, most of us just know this already, and don't mention it every time our view on a specific issue is sought, while refraining from actually giving a view.

I guess what I am asking is: why does something being subjective mean that you can't offer a view on it? When someone says to you "what do you think of X" aren't they not asking you precisely for your subjective view?

I don't understand how it being subjective is relevant to the question. Perhaps you could explain.

I'm not sure what you want from me. I guess I genuanly don't understand what your trying to say. I belive that you think I'm being intetnionaly obtuse, I'm not. Some people may believe the U.S. is better, some worse. I don't think it can be answered, or even asked as a simple yes or no. I sorry you don't understand what I'm trying to say I honestly can't think of a way to make myself any more clear. You seem to be a little frustrated me I don't mean to offend.

Quote from: "Tanker"I'm not sure what you want from me.

Well, answering the questions I asked you would have been nice...  :raised:

QuoteYou seem to be a little frustrated me I don't mean to offend.

I'm not offended, though perhaps a little frustrated. I apologize if I came off as crass, or rude to you. It was largely unintentional.  

1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?
Yes. We're here, aren't we? I think no matter someone's opinion, you can't really say that's false.

2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?
Yes. Because we're all the same thing, and you're not perfect either.

3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?
No. Depending upon the person's past actions. And if they believe in a giant sea monster below the Lincoln Memorial that eats Eggo's for breakfast, then I'm going to judge them on damn well being near retarded.

4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?
Worse. Look at how young people are having sex now. What happened to waiting till marriage? (Not like I am)

5. What do you think is the purpose of life?
To live on to allow our species to evolve into the next species.

6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?
We are buried (Depending upon the death), and our body lays there, and decomposes and becomes part of the Earth.

7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?
He/She/It/Whatever is not there.

Hitsumi, I thought mabey I misunderstood the word subjective, so I looked it up.

subâ‹...jecâ‹...tiveâ€, â€,/sÉ™bˈdÊ'É›ktɪv/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-jek-tiv]  Show IPA
â€"adjective 1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.  
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4. Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
6. pertaining to the subject or substance in which attributes inhere; essential.
7. Grammar. a. pertaining to or constituting the subject of a sentence.
b. (in English and certain other languages) noting a case specialized for that use, as He in He hit the ball.
c. similar to such a case in meaning. Compare nominative.  
 
8. Obsolete. characteristic of a political subject; submissive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of those deffinitions are apt to what I was trying to say, I did answer the question. I sorry you don't understand, but weather or not the US is more moral is in fact subjective.

Uh, derail much?

Yeah Tanker, what the hell?  

hey thank you for all your responses. I am sorry for the confusion caused by my putting "free-thinker". If I had known the common interpretation of this title was agnostic/atheist I wouldn't have used it. I thought free-thinker simply meant thinking freely and openly using my own reason and understanding. My free-thinking led me to share the traditional beliefs of Christianity.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Yeah Tanker, what the hell?  

That was directed at you, too, Hitsumei.

Quote from: "mbell31"hey thank you for all your responses. I am sorry for the confusion caused by my putting "free-thinker". If I had known the common interpretation of this title was agnostic/atheist I wouldn't have used it. I thought free-thinker simply meant thinking freely and openly using my own reason and understanding. My free-thinking led me to share the traditional beliefs of Christianity.

Good for you. Please try to refrain from "sharing" them here. We don't respond well to that. And, when I say "we" I mean "I".

Quote from: "mbell31"1. Do you think there is any universal truth, things that are true regardless of a person's opinion? Why or why not?

I think this question depends on what kind of "truths." In terms of religious truth, I think it's all up to the person. They are allowed to believe in whatever they want to believe but I do think some people are just insane. A man walking on water. A man living in a whale for 3 days. A man split a massive sea with a wooden stick. I mean I could go on but that's just a bunch of ficticious tales to me. As for other truths, science and research is increasing each year and although we may never had the answers to all the things on Earch that are "unexplainable," humans are working on it and always will.

Quote from: "mbell31"2. Do you think that racism is wrong, in other words, hating people simply based on their ethnicity? Why or why not?

Yes, I do think racism is wrong. It promotes violence and prejudice. It takes away human moral values of treating everyone with respect regardless of color and race. It's a shame that many people like these exist today.

Quote from: "mbell31"3. Do you think it is wrong to judge another person's beliefs or actions? Why or why not?

Yes. People are allowed to believe in anything they want with reason and under their own circumstances.

Quote from: "mbell31"4. Do you think morality in America is getting better or getting worse? Why?

This is an odd question. I don't know the answer to this one and I would like to think it's always getting better.

Quote from: "mbell31"5. What do you think is the purpose of life?

To reproduce. It always has and always will be. While you're at it, I think it's best to live your life to the fullest, doing everything you like by trying everything once. It would be a terrible waste in my opinon, to have to live in vein, and repent their sins after everything they've done wrong. It's better to live your life using your brain, not following rules from a book.

Quote from: "mbell31"6. What do you think happens when a person dies? Why?

I think nothing happens, just as it did before I even existed. I wouldn't know I wasn't alive because, simply I wasn't born yet. When I'm dead, I wouldn't know it because my ability to care and think would be gone. And so, the universe just spins on.

Quote from: "mbell31"7. What is your view of God? What is He like (if you think he exists)?

I don't believe in any gods. If he did exist, I'd probably ask him for 2 cokes and a bag of chips right now. I'm hungry! =)

No, I don't want to take another survey.  Every time someone posts a survey I ask that they promise to post the results.  Every time they promise yet never post the results.  I don't like providing information if I don't know how it is going to be used nor how much of it will be 'summarized' by the surveyor.  

Quote from: "Hitsumei"As if I'm not picking enough fights already...but I couldn't help myself. Atheists and agnostics are freethinkers because they have defined themselves to be, and have defined "freethinker" to mean agnostic or atheist. It is merely self-proclaimed, and a word that has positive connotations. It is no different than homosexuals calling themselves "gay".

I think the term free thinker can include some theists (like JoeActor).  However, since freethinker is meant to refer to someone who basically evaluates truth based solely on reason and evidence; I don't see how many people with a religious faith could classify as freely thinking.  There might be some religious people who are a bit further outside of the dogma box than others, but you obviously have to value faith as a truth seeking tool if you believe something supernatural is real.  Of course, there are agnostic theists who still align themselves with a religion...they maybe could classify as a freethinker, but it would depend on why they consider themselves an agnostic (insert religious belief here).  Many, let's say, agnostic christians (in my experience) aren't thinking broadly enough to consider the possible correctness of other religions, deism, pantheism.

Quote from: "Hitusmei"...Atheists and agnostics are freethinkers because they have defined themselves to be, and have defined "freethinker" to mean agnostic or atheist. It is merely self-proclaimed, and a word that has positive connotations. It is no different than homosexuals calling themselves "gay".

If you want to do that, then knock yourself out, but it isn't as if it means much. I think I'll start using "amazingly attractive woman" to mean "Sort of Christian".

Self-allotted titles somehow don't impress me.

Hello, Hitsumei.  Welcome to HAF.  :raised:  
Once again, welcome, and I hope you enjoy your time perusing and posting here.

Quote from: "Whitney"I think the term free thinker can include some theists (like JoeActor).  

Not how it has been defined earlier in the thread. That seemed like a circle of self-gratification to this bunny!

QuoteHowever, since freethinker is meant to refer to someone who basically evaluates truth based solely on reason and evidence; I don't see how many people with a religious faith could classify as freely thinking.

No one evaluates the truth solely on reason and evidence, it isn't possible. Much is assumption. It is an assumption that reason is accurate -- a system cannot demonstrate the accuracy of itself without being circular. You cannot demonstrate the accuracy of reason with reason. Self-professed "rationalists" seem to also just be reliabilists to justify it -- because it worked in the past, it is inferred that it is reliable, and will continue to work in the future, which is an inductive assumption, and induction cannot be rationally justified, and the only evidence available to justify induction is inductive, so that would be circular. It is then an assumption without rational, or evidential basis.

Some have argued that induction is like a properly basic belief, and doesn't require justification because inductive reasoning is required to operate within the world. I agree with this. Some have also argued that a belief in a god, or an afterlife is also properly basic, because it is required to function in the world. Both cases have exceptions. Some deny induction, and some deny god or an after life -- but most people don't. People seem to argue far more furiously for the necessity of their religious belief, than people argued for the necessity of a belief in induction, or an external world however. Some claim that without the belief, they would not be able to function -- would be depressed, afraid, and no longer be able to hold the same value they gave to life and people before.

I can't say whether this is true or false, but if it is true, then whether right or wrong, it is just as justified as any other belief that we hold by pure assumption for pragmatic purposes.

Take the example of the black swan. Everyone agrees that all swans are white. All we have ever seen are white swans. It is assumed that all swans are white -- we go to Australia and find some black swans. This is an example of induction letting us down. Was it justified to originally assumed that all swans were white? Absolutely. If 100% of our experience suggests a conclusion, then accepting that conclusion is justified. If you disagree, then this would be problematic -- as it implies a rejection of induction. As long as you appreciate that you assumption could be false, it is justified to hold.  

For this reason, saying that something is "justified" and saying that it is "true" are not the same thing. A position can be justified by all of the available evidence, and by proper logical inferences, and still be false.

This I think is a sufficient defense for the general religious person.    

QuoteThere might be some religious people who are a bit further outside of the dogma box than others, but you obviously have to value faith as a truth seeking tool if you believe something supernatural is real.  

Some would say you would have to value faith as a truth seeking tool if you believe anything at all (beyond yourself) to be real.

QuoteOf course, there are agnostic theists who still align themselves with a religion...they maybe could classify as a freethinker, but it would depend on why they consider themselves an agnostic (insert religious belief here).  Many, let's say, agnostic christians (in my experience) aren't thinking broadly enough to consider the possible correctness of other religions, deism, pantheism.

I'm a Christian in a cultural sense. Bore and raised Christian. I don't attend churches, nor do I agree with many of its dogmas or tenets. I think that it is clear that all religions are made by people, but to what ends? It seems that when you ask a devoutly religious person what their religion is for, they tend to give quite similar answers regardless of their religion. This makes me raise an eyebrow, at the very least.

Quote from: "Recusant"As far as I am able to find, you are correct that it was freethinkers themselves who coined the term.  I think the idea is to label ways of thought which are discrete from religion in a way other than negatively.

Calling yourself a "freethinker" and saying that only people that hold a certain metaphysical position with you are allowed to do so, I think is quite negative. Someone could be an atheist because their dog told them that there are no gods -- and this person would be a freethinker, while Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Descartes, Paley, Newton, or Epicurus would not qualify.

I -- at least -- find that strange.  :D

QuoteSo it seems we agree on that point, and since I care very little whether you are impressed or not, we don't have any fight.   ;)

QuoteOnce again, welcome, and I hope you enjoy your time perusing and posting here.

Thanks.  

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"42.

Now, now. I believe that is the answer to not only life, but the universe and everything.

I always wondered if Douglas Adams picked the number "42" at random.  If you write out 42 and turn it upside down, it can look like "2b."  What's the purpose of life, the universe, and everything?  Simply "to be."

So maybe it's a stretch, but I like it.