Title: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: MikeyV on March 09, 2009, 06:30:18 PM
Post by: MikeyV on March 09, 2009, 06:30:18 PM
I stumbled across this disturbing news story on Friday.
Summary: An 8 year old Brazilian girl complains of stomach pain. The girl's mother takes her to urgent care. An ultrasound reveals that she is pregnant, with twins! The mother's and doctor's questioning result in the girl implicating her step father in repeated molestation from the age of 6. She also alleges that her step father has been molesting her 14 year old developmentally handicapped sister. The step father is arrested.
The doctors and the mother conclude (rightly so, in my opinion) that the best course of action would be to terminate the pregnancy. Brazilian law forbids abortion unless the pregnancy is the result of rape or poses significant health risk to the mother. Of course, the 80 pound 8 year old falls into both categories.
The abortion is performed. The Brazilian Arch Bishop says the mother, the nurses, and doctors involved will be excommunicated.
The child will not be excommunicated on the grounds that she was too young to have a say in the matter. Ironically, the step father won't be excommunicated either.
I was lurking a Catholic forum that posted the story. For the most part, the posters agreed that although they don't generally agree with abortion, this was an exceptional case, and the abortion was necessary. However, there were a few that agreed with the Arch Bishop, and one outrageous post by a woman who basically said "Pregnancy is not that hard. I've had 5 kids, and I'm fine." not taking into account that she'd never had a multiple birth, much less started having children when she was 8. There were a few others that discounted the story entirely because "it's impossible for an 8 year old to ovulate, therefore, she wasn't pregnant".
I was also on Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/the_headline_says_it_all.php) (PZ Myers' blog) where I learned of the story. Most memorable quote - "Excommunication is a reward for Doing The Right Thingâ,,¢."
Original BBC story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm)
The whole story made me very sad, but I've come to expect this sort of inhumanity from the Catholic Church. Before someone accuses me of painting all Catholics with a broad brush, remember, the RCC is a monolithic organization. You support your small country parish, which supports the RCC, which supports the Brazilian Arch Bishop. They are one and the same.
Edit: I can't believe I misspelled PZ Myers
Summary: An 8 year old Brazilian girl complains of stomach pain. The girl's mother takes her to urgent care. An ultrasound reveals that she is pregnant, with twins! The mother's and doctor's questioning result in the girl implicating her step father in repeated molestation from the age of 6. She also alleges that her step father has been molesting her 14 year old developmentally handicapped sister. The step father is arrested.
The doctors and the mother conclude (rightly so, in my opinion) that the best course of action would be to terminate the pregnancy. Brazilian law forbids abortion unless the pregnancy is the result of rape or poses significant health risk to the mother. Of course, the 80 pound 8 year old falls into both categories.
The abortion is performed. The Brazilian Arch Bishop says the mother, the nurses, and doctors involved will be excommunicated.
The child will not be excommunicated on the grounds that she was too young to have a say in the matter. Ironically, the step father won't be excommunicated either.
I was lurking a Catholic forum that posted the story. For the most part, the posters agreed that although they don't generally agree with abortion, this was an exceptional case, and the abortion was necessary. However, there were a few that agreed with the Arch Bishop, and one outrageous post by a woman who basically said "Pregnancy is not that hard. I've had 5 kids, and I'm fine." not taking into account that she'd never had a multiple birth, much less started having children when she was 8. There were a few others that discounted the story entirely because "it's impossible for an 8 year old to ovulate, therefore, she wasn't pregnant".
I was also on Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/the_headline_says_it_all.php) (PZ Myers' blog) where I learned of the story. Most memorable quote - "Excommunication is a reward for Doing The Right Thingâ,,¢."
Original BBC story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm)
The whole story made me very sad, but I've come to expect this sort of inhumanity from the Catholic Church. Before someone accuses me of painting all Catholics with a broad brush, remember, the RCC is a monolithic organization. You support your small country parish, which supports the RCC, which supports the Brazilian Arch Bishop. They are one and the same.
Edit: I can't believe I misspelled PZ Myers
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Twiddler on March 09, 2009, 06:43:43 PM
Post by: Twiddler on March 09, 2009, 06:43:43 PM
Wow, I saw that story on their webpage for a few days but never really looked into it. Pretty sad story from many angles.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Squid on March 09, 2009, 06:57:21 PM
Post by: Squid on March 09, 2009, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: "MikeyV"There were a few others that discounted the story entirely because "it's impossible for an 8 year old to ovulate, therefore, she wasn't pregnant"
People are stupid...the youngest pregnancy was a girl that was five...it is possible...very rare but possible.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Kylyssa on March 09, 2009, 08:11:31 PM
Post by: Kylyssa on March 09, 2009, 08:11:31 PM
I saw the story a few days ago and it horrified me. Beyond the fact that the little girl would have been psychologically further victimized by the trauma of carrying a pregnancy and the pain or childbirth (a c-section isn't all puppies and roses, folks) her developing pelvis would probably have been horribly damaged as the fetuses grew inside her. Even a grown woman's pelvis is altered by pregnancy. Scarring caused by c-sections can cause all sorts of problems such as adhesions and also increase the risks associated with future pregnancies - in adult women. In a child, one can only imagine what a pregnancy would do to her tiny body.
This kind of thing makes me furious. How can anyone value an undeveloped embryo over a precious, living, breathing, hurting child?
I had talked about this with my Catholic roommate - she was horrified, too, that anyone had questioned the decision to terminate the pregnancy.
This kind of thing makes me furious. How can anyone value an undeveloped embryo over a precious, living, breathing, hurting child?
I had talked about this with my Catholic roommate - she was horrified, too, that anyone had questioned the decision to terminate the pregnancy.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 09, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 09, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
So wrong.
Wrong on levels.
Wrong on levels.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Ninteen45 on March 10, 2009, 09:46:41 PM
Post by: Ninteen45 on March 10, 2009, 09:46:41 PM
(Edited because I read the story fully, and not the title.)
Ouch, that must be upsetting. That archbishop is an utter imbecile.
Ouch, that must be upsetting. That archbishop is an utter imbecile.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: VanReal on March 11, 2009, 12:29:48 AM
Post by: VanReal on March 11, 2009, 12:29:48 AM
Sadly this does not surprise me in the least. Some members of the catholic church are completely unwilling to bend their beliefs regardless of the pending doom actions in conflict of those beliefs are causing. I mean they seriously operate in Africa in areas ravished by AIDS and tell them not to use condoms, and would have women die before voluntarily having an abortion (or hysterectomy) regardless of the health impact on the mother/woman. I suppose the molesting father can repent/confess and do his penance therefore being absolved for his actions but the persons involved in the abortion can't? Hmmm, typical.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: MariaEvri on March 11, 2009, 11:51:58 AM
Post by: MariaEvri on March 11, 2009, 11:51:58 AM
my friends told me about this story, they saw it on the news. Even though they are both Christians, they agree with the abortion. As for me, I couldn't except anything better from the church 
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: SSY on March 11, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
Post by: SSY on March 11, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
Despicable.
Whoever said "For a good man to do evil things, it takes religion" was bang on
P.S. A cookie for whoever can remind me who said it and the full quote, Danke!
Whoever said "For a good man to do evil things, it takes religion" was bang on
P.S. A cookie for whoever can remind me who said it and the full quote, Danke!
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: MariaEvri on March 11, 2009, 02:07:21 PM
Post by: MariaEvri on March 11, 2009, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: "SSY"Despicable.
Whoever said "For a good man to do evil things, it takes religion" was bang on
P.S. A cookie for whoever can remind me who said it and the full quote, Danke!
With or without religion, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. It takes religion for good people to do evil things â€" Steven Weinberg
Maria wants her cookie now
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: SSY on March 12, 2009, 06:01:23 PM
Post by: SSY on March 12, 2009, 06:01:23 PM
I don't beleive in a god, and hence, dont beleive in an afterlife. So becuase my actions won't be judged, I am perfectly justified in being an asshole to you, and I won't get my punishment, ever.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftechnabob.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F04%2Fsuper_mario_cookie.jpg&hash=9ae220abd69edca947b167ebc0bdf02a797f1c8c)
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Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Sophus on March 18, 2009, 01:57:35 AM
Post by: Sophus on March 18, 2009, 01:57:35 AM
Quote from: "Squid"People are stupid....
Quoted for truth.
QuoteFor the most part, the posters agreed that although they don't generally agree with abortion, this was an exceptional case, and the abortion was necessary.
Nice to see that common sense prevails in the religious sometimes.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Chimera on March 18, 2009, 06:53:25 PM
Post by: Chimera on March 18, 2009, 06:53:25 PM
It's things like this that keep me awake at night, ranting to myself about the stupidity of religion and humankind.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 24, 2009, 03:11:20 PM
Post by: Nulono on March 24, 2009, 03:11:20 PM
Two minds will never ponder
Four hands will never play
Two kids will never smell a rose
Or see the light of day.
Two precious lives were snuffed out short
And I sometimes wonder why
They can hear of such atrocities
And expect us not to cry.
Four hands will never play
Two kids will never smell a rose
Or see the light of day.
Two precious lives were snuffed out short
And I sometimes wonder why
They can hear of such atrocities
And expect us not to cry.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Sophus on March 24, 2009, 09:00:54 PM
Post by: Sophus on March 24, 2009, 09:00:54 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"Two minds will never ponder
Four hands will never play
Two kids will never smell a rose
Or see the light of day.
Two precious lives were snuffed out short
And I sometimes wonder why
They can hear of such atrocities
And expect us not to cry.
It's a fetus for god's sake. It-is-a-fetus.
Tell me, is a miscarriage the death of a child?
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 25, 2009, 10:30:27 PM
Post by: Nulono on March 25, 2009, 10:30:27 PM
Quote from: "Sophus"It's a fetus for god's sake. It-is-a-fetus.Twins. Two fetuses. You fail.
QuoteTell me, is a miscarriage the death of a child?Yes, and women who have miscarriages suffer extreme mental anguish and grief from "losing their babies".
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: LSchune on March 25, 2009, 11:18:18 PM
Post by: LSchune on March 25, 2009, 11:18:18 PM
Humanity fails. Just completely, utterly fails. The fact that anyone could agree with this numbnut's decision... I simply cannot comprehend. Nor do I want to, simply because I want to steer clear of insanity.
MikeyV - could you post a link to the thread in the Catholic forum?
MikeyV - could you post a link to the thread in the Catholic forum?
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Sophus on March 25, 2009, 11:53:54 PM
Post by: Sophus on March 25, 2009, 11:53:54 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"Yes, and women who have miscarriages suffer extreme mental anguish and grief from "losing their babies".New Rule: You can't call something a baby unless it's a baby.
My wife, on our first try, had a miscarriage. She handled it very well. Frankly we both knew it was possible. Is it sad? Sure, we were a little disappointed. But it was because of the death of a hope, not a human being. Obviously feelings don't prove anything in debate but I would be devasted at the thought of losing my six year old son. There's a huge difference.
I admire how you honor life.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 10:56:56 AM
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 10:56:56 AM
"Baby" is a term of endearment, not a medical term. Also notice the quotes. That's what they call it. I've had friends who miscarry. It's not uncommon to see devastation, and a funeral. Funerals are very common. Mere "disappointment" is very rare.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Sorz on March 26, 2009, 11:31:52 AM
Post by: Sorz on March 26, 2009, 11:31:52 AM
I've heard many muslims justify muhameds marriage and consumation of marriage with aysha using this article and many others where 5 and 9 year olds are pregnant ...
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: liveyoungdiefast on March 26, 2009, 02:34:39 PM
Post by: liveyoungdiefast on March 26, 2009, 02:34:39 PM
With all of our understanding now about biology and science, girls that are as young as 8, and I'd go so far to say 13, should never carry pregnancies to term. This is what I don't like about the 'pro-life' crowd always shouting 'murder!', for fuck's sake if you're pregnant that young you have enough problems, a moral debate inside your head is that last thing you would possibly need at that age.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 04:15:24 PM
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 04:15:24 PM
for fuck's sake if you're pregnant that young you have enough problems, a
So, of course, let them do whatever they want. Do not prosecute young murderers and rapists, because "moral debate inside your head is that last thing you would possibly need at that age".
Quote from: "Sorz"I've heard many muslims justify muhameds marriage and consumation of marriage with aysha using this article and many others where 5 and 9 year olds are pregnant ...What does that have to do with anything?
Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"With all of our understanding now about biology and science, girls that are as young as 8, and I'd go so far to say 13, should never carry pregnancies to term.Of course, but doctors should try hard to save both patients.
QuoteThis is what I don't like about the 'pro-life' crowd always shouting 'murder!',This is beside the point. Prenatal personhood is independent of the mother.
Quotemoral debate inside your head is that last thing you would possibly need at that age.
So, of course, let them do whatever they want. Do not prosecute young murderers and rapists, because "moral debate inside your head is that last thing you would possibly need at that age".
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: MikeyV on March 26, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
Post by: MikeyV on March 26, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: "LSchune"MikeyV - could you post a link to the thread in the Catholic forum?
Sorry for the delay...
http://thetheologianscafe.xanga.com/694403556/pregnant-at-nine/
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 05:26:05 PM
Post by: Nulono on March 26, 2009, 05:26:05 PM
[spoiler:7it5z7qn](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohiocitizen.org%2Fcampaigns%2Fdupont_c8%2Ffetus.jpg&hash=e6269d26d20f1aab74d047e151eb52b1f1711418)
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Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: LSchune on March 26, 2009, 06:23:40 PM
Post by: LSchune on March 26, 2009, 06:23:40 PM
Quote from: "MikeyV"Quote from: "LSchune"MikeyV - could you post a link to the thread in the Catholic forum?
Sorry for the delay...
http://thetheologianscafe.xanga.com/694403556/pregnant-at-nine/
Thank you!
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Rev.RonnieReynolds on March 27, 2009, 03:42:14 PM
Post by: Rev.RonnieReynolds on March 27, 2009, 03:42:14 PM
I don't know why we're talking about the "fetus".
The real discussion is why the step-father is still alive.
Not only should he be killed, but he should be castrated before and tortured mercilessly for weeks.
Someone should fuck him up the ass with a splintered broomstick and perforate his colon so he bleeds out internally.
Seriously. If you rape a child, I will fucking kill you. I don't understand why this is even a question.
excommunicated better mean they cut the fuckers vocal cords out, because anything else is a slap on the wrist.
The real discussion is why the step-father is still alive.
Not only should he be killed, but he should be castrated before and tortured mercilessly for weeks.
Someone should fuck him up the ass with a splintered broomstick and perforate his colon so he bleeds out internally.
Seriously. If you rape a child, I will fucking kill you. I don't understand why this is even a question.
excommunicated better mean they cut the fuckers vocal cords out, because anything else is a slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 27, 2009, 05:19:03 PM
Post by: Nulono on March 27, 2009, 05:19:03 PM
I think you're getting a little obsessed with vengeance, no pun intended.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 27, 2009, 05:23:13 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on March 27, 2009, 05:23:13 PM
Quote from: "Rev.RonnieReynolds"I don't know why we're talking about the "fetus".You're being a bit vague. Could you tell me how you really feel?
The real discussion is why the step-father is still alive.
Not only should he be killed, but he should be castrated before and tortured mercilessly for weeks.
Someone should fuck him up the ass with a splintered broomstick and perforate his colon so he bleeds out internally.
Seriously. If you rape a child, I will fucking kill you. I don't understand why this is even a question.
excommunicated better mean they cut the fuckers vocal cords out, because anything else is a slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: quizlixx on March 28, 2009, 02:49:08 AM
Post by: quizlixx on March 28, 2009, 02:49:08 AM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Quote from: "Rev.RonnieReynolds"I don't know why we're talking about the "fetus".You're being a bit vague. Could you tell me how you really feel?
The real discussion is why the step-father is still alive.
Not only should he be killed, but he should be castrated before and tortured mercilessly for weeks.
Someone should fuck him up the ass with a splintered broomstick and perforate his colon so he bleeds out internally.
Seriously. If you rape a child, I will fucking kill you. I don't understand why this is even a question.
excommunicated better mean they cut the fuckers vocal cords out, because anything else is a slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on March 28, 2009, 05:20:53 AM
Post by: Nulono on March 28, 2009, 05:20:53 AM
I say we split the new apples 50-50.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: quizlixx on March 28, 2009, 05:22:57 AM
Post by: quizlixx on March 28, 2009, 05:22:57 AM
ooh, i thought you meant. . . well never mind.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Ninteen45 on March 29, 2009, 12:37:28 AM
Post by: Ninteen45 on March 29, 2009, 12:37:28 AM
[youtube:k4v8i0yf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXE6GZPPCOk[/youtube:k4v8i0yf]
I tought it would highlight the Irony.
I tought it would highlight the Irony.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: brendya on April 29, 2009, 08:07:02 AM
Post by: brendya on April 29, 2009, 08:07:02 AM
How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start? How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start, and what are the symptoms? Do most women experience pregnancy symptoms?
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Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: SSY on April 29, 2009, 02:37:04 PM
Post by: SSY on April 29, 2009, 02:37:04 PM
One of the most common symptons is, you know, having a baby.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: rlrose328 on April 29, 2009, 05:57:04 PM
Post by: rlrose328 on April 29, 2009, 05:57:04 PM
Quote from: "brendya"How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start? How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start, and what are the symptoms? Do most women experience pregnancy symptoms?
Hi Brendya...
My son is now 9 years old. My menstrual history is wildly erratic. That said, I didn't find out I was pregnant until I was 17 weeks, 5 days along. The only "symptoms" I had was a very bad emotional response to hormones when I was 2 months pregnant. I had a little breakdown. The doctors put me on Prozac. Other than that, no other symptoms.
Just wondering why the symptoms might matter? If I didn't have any symptoms until I was 2 months pregnant yet didn't know it, does that mean it would be okay to abort until I have symptoms? That makes little to no sense at all.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: quizlixx on May 06, 2009, 10:54:29 PM
Post by: quizlixx on May 06, 2009, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: "rlrose328"ooh, prozac, fun.Quote from: "brendya"How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start? How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start, and what are the symptoms? Do most women experience pregnancy symptoms?
Hi Brendya...
My son is now 9 years old. My menstrual history is wildly erratic. That said, I didn't find out I was pregnant until I was 17 weeks, 5 days along. The only "symptoms" I had was a very bad emotional response to hormones when I was 2 months pregnant. I had a little breakdown. The doctors put me on Prozac. Other than that, no other symptoms.
Just wondering why the symptoms might matter? If I didn't have any symptoms until I was 2 months pregnant yet didn't know it, does that mean it would be okay to abort until I have symptoms? That makes little to no sense at all.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on May 07, 2009, 12:22:35 PM
Post by: Nulono on May 07, 2009, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: "rlrose328"Um, except you can't really abort a baby you don't know exists.Quote from: "brendya"How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start? How long after inplantation do the pregnancy symptoms start, and what are the symptoms? Do most women experience pregnancy symptoms?
Hi Brendya...
My son is now 9 years old. My menstrual history is wildly erratic. That said, I didn't find out I was pregnant until I was 17 weeks, 5 days along. The only "symptoms" I had was a very bad emotional response to hormones when I was 2 months pregnant. I had a little breakdown. The doctors put me on Prozac. Other than that, no other symptoms.
Just wondering why the symptoms might matter? If I didn't have any symptoms until I was 2 months pregnant yet didn't know it, does that mean it would be okay to abort until I have symptoms? That makes little to no sense at all.
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: rlrose328 on May 07, 2009, 05:30:19 PM
Post by: rlrose328 on May 07, 2009, 05:30:19 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"Quote from: "rlrose328"Just wondering why the symptoms might matter? If I didn't have any symptoms until I was 2 months pregnant yet didn't know it, does that mean it would be okay to abort until I have symptoms? That makes little to no sense at all. :blush: It made sense in my head until you pointed that out.
How about this: If I don't have symptoms until I'm 2 months pregnant, does that mean it would be okay to abort then?
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: Nulono on May 08, 2009, 03:14:38 AM
Post by: Nulono on May 08, 2009, 03:14:38 AM
No, why would it?
[spoiler:vilq058x](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takegreatpictures.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages%2Ftip1_5134.jpg&hash=b8bfd9d6d79d1ccdb97de2b033c85073f26c6cee)[/spoiler:vilq058x]
[spoiler:vilq058x](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takegreatpictures.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages%2Ftip1_5134.jpg&hash=b8bfd9d6d79d1ccdb97de2b033c85073f26c6cee)[/spoiler:vilq058x]
Title: Re: 8 Years Old and Pregnant
Post by: quizlixx on May 08, 2009, 03:37:59 AM
Post by: quizlixx on May 08, 2009, 03:37:59 AM
Quote from: "Nulono"No, why would it?
[spoiler:1y3o05xo](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takegreatpictures.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages%2Ftip1_5134.jpg&hash=b8bfd9d6d79d1ccdb97de2b033c85073f26c6cee)[/spoiler:1y3o05xo]
maybe a spoiler warning, eh?