Happy Atheist Forum

Some of you may remember how some while ago I made that thread about how I still have this feeling about God, and like how it seems like I can't let it go.

I still can't.

I can say to myself I don't believe in God all I want, tell others, etc, but I still just have this feeling sometimes that I can't explain.
I know logically, God can't exist. I have gone through that part, have posted some on here about it, I know that whole thing, and through logic, I don't believe in God. But at the same time, I feel as if I can't let it go. I have no idea what it is, or why.

Anyone else go through this?...

It sounds an awful lot like loneliness or possibly anxiety.

Most people born into the world are told, in no uncertain terms, that we have a hole in our self, in our essence. We're told this by people who stand to gain by filling this hole that they themselves have forced us to dig out of ourselves. Often times we give in, we fill the hole with money, religion, drugs, sex, anything that we think will fit, but nothing ever makes that hole go away.

You've got a hole, Kevin. It's time to admit that hole only exists because you think it exists. Will it away. You can do it.

Quote from: "Kevin"Some of you may remember how some while ago I made that thread about how I still have this feeling about God, and like how it seems like I can't let it go.

I still can't.

I can say to myself I don't believe in God all I want, tell others, etc, but I still just have this feeling sometimes that I can't explain.
I know logically, God can't exist. I have gone through that part, have posted some on here about it, I know that whole thing, and through logic, I don't believe in God. But at the same time, I feel as if I can't let it go. I have no idea what it is, or why.

Anyone else go through this?...

I'm not going thru it now but I did at one time. Maybe God doesn't want to let go of you.

Quote from: "reynolds"I'm not going thru it now but I did at one time. Maybe God doesn't want to let go of you.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but I must disagree with your conclusion even based on what I would guess are your own standards. The Judeo-Christian god not allowing someone to follow their own nature would be direct intervention in free will. According to the Bible, we've already had a bite of the fruit, we already understand good and evil, and we have free will. We have to have free will or the choice to believe in god is meaningless, right? So Kevin, even by the standards of Christianity, is free to make his own decisions. I know it sounds like the Christian thing to say "god doesn't want to let you go", but from my perspective, it's just cruel to Kevin and it's not even in line with what most Christians believe.

Sorry to be so rough on you right after joining.

Kev, I'd say it's probably the same sort of feeling Carl Sagan got when stared up at that oak tree he so easily compares us to: wonder at the beauty, complexity and ironic simplicity of life. It ain't God, man... s'just life.

It's old, but Socrates felt this way.

Quote from: "Will"Most people born into the world are told, in no uncertain terms, that we have a hole in our self, in our essence. We're told this by people who stand to gain by filling this hole that they themselves have forced us to dig out of ourselves. Often times we give in, we fill the hole with money, religion, drugs, sex, anything that we think will fit, but nothing ever makes that hole go away.

You've got a hole, Kevin. It's time to admit that hole only exists because you think it exists. Will it away. You can do it.

It took me like 3 times reading that, but I get what your saying. Me being 16 though, none of that stuff I've ever had to fill the whole with, especially religion. My dad and I have talked about it, he decided not to shove religion down my throat since it was shoved down his and he didn't like it, so I've never had that fill up the whole. Closest thing would be when I was baptized, but look how well that worked out.
But I get what you're saying about me willing it away. I guess it's just hard to accept it sometimes, especially when you see stuff on TV about ghosts, for example, and think about how much there seems to be for ghosts to exists, but I don't believe in even a spirit, so I'm thinking maybe I'm thinking wrong, and that's what probably gets to me.
Though us just finishing evolution in biology helped me out some... Too bad we really just focused on Charles Darwin and the Galapagos...

Kevin, if you knew exactly how you felt and who you were at 16 you would be a literal freak of nature.  The fact that you take the time to think about things so important and reflect on your feelings is impressive and rare.  Questions at your age are normal and I wouldn't worry too much about the conflict between your emotional feelings and your logical thinking, truly it happens within us all about one thing or another.  Mine is my career at this point, my friend's is how he is raising his children, and my son's is what he wants to do after his senior year next year.  Yours is a tough one because it is very personal and not something someone can easily tell you how to handle.  I think by your continued questioning of that feeling that just "won't let go" you know really that you don't believe but worry about what to do without that comforting belief.  Hang in there, keep contemplating and thinking and before long you'll have a conflict that's entirely new to work through.

Quote from: "VanReal"Kevin, if you knew exactly how you felt and who you were at 16 you would be a literal freak of nature.  The fact that you take the time to think about things so important and reflect on your feelings is impressive and rare.  Questions at your age are normal and I wouldn't worry too much about the conflict between your emotional feelings and your logical thinking, truly it happens within us all about one thing or another.  Mine is my career at this point, my friend's is how he is raising his children, and my son's is what he wants to do after his senior year next year.  Yours is a tough one because it is very personal and not something someone can easily tell you how to handle.  I think by your continued questioning of that feeling that just "won't let go" you know really that you don't believe but worry about what to do without that comforting belief.  Hang in there, keep contemplating and thinking and before long you'll have a conflict that's entirely new to work through.

This is really on target and great advice.

Quote from: "VanReal"Kevin, if you knew exactly how you felt and who you were at 16 you would be a literal freak of nature.  The fact that you take the time to think about things so important and reflect on your feelings is impressive and rare.  Questions at your age are normal and I wouldn't worry too much about the conflict between your emotional feelings and your logical thinking, truly it happens within us all about one thing or another.  Mine is my career at this point, my friend's is how he is raising his children, and my son's is what he wants to do after his senior year next year.  Yours is a tough one because it is very personal and not something someone can easily tell you how to handle.  I think by your continued questioning of that feeling that just "won't let go" you know really that you don't believe but worry about what to do without that comforting belief.  Hang in there, keep contemplating and thinking and before long you'll have a conflict that's entirely new to work through.

What do you mean if I knew how I felt and who I was at 16? I AM 16, so I know pretty well who I am and how I feel at 16.

And I REALLY like how you put that, thank you for that. I guess you're probably right with that I don't know how to comfort it. I can't really comfort it with there being no one to talk to it about that I know in real life really, besides my dad (who we share a lot of the same beliefs), and he is the only one I would seriously talk to it about... Well, besides my older brother.
And also, me living in the "Bible Belt" of the U.S. doesn't help that either.

But thanks.

Quote from: "Kevin"What do you mean if I knew how I felt and who I was at 16? I AM 16, so I know pretty well who I am and how I feel at 16.

I know you are 16, which is why I started with that.  My point is that at 16 you are still growing, learning, exploring, and developing who you are.  I also know it doesn't feel like that because I remember being 16 myself.  Although it may not mean anything to you know I'm trying to say that what worries you have now are not the same you will have a year from now.  And, I was commending you for being unconventional in actually thinking about things instead of just acting (like most teenagers me included).

Quote from: "VanReal"

Quote from: "Kevin"What do you mean if I knew how I felt and who I was at 16? I AM 16, so I know pretty well who I am and how I feel at 16.

I know you are 16, which is why I started with that.  My point is that at 16 you are still growing, learning, exploring, and developing who you are.  I also know it doesn't feel like that because I remember being 16 myself.  Although it may not mean anything to you know I'm trying to say that what worries you have now are not the same you will have a year from now.  And, I was commending you for being unconventional in actually thinking about things instead of just acting (like most teenagers me included).

Oh! OK, I understand now. And yes, for sure I will. With college coming up in less than 2 years, if I go that soon. I still don't know what I want to be for sure, where I want to go, etc. I have ideas (i.e. choral director), but I'm not sure, so that will definitely be a worry. But I think about this stuff a lot, especially when I hear even the word 'God' or something else, this stuff immediately enters my mind.

And thanks about me being unconventional in my thinking. I honestly got started on thinking about this when in Spanish we went over Day of the Dead, and learned how most Mexicans view death as just the next stage of our existence, so that got me thinking on afterlife, then George Carlin's thing on "Religion is bullshit" got me really thinking about religion. I know it's weird, but it worked. Then logic and being home on the internet a lot really set that stuff off. (Rofl I'm not fat though, even if I am home a lot. Idk why I added this in :p)

I'm 25 and I'm still learning who I am. It's a picture that comes into clearer and clearer view as you live your life. By the time I'm 80, I'll finally know what the puzzle picture on the box is supposed to look like!

Heck, it took me until my mid-thirties to figure out what I want to do when I grow up!

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Heck, it took me until my mid-thirties to figure out what I want to do when I grow up!

Ha well I know what I want to be, but it most likely won't happen.

I knew what I wanted to do from a pretty young age - then my parents ran away from home and such plans went into the crapper.  Plans seldom survive contact with reality.

You just need to roll with the punches land on your feet eventually then come up with a new plan.

Quote from: "Kevin"Some of you may remember how some while ago I made that thread about how I still have this feeling about God, and like how it seems like I can't let it go.

I still can't.

I can say to myself I don't believe in God all I want, tell others, etc, but I still just have this feeling sometimes that I can't explain.
I know logically, God can't exist. I have gone through that part, have posted some on here about it, I know that whole thing, and through logic, I don't believe in God. But at the same time, I feel as if I can't let it go. I have no idea what it is, or why.

Anyone else go through this?...

Saying that it is logically impossible that a god exist is simply false, but that isn't directly relevant to the point of the thread, so I will just note my contention, and move on.

My suggestion would be to think about the specific god concept that you have, and attempt to analyze what it is about it that gives you these feelings. If there is some aspect of the concept that you find desirable, or would like to be true, then it is only natural to feel a kind of longing, or something about the rejection of it that carries implications that you do not favor.

Bertrand Russel once said that despite the evidence, and the reasoning supporting it, he found it impossible to believe that what was and wasn't good was a matter of opinion.

I think that we all have things that we deeply care about, and the idea of their falsity is extremely hard to accept, on a visceral level. I doubt that it is god specifically that this is for you, but it very well could be something that you see as intrinsic to a god concept. This is what I would look for, if I were you. If you manage to find it, you can either attempt to find a way to separate it from the god concept (whatever it is there are probably already good arguments for it that stand by themselves), or learn to let it go, no matter what kind of grief it causes you. That is, if you are committed to your atheism to the extent that you are willing to suffer the grief.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"That is, if you are committed to you atheism to the extent that you are willing to suffer the grief.

People aren't committed to atheism, we don't think god is real and don't believe that god is likely to be real.  Belief represents commitment - to insist upon the reality of things for which there is no empirical evidence.  Feelings aren't evidence.  Wishful thinking isn't evidence.

Wishing for something to be real doesn't make it so.  Do you think that atheists don't wish for their loved ones to still somehow be alive after they are dead?  We want it just as badly as you do.  Don't you think that atheists desire some perfect justice - punishment for wrongdoers and reward for those who harm none and are loving and helpful?  Both concepts are incredibly desirable.  However, desirability has little to do with whether or not something exists.

Feelings are valid but they don't represent reality.  Feelings can, and often do, conflict with reality.  For instance, a young girl feels that she is fat.  Her weight is less than what is healthy, yet she insists that she is obese despite evidence to the contrary.  Her feeling does not represent reality.

If atheism is any kind of commitment, it is a commitment to try to look at empirical evidence as opposed to following feelings blindly.  If reality causes too much grief for one to bear, then perhaps it is better for him to return to fantasy.

To be honest, I don't equate the presence of feelings of emptiness and unfulfillable desire with the existence of god.  We think, we feel, we imagine.  As long as those three things are true we will imagine things we desire and desire things that don't exist.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"That is, if you are committed to you atheism to the extent that you are willing to suffer the grief.

People aren't committed to atheism, we don't think god is real and don't believe that god is likely to be real.  Belief represents commitment - to insist upon the reality of things for which there is no empirical evidence.  Feelings aren't evidence.  Wishful thinking isn't evidence.

Wishing for something to be real doesn't make it so.  Do you think that atheists don't wish for their loved ones to still somehow be alive after they are dead?  We want it just as badly as you do.  Don't you think that atheists desire some perfect justice - punishment for wrongdoers and reward for those who harm none and are loving and helpful?  Both concepts are incredibly desirable.  However, desirability has little to do with whether or not something exists.

Feelings are valid but they don't represent reality.  Feelings can, and often do, conflict with reality.  For instance, a young girl feels that she is fat.  Her weight is less than what is healthy, yet she insists that she is obese despite evidence to the contrary.  Her feeling does not represent reality.

If atheism is any kind of commitment, it is a commitment to try to look at empirical evidence as opposed to following feelings blindly.  If reality causes too much grief for one to bear, then perhaps it is better for him to return to fantasy.

The above rant seems kind of pointless given how you ended it. If one has no commitment to atheism, and wants to believe in god, then why shouldn't they? You of course answer this, because they are committed to an epistemology, and methodology that they feel that they cannot properly justify the belief under, this obligates them to atheism, and commitment is a form of obligation. Thus what I said holds.

I don't know why you find the idea so objectionable. Clearly one wouldn't be committed to anything for absolutely no reason -- they must feel that something obligates them.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"The above rant seems kind of pointless given how you ended it. If one has no commitment to atheism, and wants to believe in god, then why shouldn't they?

Because they don't think it is real.  This shows the basic difference between atheists and theists.  You seem to be saying a theist can believe in any desirable thing that they want to, that desire equals reality.

The reason I am an atheist is because I am unable to believe in things that I don't think are real.  Like, no matter how desirable it is for a fairy godmother to exist who cures all disease with a wave of her wand, I don't believe in her because I don't think she is real.

Are you saying that theism is the ability to believe in things one desires regardless of their reality?

My worldview holds that reality is what it is, that people may believe different things about it and people may not have a clear view of it but that their beliefs and desires do not affect its nature.  I don't believe I know or understand everything about reality but I don't believe I can alter what is real by believing something counter to reality.

For instance - gods.  There either are or are not gods.  What people believe, one way or the other does not affect whether there are or are not gods.  

I was not aware that this was such an unusual worldview.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Because they don't think it is real.  This shows the basic difference between atheists and theists.  You seem to be saying a theist can believe in any desirable thing that they want to, that desire equals reality.

No, I'm not saying that. I never commented on the possible truth or falsity of the belief.

QuoteThe reason I am an atheist is because I am unable to believe in things that I don't think are real.  Like, no matter how desirable it is for a fairy godmother to exist who cures all disease with a wave of her wand, I don't believe in her because I don't think she is real.

Well obviously, if you thought she was real, then you would believe in her by definition. It is logically impossible to believe something exists, that you don't think exists.

QuoteAre you saying that theism is the ability to believe in things one desires regardless of their reality?

Of course not. Belief in a god is not the only belief there is, and if it happens to be false, then it isn't the only false belief there is either. Are you implying that atheists are incapable of holding false beliefs? Or that theists are some how able to believe that something exists, yet doesn't exist simultaneously?

On a side note, I do find it rather strange that you would interject, and be ready to expatiate the "atheistic justifications" as if there is a uniformity of beliefs, and positions that atheists must share. I am always being told that this isn't the case. There is in fact a thread by the site administration on this very forum saying that this isn't so, if I am not mistaken.

It would seem that perhaps the belief that there is no uniformity of beliefs and positions among atheists is also not uniformly believed by all atheists.  

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I don't know why you find the idea so objectionable. Clearly one wouldn't be committed to anything for absolutely no reason -- they must feel that something obligates them.

It is objectionable because it is the seed behind the general Christian idea that atheists are all grief-stricken sad sacks with a giant hole in their hearts.  

It also implies that not believing in something made up requires some kind of commitment.  Thinking unicorns are not real requires no commitment.  It requires no commitment to think that things that aren't real are not real.

I just can't fathom how not believing in fake things or fantasies equates to an obligation - it seems like the default state.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Well obviously, if you thought she was real, then you would believe in her by definition. It is logically impossible to believe something exists, that you don't think exists.

But then why are you suggesting that believing in god is a choice for someone who doesn't think god is real?

Quote from: "Kylyssa"My worldview holds that reality is what it is...

A tautology.

Quote...that people may believe different things about it and people may not have a clear view of it but that their beliefs and desires do not affect its nature.  

And I hold that people's beliefs certainly are affected by their desires.

QuoteI don't believe I know or understand everything about reality but I don't believe I can alter what is real by believing something counter to reality.

Another tautology.

QuoteFor instance - gods.  There either are or are not gods.  

You're just full of them, I guess.

QuoteWhat people believe, one way or the other does not affect whether there are or are not gods.

Undisputed.

QuoteI was not aware that this was such an unusual worldview.

What? That things that exist exist, and that things that don't exist, don't exist? That isn't often disputed -- though what fits into either category is a whole other story.  

Quote from: "Kylyssa"But then why are you suggesting that believing in god is a choice for someone who doesn't think god is real?

I never suggested that.

Perhaps you should read the OP again. S/he states that on some level, they are not completely convinced. They cannot completely let the belief go, they are at least somewhat undecided on some level.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't know why you find the idea so objectionable. Clearly one wouldn't be committed to anything for absolutely no reason -- they must feel that something obligates them.

It is objectionable because it is the seed behind the general Christian idea that atheists are all grief-stricken sad sacks with a giant hole in their hearts.

Well, I didn't say, nor imply that, so perhaps you could aim your ire towards them.

QuoteIt also implies that not believing in something made up requires some kind of commitment.  Thinking unicorns are not real requires no commitment.  It requires no commitment to think that things that aren't real are not real.

I just can't fathom how not believing in fake things or fantasies equates to an obligation - it seems like the default state.

I am a bit baffled by this... clearly theists don't agree that this is true of what they believe. You can't possibly think that theists simultaneously believe theism is both true and false?

I should also mention that saying "I don't believe X to be true" is properly justified by saying "because there is insufficient evidential, or rational basis to warrant my credulity", while saying "X is false" is not. Insufficient rational, or evidential basis to prove X, does not prove ~X, that commits the negative proof fallacy. To quote Carl Sagan: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

"X is false" is a positive assertion, which requires positive evidence, and arguments.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Saying that it is logically impossible that a god exist is simply false, but that isn't directly relevant the point of the thread, so I will just note my contention, and move on.

Saying that it is logically so improbable as to completely discard the notion that a god exists is simply true. But that isn't directly relevant to the point of the thread, so I will just note my contention, and move on.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"My suggestion would be to think about the specific god concept that you have, and attempt to analyze what it is about it that gives you this feelings. If there is some aspect of the concept that you find desirable, or would like to be true, then it is only natural to feel a kind of longing, or something about the rejection of it that carries implications that you do not favor.

Bertrand Russel once said that despite the evidence, and the reasoning supporting it, he found it impossible to believe that what was and wasn't good was a matter of opinion.

"The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." - Carl Sagan "Wonder and Skepticism", Skeptical Enquirer Volume 19, Issue 1, (January-February 1995)

The more I think about it, the more I think that Carl Sagan sure was a smart guy.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I think that we all have things that we deeply care about, and the idea of their falsity is extremely hard to except, on a visceral level. I doubt that it is god specifically that this is for you, but it very well could be something that you see as intrinsic to a god concept.

You are saying that we all have false things which we deeply care about? If it's not a god or god-concept, then what? The only things in my life which I deeply care about actually exist, there is no falsity to accept.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"This is what I would look for, if I were you. If you manage to find it, you can either attempt to find a way to remove to from the god concept (whatever it is there are probably already good arguments for it that stand by themselves), or learn to let it go, no matter what kind of grief it causes you.

I'm not sure how rationally coming to the conclusion that there is no god will cause grief, it sure didn't for me. But hey, I'm just one guy.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"That is, if you are committed to you atheism to the extent that you are willing to suffer the grief.

Nice little passive-aggressive statement here. Keep coming with jabs like this and you might need to change your worldview to "full blown christian fundie."  

What grief do you attribute to being an atheist? Because the only grief I can think of is the grief that comes from putting up with religious people telling me everything from "you're going to suffer for eternity" to "you're only an atheist because you've chosen a life of sin."

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Saying that it is logically so improbable as to completely discard the notion that a god exists is simply true. But that isn't directly relevant to the point of the thread, so I will just note my contention, and move on.

Please outline how you have accomplished this probability assessment. If you don't mind. A mathematical formula would be excellent.

QuoteYou are saying that we all have false things which we deeply care about?

Yeah, basically, only without the "false" part, that you slipped in there.

QuoteIf it's not a god or god-concept, then what? The only things in my life which I deeply care about actually exist, there is no falsity to accept.

Well, I don't know all of your beliefs or positions, though I am more than confident that you hold at least a couple false ones. No one is perfect. Damn, if everything you think is true, is true, then you should write a few books, and teach us mere mortals how to make it so we also are incapable of holding false beliefs.

QuoteI'm not sure how rationally coming to the conclusion that there is no god will cause grief, it sure didn't for me. But hey, I'm just one guy.

The OP suggested that there was something about the belief in god that they found hard to let go. If, in fact there is something about it that they want to be true, and would be unpleased if it turned out to be false, then I think that it is reasonable to assume that this would cause them some amount of grief. If it isn't true of you, then I'm happy for you, but my post was not addressed to you, so you should not expect my comments on someone else's state of mind to necessarily translate to yours.

QuoteNice little passive-aggressive statement here. Keep coming with jabs like this and you might need to change your worldview to "full blown christian fundie."  

You're so good at reading between the lines that you can see what isn't there.

QuoteWhat grief do you attribute to being an atheist? Because the only grief I can think of is the grief that comes from putting up with religious people telling me everything from "you're going to suffer for eternity" to "you're only an atheist because you've chosen a life of sin."

In the context I was talking in, I was referring to the grief that would be caused by having to let go of a belief, that one wanted some aspect of it to be true. It is simply a neurological fact that concluding that something we want to be true is false causes a certain amount of grief, while rationalization holes in our reasoning triggers the reward centers of our brain and causes a certain amount of pleasure.

What I said no more implies that concluding that something one wants to be true is in fact false is bad, then that implies that rationalizing holes in one's reasoning is good.

I really think that this defensiveness is unwarranted.

Hi, Kevin....You seem quite mature for your age......It is very impressive how you are able to verbalize your feelings.
I am a bit of a romanticist myself, and would LOVE to think ghosts exist, too.....as that way...the ones that died are still around.....great thought.......immortality is such wishful thinking.
I was in the sleep/awake state once and was paralyzed, but I saw a thin woman approaching my feet , and I was too paralyzed to move, but finally did...sat up quickly, terrorized....and screamed..."What the hell do you want?" She disappeared, immediately then.....I have also thought ....and think it was some chemical trick my brain may have been playing with me or something......but then......we really don't know ALL of the answers, do we.....? I have also pondered that sitings of ghosts could be the result of parallel universes....or something other than what we have considered.......other than spirits walking around who are dead......Funny thing is....the apparition I saw was of a female I knew, who was still very much alive....Anyway....there is your logical self and feeling self....Feelings are very real to those feeling them.......Are you lonely? Frightened about something?....
We aetheists would LOVE to believe in the things Christians do, as someone said earlier in this thread......too....There would be a comfort in thinking you would see someone again you loved  after they died......but it just doesn't make sense to many of us.......I love a good fairy tale, too, but just don't believe in them......It is lonely not to, sometimes, too.

Quote from: "Lilbeth"I was in the sleep/awake state once and was paralyzed, but I saw a thin woman approaching my feet , and I was too paralyzed to move, but finally did...sat up quickly, terrorized....and screamed..."What the hell do you want?" She disappeared, immediately then.....I have also thought ....and think it was some chemical trick my brain may have been playing with me or something......but then......we really don't know ALL of the answers, do we.....? I have also pondered that sitings of ghosts could be the result of parallel universes....or something other than what we have considered.......other than spirits walking around who are dead....

I thought maybe this would be interesting to you

Quote from: "John Copeland
Central Oklahoma Paranormal Studies "Some day there will be a scientific explanation for why we see ghosts and maybe then we will all find the event as breathtaking as a lightning storm or a sun rise..