Happy Atheist Forum

Hello Happy Atheists Forum,

I have something on my mind, and I want to share it with you.

I have run across thousands of skeptics and atheists on the internet that like to claim,
"God cannot be proven due to lack of evidence."

Ok, let's take that argument in the other direction, shall we?

The entire Universe cannot be explored by any mortal man. That is a guaranteed fact of life. Even the greatest minds throughout history; such as Albert Einstein, Lord Kelvin William Thompson and Isaac Newton could not figure out what "Mysterious Force" moves our Constellation. So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

Keep in mind while you think about this, folks.

The entire universe cannot be explored. As a matter of fact.. mankind has not even scratched the surface of the Universe, so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

That is by far the most absurd argument ever displayed.

Atheism is nothing more than a guess, at best.

Thanks for your time,
Psalm 23.

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Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"picture of zoidberg

lol curio.

Welcome to the forum, Psalm23. Good luck converting us.  

Quote from: "Psalm23"stop and think for a minute...

we have
that's why we are atheists

yeah that makes perfect sense. Just because there are things that I don't know I'd be better off if i just made up some supernatural tales that contradict among others the principles of thermodynamics and all kind of non-determinism (well that's a good side of it cos i always felt that quantum mechanics was too weird for me).

Quote from: "Psalm23"so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

Because is the most reasonable proposal. I'd rather sitck to the facts than "believe" in something i cannot measure or demonstrate.
Also one could invert the question, how can anyone say with sheer confidence that god exists....

Why believe in something that is not constricted to our physical universe and define it with "manly" parameters (such as benevolence, judgement, wrath, etc) if that thing is supposedly "outside" spacetime and therefore cannot be related to anything that applies in our universe?
(bah I screwed it up again with my English, sorry about that)

Sounds like that guy Occam with the razor would have something to say about this.

But hey I understand believing in a god could be useful for some kind of people. As Karl Marx said, religion is the heart of a heartless world...

Quote from: "Psalm23"I have run across thousands of skeptics and atheists on the internet that like to claim,
"God cannot be proven due to lack of evidence."

This is an agnostic statement intended to demonstrate that anyone that states conclusively that god does exist is wrong. It's not a statement of pure atheism, but agnosticism. Of course, the vast majority of self-proclaimed atheists are in fact agnostic atheists like myself. We believe that because there is no evidence for god, there's no reason to believe in god. Atheism is not "god does not exist", it's "you're wrong to say that god does exist." As that's the case, it is in fact people who are certain, mostly theists, that you should be questioning about their certainty. How can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does exist?

psalm23

QuoteThe entire universe cannot be explored. As a matter of fact.. mankind has not even scratched the surface of the Universe, so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

Have you actually sat down and considered the implications of your argument?
-That god is out there somewhere...

hiding?!?!

Quote from: "pedricero matao"As Karl Marx said, religion is the heart of a heartless world...

Karl Marx also said that religion is the opium of the masses.

To get back to the thread, I find it very hard to believe in things for which there isn't ever a slightest thread of evidence. Even if there would be a creator somewhere out there in the universe (which I doubt) then the likelihood that this creator would resemble any of one of our imaginary human gods (whether it is God, Allah, Shiva, Apollo or whatever) is practically 0%. The universe however seems to be running quite well without gods in the "control room".

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Psalm23, are you suggesting space aliens here?  Now that would be fascinating.  I'm trying to make the connection between the Judeo-Christian concept of a creator and the fact the universe has not been fully explored.

Also could you thoroughly describe this possibly alien Creator person for me?  Is it humanoid, male, female?  Does the Creator have arms and legs?  What sort of abilities does said being possess?  Please go into detail.

Quote from: "pedricero matao"Why believe in something that is not constricted to our physical universe and define it with "manly" parameters (such as benevolence, judgement, wrath, etc) if that thing is supposedly "outside" spacetime and therefore cannot be related to anything that applies in our universe?

I agree 100% with the point you are making here. I've wondered that myself. How can we use our universe's laws on "god" if "god" supposedly exists outside of our universe?

Quote from: "pedricero matao"(bah I screwed it up again with my English, sorry about that)

Your english is just fine. I rather enjoy reading your posts.  


edit: screwed up quoting somehow. oops.

Explain to me why god should be the first explanation for the stuff that we do not understand and the space that we haven't explored at this point in time?  Seriously, its ok that we don't understand absolutely everything at this point in time.  And another thing, no one is 100% certain, or at least they shouldn't be.  Someone can be very very convinced in their belief, but to say that this issue has some absolute position is ignorance on the side saying it.  

Another thing, is it just me or do other people hate when scientists from years and years ago get dragged into debates like this?  I'm not saying that guys  like Lord Kelvin and Issac Newton aren't smart, because they were brilliant minds who contributed a ton to science, but scientific understanding has astronomically progressed in recent history and it just seems counter-productive to bring old ideas into the debate.  That would be like me using Lord Kelvin's plum pudding model of the atom to explain chemistry to someone today, in 2009.

Pslam23,

First of all, I know it is not the Biblical god because the Bible God is logically inconsistent and therefore incoherent.

Second, are you saying that because we cannot explore the entire universe (and that is assuming that the universe has an edge) that we should assume a god exists?  Talk about guessing...  Please see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps)

To me, and this is why I'm an atheist, it makes more sense to no make claims about something for which we have no knowledge.  God is a made up answer to an unanswerable question that a lot of people like because it satisfies our natural desire to want to have answers.  

Some like to call the universe god, but to me that is just  renaming something since there is no reason to worship the universe.  Others believe in a deist god, which is fine, but I don't see a reason to think one exists other than to satisfy concerns about a first cause (and I think the first cause could be the universe or some other natural event prior to the universe...or maybe a first cause is unnecessary).  Of course, if a deist god exists I don't think anyone will ever find out alive or dead since a deist god is not involved.

That said....even if it were illogical to not believe in a god for some reason; that still wouldn't change the fact that there isn't any reliable evidence for a god let alone your God.

F

F

F

Quote from: "maestroanth"If there wasn't a Deist God, that pretty much means time is irrelevant since it would both be an infinite line both forward and backward.  

How does a deist god not existing mean that time is infinate?

Quote from: "maestroanth"I get flamed pretty bad on this forum as well, so don't feel bad.

Honestly, and this is not to scare you off, if you think disagreeing with you is flaming then you might want to stay away from any free thought forums.  Free thinkers like to argue and are use to challanging each other's views.

Quote from: "maestroanth"I tend to slant to believe just to keep my hopes high and my morals in check. If I was an atheist, I'd see no reason to not fill my "morally wrong" desires. I think that faith is part of an evolutionary concept to keep us in comfort from cold logic. If everything is in cold logic, you'd see bad consequences just as you would in cold religion.

If we had to have religion in order to live in groups (in order to be ethical) then humans would have never been able to evolve into the social beings we are today.  For logic, as it relates to morality, to be cold it would have to leave out the factors which make it benefitial to the individual to want to act morally.  But, this is for a different thread.

btw, what philosophies have you read besides Kant?

F

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This is the only post we'll get from this troll. I guarantee it.

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Quote from: "MariaEvri"we have
that's why we are atheists

Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Quote from: "maestroanth"I tend to agree half-way in the middle with you.  I get flamed pretty bad on this forum as well, so don't feel bad.  I should find a happy agnostic page or something so more people agree with me, (but then what's the fun in that! lol).

Data just tends to point to the universe may be infinite, but like you said, it's still just a guess.  Being 100% sure there is a god (as in a philosophical way) is just another guess.  

I tend to slant to believe just to keep my hopes high and my morals in check.  If I was an atheist, I'd see no reason to not fill my "morally wrong" desires.  I think that faith is part of an evolutionary concept to keep us in comfort from cold logic.  If everything is in cold logic, you'd see bad consequences just as you would in cold religion.

South Park is right on a level, if everything was based around on cold logic you'd see fighting and feuding over that just as you would religion.

Well, back to reading some immanuel kant.

All best

This is my second visit in this forum, and from the replies on my O.P, I can see there are some disgruntled people in here that like spew childish names at religious people, especially Christians. Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

Islamic believers can use airplanes as guided missiles and fly them into buildings, stone non-believers to death, hang people who disobey Allah, blow up cars and trucks, wage war on the world all in the name of Allah, and nothing is said about that, but Christians are reminded daily of the Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago, or child molesting Priests. but the second an Islamic believer detonates a car bomb in the name of Allah, you can hear a pin drop in the atheist crowd.

I wonder how many atheists screamed, "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9-11-01?

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "MariaEvri"we have
that's why we are atheists

Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Yes, because atheists are really the ones following the crowd and believing what everybody else is.  Give me a break.  But still, explain to me how not knowing all the facts about the Universe should lead us to worshiping a god.  I don't see the connection, yet you do because its all you've ever known to do in your life.

Quote from: "Psalm23"This is my second visit in this forum, and from the replies on my O.P, I can see there are some disgruntled people in here that like spew childish names at religious people, especially Christians. Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

Islamic believers can use airplanes as guided missiles and fly them into buildings, stone non-believers to death, hang people who disobey Allah, blow up cars and trucks, wage war on the world all in the name of Allah, and nothing is said about that, but Christians are reminded daily of the Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago, or child molesting Priests. but the second an Islamic believer detonates a car bomb in the name of Allah, you can hear a pin drop in the atheist crowd.

I wonder how many atheists screamed, "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9-11-01?

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Quote from: "Psalm23"Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

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Quote from: "Psalm23"Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Why aren't you agnostic? You seem to make agnostic arguments. Why is it that a strong atheist or antitheist is wrong for having an absolute nonbelief in god, but a theist is right for having an absolute belief in god, given that they have access to the same incomplete data?

Quote from: "Psalm23"The entire universe cannot be explored. As a matter of fact.. mankind has not even scratched the surface of the Universe, so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

That is by far the most absurd argument ever displayed.

Please, sir, do not put on airs.  I do agree with you that your argument is absurd, as you yourself say above, but it's hardly "the most absurd argument ever displayed." I've heard more absurd arguments coming from 5th graders, and I know that if you try really hard (maybe ask Jesus for help) you can come up with an argument that is even more incoherent and nonsensical than this one.   I think you may be onto something here, though.   Every one knows that atheists love an absurd argument; am I right?

I appreciate the fact that you took time out of your busy day sub pontus, as it were, to brighten our dreary, godless lives.

Quote from: "Psalm23"The entire universe cannot be explored. As a matter of fact.. mankind has not even scratched the surface of the Universe, so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

Gee, no one's ever said it like that before.  Faced with such a masterful argument, I guess I have no choice other than to believe.  Thank you for showing me the light.

Oh, I've never heard the statement that since we don't have all the answers to everything, god must be real.  

Quote from: "Psalm23"Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

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Quote from: "Psalm23"The entire Universe cannot be explored by any mortal man. That is a guaranteed fact of life. Even the greatest minds throughout history; such as Albert Einstein, Lord Kelvin William Thompson and Isaac Newton could not figure out what "Mysterious Force" moves our Constellation. So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

Not all atheists claim to know with 100% certainty there is no god. They just don't believe in any god.
Your argument only targets strong atheism. And instead of arguing for theism it argues for agnosticism, because it cuts both ways.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheism is nothing more than a guess, at best.

No, see, that's where the lack of proof for any god comes in.
The absence of proof for any god, makes it an educated guess, and renders theism into wishful thinking.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Thanks for your time,
Psalm 23.

Invoice will follow  

Psalm23,

This forum is not for preaching but you are welcome to debate your views.  A lot of counterpoints have been offered which you should be addressing rather than going off on tangents.  Also, you need to familiarize yourself with definitions related to the word atheist because it is very apparent that you don't know what most of us mean when we say we are atheists.

For Theists, What is an atheist:  viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830)

Theists:  Guidelines for a smooth discussion:  viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92)

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You're promoting agnosticism, not theism.

QuoteApparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist.

The only we have both given it an equal donation of thought is if yours was in search for justifying your beliefs. Where as ours is open minded. By the way I don't believe what I do because I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist because of my beliefs. But somehow I receive the feeling you have allowed one conviction to change them all for you.

QuoteI find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe.

Really? You don't think that those with higher intellect would be less copious than the mediocre? Remember, in an insane world the sane man would be insane.

QuoteI can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Yes, let's pretend to know what has induced behavior and beliefs in every individual pertaining to a certain group. That's not a barrage of prejudice and ignorance at all.

F

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Why aren't you agnostic? You seem to make agnostic arguments. Why is it that a strong atheist or antitheist is wrong for having an absolute nonbelief in god, but a theist is right for having an absolute belief in god, given that they have access to the same incomplete data?

I totally agree in this.

F

Quote from: "maestroanth"I'm confused, why was I quoted.  Allah sucks just as much as Christianity IMO.

I'm just agnostic whaaa.....

My guess is that you were quoted because Psalm23 was just skimming relplies rather than reading them, saw a hint of agreement in your post, then wrongly assumed you were a Christian.

F

Quote from: "Psalm23"So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

How can you know 100% fact that it is God? Same thing.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

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So....awesome.....Love......you!

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "MariaEvri"we have
that's why we are atheists

Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be an atheist. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God does not exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe atheists are just disgruntled former believers?

Apparently you haven't given it much thought, or you wouldn't be a believer. I find it absurd how a small minority of the human race can say, "God DOES exist" without having the 100% facts about the Universe. I can't help but to think that maybe believers are just disgruntled former atheists?

See, I can play that game too.  And yes, American Christians are a small percentage of the human race when compared to the total of all other belief systems.  So why do you believe you alone are right and the rest of the world is wrong?  

Quote from: "Psalm23"This is my second visit in this forum, and from the replies on my O.P, I can see there are some disgruntled people in here that like spew childish names at religious people, especially Christians. Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

Islamic believers can use airplanes as guided missiles and fly them into buildings, stone non-believers to death, hang people who disobey Allah, blow up cars and trucks, wage war on the world all in the name of Allah, and nothing is said about that, but Christians are reminded daily of the Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago, or child molesting Priests. but the second an Islamic believer detonates a car bomb in the name of Allah, you can hear a pin drop in the atheist crowd.

I wonder how many atheists screamed, "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9-11-01?

Christianity has a bullseye on its back?  Only because your good book tells you so and you take every opportunity to tell everyone how wrong they are.

I refuse to play the "which religion is worse" game with you because in my mind, they are all equally horrible, manipulating, money-hungry entities.  I don't care when religious attrocities occurred... they are all equally immoral and wrong.

And I'm sure many atheists screamed "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9/11 because it's a modern colloquialism that has no meaning whatsoever.  I scream it in bed as well... ecstacy or tragedy, it works both ways.

Well, I'm not an atheist, but I will address this as well, and hope that you won't mind.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Hello Happy Atheists Forum,

I have something on my mind, and I want to share it with you.

I have run across thousands of skeptics and atheists on the internet that like to claim,
"God cannot be proven due to lack of evidence."

If you accept this point then as long as an atheist defines their position as simply non-theism, rather than a belief in the falseness of theism, their position is justified.

QuoteThe entire Universe cannot be explored by any mortal man. That is a guaranteed fact of life. Even the greatest minds throughout history; such as Albert Einstein, Lord Kelvin William Thompson and Isaac Newton could not figure out what "Mysterious Force" moves our Constellation. So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

One doesn't need to know something for 100% fact. Nothing is known for 100% fact. This same argument can be made about unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, or anything else. In order to stay consistent with this, you must refrain from denying the existence of anything that you cannot demonstrate with 100% certainty does not exist, and unless the thing in question is logically impossible, that cannot be done.

QuoteThe entire universe cannot be explored. As a matter of fact.. mankind has not even scratched the surface of the Universe, so how can anyone say with sheer confidence that God does not exist?

For the reason that you offered already. They believe that the proposition lacks sufficient evidence to warrant credulity. This is how everyone operates in the world. Credulity is earned with evidence, and beliefs require justification if there is reason to question them. Surely you don't believe everything until it you have falsified it? An orthodox Christian worldview demands that one reject thousands of other gods, and all other purportedly supernatural, or miraculous phenomena. Saying "well I have to reject all of those in order to continue believing what I believe" is not a very good justification in my humble opinion.  

QuoteThat is by far the most absurd argument ever displayed.

I wouldn't say the most absurd ever, but it was pretty bad.  

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"I agree 100% with the point you are making here. I've wondered that myself. How can we use our universe's laws on "god" if "god" supposedly exists outside of our universe?

Well, the universe isn't a thing that stuff can be outside of. The universe is the compilation of all things known and supposed to exist throughout space. Location is itself spacial. The physical dimensions is what makes "location" possible. There literally are no locations outside of space -- there is no "outside" of space. It makes about as much sense as saying "north of the north pole".

If god exists, and is truly responsible for the physical universe, and is itself something different than material, then it does not occupy a point in space, nor does it exist "outside" of space. Its ontological status would not be describable with natural, material, physical descriptions. Also, I find it rather silly to think that if we look over the universe hard enough, we'd be sure to find god's beach house on some remote planet.  

I find it strange that Psalm23 seems to be saying that if we looked over the universe hard enough, we could actually, and physically locate god.  

QuoteThis is my second visit in this forum, and from the replies on my O.P, I can see there are some disgruntled people in here that like spew childish names at religious people, especially Christians. Christianity has had a bullseye on it's back since it's birth.

Christians put bullseyes on every other religion's. (Exuse grammar.)

QuoteIslamic believers can use airplanes as guided missiles and fly them into buildings, stone non-believers to death, hang people who disobey Allah, blow up cars and trucks, wage war on the world all in the name of Allah, and nothing is said about that, but Christians are reminded daily of the Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago, or child molesting Priests. but the second an Islamic believer detonates a car bomb in the name of Allah, you can hear a pin drop in the atheist crowd.

Um, we actually do complain, See Pat Condell. It's just fear of standing up to something and being called a bigot, racist, E.t.c.

QuoteI wonder how many atheists screamed, "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9-11-01?

LOL. I said "What the..."

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Islamic believers can use airplanes as guided missiles and fly them into buildings, stone non-believers to death, hang people who disobey Allah, blow up cars and trucks, wage war on the world all in the name of Allah, and nothing is said about that, but Christians are reminded daily of the Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago, or child molesting Priests. but the second an Islamic believer detonates a car bomb in the name of Allah, you can hear a pin drop in the atheist crowd.

I wonder how many atheists screamed, "OH MY GOD" on the morning of 9-11-01?[/quote]

1. Because America is Jesusland, not Allahland. And it's nothing new to hear about a car bomb now a days.
2. I didn't scream "OH MY GOD", I was in 4th grade bud, so I was just looking around the room and didn't understand what was going on. Sorry to break it to you, I remember that day, and I don't believe I said that.

I still believed in a god on 9/11.  I think I said "I can't believe the physics professor is going to make us take the exam even though this just happened."  The only time I've ever really said "oh my god" is in the typically valley girl sense ex:  "Omg, those shoes are so cute"  So, it's in my vocabulary in the most annoying way possible.  I've never said it when truly shocked by something (at least not that I can remember), I have more 'colorful' words for those situations.

What I didn't think on 9/11: "OMG, we're being attacked by radical atheists!"

I doubt I said 'oh my god' but if I did, it would have been a figure of speech nothing to do with asking god why this was happening. I definitely said 'Fuck Me!' I wasn't asking the nearest woman for sex, though. It was an exclamation at the fact that a fully laden passenger plane had flown into one of the towers and as I stood watching a bank of TV's in a supermarket, another plane flew into the other tower. I love architecture and to see two buildings I loved very much getting destroyed in front of my eyes, and to think I was watching thousands of lives getting snuffed out at that moment - for no fucking reason - was certainly worth a whole bunch of expletives.

In fact, people like you make me sick. Trying to use something as horrible as 9/11 to try to tell us that we do in fact believe in god is atrocious... But I expect that sort of tactic from religious people. After all, it was religion which spurned some nutters into thinking blowing up the twin towers to be a good idea.

I really didn't wrap my mind around it at first, I heard about the first plane from a co-worker while on a way to a meeting and didn't think much of it, then heard about the 2nd while in the meeting and my first thought was "what the hell is traffic control doing over there?"  It never occured to me to mention or think of God, not even as we watched it on tv for the rest of the day at work and myself throughout the evening at home.  Still wish my first thought was right.

F

I have read through a few of the responses here.....Interesting.....I guess some debate is always good.....and keeps the engines rolling. HA!
Seriously though, I don't want to think about it....As a 2 year old in a crib, I did not believe in god....why should I now? I contemplated alot in the crib and remember some conversations with myself...another story.....but.....anyway...back to the point...I am more apt to believe in the parallel universes and things that the string theory proposes....
I am an atheist and agnostic both......but rather just call myself a free thinker and leave it at that...I sure would not want to believe in only ONE divine being in control of everything, and from what I have seen....don't like much of his work...Kind of cruel in some spots.....so I think it is just the process of evolution .... Darwin makes more sense to me. As Simon Cowell would say...."sorry........" I also feel religions are a form of brainwashings.....and I do not have too much tolerence for them....as such.....If told like tales like Peter Rabbit and The Tooth Fairy, I might find things a bit more amusing......instead of annoying....ie...The Bible...

Quote from: "Kevin"

Quote from: "Psalm23"So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

How can you know 100% fact that it is God? Same thing.

I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  

Quote from: "Lilbeth"I have read through a few of the responses here.....Interesting.....I guess some debate is always good.....and keeps the engines rolling. HA!
Seriously though, I don't want to think about it....As a 2 year old in a crib, I did not believe in god....why should I now? I contemplated alot in the crib and remember some conversations with myself...another story.....but.....anyway...back to the point...I am more apt to believe in the parallel universes and things that the string theory proposes....
I am an atheist and agnostic both......but rather just call myself a free thinker and leave it at that...I sure would not want to believe in only ONE divine being in control of everything, and from what I have seen....don't like much of his work...Kind of cruel in some spots.....so I think it is just the process of evolution .... Darwin makes more sense to me. As Simon Cowell would say...."sorry........" I also feel religions are a form of brainwashings.....and I do not have too much tolerence for them....as such.....If told like tales like Peter Rabbit and The Tooth Fairy, I might find things a bit more amusing......instead of annoying....ie...The Bible...

Hello! That's why I visit this forum..I like a good debate, but the Moderators are claiming that I am preaching.

But anyway.. As a 2 year old child.. how do you know that you did NOT Believe in God? Do you have 100% Scientific evidence?

God is not cruel, it's mankind that is cruel.

God formed Adam & Eve in a perfect serene enviroment, but sin and evil was exposed to them, and the world will never be the same. God told Adam, "You shall surely die!" Did you know we are the only species that knows in advance that we are going to die?

You must remember, it is not God who is cruel, it is mankind that abuses it's free-will. We are a very intelligent species, we know right from wrong.

Religion is not a form of brainwashing! Heck, I didn't even know what religion was until my early teens. My family was anything but religious. I found God and Chrisitianity on my own. I didn't attend Catholic school by the force of my parents.

Quote from: "Will"What I didn't think on 9/11: "OMG, we're being attacked by radical atheists!"

No, atheists just like to attend Nativity scenes during Christmas wearing, "Jesus is a faggot" t-shirts. Atheists have murdered billions throughout the centuries. Shall I list the astrocites atheists have caused towards Christianity? Especially in Germany and Russia in the 30's and 40's? Religion was banned from Russia! Anyone who was caught worshipping Christ was sentenced to death by firing squad, or hanging.

Atheists are far from innocent.

I was watching a Prison documentary on MSNBC Saturday night, and the interviewer asked a serial killer who savagely butchered 15 people, "Do you believe in God?" He replied, "What God? there is no God!"

Quote from: "Psalm23"But anyway.. As a 2 year old child.. how do you know that you did NOT Believe in God? Do you have 100% Scientific evidence?

To quote Marcus Brigstocke (http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Marcus_Brigstocke), "A four year old is no more a Christian than he is a member of the postal workers’ union." You completely busted your own argument when you said you didn't even know about religion until you were in your teens. Look, humans have a sense of wonder, an imagination. It's an evolutionary boon: who cares if it's a werewolf or a real wolf that scares you from going into the dark woods, as long as you don't go and don't get eaten? Do some reading on the history of the psychology of religion.

Also, children will believe anything: Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, God, Monster Under the Bed. Belief does not denote existence.

Quote from: "Psalm23"God is not cruel, it's mankind that is cruel. ... You must remember, it is not God who is cruel, it is mankind that abuses it's free-will.

Oh... Oh my... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh, Christ on a cracker, thank you for that. I needed a good laugh. Have you even read the Old Testament?!

Quote from: "Psalm23"No, atheists just like to attend Nativity scenes during Christmas wearing, "Jesus is a faggot" t-shirts.

Did you make this up or do you have a link to share with us? Anyway, if Jesus was real, it's possible he was a homosexual. I mean there's no evidence to suggest he wasn't homosexual.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists have murdered billions throughout the centuries.

Before you open that can of worms, you should give this a read:
http://teapotatheism.blogspot.com/2008/ ... so-he.html (http://teapotatheism.blogspot.com/2008/06/anonymous-wanted-body-count-total-so-he.html)
The death toll for theism is horrific. If you insist that all atheists share the blame for atheist atrocities, then you must take responsibility for theist atrocities.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Shall I list the astrocites atheists have caused towards Christianity? Especially in Germany and Russia in the 30's and 40's?

Nazi Germany was Christian. Hitler was baptized Roman Catholic, went to monastery school, he communed and was an altar boy in the Catholic church, he planned on becoming a priest, he was never excommunicated, worked closely with the Pope (Pius), and he even enacted religious laws (ban on abortion, outlawed homosexuality, corporal punishment in schools, etc.). Here's a quote from Hitler:
“The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.  It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.”  â€"Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934

Quote from: "Psalm23"Religion was banned from Russia! Anyone who was caught worshiping Christ was sentenced to death by firing squad, or hanging.

Ah, but it turns out Stalin probably wasn't actually an atheist. He was likely a deist. Historian Simon Sebag Montefiore established that Stalin believed in god.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Will"What I didn't think on 9/11: "OMG, we're being attacked by radical atheists!"

No, atheists just like to attend Nativity scenes during Christmas wearing, "Jesus is a faggot" t-shirts. Atheists have murdered billions throughout the centuries. Shall I list the astrocites atheists have caused towards Christianity? Especially in Germany and Russia in the 30's and 40's? Religion was banned from Russia! Anyone who was caught worshipping Christ was sentenced to death by firing squad, or hanging.

Atheists are far from innocent.

I was watching a Prison documentary on MSNBC Saturday night, and the interviewer asked a serial killer who savagely butchered 15 people, "Do you believe in God?" He replied, "What God? there is no God!"

Sources, please, and yes.  That's all I have to say for now.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I was watching a Prison documentary on MSNBC Saturday night, and the interviewer asked a serial killer who savagely butchered 15 people, "Do you believe in God?" He replied, "What God? there is no God!"

But what of the far greater number of serial killers who have stated that God told them to do it?

If atheists are all evil then why are American prisons so full of Christians and Muslims instead of atheists?

If Christians are so much more moral than everyone else, why do Christians, per capita, have MORE abortions, teen pregnancies, and teen STDs than any other religion or non-religion in the US?  Is it all the big mean (and too smart to get caught, apparently) atheist rapists bringing these things upon the innocent Christian teens?

Mind you, I don't directly blame Christianity for Christians committing more crimes and being more careless (on average) about teen sexual practices, I think it's just that conditions that also create criminals and ignorance of the human body create Christians - poor education, poverty, and other types of suffering.  And I don't mean you have to be stupid or poorly educated to believe, I mean that suffering in situations where there's no real life hope tends to make people seek whatever hope exists even if it's hope centered around a fantasy.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I like a good debate, but the Moderators are claiming that I am preaching.

Seems to me the moderators may be onto something here.

As for the rest of your "arguments", I don't even feel the need to bother. Everyone else seems to be doing a good enough job showing how ridiculous they are.

Quote from: "Will"Did you make this up or do you have a link to share with us? Anyway, if Jesus was real, it's possible he was a homosexual. I mean there's no evidence to suggest he wasn't homosexual.

Are you really defending that if it is true? He said "faggot" which is a derogatory slang towards homosexuals. If that really was what it says, then they are clearly attempting to insult Christians by recklessly using homosexuality as a vehicle with zero regard for collateral damage. Everything about that is crass.  

QuoteAh, but it turns out Stalin probably wasn't actually an atheist. He was likely a deist. Historian Simon Sebag Montefiore established that Stalin believed in god.

That is a controversial subject, and if it were "established" then it would not be controversial within the field of history, but it is.

What it is, is irrelevant, and an association fallacy.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Are you really defending that if it is true? He said "faggot" which is a derogatory slang towards homosexuals. If that really was what it says, then they are clearly attempting to insult Christians by recklessly using homosexuality as a vehicle with zero regard for collateral damage. Everything about that is crass.

It's not likely true and I'm not being serious. Same thing with the Stalin thing.

Quote from: "Will"It's not likely true and I'm not being serious. Same thing with the Stalin thing.

After reading your comment again, I can see that I perhaps misinterpreted it. I apologize.  

Quote from: "Hitsumei"After reading your comment again, I can see that I perhaps misinterpreted it. I apologize.  

No worries.

We're not even sure if Hitler was Christian, but of course that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's not like he did what he did because he was Christian or deist or atheist. He did it because he was an asshole. Same thing with Stalin. The fact that Stalin might have been atheist is no more to the point than he had a mustache. A wonderful mustache on such a bad person is a real shame. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clipartof.com%2Fimages%2Femoticons%2Fxsmall2%2F209_mustache_man_smiling.gif&hash=8e22bb245a803524cf97d21052da2d24ba9e32d4)

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"After reading your comment again, I can see that I perhaps misinterpreted it. I apologize.  

No worries.

We're not even sure if Hitler was Christian, but of course that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's not like he did what he did because he was Christian or deist or atheist. He did it because he was an asshole. Same thing with Stalin. The fact that Stalin might have been atheist is no more to the point than he had a mustache. A wonderful mustache on such a bad person is a real shame. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clipartof.com%2Fimages%2Femoticons%2Fxsmall2%2F209_mustache_man_smiling.gif&hash=8e22bb245a803524cf97d21052da2d24ba9e32d4)

Agreed.

Well, Psalm, I give you kudos for coming to an atheist forum and taking most on....You have more balls than I....Can't see that I would walk into a den of religious people and take them all on, basically single handedly......You must have thick skin or something.....LOL! Maybe we are nicer, too....LOL!
Anyway, of course I have no proof of my thinkings as a small child......of course not......
As a 3 year old, I was playing with a small pet turtle I had, and accidentally cracked its shell somehow. It did not die right away, but my father came home and yelled at me, and told me it was going to die and I was at fault......I was not upset that he yelled at me....but I felt like the worst person alive right then because of my feelings of what I had done to the turtle...my own remorse, regret and overwhelming sadness changed me from that day forward to feeling very sad and guilty.....I have never gotten over that...Now, religion was never something in my home, as my parents were both non-believers....so I did not fear any reward or punishment for what I had done....My father already yelled at me, and that was over...no more punishment or being yelled at would ensue....so my feelings of sorrow  were for that turtle.......period....not for me.....
Now, how can you say that man is evil? I don't think I had or have an evil nature......instrinsically...I cannot speak for anyone else, but I can speak for myself here....
I don't think any of us come into this world with an evil nature.....maybe still a little savage still due to our primitive brain cells and Darwinism.....and I do believe that some are more evolved that others here.....Dolphins are generally very gentle and docile and helpful....and they are not believers in a god that i know of......Their neo cortexes are said to be longer than ours, though.
Do you think the need for religion is people's need for a parental figure still to be in charge to reward or punish?...It alleviates much guilt when we are punished.....doesn't it?....but when we are just left with our ownselves and have to take on the responsibility of what we do ALONE and the consequences for it....doesn't it get a little bit more difficult? I think so.....anyway......
Desmond Morris says that religion is man's weapon to fight the knowingness that death is imminent...Only death is not really imminent in our species....but we know about it and know it is coming, so in our minds, it is always imminent... our weapon of choice to fight this unknown monster is religion.........
I don't know where I am going here....really....just some random thoughts I am putting forth, i guess....I am sure I will have more here in a bit....
Anyway....hope you stick around....we are really a nice lot.....

Correction...I did take on a bunch of self righteous religious people on a doll forum once about their religion......about 3 years ago...i am still feeling the effects of that....LOL! People wanted to crucify me! I had the balls because the owner of the forum is an atheist, though.

Also....lol...I am good with continual adds.....
I really don't recognize the word evil...
I recognize savage.....
man's inhumanity to man.....
chemical imbalances
sick

Neurological tests are being done and ongoing of the brains of criminals....I think alot needs to be learned here.......
If someone has something lacking in their brain to make them more savage than normal....they are sick, not evil, right?
I still have to think more on this subject and learn more......though...
Things I do think about, though.....

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "Psalm23"I was watching a Prison documentary on MSNBC Saturday night, and the interviewer asked a serial killer who savagely butchered 15 people, "Do you believe in God?" He replied, "What God? there is no God!"

But what of the far greater number of serial killers who have stated that God told them to do it?

If atheists are all evil then why are American prisons so full of Christians and Muslims instead of atheists?

If Christians are so much more moral than everyone else, why do Christians, per capita, have MORE abortions, teen pregnancies, and teen STDs than any other religion or non-religion in the US?  Is it all the big mean (and too smart to get caught, apparently) atheist rapists bringing these things upon the innocent Christian teens?

Mind you, I don't directly blame Christianity for Christians committing more crimes and being more careless (on average) about teen sexual practices, I think it's just that conditions that also create criminals and ignorance of the human body create Christians - poor education, poverty, and other types of suffering.  And I don't mean you have to be stupid or poorly educated to believe, I mean that suffering in situations where there's no real life hope tends to make people seek whatever hope exists even if it's hope centered around a fantasy.

Sit down and watch this video. It's about the astrocities that atheists have caused throughout history.

No other religion has been persecuted by atheists. Only Christianity.

Jesus said to his Disicples, "My people will be persecuted because of my name!"

You atheists are only making Jesus' word that much more true. Thank you!

Who would have thought 2,000 years later, people such as atheists would still be worried about a 1st century Rabbi. lol.

I saw an atheist wearing a t-shirt that reads; "Jesus is a cu*t" But wait a gosh darn second!! I thought Jesus didn't exist?? so how can he be considered a cu*t? This is further proof that atheists are just rebellious towards Christianity.

I would pay $500 U.S dollars to any atheist(s) who are willing to wear a t-shirt in Iran or Iraq that reads, "Allah is a fag!" Any takers? This kind of stuff only happens where it's acceptable by law. The Iranian citizens would stone you to death for wearing a t-shirt like that!

Or how about that Bus advertisement? Are there any atheists that are willing to visit Pakistan or Iran and place an ad on a bus that says, "Allah is imaginary, enjoy your life!" come on atheists.. any takers?

I doubt there will be any takers.. because atheists only run their mouth where it's accepted by law.

Atheists act real tough when they have the law on their side. Iran doesn't play those games! If you disobey Allah in the Islamic Republic.. they hang you! No trial, no jury, straight to the execution chamber! Oh, and if you are Jewish, after they cut off your head.. then they gouge your eyeballs out!

Here is a little history lesson on atheists, and how they have killed way more than any religion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU)

Have a good day!

Why don't you just move to the Saudi Arabia and convert to Islam? You clearly think that they have it all right.

Quote from: "Lilbeth"If someone has something lacking in their brain to make them more savage than normal....they are sick, not evil, right?

Due to our brain giving us a mental world, we tend to view our brain differently from other organs. In fact it works like any organ in our body, and can go wrong the same way any other organ can. I suffer badly from depression, and it annoys me most when people tell me to pull my act together, stop acting like a victim, etc. If someone has a heart attack you don’t tell them to will themselves better do you? Exactly the same thing applies to a person’s brain.

So yes, a person doesn’t necessarily turn ‘evil’ because something in their brain causes them to go around killing people and enjoying it â€" but it certainly has terrible consequences that you could label ‘evil’.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Here is a little history lesson on atheists, and how they have killed way more than any religion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU)

Have a good day!

Wrong: theists have killed more people than atheists (yay, let’s turn it into a competition instead of denouncing killing altogether!):

Body Count (http://teapotatheism.blogspot.com/2008/06/anonymous-wanted-body-count-total-so-he.html)

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Why don't you just move to the Saudi Arabia and convert to Islam? You clearly think that they have it all right.

Speaking of Saudi Arabia. There are videos of Islamic radicals beheading someone who slandered or disgraced Allah or Muhammed. In America, using the Lord's name in vain has become a secondary language to some. But in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia, if you use Allah's name in vain.. you go straight to the hanging. Or they hold a public stoning execution. America is too fragile on atheists.. I think we should strap down some stern laws on atheists.

Atheists feel they have the Freedom to say what they want about Christianity, but if the Christians try to speak, the atheists will cry out, "Seperation of Church and State!!!"

It's a double-edged sword, folks.

You can't have it both ways!

Quote from: "Kodanshi"Wrong: theists have killed more people than atheists (yay, let’s turn it into a competition instead of denouncing killing altogether!):

No, I do not want to turn this into a "competition!" I'm only trying to show the person that said, "atheists do not kill." or "there are no radical atheists!" they are wrong!

Atheists are just as guilty as anyone else. We are all humans, reguardless of our religious, or non-religious background!


Atheists claim, "Religious people kill in the name of God!"

My rebutal, what drives an atheist to murder?

Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million people, and he was a atheist-communist!
we all know what happened to Chrisitians/Catholics in the days of Stalin.

The truth can no longer be hidden!

Happy atheists? Yea, only if they are slandering or killing Christians.  

I guess I have no takers on the little trip to Iran?

The Iranian President Ahmoud Ahmadinejad would love to hear your thoughts on Allah, and how he is imaginary!

I bet he would have you stoned to death within an hour.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"After reading your comment again, I can see that I perhaps misinterpreted it. I apologize.  

No worries.

We're not even sure if Hitler was Christian, but of course that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's not like he did what he did because he was Christian or deist or atheist. He did it because he was an asshole. Same thing with Stalin. The fact that Stalin might have been atheist is no more to the point than he had a mustache. A wonderful mustache on such a bad person is a real shame. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clipartof.com%2Fimages%2Femoticons%2Fxsmall2%2F209_mustache_man_smiling.gif&hash=8e22bb245a803524cf97d21052da2d24ba9e32d4)

I don't believe Adolf Hitler was a Christian. For the simple reason, could you imagine Hitler living in the days of Jesus? Jesus would have called him a vicious killer!

"The reason the ancient world was so perfect and serene is because it knew nothing about the Pox and Christianity." - Adolf Hitler - 1943

"Christianity is the invention of sick brains." - Adolf Hitler - 1944

Todays fun facts about Adolf Hitler and Christianity...

Did you know Hitler removed all Holy Bibles from public libraries and schools, and he replaced them with Mein Kampf?

To all atheists who claim "Hitler was a Christian." Can you supply the verses from Jesus Christ that says it's totally acceptable to slaughter the Jews?

I don't know what an atheist thinks, but I do know that Hitler despised the Jews, and Jesus was a Jew. I can't fathom Hitler getting on his knees and worshipping a Jew. lol.

That would be like Saddam Hussein worshipping Buddha.

Quote from: "Psalm23"No other religion has been persecuted by atheists. Only Christianity.

Other religions do not spend every waking moment trying to convert people to their religion.  Christianity persecutes christianity.  You can't even find consensus amongst yourselves.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Who would have thought 2,000 years later, people such as atheists would still be worried about a 1st century Rabbi. lol.

Atheists aren't worried about Jesus or any god.  They simply have to deal with the people that feel the need to use this tool for whatever purpose of their choosing/need.  It's the people we have difficulty with, not someone or something that we don't believe exists.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I saw an atheist wearing a t-shirt that reads; "Jesus is a cu*t" But wait a gosh darn second!! I thought Jesus didn't exist?? so how can he be considered a cu*t? This is further proof that atheists are just rebellious towards Christianity.

How do you know it was an atheist?  Maybe it was a person of another faith that doesn't believe in Jesus and is tired of christians shoving it down their throats.  Maybe it was someone that had been excommunicated or molested by a priest or rebelling against their parents.  I don't have that shirt in my closet and don't know anyone that does.  Poor taste is not proof of anything.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I would pay $500 U.S dollars to any atheist(s) who are willing to wear a t-shirt in Iran or Iraq that reads, "Allah is a fag!" Any takers? This kind of stuff only happens where it's acceptable by law. The Iranian citizens would stone you to death for wearing a t-shirt like that!

Or how about that Bus advertisement? Are there any atheists that are willing to visit Pakistan or Iran and place an ad on a bus that says, "Allah is imaginary, enjoy your life!" come on atheists.. any takers?

I doubt there will be any takers.. because atheists only run their mouth where it's accepted by law.

Atheists act real tough when they have the law on their side. Iran doesn't play those games! If you disobey Allah in the Islamic Republic.. they hang you! No trial, no jury, straight to the execution chamber! Oh, and if you are Jewish, after they cut off your head.. then they gouge your eyeballs out!

Ditto to above comment, sounds like you are missing your calling and should move to a country run by religion not one that practices freedom of religion and expression.  And interesting that you comment on atheists acting real tough...what?  Are we running around on http://www.bittercchristian.com (http://www.bittercchristian.com) telling christians to go to the middle east in their "Jesus is the one true God, Christianity is the one true religion shirt" so they can be beheaded, killed without question, and have their dead eyes ripped out?  Wait, why is it that christians only run around preaching so aggressively in places where it's allowed by law?

Quote from: "Psalm23"Here is a little history lesson on atheists, and how they have killed way more than any religion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU)

Have a good day!

No thanks, one piece of propoganda is just like another.  My not believing in a god has nothing to do with how religious zelots handled religion in the past, or present, that is just the sad part of people and their greed and need for control, has nothing to do with a god.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"

Quote from: "Will"Did you make this up or do you have a link to share with us? Anyway, if Jesus was real, it's possible he was a homosexual. I mean there's no evidence to suggest he wasn't homosexual.

Are you really defending that if it is true? He said "faggot" which is a derogatory slang towards homosexuals. If that really was what it says, then they are clearly attempting to insult Christians by recklessly using homosexuality as a vehicle with zero regard for collateral damage. Everything about that is crass.  

QuoteAh, but it turns out Stalin probably wasn't actually an atheist. He was likely a deist. Historian Simon Sebag Montefiore established that Stalin believed in god.

That is a controversial subject, and if it were "established" then it would not be controversial within the field of history, but it is.

What it is, is irrelevant, and an association fallacy.

Sorry about that. I should have posted the link along with my story. Click this link, and you can see the pictures of atheists wearing "jesus is a cu*t" jackets and t-shirts. This is the same behavior that goes on in a 3rd grade classroom. http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm (http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm)

There is sure alot of hatred towards someone they don't believe in.

I'm starting to think that atheism may be a mental disorder?

Maybe I should attend a Peter Pan convention wearing a shirt "Peter Pan is a homo?"
Do you see the idiocy now?

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists feel they have the Freedom to say what they want about Christianity, but if the Christians try to speak, the atheists will cry out, "Seperation of Church and State!!!"

It's a double-edged sword, folks.

You can't have it both ways!

That doesn't make sense. Separation of church and state prevents religions from imposing their will via the state, through religious justifications on the non-religious, or minority religions.

It doesn't stop the religious from having any less freedom of speech, or any less rights at all. It merely prevents them from enforcing their will without rational or evidential secular justification.

What you are saying is tantamount to claiming persecution because you are being prevented from being able to persecute.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Sorry about that. I should have posted the link along with my story. Click this link, and you can see the pictures of atheists wearing "jesus is a cu*t" jackets and t-shirts. This is the same behavior that goes on in a 3rd grade classroom. http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm (http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm)

There is sure alot of hatred towards someone they don't believe in.

I'm starting to think that atheism may be a mental disorder?

Maybe I should attend a Peter Pan convention wearing a shirt "Peter Pan is a homo?"
Do you see the idiocy now?

I must say that I find it particularly warped to mandate murder and violence in retribution for insult, and saying "homo" and "faggot" without a second thought, but for some reason are unwilling to fully spell out the word "cunt" as if it is somehow worse than the other things that you have said. I think that it is several degrees less inflammatory, and holds far less pejorative vigor. Anyway, I digress.  

There is no cognitive dissonance in saying that Captain Hook was a dick. We make character assessments of fictional characters all the time. It doesn't in the slightest imply that one thinks they are real.

Quote from: "Psalm23"To all atheists who claim "Hitler was a Christian." Can you supply the verses from Jesus Christ that says it's totally acceptable to slaughter the Jews?

Since when do christians abide by the verses in the bible, you pick and choose which to follow at will....and wait were they from Jesus or third party hearsay?  So please, arguing for the bible is the worst argument because chrsitians pick the rosey parts about love and the afterlife and ignore the parts about eating their own children, beating their slaves, and killing themselves after masturbating on the floor before sleeping with their sister-in-law as ordered by god.  When you start following what you consider your word I may listen, but the way christians say "it's the word of god" while simultaneously saying, "it's not meant to be taken literally" is utterly annoying.  Why would you follow something that was designed to confuse and require figurative translation? I'd rather you argued that god spoke to you personally, (which even christians wouldn't believe).

In your picture show there was one atheist with that on his jacket, they weren't all wearing it.  Several said "Got Jesus? Nope" and a lot didn't appear to have anything, others symbols.  This was a rally where you are more outladish.  Where were they harrassing the 3rd grade?

And, same question as before.  Why don't chrsitians run over to the middle east preaching about the one true god and one true religion?  Why do christians only preach where it is allowed by law?  The main difference is atheists don't want to convert everyone to atheism, we simply don't want religion to have rule or to obligate us to traditions/ideals we don't agree with or believe in.  

There are going to be extremists in every group, atheists don't contend all christians are evil and mass murderers, it's silly to compare body counts.

I'm starting to think that atheism may be a mental disorder?


Above statement a quote from you, Psalm....I just LOVE it when someone takes an idea of mine and turns around and uses it against me! Thank you......
I think there are mental disorders, extremists....blah, blah blah in every groupings of people ....Mental disorders do not traget one group.....just like any diease or sickness does not target one group.....Maybe you took it from me....my experience on the forum with the righteous religious folk there ....and I bunched these Christian folk into a whole and said they wanted to crucify me...Sorry, if I made you feel that way....No.....there were some who stayed out of it, as they were afraid and sent me private pm's expressing their annoyances with the others and things.....and then there was the phenomenon of the "group mentality" for many......that seems to take on a psychology all of its own........and this group mentality was on a witch hunt......
I am sorry....this was my experience.......and I think the group mentality thing was more attributable to it than anything else....It got so bad, the owner had to make rules and single me out....even though she was not against me.....but to save her own forum.....

and this group phenomenon had other witch hunts, too, about lots of things...and many people have left that were victims of those...I stuck it out and am still there....have alot of respect now from many there....but still others harbor resentment, STILL.....and make life silently miserable...HA!

Quote from: "VanReal"Since when do christians abide by the verses in the bible, you pick and choose which to follow at will....and wait were they from Jesus or third party hearsay?  So please, arguing for the bible is the worst argument because chrsitians pick the rosey parts about love and the afterlife and ignore the parts about eating their own children, beating their slaves, and killing themselves after masturbating on the floor before sleeping with their sister-in-law as ordered by god.  When you start following what you consider your word I may listen, but the way christians say "it's the word of god" while simultaneously saying, "it's not meant to be taken literally" is utterly annoying.  Why would you follow something that was designed to confuse and require figurative translation? I'd rather you argued that god spoke to you personally, (which even christians wouldn't believe).

I agree with you 100%! The majority of modern-day Christians do not follow Jesus' laws. That is exactly why Jesus Christ saith, "Very few shall enter into the Kingdom of God." I'm even guilty of breaking many laws Jesus laid down. Of course I look at other women with a lustful eye, of course I like to drink alcohol, and occasionally I use vulgar language, but is God going to condemn me to Hellfire because I did not follow all 600+ laws? According to the Bible.. God said, "Believe in Me, and I shall grant you Eternal Life."

QuoteIn your picture show there was one atheist with that on his jacket, they weren't all wearing it.  Several said "Got Jesus? Nope" and a lot didn't appear to have anything, others symbols.  This was a rally where you are more outladish.  Where were they harrassing the 3rd grade?

It's funny I didn't see this guy wearing a "Buddha is a cu*t" t-shirt. Or how about, "Thor is imaginary, move on with your life." ad campaign on a bus?

QuoteAnd, same question as before.  Why don't chrsitians run over to the middle east preaching about the one true god and one true religion?

Are you kidding me right now? I guess you never heard of Christian Missionaries? I have a friend named Jason that travels to the Middle East; (Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon) teaching those people about Jesus Christ.

QuoteWhy do christians only preach where it is allowed by law?  The main difference is atheists don't want to convert everyone to atheism, we simply don't want religion to have rule or to obligate us to traditions/ideals we don't agree with or believe in.

I guess you never heard of Christian Persecution in the Middle East? Christians are being tortured, killed, and sent to prison for life, all for believing in Christ.

I have never looked for sources or researched a dumb youtube video with such rigor before, but you were the first I've seen come here fooled, Psalm, you well may not be the last.  Maybe I'll make a response video.  Take note, I've done all the research myself, so while it may be in error, I doubt you looked for them at all.  In fact, I'll ask why, if it's all true, this isn't all over the place?  This is to atheists what Zeitgeist is to Christians: total bunk.  Without further ado:

5,000 dead clergy in france in 1789 - This appears to be the first year of the French Revolution, and there are no upheavals of the church in this year.  The state tried to take all the church's land and the church refused.  The state took a keen dislike to the church, destroying crosses and church bells, and forcing some 30,000 nonjuring (not accepting the authority of the state) priests to leave the country or be removed from active clergyship.  Legislation was eventually passed that demanded the killing of all nonjuring priests and people harboring them on sight, but all of this taken into account, the deathtoll rests at about 1500, and these deaths did not take place in 1789.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristia ... Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianisation_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution)
http://books.google.com/books?id=VjXHmc ... TcHX4CnL7w (http://books.google.com/books?id=VjXHmc6Z5ZcC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=dechristianisation+of+france+during+the+french+revolution&source=web&ots=8NNRjFA4Fr&sig=CpEiqD7wOPrORg7aWTcHX4CnL7w)
(Note: The video's source is broken, but the site it links to exists.  However, after a search of the site, I was unable to locate anything in regards to the death toll included in the video, or, for that matter, the French Revolution and Dechristinisation of France.)

20,000 believers and clergy by atheists of "Commune of Paris in 1871 - The Commune was a group of socialists and anarchists that took over the city and governmental function for 2 months.  They were regarded as a "people's government," though they issued questionable decrees.  When the Prussian National Guard, and the National Assembly took the control from them, they gave them a very bloody end, the death toll being 20,000.  However, this is not a case of atheists slaying Christians, but is instead entirely political, though clergy were doubtlessly caught up in it.  The video's author implication that there was any religious motive is incorrect, and further, they mixed up the victims with the killers.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune)
(Note: The video author's source of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04168a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04168a.htm) indeed does link to a page about clergy and their followers who were killed, but it was not because of their faith.  They were executed along with anyone else the National Assembly felt like, without being specially singled out.  The page gives no deathtoll, and since it doesn't list out a particularly large number of Christians, it stands to reason the video author is using it dishonestly.  It may also be noted that the title of the page is Martyrs of the Paris Commune, which clearly confused the video author into thinking they were killed by the Paris Commune, rather than being members of it, in actuality.)

1,000,000 Russ ion Orthodox believers martyred by Bolsheviks in USSR in 1917 - I was able to find that millions died as a result of a wrecked, war-torn country, the result of World War One, and the collapse of the economy, but the date given suggests that the video author is citing the October Revolution of the Russian Civil War.  The only number I could find through wiki or google with 1,000,000 dead was the Russian Red Army.  While 20,000,000 died as an end result of the war, these are not martyrs. The only martyrs were 28 bishops and 1,200 priests, and this is the sum total for the 5 years of revolution.  The Bolsheviks detested religion, but they subjected it to ridicule and shut down churches, only killing the upper echelons of the churches and not their full congregations.  It should be clear that the author is either mistaken or lying, as he's off by at least two orders of magnitude.  Also, the USSR didn't exist until 1922.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ci ... #Aftermath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War#Aftermath)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Or ... unist_rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox#Under_Communist_rule)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 18,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,150718,00.html)

60,000 Orthodox (which religion, again?) martyred by Bolsheviks in Georgia in 1918 - I can find no number nor event to correspond to this entry.  The video offers no source, either.

(Aside: I can't help but notice the author will list Catholics being killed as Christian deaths after beginning the video calling them "Pagan temple worshipers led by a pope."  Guess sinner/saint depends wholly on his judgement, which is in line with the video's agenda.)

15,000,000 Christians die in prison camps in USSR - This would be a flooring atrocity, however, there's nothing backing this up.  The author of the video cites no source, death toll of the gulags, while possibly into the millions, the most ghastly number of deaths I an find attributed is 516,841 over the course of three years.  Also, the prison camp population crests at 1.7 million, or 2.5 million if we include the prisons themselves and not just the camps.  While the gulag was an atrocity, it is not what the author tries to make it.  He devalues the deaths of those that atually died, not just Christians, but all the political prisoners and POWs, with his shameless, extravagant false claim.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Early_Soviet_period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Early_Soviet_period)

1,200,000 die as USSR tries to liquidate Roman Catholicism 1925-1950 - I cannot find anything that matches this claim, not even the USSR trying to dissolve the Roman Catholic Church.  It appears to be just another fictional number.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... rsecutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Anti-Clericalism_and_persecutions)
http://www.conservapedia.com/Russian#19 ... he_U.S.S.R (http://www.conservapedia.com/Russian#1917_Revolution_and_the_U.S.S.R). (Oh, yeah, I'm citing Conservapedia's lack of mentioning not just this claimed atrocity, but ALL OF THEM so far)

500,000 Iranian Orthodox Christians are slaughtered by USSR Many are crucified - Google, with all manner of terms and tenses and synonyms and swaps I could think of, found nothing.  But while we're here, just what the hell is an Iranian Orthodox, anyway?


You know what?  I'm done.  This video is so bogus that it isn't worth my further review.  If there is one tiny nugget of truth in this dishonest, ignorant, malevolent piece of trash, then give me that nugget, as I'm done watching this video with any expetation of the dice coming up in a Christian's favor.  Psalm, I can see why you would not have checked sources, and it's very easy to get caught up in being vindicated, but this video is vile rubbish, as much an assault on your credulity as it makes itself out to be a blow against atheists.  Spread the word to anyone that ever tries to cite this video, that it is a - pardon the expletives - shitton of wank.

SUMMARY FOR TL;DR PEOPLE:
The video Psalm linked to is beyond rubbish.  To the point I reviewed it, it is all lies.

Quote from: "PipeBox"...shitton of wank...
SUMMARY FOR TL;DR PEOPLE:
The video Psalm linked to is beyond rubbish.  To the point I reviewed it, it is all lies.

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Quote from: "Psalm23"I agree with you 100%! The majority of modern-day Christians do not follow Jesus' laws. That is exactly why Jesus Christ saith, "Very few shall enter into the Kingdom of God." I'm even guilty of breaking many laws Jesus laid down. Of course I look at other women with a lustful eye, of course I like to drink alcohol, and occasionally I use vulgar language, but is God going to condemn me to Hellfire because I did not follow all 600+ laws? According to the Bible.. God said, "Believe in Me, and I shall grant you Eternal Life."

So which is it, are you in or out?

Quote from: "Psalm23"It's funny I didn't see this guy wearing a "Buddha is a cu*t" t-shirt. Or how about, "Thor is imaginary, move on with your life." ad campaign on a bus?

That may be because Buddha was a man and is not claimed to be the one true god. I also am not of the opinion that Buddhism is a religion, more of a philosophy and they are fine with followers believing in other religions. Just my opinion. And who the heck is Thor and who worships him?  Obvioulsy Thor believers aren't running around converting or I would have heard of it.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Are you kidding me right now? I guess you never heard of Christian Missionaries? I have a friend named Jason that travels to the Middle East; (Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon) teaching those people about Jesus Christ.

I guess you never heard of Christian Persecution in the Middle East? Christians are being tortured, killed, and sent to prison for life, all for believing in Christ.

Please there is minimal attempt at converting muslims from christian missionaries in the middle east.  Let's not act like there is a mob of christians in the middle east converting. That's understandable though as it would be wiser to start in countries where you are the majority, but it doesn't seem to be going that well as far as Islam conversions even within the western world. (A quick google search on info for christians to learn about islamic missions/conversion wasn't promising either.) Apparenlty even the word of god has it's limitations.

http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/missions.htm

http://www.levant.info/MER035.html

Maybe christians would stop being persecuted (although I don't agree they are) if they'd enjoy their religion to themselves or in their communities, spend their lives living as they believe they are supposed to in the word, and stop blundering around trying to make everyone believe.  It's not even appealing how it is preached, doesn't sound warm and fuzzy or like anything I'd want to be part of.

As far as your OP, the argument that you have to be 100% certain of something to believe or not believe is ridiculous.  You can not be 100% certain there is a god just as I can not be 100% certain there is not one yet you still believe and I do not.  Your OP is an invalid argument.

I'm positive my cats can understand me, although I can't prove it and they don't speak to me to confirm, but just because someone says "Van you aren't 100% certain so they can't understand you" doesn't mean I don't still believe it.  (Well, I think I lose them at anything over 3 syllables but below that they're hearing me.)  

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F19%2Fcat_251.jpg&hash=ce7a7e05d7ab230b23d1145146a3ea3aeca05173) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=478)

Quote from: "Psalm23"you can see the pictures of atheists wearing "jesus is a cu*t" jackets and t-shirts.

Nonsense. I love Heavy Metal and I know from years and years ago those tshirts simply show, not a hatred against Jesus, but a love of the band Cradle of Filth. If you happen to look at the front you will see their logo, and a naked nun using a crucifix as a dildo (vestal masturbation).

Does anyone else notice that psalm23 is basically saying that he hates America's freedoms because it does not allow for a christian run country where they run around killing anyone who believes? This guy would've fit right in during the crusades.

Quote from: "Psalm23"There is sure alot of hatred towards someone they don't believe in.

Let me clear something up. I (and this is speaking only on my own behalf) do not hate your god or your jesus, because they don't exist. You, on the other hand, I really dislike. You come on a board where there is no preaching allowed, and preach like your ass is on fire. You tell us that countries where religious people can fully oppress any non-religious folks by any means are better than the U.S. You say that religion is not the basis for most of the human suffering throughout the ages.  
My advice? Leave. Please. Do us all a favor, and go to a christian forum where you can laugh and joke about us going to your hell, and pray for us all day long. Your preaching will get you nowhere here.
That's all I'm going to say about you. I will probably just add you to my ignore list, because something tells me you're gonna keep on doing what you do.

edit:

Quote from: "Psalm23"I'm starting to think that atheism may be a mental disorder?

You come on our forum and tell us this? I want to say, "you are a complete idiot" right now, but I'll refrain.

I was going to say "Thanks Curio, I needed that," but then Van won the thread with that last pic.  At least I'm not irritated anymore.   :lol:

Quote from: "Psalm23"What it is, is irrelevant, and an association fallacy.

Sorry about that. I should have posted the link along with my story. Click this link, and you can see the pictures of atheists wearing "jesus is a cu*t" jackets and t-shirts. This is the same behavior that goes on in a 3rd grade classroom. http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm (http://www.flamewarrior.com/gamow.htm)

There is sure alot of hatred towards someone they don't believe in.

I'm starting to think that atheism may be a mental disorder?[/quote]

By your logic, I could reference the Fred Phelps "God Hates Fags" group then claim that all Christians act that way and therefore Christianity might be a mental disorder.

At least try not to be a bigot.  You could start by taking a look around the forum to familiarize yourself with what most of the athesits here are like.  It's very obvious you haven't bothered because there is a thread where we have been discussing wearing atheist t-shirts and what is appropriate.

Sorry, but I'm not going to be very tolerant of your being here trying to convince us of your views when you don't seem interested in viewing us as normal people.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  

Hmm... feeling versus thought. I wonder which is more accurate?

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Kevin"

Quote from: "Psalm23"So in reality, what makes an atheist so positive that it is not God? How can you know for 100% fact that is it not God?

How can you know 100% fact that it is God? Same thing.

I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  

So what you're saying is that gut feelings trump logic and reason?

So, in your first post you say,

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheism is nothing more than a guess, at best.

as a means of demeaning the atheistic position.

Then you say,

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  :crazy:

Quote from: "Psalm23"No other religion has been persecuted by atheists. Only Christianity.

Jesus said to his Disicples, "My people will be persecuted because of my name!"

You atheists are only making Jesus' word that much more true. Thank you!

Who would have thought 2,000 years later, people such as atheists would still be worried about a 1st century Rabbi. lol.

I saw an atheist wearing a t-shirt that reads; "Jesus is a cu*t" But wait a gosh darn second!! I thought Jesus didn't exist?? so how can he be considered a cu*t? This is further proof that atheists are just rebellious towards Christianity.

I would pay $500 U.S dollars to any atheist(s) who are willing to wear a t-shirt in Iran or Iraq that reads, "Allah is a fag!" Any takers? This kind of stuff only happens where it's acceptable by law. The Iranian citizens would stone you to death for wearing a t-shirt like that!

Or how about that Bus advertisement? Are there any atheists that are willing to visit Pakistan or Iran and place an ad on a bus that says, "Allah is imaginary, enjoy your life!" come on atheists.. any takers?

I doubt there will be any takers.. because atheists only run their mouth where it's accepted by law.

Atheists act real tough when they have the law on their side. Iran doesn't play those games! If you disobey Allah in the Islamic Republic.. they hang you! No trial, no jury, straight to the execution chamber! Oh, and if you are Jewish, after they cut off your head.. then they gouge your eyeballs out!

Here is a little history lesson on atheists, and how they have killed way more than any religion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU)

Have a good day!

I read all of your diatribe here... and what I see is that you are blood-thirsty to eliminate atheists who speak against you.  You want what Islam has... the ability to punish non-believers who speak against them.  It's disgusting, really... I guess you'd like to see all women completely covered and unable to speak without fear of being stoned as well, eh?  Since we're comparing fanatical belief systems?

My BIG issue with believers is their desire to turn their beliefs into laws.  Period.  If they'd lay off that, I'd be satisfied.  Believe, don't believe, I don't care.  But stop inciting violence because you don't like what we have to say against your belief AND insisting we are wrong for saying God doesn't exist without proof yet you can insist he DOES without proof and that's okay.  Equal rights for all beliefs or no rights for any of them.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Here is a little history lesson on atheists, and how they have killed way more than any religion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU)

Have a good day!

The first item in that video is the Catholics and the Inquisition... whoever made that video is one of those "Catholics aren't Christians" fanatics and thus, his entire argument is rendered moot.  "Pagan temple worshipers led by a Pope."  LOL!  

My own mother converted from Lutheran to Catholocism and she considers herself a very devout Christian.  She believes Christ died for her sins.  Period.  That is a Christian by most definitions.

The follows many examples that took place in Russia/USSR.  Going along the widely believed notion that Russians are all atheists (which is patently false, btw), this propaganda puts all of those deaths mistakenly on atheists.  Again, credibility suffers and the rest of the video is irrelevant.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  

Hmm... feeling versus thought. I wonder which is more accurate?

Not that I'm siding with Psalm23 ('cuz I'm not), but feeling has its place.

I certainly didn't use thought to fall in love with my wife.
... and I'm damn sure not gonna use feelings to work out my taxes!

Matters of faith are "feeling" ones... which is why it usually ends so badly when one tries to prove them logically.

Books are written (and edited) by humans, and as such are flawed.
Even science books.

The difference is that people who believe in "holy" books assume the book to be inerrant.
... and those who follow the path of science are always looking for errors.

Perfection is not attainable.  It is a path, not a goal.
Science is on that path.

Any belief that cannot examine itself and change is stagnant.
All flaws will forever remain flaws.

The earth is not flat.
Pi is not 3.
No single boat can hold 2 (or 7) of every species on the earth.

The bible is right about a lot of things... but every error uncovered will remain forever.
Those that believe it to be correct, in spite of evidence to the contrary, are doomed to wallow in ignorance.

I believe in a higher power.

... I also like a good slice of key lime pie,
JoeActor

Joe, you're ace, but I suppose the big difference is that loving a person, while not done through the process of reason (at least not as we typically think of it), doesn't stand hard against it.  God doesn't seem to be compatible, at least not any version I'd consider worthy or worship, after you account for the natural disasters and hardship.  Well, not entirely, you just made me think of a deist concept I'd take, one where God made the universe but didn't know life would emerge (the universe has uncertainty laws, that even if a god created, they still might be subject to), or even that it'd last more than two seconds, but it also made the universe unalterable, whether by design or just as a consequence of some other consideration.  God, in this sense, may greatly desire to help us, but cannot.  Problem with this version of God is that it strips the Bible of any possibility of miracles, and cannot save us from death as we are still "just" matter and energy.  Of course, that's all just fancy, but it's kinda fun from time to time to see what gods you can envision that don't conflict with reality.

But yeah, I don't base any statement of external fact on internal feeling.  Claiming that you, or anyone else, can "feel" God is just fine, if you're willing to admit it's in your head.  No one is going to do that.  Rather, God is a feeling, but one about the external universe, and those, much like feelings of the world being the center of the universe, stationary in space, and flat, are wrong, more often than not.  Now, you loving your wife, that is entirely based on your subjective feelings.  [strike:83knmaje]The only truth statement involved is that you love your wife, which you do, because that's the reason you're making the statement.  It's a self-consistent tautology, but the processes in the brain might still be mapped.  This isn't the same as experiencing it, or acting out of it, but it's still observable, so we can say you love your wife by more than just your admission, as well.  Now, you might believe love is an external, omnipresent force, but odds are you believe it's internal.  Same with anger, happiness, and so on.  Feelings of God generally entail God being real to more than just you, and external to you.[/strike:83knmaje]

Just thought of the words I was looking for.  A statement about feeling God almost always carries the implication that God is external to the human condition, whereas other feelings are just that: statements of the human condition.

And yeah, I just waaaay over-explained that.  But that aside, I've got no problem with theism as you seem to practice it, Joe.

Quote from: "joeactor"... I also like a good slice of key lime pie,
JoeActor

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Psalm 23-- I have been reading all the posts in this thread for the past couple days and I must say, you seem like you aren't even trying! This is one of the most disappointing arguments against atheism I have ever seen in my life.

Quote from: "Psalm23"No other religion has been persecuted by atheists. Only Christianity.

So you consider people disagreeing with you and not allowing you to make laws based on your religion, persecution?  You disrespect every Jew that ever lived by doing so.  How DARE you call disagreement and WORDS persecution in the face of CHRISTIANS murdering SIX MILLION human beings for being Jews last century?  THAT is persecution.  A teenager wearing a nasty t-shirt is distasteful, it is not persecution.  Comparing seeing a t-shirt to the systematic rounding up of millions of innocents (by Christians) for the purpose of murdering them is completely disrespectful.

I DARE you to go find a Holocaust survivor's child and compare their parents', culture's and and religion's sufferings to your hurt feelings.  

I also call bullshit on your blanket statement that atheists don't speak out about the atrocities of Islam.  What is that ever-so-famous "Imagine No Religion" photo of the twin towers still standing if not a comment on Islam? Do a damned Google search before lipping off disrespectfully about things you are completely ignorant of.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I would pay $500 U.S dollars to any atheist(s) who are willing to wear a t-shirt in Iran or Iraq that reads, "Allah is a fag!" Any takers? This kind of stuff only happens where it's acceptable by law. The Iranian citizens would stone you to death for wearing a t-shirt like that!

Or how about that Bus advertisement? Are there any atheists that are willing to visit Pakistan or Iran and place an ad on a bus that says, "Allah is imaginary, enjoy your life!" come on atheists.. any takers?

I doubt there will be any takers.. because atheists only run their mouth where it's accepted by law.

Atheists act real tough when they have the law on their side. Iran doesn't play those games! If you disobey Allah in the Islamic Republic.. they hang you! No trial, no jury, straight to the execution chamber! Oh, and if you are Jewish, after they cut off your head.. then they gouge your eyeballs out!

Have you ever been discriminated against in the workplace for being Christian in America?  
Have you ever been beaten and hospitalized for being Christian in America?
Have you ever been stalked or received death threats for being Christian in America?
Does your State's Constitution specifically say you can't testify in court or hold a public office because you are Christian?

It's not Muslims doing those very things to us for being atheists in America, it is Christians.  Why would we complain about Muslims doing these things to us when they are not.  (Aside from the death threats, I've gotten one online from someone who might have been a Muslim.)

So, I take it you want to gouge out our eyes and cut off heads because we don't believe as you do but you'll settle for doing all that you can within the scope of the law?  You really just don't get it.  Muslims are just as vicious and destructive as Christians have been.  But, you see, they aren't legally attacking us in our own country.  They aren't depriving us of our basic human rights (as Christians are trying to do), they aren't letting their children die for religious reasons in our country (as Christians are doing), they aren't discriminating against us in our workplaces (as Christians are doing), they aren't proselytizing our children in school (as Christians are doing), nor are they forcing their religious tenets into law in our country (as Christians are doing)right now.  The second Muslims gain power over our government as Christians have, I can assure you, we'll be all over them.

And to top that off, chances are that none of the atheists here have been beaten bloody by Muslims but don't lay any bets that none of us have been hospitalized by Christians for our absence of belief.  

When vandals are in your back yard, spray painting your car, you deal with them.  You don't sit back and decide to do or say nothing until you can do something about every criminal in existence, you deal with the vandals in your yard.  And Christians are the vandals in our yard who've beaten and abused us - physically, emotionally, economically, and politically.  

And you're crying like a baby because you saw a t-shirt?

Quote from: "joeactor"Not that I'm siding with Psalm23 ('cuz I'm not), but feeling has its place.

Reason is slave to the passions.

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm23"I don't know for 100% fact that it is God. But I believe it is. I have that gut feeling, ya know?  

Hmm... feeling versus thought. I wonder which is more accurate?

Not that I'm siding with Psalm23 ('cuz I'm not), but feeling has its place.

Sure there's nothing wrong with feeling in personal life. But when you're trying to come to a rational conclusion on something, feeling is just bias and needs to be ignored. If our President made every decision based on a feeling or "good vibe" we would deem him a fruit loop and become very upset with him. If your doctor gave you a treatment giving you his reasoning "I got a good feeling about this one" you would hopefully run away. Feelings accomplish nothing other than helping keep you alive at times.

QuoteI certainly didn't use thought to fall in love with my wife.

I did. Love is not a feeling. Not true love anyways. What most consider love is just your brain on drugs when you meet someone new. That's why so many marriages don't last. You need to think rationally when in love otherwise it's just an attraction.

Quote from: "Psalm23"There is sure alot of hatred towards someone they don't believe in.

We make quasi-religious statements. Doesn't mean I hate your God. I can't hate him anymore than one can hate any other fictional character. I do, however, despise those who created your God and use him for their own perverted actions and prejudice.

F

Quote from: "Wendy"Psalm 23-- I have been reading all the posts in this thread for the past couple days and I must say, you seem like you aren't even trying! This is one of the most disappointing arguments against atheism I have ever seen in my life.

Wendy,

It's not an argument, it's the truth.

Atheism has failed on every possible level..

No human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof!

Modern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

There is something about God's existence that drives atheists over the edge. I know of more atheists that talk about God more than the average Christian believer.  

I'm writing a new book called, "Atheism; the obsession of God's existence."

Atheism isn't saying "I have 100% proof God doesn't exist", it's saying "I can't prove unicorns and wizards and giant worms living inside the sun don't exist, but I can use my rationality to feel they don't exist with a level of certainty. Also this forum isn't hostile towards agnostics, deists, and even you have your free speech here.  

 Personally I'm quite open minded to the idea of a God out there, but I'm an atheist for the Christian God and all other gods mankind made in their image. And I also use my rationality to infer that if there is a god out there then it is concerned with more important things than our beliefs or our 'sins'.

 I didn't make this forum but let me see if I can explain the reasoning of the person who did - they noticed there were a thousand religious forums so why not one for atheists to gather on. If one lives in an extremely religious part of the world the internet is probably the only place they can exchange their thoughts.

 And you're somewhat obsessed with our 'obsession'. Fail.

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"Atheism isn't saying "I have 100% proof God doesn't exist", it's saying "I can't prove unicorns and wizards and giant worms living inside the sun don't exist, but I can use my rationality to feel they don't exist with a level of certainty.

And that until we have concrete proof of the existence for god we can reject the notion of its existence the same way we can with Bertrand Russell’s celestial teapot, or in Ardena (goddess of the forests of Britain), etc.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Wendy"Psalm 23-- I have been reading all the posts in this thread for the past couple days and I must say, you seem like you aren't even trying! This is one of the most disappointing arguments against atheism I have ever seen in my life.

Wendy,

It's not an argument, it's the truth.

It's the truth to you, doesn't make it fact.

QuoteAtheism has failed on every possible level

I really don't understand what you mean here. I don't really see what 'fail' or 'succeed' has to do with atheism?

QuoteNo human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof

Once again, no human being can say, "There is a god" without having 100% proof. Your gut is not proof.

QuoteModern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

As far as I know, I have the freedom, just as you do, to go online, meet people like me and discuss the issues of my day. If you had looked around you can see this website is much more than just talking about atheism. I've only been a member for a few days, but the only time this discussion has come up is when a christian has come in seemingly trying to convince the members they are wrong.  I'm not protesting anything--you are the one here protesting.

QuoteIf I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

If I believed in something, I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online trying to convince people who didn't. You don't know what I do, or how much time I spend online or how much time I spend talking about the nonexistence of a god. (However, by quoting me, you forced my hand to talk about it this time.)

QuoteIs it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

Read what you are typing! I didn't go to any website that discusses religion and tell them god doesn't exist. YOU came to an ATHEIST website. The sad thing is, you aren't even paying attention.

QuoteThere is something about God's existence that drives atheists over the edge. I know of more atheists that talk about God more than the average Christian believer.    

I don't believe this is true. I have a gut feeling you are not being truthful here. I'm certainly not over the edge and this is the most I've talked about god for a long time.

QuoteI'm writing a new book called, "Atheism; the obsession of God's existence."

Eh...good luck?

You claim to know the definition of an atheist, but clearly you haven't read or are choosing to ignore what the others in this group have told you in their posts. You chose my little post, just to show you are still here and still fighting, without having to come up with anything besides a gut feeling as a response.

Wow, Psalm.  I'd like for you to expound how atheism fails on every level, since that's a pretty big claim.  I'd also like for you to start believing in the Celestial Teapot since you can't 100% prove it isn't out there, and that means you cannot not believe in it, as per your words.  These aren't even arguments, you're right, they're false assertions.

And yeah, it's pathetically sad that we have to protest anything, or discuss religious absurdities with anyone, but the people in charge don't believe in UFO's, and even if they do, they don't make decisions based on them or pray to aliens, believing it will help them make a better choice.  Aliens don't interfere with legitimate science.  Were we living in Islamic nations, and were they to have freedom of speech, we'd be speaking against it instead.  It's not as though the concept of your God evokes a special wrath in comparison to anything else.  Indeed, the Muslims are acting out more, lately, but they aren't trying to get the Texas Board of Education to reject validated science, our leaders don't pray to Allah, one of their major denomination isn't pushing for the spread of AIDS in Africa, and so on.  But if one comes in here and tries to spread their belief, or makes poor arguments, you can watch us reply in exactly the same manner.  Indeed, if Muslims were pushing creationism is schools, we'd still write letters to the School Board, and if they were using their religion to legislate their morality, we'd be in opposition to that as well (to that extent, we greatly oppose the idiotic measures islamic nations are pushing for in the UN).  If people who believed they were talking to aliens when they closed their eyes and looked at the floor came in here, we'd address them as well.  Let's get that straight:  You came here.  We didn't hunt you down.  While your beliefs are dangerous (you believe that freedom of speech should be done away with?), we would have left you alone if you'd never opened your mouth.

The cry that we hate you and your ilk above all else is only valid to the point where you place yourselves in the government above all else, and believe yourselves to have moral authority.  Tell me, what is your ideal country?  Would they teach astronomy and evolution in schools?  Would sex even be mentioned?  Would there be any freedom of speech, or would children asking timidly how we could believe there really were any gods be dealt with harshly for merely speaking their minds?  Would scientists be able to research anything in regards to our origins, or discuss cosmology without the assumption of a god?  Would science only be able to publish findings if they didn't move in on your ancient book or they also offered up an apologetic explanation as the final "truth" of their research, a baseless assumption?  Does this sound like your ideal nation, so long as we all worship the God of the Bible?  Wager a guess at how long it would take for punishment to be dictated by the Bible.

The argument you're making to Wendy is what exactly?  That atheists are all crazy people for taking the time out to speak their minds on manners of faith, and that crazy people are proof of your god?  Is that what we're down to, everything else you've posted having been taken apart?

Quote from: "maestroanth"I don't think it's religion or atheism that's the problem.  It's just stupid people.  And my favorite saying, "You can't fix stupid".

I agree 100%!  

Hard to have a meaningful dialog with "stupid"...

As my wife says "stupid and stubborn is the worst combination"

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "maestroanth"I don't think it's religion or atheism that's the problem.  It's just stupid people.  And my favorite saying, "You can't fix stupid".

I agree 100%!  

Hard to have a meaningful dialog with "stupid"...

As my wife says "stupid and stubborn is the worst combination"

Usually I can get away with being one or the other, but I try to avoid a conglomeration.

Quote from: "Psalm23"If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

The second UFO believers gain control of government and start making laws we're all forced to follow, I can guarantee you'd be right there with us complaining about their infringement upon our rights.  The second they were allowed to teach in school that UFO's are 100% real you'd be picketing.  The second one of them beat the crap out of you or one of your kids for not believing in UFO's you'd be launching a campaign against them.  The second you were surrounded by UFO freaks running the country you'd seek out other people who didn't believe in UFO's to commiserate with once you lost your job for not believing in UFO's or got a death threat for not believing in UFO's.  The second UFO believers went door-to-door evangelizing and screamed threats at you from street corners - you'd complain.  The second they started picketing funerals with signs saying "Aliens Love Dead Soldiers" and "Aliens Hate Heterosexuals" or "Aliens Hate America" Christians would be in a tizzy.  Once they started bombing dentist offices because "aliens believe dentistry is an abomination", Christians would be talking about it, you can be sure.  The first time they beat someone to death for having sex with a person whose name ends with the same letter as their own - which UFO believers believe is an abomination - you'd complain.  

So you think that we should just shut up - on our own website - because you feel Christians are completely entitled to control the world and do anything they want to any non-Christian and to Christians they disagree with?  Is it because we complain when your people beat up gays and start a holy war in Iraq?

Besides which - you are visiting an atheist forum and screaming that you are persecuted because people wear t-shirts and disagree with you when you evangelize them.  Why are you so obsessed with atheists?

Quote from: "Psalm23"It's not an argument, it's the truth.

Atheism has failed on every possible level..

No human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof!

Modern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

There is something about God's existence that drives atheists over the edge. I know of more atheists that talk about God more than the average Christian believer.  

I'm writing a new book called, "Atheism; the obsession of God's existence."

You are just getting more combative and provacative and making less and less sense (if that's possible).

Yes, human beings can and do say they don't believe in god(s), it's happening right now.

When you aren't here we are talking about other things, god only comes up when people like you start determining what people can think.

I don't know why anyone is even bothering to respond to you anymore.  You have no argument, you are trying to bully what people can think, and attempting to provoke people into getting upset so you can get your kicks.  I'm sorry, you can say whatever you want about atheists and write your book, who cares, it's not like we believe anything you guys write anyway...obviously.

Argghhh, please stop encouraging him people.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fnicepost.gif&hash=62a17f92f6350fea01fbf66cbc409b9517c2e646) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=3062)

Quote from: "Psalm23"Wendy,

It's not an argument, it's the truth.

Wrong. It's an argument, and a really bad one at that.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheism has failed on every possible level..

Too stupid of a statement to even respond to.

Quote from: "Psalm23"No human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof!

I can: There is no god, and I don't believe in god although I do not have 100% proof. There, I said it. I guess I'm not human.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Modern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

What kind of ass-hat would come onto an atheist forum and try to tell everyone that their definition of atheism is wrong. Guess what buddy, your definition of christian is wrong.
Oh, and I searched out this forum because I was tired of religutards flooding every other forum on the internet with their stupid message.

Quote from: "Psalm23"If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

Although, since you believe in something ridiculous, you feel the need to spread that ridiculous message to everyone else even at the risk of making an ass of yourself in the process. Guess what, if you leave, we stop talking about your stupid message until the next messenger or psalm23 shows up to make the same stupid arguments.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

Yes, it's normal. I don't read UFO forums, but I will sit back and watch a show about the paranormal and aliens. I will also discuss it with others if they want. If they want to tell me why they think UFOs exist, I will tell them why they do not.  This does not mean I believe any of it, but I am allowed to find it interesting that there are people out there who are able to allow themselves to believe in things that have no proof whatsoever.

Quote from: "Psalm23"There is something about God's existence that drives atheists over the edge. I know of more atheists that talk about God more than the average Christian believer.

No there is not, because that would assume your god's existence. If you knew even the first thing about atheism, you would know that god not existing is the basis for it. And your statement about atheists talking about god more that the average christian believer isn't worth responding to.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I'm writing a new book called, "Atheism; the obsession of God's existence."

And I shall not read it. Nor, should I imagine, will anyone else.

Psalm, I feel you are trying to convince yourself more than anyone else here.....of your own beliefs....... :rant:  

Quote from: "Psalm23"Wendy,

It's not an argument, it's the truth.

Atheism has failed on every possible level..

You have patently ignored every post by an atheist in this thread.  I've got just a few questions... same ones many of us have asked and that you are managing to avoid, for the most part.

How has atheism failed?  How can a disbelief in something that's not proven to exist a fail?

Quote from: "Psalm23"No human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof!

And why is it that we can't say "there is no god" without any proof whatsoever of a NONexistence, but you can say "there IS as god, I can FEEL it" without impunity?  Further, one need not have proof to have a belief.  Hence, Christianity.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Modern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

I don't recall anyone here saying that going online to debate god's existence is the definition of atheism.  Let's cover it again.

ATHEISM
A = away from, without
THEISM = belief in god(s)

Therefore, atheism is merely being without a belief in god.  Period.  Not a religion.  Not an occupation.  Not a way of navigating forums on the net.

Quote from: "Psalm23"If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

You WOULD waste your time talking about it and debating it IF that thing you didn't believe existed is making an impact on your life.  Laws passed based on the bible, people flying planes into buildings or blowing up clinics, forced to say the name of the fictional being when pledging allegiance to your country, and seeing the name of the fictional being on your money.  I cannot ESCAPE religion, god or his followers, 24 / 7, ALL YEAR LONG.  Can you say that about Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or heck, Harry Potter?  What if those Muslims you're having such a grand time complaining about DO succeed in taking over our country and you're forced to use money with "Allah" on it or saying "One nation, under Allah"?  Then I bet you'd have PLENTY to say about it, and not in a supportive way.

THAT'S why we discuss it... and it's NEVER boring, trust me.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

Again, I don't have to believe in something to have an opinion on it.  I do have opinions about UFOs and aliens, and would GLADLY visit forums that discuss them to have my say if the spirit moved me ;-)   But again, even though I don't believe it, religion and god have a GREAT impact on my life, even though I do not believe god exists and I believe religion is a damaging prospect at best.

Quote from: "Psalm23"There is something about God's existence that drives atheists over the edge. I know of more atheists that talk about God more than the average Christian believer.  

Maybe that's because you're hanging out here, with people who come here to share their frustration about the overwhelming religiosity in this theocratic nation of ours?  Just a guess.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I'm writing a new book called, "Atheism; the obsession of God's existence."

More power to you.  Just another rag I won't bother reading.

F

F

Quote from: "Psalm23"It's not an argument, it's the truth.

For your sake I hope you're writing these posts from Bellevue.

QuoteAtheism has failed on every possible level..

That's the first time I've ever heard a Christian call their God a failure.

QuoteNo human being can say, "There is no God" or "I don't believe in God" without having 100% proof!

It's called common sense, which isn't too common. You don't have to know for 100% that Zeus isn't real to not believe in him.

QuoteModern day atheists take it one step further!
They like to go online and protest against religion and God. I'm sorry to inform you, but that's not the definition of atheism.

If I didn't believe in something.. I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online talking about it. That seems boring if you ask me.

Is it normal to discuss things you don't believe in? Do you visit website forums that discuss aliens and UFO's and tell them UFO's and aliens do not exist?

Anyone else notice the irony? This person is writing in an atheist forum! Ha!

Religious people are slightly more common than ET believers and far more absurd....

It's normal to discuss things your interested in. The brainwashing, the insanity, the copious followers the bigotry behavior by those such as yourself it's all very fascinating. By the way, we are not all the atheists in the world. For every one of us on this forum there's a handful of atheists who aren't discussing religion online. HOWEVER I would say this is primarily a place for atheists to hideout from religion and vent about its flaws. Most of the world is religous or at leat theistic so  if the topic is on our minds a lot it's because it's on your mind a lot, and we constantly have to tolerate people like you  :D

Quote from: "maestroanth"You WOULD waste your time talking about it and debating it IF that thing you didn't believe existed is making an impact on your life.  Laws passed based on the bible, people flying planes into buildings or blowing up clinics, forced to say the name of the fictional being when pledging allegiance to your country, and seeing the name of the fictional being on your money.  I cannot ESCAPE religion, god or his followers, 24 / 7, ALL YEAR LONG.

America is "One Nation under God," and America believes in the motto, "In God We Trust." There are roughly 225 million Christians in America. We are the majority. Like I have said previously.. Would you visit Iran or Pakistan and tell them to STOP saying, "One nation under Allah?" I highly doubt you would say anything about it. They would cut off your head!

QuoteCan you say that about Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or heck, Harry Potter?  What if those Muslims you're having such a grand time complaining about DO succeed in taking over our country and you're forced to use money with "Allah" on it or saying "One nation, under Allah"?  Then I bet you'd have PLENTY to say about it, and not in a supportive way.

America is not an Islamic nation. We are not supposed to have "One nation under Allah" on American currency! I think the U.S Congress and Senate are planning on placing "In Christ we Trust" on American currency.. atheists will really flip out then!!

Secondly, I'm sure you celebrate Christmas and Easter, too, right? Two holidays that are deep in religious tradition, but atheists claim they can celebrate them, too! lol. Atheists want nothing to do with religion,, only when it comes to receiving gifts and money. Christmas means, "Mass for Christ."

QuoteI think it's boring.....................I read delusion of god, dawkins picks the easy battles.  Honestly, wisdom comes deeper then clever word tricks imo.  (FSM doesn't cut deep spirituality......)

Richard Dawkins wrote a book called; "The God Delusion," but he goes on the O'Reilly Factor on the FOX News channel and Mr. Dawkins openly admitted to Bill O'Reilly that he could NOT prove Jesus Christ wasn't God. So, in reality who is deluded? Of course it's easy to claim a belief is a delusion, but proving it would be a huge benefit.. but Dawkins cannot provide a single shred of evidence.

Richard Dawkins is just another clueless robot working under the wings of Satan.

Who would have thought 3,000 years that in 2009 atheism would be preaching against God, rather than simply just NOT beleiving?

I'm an atheist when it comes to gods like Thor, Allah, Zeus, Mithras, but you don't see me joining their websites and talking about their gods.

I guess I'm the only true atheist in here.  

Quote from: "Psalm23"Who would have thought 3,000 years that in 2009 atheism would be preaching against God, rather than simply just NOT beleiving?

I'm an atheist when it comes to gods like Thor, Allah, Zeus, Mithras, but you don't see me joining their websites and talking about their gods.

I guess I'm the only true atheist in here.  

THIS is what I don't understand. YOU joined an atheist website. I have not joined a christian website to talk about their god. YOU came here to preach, we did not go to you.


I just wonder what your purpose is? Are you here to "show us the light?" What do you want?

Quote from: "Psalm23"America is "One Nation under God," and America believes in the motto, "In God We Trust." There are roughly 225 million Christians in America. We are the majority. Like I have said previously.. Would you visit Iran or Pakistan and tell them to STOP saying, "One nation under Allah?" I highly doubt you would say anything about it. They would cut off your head!

America became "One Nation under God" in the 50s when people were scared of Communism and altered the pledge of allegiance. It was a reaction to fear (unjustified fear, at that).

Have you ever heard the term "tyranny of the majority"? You need to get over that whole there-are-more-of-us-so-it's-our-country shtick. The entire premise of this country, the notion the whole thing is based on, is e pluribus unum: out of many, one.

QuoteAmerica is not an Islamic nation. We are not supposed to have "One nation under Allah" on American currency! I think the U.S Congress and Senate are planning on placing "In Christ we Trust" on American currency.. atheists will really flip out then!!

I"m assuming you're referencing this website (http://www.nimcrown.org/dc.htm), and I can find no other legitimate suggestions (granted, through a quick Google search, but still) that this is true. It's one of those Soldiers for Christ kind of sites that is deeply, deeply disturbing.

QuoteSecondly, I'm sure you celebrate Christmas and Easter, too, right? Two holidays that are deep in religious tradition, but atheists claim they can celebrate them, too! lol. Atheists want nothing to do with religion,, only when it comes to receiving gifts and money. Christmas means, "Mass for Christ."

Two holidays that were basically stolen and converted from older Pagan religions. Do your research.

QuoteRichard Dawkins wrote a book called; "The God Delusion," but he goes on the O'Reilly Factor on the FOX News channel and Mr. Dawkins openly admitted to Bill O'Reilly that he could NOT prove Jesus Christ wasn't God. So, in reality who is deluded? Of course it's easy to claim a belief is a delusion, but proving it would be a huge benefit.. but Dawkins cannot provide a single shred of evidence.

Richard Dawkins is just another clueless robot working under the wings of Satan.

Who would have thought 3,000 years that in 2009 atheism would be preaching against God, rather than simply just NOT beleiving?

I'm an atheist when it comes to gods like Thor, Allah, Zeus, Mithras, but you don't see me joining their websites and talking about their gods.

I guess I'm the only true atheist in here.  :| Ugh, give me strength.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"America became "One Nation under God" in the 50s when people were scared of Communism and altered the pledge of allegiance. It was a reaction to fear (unjustified fear, at that).

America will always be "One nation under God." No atheist or skeptic will ever change that. They have tried, but failed miserably. I cannot imagine an atheist challenging a panel of Federal and Supreme Court Judges who are primarily Christian/Catholic. Remember that one atheist from California who tried to have that Federal Judge remove the 10 Commandments from his Courtroom? lol!!  :| Ugh, give me strength.[/quote] Yes, anyone who supports placing advertisements on buses that read, 'God is imaginary, enjoy your life!!!" are working for Satan. It's funny, I don't see a "Thor is imaginary, enjoy your life!" or how about "Mithra is imaginary, move on with your life?"

And by the way.. Bill O'Reilly made Richard Dawkins look like a complete and utter nut-bag! Trust me, I know Bill O'Reilly, and he would not invite a guest if he knows he cannot win! I loved the look on Dawkins' face when O'Reilly said, "You cannot prove to me Jesus Christ wasn't God, can you?" Dawkins' reply was short and sweet.. 'No I can't."

Enough said..

I think someone would have to have 100% solid concrete evidence before they would write a book entitled, "God is a delusion".

I would listen to someone like Dawkins if he said, "Yes I have proof God is a delusion, and I'll explain..."

but he doesn't do that.. he openly admitted to O'Reilly that he cannot disprove God. lol. So much for the delusion part.

You know, I just typed a page-long response in rebuttal to your tunnel vision of a worldview, but then I deleted it. Because it's pointless.

It's obvious who has the delusion.

Quote from: "Wendy"It's the truth to you, doesn't make it fact.

Wendy, Christianity has been proven throughout the ages.

QuoteI really don't understand what you mean here. I don't really see what 'fail' or 'succeed' has to do with atheism?

Atheism means "The denial of God or gods". My point is short and sweet.. no one can fully deny God without knowing for sure.

QuoteOnce again, no human being can say, "There is a god" without having 100% proof. Your gut is not proof.

I have love and compassion for God. I can feel the Love that radiates from God. That is my proof! Do imaginary beings spread love and compassion?

QuoteAs far as I know, I have the freedom, just as you do, to go online, meet people like me and discuss the issues of my day. If you had looked around you can see this website is much more than just talking about atheism. I've only been a member for a few days, but the only time this discussion has come up is when a christian has come in seemingly trying to convince the members they are wrong.  I'm not protesting anything--you are the one here protesting.

I agree with you!! You have the Freedom to express your feelings and thoughts towards religion, but when atheists narrow down their anger and hostility towards one certain religion. I cannot help to think that these individuals are just disgruntled and angry.

QuoteIf I believed in something, I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online trying to convince people who didn't. You don't know what I do, or how much time I spend online or how much time I spend talking about the nonexistence of a god. (However, by quoting me, you forced my hand to talk about it this time.)

No, but you disbelieve in something, and you come here and try to confuse and question weak Christians that don't know the "head game" many atheists like to play. That doesn't work with me. If an atheist links me to "skeptics annotated bible.." I just lead them to the website "the response to skeptics annotate bible." Remember Wendy, to every error there is an answer. Atheist based websites expose the errors, but they never post the answers. Why is that?

QuoteRead what you are typing! I didn't go to any website that discusses religion and tell them god doesn't exist. YOU came to an ATHEIST website. The sad thing is, you aren't even paying attention.

This is a classic example of the Pot calling the Kettle black!! You are an atheist that enjoys clicking the "Religion" tab in an atheist website! I thought atheists wanted religious-free lives? but yet, they want to discuss it on a 24 hour schedule? Something isn't making sense!!

QuoteI don't believe this is true. I have a gut feeling you are not being truthful here. I'm certainly not over the edge and this is the most I've talked about god for a long time.

My research has proved you wrong. Every atheist website, forum, bulletin board, chat room I've ever encountered has a "Religion" or "Christianity" section.

QuoteEh...good luck?

I will send you an autographed copy if you wish?

QuoteYou claim to know the definition of an atheist, but clearly you haven't read or are choosing to ignore what the others in this group have told you in their posts.

No! It's you atheists that leads me to believe atheists despise Christianity!

QuoteYou chose my little post, just to show you are still here and still fighting, without having to come up with anything besides a gut feeling as a response.

I wouldn't call it "fighting," but I'm here debating.. and trying to understand why the average atheist has such a burning hatred for God.

Quote from: "Psalm"No! It's you atheists that leads me to believe atheists despise Christianity!

I like your Christ. It's your Christians I'm not crazy about.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"You know, I just typed a page-long response in rebuttal to your tunnel vision of a worldview, but then I deleted it. Because it's pointless.

I really think that is best. Some times people are just too emotionally invested to be amenable to reason or evidence.

Quote from: "Psalm23"I wouldn't call it "fighting," but I'm here debating.. and trying to understand why the average atheist has such a burning hatred for God.

This, I will address.

A common misconception about atheists. Atheists don't have any sort of "hatred for God" any more than we have a "hatred" for Darth Vader. We think he's a shitty, rather two-dimensional fictional character who has, unfortunately, become the justification for many, many terrible things (and, to be fair, not a few charitable and good things, too).

Maybe instead of arguing with atheists (this is not a debate, I assure you; it's an argument that you're perpetuating) you should just listen to them. Really hear what they're saying, instead of spending that time just thinking about what you're going to say next.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"I really think that is best. Some times people are just too emotionally invested to be amenable to reason or evidence.

Yeah, we get that. A lot. A lot a lot. Like, a lot lot lot.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Even if it was.. atheists should NOT celebrate any religious festivals. Even if these same atheists claim "Christmas was stolen by ancient Pagan rituals."

I find this line of argumentation fallacious in the sense that you have narrowed this an aspect of human behavior down to one item - affiliation of celebrations.  This assumes that atheists who lack belief in god(s) (as opposed to your silly repeated claim of 'denial' which implies substantiation of existence of deities) should not participate in a celebration affiliated with past or present any sort of religion what so ever because to do so would be and affirmation that the lack of belief is incorrect.  This is, in all honesty, stupid.

Why do most atheists carry on with celebrations during holidays such as Xmas?  The same reason most other people do - religious or not:

* People like time off from work and spending it with friends and family
* People like to eat and celebrate no matter the supposed foundation of the holiday
* People like to get gifts and give gifts to loved ones

Do Christians celebrate Halloween because they are affirming that their views are wrong and that they assuredly must see how ancient pagan religions are actually true? No.  People like to dress up, party and kids love to get free candy.  The same with all these other holidays which may have a basis in one way or another to religion of some sort but that has become a by-line in the modern world especially in Western society.  This is what Xmas has become for many people:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fneurognosis.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F12%2F12-24-08_1652.jpg%3Fw%3D497%26amp%3Bh%3D372&hash=78887b599fa379d6da359eb6d8161b5900334297)

Your argument would mean that because I listen to Stryper occasionally that I am undermining my lack of belief (I think we probably must also explain the difference between agnostic and gnostic atheism to you) and basically "admitting" my position is wrong.  No, I just happen to like their music.  You can't take something as complex as human behavior as it pertains to interaction with society and reduce it down to these odd criteria you've proposed for how people "should" behave or what they "should" and "shouldn't" celebrate - you've thrown out all details in favor of your narrowed view and this is the antithesis of productive thinking.

Well, you just lost any iota of anything from me.....O'Reilly....You bring him up?....What an asshole and does embody much I hate in this country..... He makes me ashamed of the Irish that is in me....I get your type now. Don't want it around me....Thanx.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Wendy"It's the truth to you, doesn't make it fact.

Wendy, Christianity has been proven throughout the ages.

QuoteI really don't understand what you mean here. I don't really see what 'fail' or 'succeed' has to do with atheism?

Atheism means "The denial of God or gods". My point is short and sweet.. no one can fully deny God without knowing for sure.

QuoteOnce again, no human being can say, "There is a god" without having 100% proof. Your gut is not proof.

I have love and compassion for God. I can feel the Love that radiates from God. That is my proof! Do imaginary beings spread love and compassion?

QuoteAs far as I know, I have the freedom, just as you do, to go online, meet people like me and discuss the issues of my day. If you had looked around you can see this website is much more than just talking about atheism. I've only been a member for a few days, but the only time this discussion has come up is when a christian has come in seemingly trying to convince the members they are wrong.  I'm not protesting anything--you are the one here protesting.

I agree with you!! You have the Freedom to express your feelings and thoughts towards religion, but when atheists narrow down their anger and hostility towards one certain religion. I cannot help to think that these individuals are just disgruntled and angry.

QuoteIf I believed in something, I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online trying to convince people who didn't. You don't know what I do, or how much time I spend online or how much time I spend talking about the nonexistence of a god. (However, by quoting me, you forced my hand to talk about it this time.)

No, but you disbelieve in something, and you come here and try to confuse and question weak Christians that don't know the "head game" many atheists like to play. That doesn't work with me. If an atheist links me to "skeptics annotated bible.." I just lead them to the website "the response to skeptics annotate bible." Remember Wendy, to every error there is an answer. Atheist based websites expose the errors, but they never post the answers. Why is that?

QuoteRead what you are typing! I didn't go to any website that discusses religion and tell them god doesn't exist. YOU came to an ATHEIST website. The sad thing is, you aren't even paying attention.

This is a classic example of the Pot calling the Kettle black!! You are an atheist that enjoys clicking the "Religion" tab in an atheist website! I thought atheists wanted religious-free lives? but yet, they want to discuss it on a 24 hour schedule? Something isn't making sense!!

QuoteI don't believe this is true. I have a gut feeling you are not being truthful here. I'm certainly not over the edge and this is the most I've talked about god for a long time.

My research has proved you wrong. Every atheist website, forum, bulletin board, chat room I've ever encountered has a "Religion" or "Christianity" section.

QuoteEh...good luck?

I will send you an autographed copy if you wish?

QuoteYou claim to know the definition of an atheist, but clearly you haven't read or are choosing to ignore what the others in this group have told you in their posts.

No! It's you atheists that leads me to believe atheists despise Christianity!

QuoteYou chose my little post, just to show you are still here and still fighting, without having to come up with anything besides a gut feeling as a response.

I wouldn't call it "fighting," but I'm here debating.. and trying to understand why the average atheist has such a burning hatred for God.

I see where you are coming from.  

Yup, I think we all see where Psalm is coming from.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"A common misconception about atheists. Atheists don't have any sort of "hatred for God" any more than we have a "hatred" for Darth Vader. We think he's a shitty, rather two-dimensional fictional character who has, unfortunately, become the justification for many, many terrible things (and, to be fair, not a few charitable and good things, too)
.

How dare you, Darth Vader was a master-piece of 20th century cinematography! Where I'm from, unbelievers like you are burn't at the stake!  

More on topic though, arguing in this thread is like wading through treacle, it takes ages to get anywhere and you feel dirty after.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"A common misconception about atheists. Atheists don't have any sort of "hatred for God"

Let me stop you right there. I can prove atheists hate God. During the Christmas Holiday in 2008. An atheist decided to display a HUGE poster next to a Nativity Scene in the Congress building that reads;

"There is no God, there are no Angels in Heaven, and there will be no Zombie coming back to life to save you in the end, move on with your ancient lives!!"

You don't call that hatred and hostility? I call that totally obscene and ignorant.

Gee, I wonder why stuff like this doesn't exist in the Islamic Republic? Geez, are atheists afraid to die for what they don't believe in?

Are atheists afraid to die for atheism?

I'm curious why atheists only express their opinions where the law protects them? Atheists are real quick to march to Washington, DC, but do you see atheists forming a protest against Islam for what happened on 9-11? Or do atheists only concentrate on the Christian Crusades that took place 1,200 years ago? I wonder why Richard Dawkins hasn't flown into Iran yet and tell them 'Allah is a delusion, move on with your life!" I guess he only promotes his book where the law protects him. I guess he is not that concerned about teaching the Islamic Radicals that their god is a delusion.  

The world knows Satan is a coward, and Dawkins is living proof!

What are you so afraid of?

Through a Christian eye, death is the beginning of life..

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm"No! It's you atheists that leads me to believe atheists despise Christianity!

I like your Christ. It's your Christians I'm not crazy about.

It's not atheism I hate, it's the followers that try to teach the world, "there is no God" when they don't know for sure themselves.. sheesh.. talk about the blind leading the blind!!

Quote from: "Wendy"I see where you are coming from.  

Wendy, I have debated with literally thousands of atheists and skeptics all across the Globe, and they all told me "I don't believe in God," but it's ironic because some where throughout the debate.. they would call God every thing but a white man. Now how can you say I don't believe in God but then turn around and slander his name 5 minutes later?

Satan that is described in the Holy Bible is not a joke, nor imaginary! He is real, and it's living proof that he has a choke hold on people (like those atheists) I have described above.

The Bible says "Satan will send the world a message in the end of days." I believe atheism is that message. Atheism is on the rise.. and the bible said this will happen in II Peter. "skeptics and scoffers of the bible shall increase right before the end of time." Its living proof that atheism is dominating as we speak. Jesus saith, "watch for these signs!"

Despite not think that atheism, in the strong sense of affirming the falsehood of theism, is rationally or evidentially justified -- as theism cannot actually be refuted -- I think that Sam Harris gave the best rebuttal to this criticism. He said: "Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma." Which I think sums up his position that it is of practical importance to take a contrary position to religion when it is used to justify questionable political and social policies.

It is an interesting stance to take.

Quote from: "Lilbeth"Well, you just lost any iota of anything from me.....O'Reilly....You bring him up?....What an asshole and does embody much I hate in this country..... He makes me ashamed of the Irish that is in me....I get your type now. Don't want it around me....Thanx.

O'Reilly would frickin crush you on his show. Email him and tell him you would like to debate the existence of God with him live on his show. he already made Dawkins look like a pansy.

How dare anyone write a book calling my God a delusion, but he cannot fully disprove him. blah! what a waste of money that book must be. sorry.

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Despite not think that atheism, in the strong sense of affirming the falsehood of theism, is rationally or evidentially justified -- as theism cannot actually be refuted -- I think that Sam Harris gave the best rebuttal to this criticism. He said: "Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma." Which I think sums up his position that it is of practical importance to take a contrary position to religion when it is used to justify questionable political and social policies.

It is an interesting stance to take.

atheism wants to live the life of sin and no one to answer to. they discard all holy laws and want nothing to do with God unless it's bashing his name on the internet, or calling his book an error.. that's when atheists are most happy.

The sick thing is.. I'm a Christian, and I would lend you my last 2 bucks. meanwhile you backstab by religion. tsk tsk!

Quote from: "Psalm23"Let me stop you right there. I can prove atheists hate God. During the Christmas Holiday in 2008. An atheist decided to display a HUGE poster next to a Nativity Scene in the Congress building that reads;

"There is no God, there are no Angels in Heaven, and there will be no Zombie coming back to life to save you in the end, move on with your ancient lives!!"

You don't call that hatred and hostility? I call that totally obscene and ignorant.

Let me stop you right there. I can prove christians hate fags. During the funerals of U.S. Military personnel, a group of christians have decided to have a HUGE display of people (including small children) holding signs with such colorful slogans as "god hates fags!"

You don't call that hatred and hostility? I call that totally obscene and ignorant.

And, I call you the same.

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheism wants to live the life of sin and no one to answer to. they discard all holy laws and want nothing to do with God unless it's bashing his name on the internet, or calling his book an error.. that's when atheists are most happy.

The sick thing is.. I'm a Christian, and I would lend you my last 2 bucks. meanwhile you backstab by religion. tsk tsk!

Well, I'm not an atheist, but I have a feeling that you would still have no qualms with telling me that me and my wife are living in sin, will be judged as dirty perverts someday, and thrown into everlasting torture. If this happens, then so be it, I'll go with no regrets.

I don't hate religion, or even think that it is bad. Nor would I ever deface some religious scene, or wear purposely inflammatory slogans, or disrupt a religious gathering. I do wish that this favor would be returned to me, but even though it is not, I will continue to behave in this way.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Hitsumei"Despite not think that atheism, in the strong sense of affirming the falsehood of theism, is rationally or evidentially justified -- as theism cannot actually be refuted -- I think that Sam Harris gave the best rebuttal to this criticism. He said: "Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma." Which I think sums up his position that it is of practical importance to take a contrary position to religion when it is used to justify questionable political and social policies.

It is an interesting stance to take.

atheism wants to live the life of sin and no one to answer to. they discard all holy laws and want nothing to do with God unless it's bashing his name on the internet, or calling his book an error.. that's when atheists are most happy.

The sick thing is.. I'm a Christian, and I would lend you my last 2 bucks. meanwhile you backstab by religion. tsk tsk!

You would lend us your last two bucks and see our freedom of speech razed.  You come here and state blatant falsehoods, even after they have been debunked for the benefit of your understanding.  Every atheist is accountable to society, and many I daresay live more like Christ than your Christians.  We help people out of compassion, not to score brownie points with God.  We don't even need to know God wills it.  We aren't proud enough to think a creator of the cosmos has any want of a personal relationship with us.  What of your "holy laws" we do uphold, we do because we find them genuinely meritorious, not because we believe they ought to be without further thought.

You would lend me your last two dollars only because it is two dollars.  Give away all that you own in my sight and we'll talk about your supernatural Christian philanthropy.

You won't be happy here.  When you leave from this forum, we will not follow.  Get out.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Lilbeth"Well, you just lost any iota of anything from me.....O'Reilly....You bring him up?....What an asshole and does embody much I hate in this country..... He makes me ashamed of the Irish that is in me....I get your type now. Don't want it around me....Thanx.

O'Reilly would frickin crush you on his show. Email him and tell him you would like to debate the existence of God with him live on his show. he already made Dawkins look like a pansy.

How dare anyone write a book calling my God a delusion, but he cannot fully disprove him. blah! what a waste of money that book must be. sorry.

Dawkins, obviously, wasn't debating him with smart assism......I do wonder why Dawkins agreed to be on that show, though.....  I guess for the same reason we still all discuss with you....No, I cannot prove the lack of a god....nor can I prove the lack of the ghost, my neighbor said visited her, the other day.....or the fact that faeries do not exist, even though I know someone who thinks they do.....really....DUH! I would not want to be in the same room with O'Reilly, let alone debate him about anything. Thank you....but no thanks.......
So death is the beginning for you? What are you waiting for then? Not being mean to you....just a question I wonder about....since so many religous people think it is going to be so much better after death.....and why cry if someone dies....aren't they going to a better place....shouldn't ones left behind rejoice? I am done with you, though......I agree with someone else's statement....just go away.....I had some kernal of respect for you before taking this all on here....but not any more.

QuoteIt's not atheism I hate, it's the followers that try to teach the world, "there is no God" when they don't know for sure themselves.. sheesh.. talk about the blind leading the blind!!

Wowzah, I never said I hated you. Love can't co-exist with hate, so your friend Jebus ain't doin' too great of a job with you.

I know a person that gets on everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves.......  seriously, you're a troll right?

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteIt's not atheism I hate, it's the followers that try to teach the world, "there is no God" when they don't know for sure themselves.. sheesh.. talk about the blind leading the blind!!

Wowzah, I never said I hated you. Love can't co-exist with hate, so your friend Jebus ain't doin' too great of a job with you.

I know a person that gets on everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves.......  seriously, you're a troll right?

Of course he's no troll. He's debated with "thousands" of atheists around the globe.  

Can't you tell by the stunning arguments?

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteIt's not atheism I hate, it's the followers that try to teach the world, "there is no God" when they don't know for sure themselves.. sheesh.. talk about the blind leading the blind!!

Wowzah, I never said I hated you. Love can't co-exist with hate, so your friend Jebus ain't doin' too great of a job with you.

I know a person that gets on everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves, everybodys' nerves.......  seriously, you're a troll right?

Of course he's no troll. He's debated with "thousands" of atheists around the globe.  :blush:

At any rate, I suppose once Psalm becomes a bore we'll actually apply Curio's "How to Treat a Troll" rules? Ha ha.

I do feel guilty for feeding the troll, but he's fairly convincing.  Pretty good Poe's Law.

Hitsumei, that is such an adorable avatar!

I always find it funny when fundies come here fully expexting that they will "save our souls" and make reasonable arguments. Then when they fail misrable becase they find we aren't as gulible, and they really don't know atheists at all so have no way to debate effective with us the allways fall back on anger, ignorance, and martrdom ie;

Quote from: "Psalm23"atheism wants to live the life of sin and no one to answer to. they discard all holy laws and want nothing to do with God unless it's bashing his name on the internet, or calling his book an error.. that's when atheists are most happy.

The sick thing is.. I'm a Christian, and I would lend you my last 2 bucks. meanwhile you backstab by religion. tsk tsk!

Poor little martr we feel so bad for you and your self rightiousness and obvious persecution. If I was you I'd take may ball and go home. But seriously GO HOME.

Jesus said in the NT "Love thy enemy" and all Christians truly believe that God + Jesus = Love. Reading the posts of Psalm23, I can only sense a lot of anger, hate and bigotry; not love. It Jesus taught his followers love and Psalm23 brings us hate instead, then the only logical conclusion is that Psalm23 is not a real Christian, but a follower of the Antichrist or Satan .

Quote from: "Psalm23"O'Reilly would frickin crush you on his show. Email him and tell him you would like to debate the existence of God with him live on his show. he already made Dawkins look like a pansy.

How dare anyone write a book calling my God a delusion, but he cannot fully disprove him. blah! what a waste of money that book must be. sorry.

Link please, because Dawkins said he doesn’t give religious nutcases legitimacy by debating with them, so I can’t imagine him doing a live debate on religion with anyone.

And ‘your’ god? Bit possessive, what?

EDIT: Watched it on youtube. Do you mean this interview? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ&fmt=18)

Are we seriously watching the same thing there? O’Reilly made him look like a pansy? I don’t think so! Once Dawkins got into his flow O’Reilly repeatedly interrupted him, talking over him, gave ridiculous ‘arguments’, and when faced with a question he couldn’t answer simply made a joke of it! What a schmuck that O’Reilly is. I’d debate him live for a tenner.

Quote from: "Kodanshi"

Quote from: "Psalm23"O'Reilly would frickin crush you on his show. Email him and tell him you would like to debate the existence of God with him live on his show. he already made Dawkins look like a pansy.

How dare anyone write a book calling my God a delusion, but he cannot fully disprove him. blah! what a waste of money that book must be. sorry.

Link please, because Dawkins said he doesn’t give religious nutcases legitimacy by debating with them, so I can’t imagine him doing a live debate on religion with anyone.

And ‘your’ god? Bit possessive, what?

EDIT: Watched it on youtube. Do you mean this interview? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ&fmt=18)

Are we seriously watching the same thing there? O’Reilly made him look like a pansy? I don’t think so! Once Dawkins got into his flow O’Reilly repeatedly interrupted him, talking over him, gave ridiculous ‘arguments’, and when faced with a question he couldn’t answer simply made a joke of it! What a schmuck that O’Reilly is. I’d debate him live for a tenner.

O'Reilly actually looked scared of Dawkins.

Psalm23 wrote:
O'Reilly would frickin crush you on his show. Email him and tell him you would like to debate the existence of God with him live on his show. he already made Dawkins look like a pansy.


It was this statement , alone, that lost me, Psalm....Sounds like something you would wish him to do....sounds like YOU are the one coming from  a place of hatred.....just had to say that one more thing.

My turn!

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Wendy"It's the truth to you, doesn't make it fact.

Wendy, Christianity has been proven throughout the ages.

Give me one example that I can't prove with a google search and some logic.

Quote

QuoteI really don't understand what you mean here. I don't really see what 'fail' or 'succeed' has to do with atheism?

Atheism means "The denial of God or gods". My point is short and sweet.. no one can fully deny God without knowing for sure.

It means "No god", dumbass. Just bacause He can't be proven doesn't make him any more real than Zeus, or Pluto. (Guess where I got that)

Quote

QuoteOnce again, no human being can say, "There is a god" without having 100% proof. Your gut is not proof.

I have love and compassion for God. I can feel the Love that radiates from God. That is my proof! Do imaginary beings spread love and compassion?

I had an imaginary friend called max once. He helped me through hard times of bullying.

Quote

QuoteAs far as I know, I have the freedom, just as you do, to go online, meet people like me and discuss the issues of my day. If you had looked around you can see this website is much more than just talking about atheism. I've only been a member for a few days, but the only time this discussion has come up is when a christian has come in seemingly trying to convince the members they are wrong.  I'm not protesting anything--you are the one here protesting.

I agree with you!! You have the Freedom to express your feelings and thoughts towards religion, but when atheists narrow down their anger and hostility towards one certain religion. I cannot help to think that these individuals are just disgruntled and angry.

You're the one attacking us by saying we're wrong.

Quote

QuoteIf I believed in something, I'd be damned if I would waste my life away online trying to convince people who didn't. You don't know what I do, or how much time I spend online or how much time I spend talking about the nonexistence of a god. (However, by quoting me, you forced my hand to talk about it this time.)

No, but you disbelieve in something, and you come here and try to confuse and question weak Christians that don't know the "head game" many atheists like to play. That doesn't work with me. If an atheist links me to "skeptics annotated bible.." I just lead them to the website "the response to skeptics annotate bible." Remember Wendy, to every error there is an answer. Atheist based websites expose the errors, but they never post the answers. Why is that?

because there are no awnsers. The testament of jesus is a historical (and a horrid one at that.) account of a preist who died at the hands of the Romans.

Quote

QuoteRead what you are typing! I didn't go to any website that discusses religion and tell them god doesn't exist. YOU came to an ATHEIST website. The sad thing is, you aren't even paying attention.

This is a classic example of the Pot calling the Kettle black!! You are an atheist that enjoys clicking the "Religion" tab in an atheist website! I thought atheists wanted religious-free lives? but yet, they want to discuss it on a 24 hour schedule? Something isn't making sense!!

In america, Religion is forced on The minority 24/7. Of course you will dicuss the thing ruining your life. Why don't the Autistics stop talking about NTs?

Quote

QuoteI don't believe this is true. I have a gut feeling you are not being truthful here. I'm certainly not over the edge and this is the most I've talked about god for a long time.

My research has proved you wrong. Every atheist website, forum, bulletin board, chat room I've ever encountered has a "Religion" or "Christianity" section.

Just bacause they have one, doesn't mean it is used often.

Quote

QuoteYou claim to know the definition of an atheist, but clearly you haven't read or are choosing to ignore what the others in this group have told you in their posts.

No! It's you atheists that leads me to believe atheists despise Christianity!

Of couse we hate you Black lynching, Jew killing, Gay beating.......

Quote

QuoteYou chose my little post, just to show you are still here and still fighting, without having to come up with anything besides a gut feeling as a response.

I wouldn't call it "fighting," but I'm here debating.. and trying to understand why the average atheist has such a burning hatred for God.

When something has such a burning hatered for everything else you kinda get angry at it.

Psalm has been asked to stop stereotyping atheists and to approach us like any other human being.  If Psalm complies, I am asking that everyone else also takes care to approach Psalm in a civil manner.  If Psalm doesn't comply, further steps will be taken.
-Whitney

Quote from: "karadan"O'Reilly actually looked scared of Dawkins.

Trust me, Bill O'Reilly intimidates everyone who he disagrees with on his program. O'Reilly asked Dawkins a question that should be easy to answer, right?

So, why didn't Dawkins prove his case? All I heard was, "I cannot prove Jesus Christ wasn't God." It sounds like someone is unsure of himself?

Gee, some atheist.. he can't even disprove Christianity for pete sakes! lol.

Oh yeah, this is coming from the same guy who claims; "God is a delusion".  

Let's get one thing straight. Richard Dawkins is a Biologist, not a Psychiatrist!

You guys should read the book called, "The Dawkins Delusion" authored by a real psychiatrist.

Quote from: "Whitney"Psalm has been asked to stop stereotyping atheists and to approach us like any other human being.  If Psalm complies, I am asking that everyone else also takes care to approach Psalm in a civil manner.  If Psalm doesn't comply, further steps will be taken.
-Whitney

Dear Moderator, atheists do NOT stereotype Christians??

Do you know how many times I have been accused of being a baby killer because I believe in the O.T?

Atheists claim "Hitler was a Christian" so I guess that means all Christians are evil people out to exterminate the Jews!!
Atheists claim "Christians come to my front door" so I must hate all Christians!!
Atheists claim "Christians always scream out, the end is near!!" so I must hate all Christians!!
Atheists claim "George W. Bush is a Christian" so that means all Christians are stupid people!  

Atheists aren't exactly innocent.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Dear Moderator, atheists do NOT stereotype Christians??

Do you know how many times I have been accused of being a baby killer because I believe in the O.T?

On this site? Never. If you have, then please post a link, otherwise, your point is moot.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists claim "Hitler was a Christian" so I guess that means all Christians are evil people out to exterminate the Jews!!

No they don't. Again, find me somewhere on this site where someone has said that and post the link. Oh, and that was a blatant stereotype...

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists claim "Christians come to my front door" so I must hate all Christians!!

No they don't. Again, find me somewhere on this site where someone has said that and post the link. Stereotype number 2...

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists claim "Christians always scream out, the end is near!!" so I must hate all Christians!!

Guess what? Stereotype number 3! You're doing well so far... Oh, and please post a link to where someone said that on this site.

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists claim "George W. Bush is a Christian" so that means all Christians are stupid people!  :crazy:  :brick:

Quote from: "Psalm23"Atheists aren't exactly innocent.

At what, exactly?

Quote from: "karadan"On this site? Never. If you have, then please post a link, otherwise, your point is moot.

Not on this site, and the point is not moot because there are millions of atheists who hate Christians just for being Christian.

Quote from: "Psalm23"No they don't. Again, find me somewhere on this site where someone has said that and post the link. Oh, and that was a blatant stereotype...

I can pull up atheist based websites that blatantly stereotype Christians. Shall I dare?

QuoteNo they don't. Again, find me somewhere on this site where someone has said that and post the link. Stereotype number 2...

Please see my last comment..

QuoteDidn't George Bush say on many occasions he was a christian? Why would atheists have to claim that if he has already admitted that fact? Most christians may be deluded but not all of them are stupid. Oh, and that was stereotype number 4. It seems as though we say something and you read something else entirely. Willful ignorance seems to be a common trait amongst religious fundamentalists. It is a rather remarkable talent for self-deception.

I've encountered hundreds of atheists who say they voted for George W. Bush, but then they say he is a stupid Christian.. who is the deluded one?
   

QuoteAt what, exactly?

Sterotyping religious people.

You mean to tell me you have never ran across an atheist who judges all Christians because of the Crusades, or Eric Rudolph bombing an abortion clinic? Show me the verse where Jesus said, "do bodily harm to those who support abortion?" I dare you!

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "karadan"O'Reilly actually looked scared of Dawkins.

Trust me, Bill O'Reilly intimidates everyone who he disagrees with on his program. O'Reilly asked Dawkins a question that should be easy to answer, right?

So, why didn't Dawkins prove his case? All I heard was, "I cannot prove Jesus Christ wasn't God." It sounds like someone is unsure of himself?

Gee, some atheist.. he can't even disprove Christianity for pete sakes! lol.

Oh yeah, this is coming from the same guy who claims; "God is a delusion".  

Let's get one thing straight. Richard Dawkins is a Biologist, not a Psychiatrist!

You guys should read the book called, "The Dawkins Delusion" authored by a real psychiatrist.

O'Reilly would get a straight answer if he let Dawkins talk. Unfortunately every time O'reilly projects a question from his pie-hole he gives Dawkins approx 3 seconds to answer before interruptng him. Like you, he isn't actually interested in what Dawkins has to say due to the love of his own voice and rampant self-obsession. As someone said earlier in this thread, you seem to have watched a different clip seeing as you seem to get something entirely different from it. Goes to show how much delusion can warp the perceptive abilities.

Read the God Delusion before spouting such nonsense. In that book, Dawkins does a pretty damn good job of showing christianity for what it is... A giant waste of time. I fear, however, if you were to read it, your brain would actually interpret the words into something like the equivelent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming 'LALALALALALALALALALALALALAAAAA'...

Quote from: "karadan"O'Reilly would get a straight answer if he let Dawkins talk. Unfortunately every time O'reilly projects a question from his pie-hole he gives Dawkins approx 3 seconds to answer before interruptng him.

O'Reilly gave Dawkins every opportunity to tell his side, but when Dawkins replied with, "I cannot disprove Jesus.." That's all O'Reilly needed to hear. End of discussion.

QuoteLike you, he isn't actually interested in what Dawkins has to say due to the love of his own voice and rampant self-obsession. As someone said earlier in this thread, you seem to have watched a different clip seeing as you seem to get something entirely different from it. Goes to show how much delusion can warp the perceptive abilities.

I think O'Reilly won the debate when Dawkins could not disprove Christianity. I wouldn't waste too much time believing what Dawkins has to say if he can't even disprove a 2,000 year old story. blah!

QuoteRead the God Delusion before spouting such nonsense. In that book, Dawkins does a pretty damn good job of showing christianity for what it is... A giant waste of time.

Dawkins does nothing of the sort. He went on live tv and was disgraced by Bill O'Reilly.

Here is Dawkins' story in a nutshell. I'll sum up his book in one quote...

"I call your God a delusion, but yet, I cannot fully 100% disprove him".

Who is the deluded one now?

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "karadan"O'Reilly would get a straight answer if he let Dawkins talk. Unfortunately every time O'reilly projects a question from his pie-hole he gives Dawkins approx 3 seconds to answer before interruptng him.

O'Reilly gave Dawkins every opportunity to tell his side, but when Dawkins replied with, "I cannot disprove Jesus.." That's all O'Reilly needed to hear. End of discussion.

QuoteLike you, he isn't actually interested in what Dawkins has to say due to the love of his own voice and rampant self-obsession. As someone said earlier in this thread, you seem to have watched a different clip seeing as you seem to get something entirely different from it. Goes to show how much delusion can warp the perceptive abilities.

I think O'Reilly won the debate when Dawkins could not disprove Christianity. I wouldn't waste too much time believing what Dawkins has to say if he can't even disprove a 2,000 year old story. blah!

QuoteRead the God Delusion before spouting such nonsense. In that book, Dawkins does a pretty damn good job of showing christianity for what it is... A giant waste of time.

Dawkins does nothing of the sort. He went on live tv and was disgraced by Bill O'Reilly.

Here is Dawkins' story in a nutshell. I'll sum up his book in one quote...

"I call your God a delusion, but yet, I cannot fully 100% disprove him".

Who is the deluded one now?

You are a moron. I'm sorry to say, but you clearly have the knowledge of a 10 year old. First of all, read "The God Delusion" before you post idiotic repsonses. That is like me saying, "Here is Harry Potter's story in a nutshell. I'll sum up the book in one quote. "I am a wizard and I love to play Quidditch."" Richard Dawkins said he couldn't prove god's existence, but he was merely being honest. Neither you or O'Reily can prove god exists either. See where I'm going with this? You said you feel the love and presence of God. Well, Schizophrenic people feel the love and presence from their imaginary friends. You claim that Atheists hate Christians, so I'm wondering why you're even still posting on this website. To me, it would seem you have nothing better to do.

In the little clip posted here, I did hear O'Reilly say he needed his religion to keep him good or something....I bet.....It does not seem to be doing too good of a job for him, either.....LOL! O'Reilly and Bush....hmmmmm....what fine examples of Christians.......get me outta here......

Quote from: "Psalm23"Who is the deluded one now?

Quote from: "NaturaLCalamity"You are a moron.

Enough. Act like adults.

Can we stop feeding the troll now? I think what fun there was to be had has been had.  

Quote from: "Psalm23"Dear Moderator, atheists do NOT stereotype Christians??

I don't care what some atheists do or do not do; you just stereotyped athiests again by claiming atheists as a whole do those things you listed.  If it is too hard for you to view us as invividuals instead of what you percieve to be typical of atheists (agnostics and deists) then this is not the place for you and I'll see no reason let you stay on my forum.  I don't think anyone here has used stereotypes to argue against your views, if they have then that would be fair game for discussion.

In other words....last chance.

Quote from: "Will"Enough. Act like adults.

They are. Where do you think children learn it from?  

I'm done feeding the troll.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agoravox.fr%2FIMG%2Fdo_not_feed_trolls.jpg&hash=54bb1237a2341e14b5c3bc12f5c3fc27db532322)

I dunno... this whole conversation makes me kind of sad.

Psalm23, I'm speaking to you, as one human to another.

I don't believe as you do - can you accept that?

Can you accept me for myself, even if I am very differnt from you?

If so, then I invite you to walk a bit in my shoes.
Open your mind and soul to other possibilities.
I know it's scary - I've been through it myself.
For me, the alternative was much worse - a life where I had to ignore the world around me in order to live in a comfortable, known state.  A state where others shaped my world views for me.  For some, that's heaven.  For me, it's hell.

So, why am I sad?
I think I see where this is headed.
You'll keep preaching without listening, or even pausing to consider other human views.
Then you'll be banned from the forum.

But that's not the sad part.

The sad part is you will leave gladly, claiming some hollow "victory" over the non-believers.
"They couldn't handle the REAL TRUTH!  So they banned me - no loss for me... only for their eternal souls".

Now, I could be completely offbase with te above.  I freely admit I have been wrong in the past, and may be wrong now.

So I invite you to show me something we haven't seen yet.

Show me your soul.  Your humanity.  Your willingness to open to other humans around you.

Or not.

The choice (as always) is yours.

Peace,
JoeActor

My hat's off to you Joe. But I think you'll be disappointed in the response you get. Then again, who knows, maybe Psalm isn't a troll after all.

Quote from: "joeactor"I dunno... this whole conversation makes me kind of sad.

Psalm23, I'm speaking to you, as one human to another.

I don't believe as you do - can you accept that?

I can't accept that. For some unknown reason.. the very thought of atheists makes me angry. God blessed us with life, and atheists deny that. I can tell you what is sad, but you don't believe it.
Jesus said, "If you reject me, I will reject you in front of the Father.."

QuoteCan you accept me for myself, even if I am very differnt from you?

If so, then I invite you to walk a bit in my shoes.
Open your mind and soul to other possibilities.
I know it's scary - I've been through it myself.
For me, the alternative was much worse - a life where I had to ignore the world around me in order to live in a comfortable, known state.  A state where others shaped my world views for me.  For some, that's heaven.  For me, it's hell.

So, in other words, you are telling me to stray away from God? Is this the message atheists are teaching? Sounds like Satan to me. Do you ever notice atheists never once claim; "Satan doesn't exist!" it's always God, Jesus or Mary. Never Satan...

QuoteSo, why am I sad?
I think I see where this is headed.
You'll keep preaching without listening, or even pausing to consider other human views.
Then you'll be banned from the forum.

well, first off, I'm not preaching.. I am debating the existence of God. I mean, afterall, that is the reason for the "Religion" section, right?

QuoteBut that's not the sad part.

The sad part is you will leave gladly, claiming some hollow "victory" over the non-believers.

I already claimed victory when I was saved through the Body and Blood of Christ Jesus..

Quote"They couldn't handle the REAL TRUTH!  So they banned me

I know I will be banned.. wanna know how? Because Jesus said so.. that's how I know. "You will be rejected because of my name".

F

Psalm23,

Scroll up and look under JoeActor's sceen name on the right.  Please take note that he is not an athiest.  Maes, who posted right above me, is also not an atheist.  That's what I was trying to convey in my previous post, not everyone who disagrees with you here is an atheist...we have agnostic and deist members too.

QuoteFor some unknown reason.. the very thought of atheists makes me angry.

Here's the reason why: It's called an enlarged egotism. Normally I find this a respectable quality in someone (I'm weird), but not when the egotism says I'm morally superior than you. That would require humility.

If we anger you so much, I suggest you do yourself a favor and avoid the stressor. Leave the forum. Hate atheists from a distance.

JoeActor - one hates to say I told you so.  If it make you feel better, Psalm is probably just a teeny bopper who just found Jesus and thinks they now know the answer to everything.

Quote from: "Psalm23"For some unknown reason.. the very thought of atheists makes me angry.

Thank you for finally admitting you have no intention of being accepting of others as human beings with a right to believe as they will.

I'm not going to ban Psalm23 yet, we've had a couple private exchanges that went smoothly enough...I would like to see that sort of smooth exchange in the public threads.

Everyone, from this point on, do not respond rudely to Psalm23 in this thread.  If there is a problem, just report it.  I think that will help to correct the tone of this thread and let him/her see first hand that we are not what s/he thinks we are.

That said...

Psalm23, thanks for agreeing to make an effort to engage us in a more friendly manner.  I don't like banning people and hope that you are able to figure out how to control your anger towards us.

I, for one, never wanted to see anyone get banned.....Either engage with someone or don't, but banning someone leaves us all here as same, mostly....I don't always like to preach to the chorus....LOL!

OK, I don't stereotype all religious people, either...I take each religious person as their own individual, at first, too....like color, age and sex and take it from there....Sometimes, I find I have more in common with a religious person,, than a non religious person when discussing other things,....It just depends on each and every individual.....

I know this thread died a few days ago, but I came across it and wanted to ask a question.

Why do atheist make believers angry? Why does our lack of belief bother you so much?

To be honest, I don't get why there is such a negative connotation to being an atheist. Since I decided that I was an atheist I've never been happier. Knowing that there is nothing after I die makes me life my life to the fullest and enjoy every second I'm alive. It's amazing to live free of the weight of religion.

Quote from: "RickaRicka"I know this thread died a few days ago, but I came across it and wanted to ask a question.

Why do atheist make believers angry? Why does our lack of belief bother you so much?

To be honest, I don't get why there is such a negative connotation to being an atheist. Since I decided that I was an atheist I've never been happier. Knowing that there is nothing after I die makes me life my life to the fullest and enjoy every second I'm alive. It's amazing to live free of the weight of religion.

That's it right there.  How dare you be happy while disowning god!  

Quote from: "Lilbeth"In the little clip posted here, I did hear O'Reilly say he needed his religion to keep him good or something.

Yeeeees… It always disturbs me when you get the impression that people would turn into massâ€"murdering rampant maniacs if they didn’t have the threat of god’s punishment hanging over their heads. I consider a person who thinks about stuff like that and decides against it because they deem it wrong MORE moral than a religious person who only stays good because god tells them to OR ELSE!

F

I just want to think about the idea of 'disproof' for a second. Atheists and theists handle the same concept (God) from a negative and a positive angle respectively. If proof is something which supports a positive claim ('God exists'), then to 'disprove' is the negative equivalent; it's simply to discredit or in some way take away that proof. To expect a negative to do anything other than this is absurd - it doesn't need to. A claim like 'God does not exist' refutes its own subject, so what is it supposed to supply proof for, exactly? To disprove is ultimately to point out that the opposition's evidence is invalid, which, in itself, doesn't always require evidence of its own. In this case, for instance, by simply pointing out that there is no evidence supporting a Christian God, you are logically disproving his existence. It cannot be absolute, certainly, as absolute 'truth' is an asymptote and, as Psalm23 points out, we've only scratched the surface of the potential data, but it is as absolute as any positive 'proof'.

Just as, if I were to accuse Psalm23 of murder in the first degree, you couldn't logically take me seriously. There would be no weight to that claim whatsoever as to refute it all you would need to say is "Oi Mr. Joy, you rampant SPAZ, where's your evidence?" I could say that you are being ridiculous for dismissing my claims because you don't even know Psalm23! How can you tell me that he's not a murderer when you've never even met him/her?

Now, Psalm23, if you can explain to me, reasonably, why I should believe in God yet not believe you are a murderer, without any double-standards, I'll be mightily impressed.