Happy Atheist Forum

QuoteI guess it was the title of Friendly Atheist's post ("Can You Avoid Religious Psychologists?") that struck a nerve and necessitated this response. As an atheist, it ticks me off when people spread misconceptions about atheists, and as I psychologist, I feel similarly when it comes to my profession. It is a hell of a lot harder to find a psychologist who will push religion on their clients than it is one who would never dream of doing so! I'd like to use Friendly Atheist's post as a springboard to give you some tips on selecting a mental health provider.


A reader contacted Friendly Atheist and had the following to say:

QuoteSomething just happened that I’d like advice on (from you or your readers). My son has been diagnosed with ADHD by his pediatrician and I figured we’d go to a child psychologist for more info (an idea the pediatrician encouraged). I picked the closest one on my insurance’s coverage list and set up an appointment.

    Luckily, we got an informational packet in the mail from this psychologist (actually a Licensed Professional Counselor) before we actually went to meet with her. Let me quote some of the things that were in her packet.

    The counselor’s responsibilities are:
    * Spending personal time with the Lord
    * Praying for the client
    * Studying scriptures
    * Listening to client concerns, facts, feelings, faith position
    * Sharing scripture and personal walk appropriate to client concerns
    * Praying with the client, acknowledging God’s available presence with him/her

    She holds a Master’s degree in Religious Education from a Baptist theological seminary (in addition to other more valid sounding degrees). She signs off by saying, “I have already begun to pray for our times together…”

    I was dumbfounded by this. I mean, I do live in the Bible Belt, so I shouldn’t have been surprised. But I am still dismayed that this person appeared on a list of medical providers supplied by my insurance company!

    I guess my question is, how do I keep this from happening again? (I cancelled the appointment, of course.) Do I need to call and explicitly ask each psychologist (or whatever other health care specialist) if their practice is based in reality or superstition?

The reader did the right thing by canceling the appointment. Fortunately, this sort of thing is actually fairly easy to avoid. There are some nutjobs out there, but they are the minority. This is true even in the Bible Belt.

First, I'd like to clarify some credentialing terminology. The provider described by the reader was a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC) and not a psychologist. The LPC is a master's-level designation as opposed to the doctoral degree psychologists have. There are many excellent LPCs out there, and they are a cheaper alternative when one does not need the additional expertise of a psychologist.

So when might one need the additional expertise of a psychologist? First, a psychologist will generally have more extensive research training than a master's level clinician. This does not necessarily mean they are better, but it does mean that they are more likely to operate as scientist-practitioners than master's-level clinicians who are going to focus on the practitioner side. The more complex the problem, the greater benefit can be derived from someone with this additional training. Second, psychologists can do psychological testing. I mention this not only because it is a critical difference but because it might be relevant to Friendly Atheist's reader. Medical doctors routinely overdiagnose ADHD, and psychological testing is likely to result in a more accurate diagnosis.

For the atheist who needs a mental health professional, psychologist or counselor, I offer the following recommendations:

    * When first calling to schedule an appointment, inquire about the provider's degree and the institution from where the degree was obtained. Steer clear of anything that does not have "psychology" or "counseling" in the degree.
    * If the provider is an LPC, ask directly whether this person provides "Christian counseling." If so, move on. You are not asking whether the counselor is Christian but whether they provide "Christian counseling." This is an important difference and one which you are well advised to heed.
    * View the initial appointment as an opportunity to evaluate the provider. If you do not feel comfortable for any reason, ask for a referral and move on. Reputable providers tend to encourage this sort of evaluation - they want to make sure they can be helpful to you and that you feel comfortable with them.
    * Recognize that many mental health professionals will ask, on questionnaires or in person, something about your religious affiliation or the importance of spirituality in your life. They tend to do this to help understand your worldview and not to convert you. However, if the provider should make disparaging comments about your lack of religious participation, spirituality, and the like, move on. This represents a violation of the provider's own professional ethics, and you deserve better.
    * If you are seeking therapy and want to make sure that your provider will utilize scientifically-sound methods, look for someone who provides cognitive-behavioral therapy. Of all the therapeutic modalities, it has been researched the most extensively and has the most evidence supporting its efficacy.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/02/how-t ... selor.html (http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/02/how-to-select-psychologist-or-counselor.html)

Thanks to blogger vjack for this very informative and important entry. Some very shameless and misdirected counselors may believe that their position provides them with the opportunity to proselytize, but they are 100% wrong even if they have theist clients. Psychology is a science. Counseling is a skill based on psychology, a science. While some may want to think that religion can be a way of helping people heal, it's really not. It's more like helping someone deal with an alcohol addiction by giving them cocaine. Sure, they don't drink anymore, but they're still living in a gutter.

Do be sure to check the credentials of a psychologist, psychiatrist, or counselor before retaining their services.

The last thing I need when choosing someone to fix my crazy is someone who's even crazier than me!  

Unfortunately, the poor in America are stuck with religious counselors.  Every free or low cost mental health service provider in my area that I've investigated has proven to use Christian counseling.  I didn't even know such a thing existed until I saw a free mental health counselor who advised me to pray when I'm having a panic attack.

Maybe it's just the area I live in (West Michigan) but it is pretty discouraging.  

Real psychologists are only for the well off it seems.  Heck, I'm still paying off my psychotherapist bill co-pays from when I had insurance.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Unfortunately, the poor in America are stuck with religious counselors.  Every free or low cost mental health service provider in my area that I've investigated has proven to use Christian counseling.  I didn't even know such a thing existed until I saw a free mental health counselor who advised me to pray when I'm having a panic attack.

Maybe it's just the area I live in (West Michigan) but it is pretty discouraging.  

Real psychologists are only for the well off it seems.  Heck, I'm still paying off my psychotherapist bill co-pays from when I had insurance.

My mum's an LMFT with a private practice and she accepts people that try to get counseling through medical providers. She gets less money, but the people need help. She is religious, but I know that she'd never be the kind to interject religion into her practice. Most of the shrinks I know are the same; leave god at the door.

It's only in psychology they could get away with this. A heart surgeon would never pray for someone's carotid artery to unblock itself, becuase its obvious that won't work. Yet here, where problems are more complex and not as easy to see, the idiots can claim any healing is a result of their woo woo and superstitions.

Religion always preys on the weak  

Now none of this applies to the counselor described in the original post, who seemed to take a religious approach right from the get go and relied on such religious practices as praying as part of the treatment.

In my experience as a patient, part of what a good therapist can help you with is in showing you how you are thinking irrationally and how it is affecting your mental health, for example through cognitive therapy. I've gone into therapy with some pretty irrational ideas (I have PTSD - so alter-egos, going for weeks without eating and such like) and I think the most help I've got from it is having these irrational thoughts gently pointed out to me.

A problem that counselors and therapists encounter is they have to accept whatever religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) a patient has and kind of roll with them, however irrational they may be and however different they might be to their own. For example, I've met some people in group therapy who have been made mentally ill apparently primarily because of their religious faith. I met one poor woman who became depressed because she had adulterous thoughts. She was not having a relationship outside of her marriage. But the combination of merely thinking about it and being catholic made her feel very guilty, which in turn made her depressed. That seems pretty irrational but it's not the job of a therapist to turn people into secularists or at least people of a benign religion.

Is that a good thing? Should therapists treat people for being religious if it is causing them harm?

Therapists should remove crazy. Religion= crazy

If most people claimed to hear voices they would be sectioned, but because they share the same delusion its apparently OK.

I agree, SSY. Unfortunately it's difficult for a lot of therapists to have perspective on this as they are religious themselves and one of the tenants of religion is "thou shalt not dare question, lest ye be tortured for eternity". I hold the irony in the inability to self-reflect on such an important topic, for therapists, to be self-evident.

The sad part is we already can determine, based on established scientific theory, what exactly religious people are afflicted with. Things like groupthink and schizophrenia are rampant and could be treated if only they could be identified as such.

I've moved around through several head-shrinkers over the years, and one big part was due to an inability to communicate do to social/religious issues.  I've never seen an assessment questionare that doesn't ask about religion.  My current is religious (or I think she is there are cherubs by the front door and a massive poster of the Footprints poem on a wall in the waiting room) but she has never once mentioned religion to me, never even hinted at it.  She asked in the assesment "what religion, if any, do you consider yourself a member" I put none, and that was that.  You have to hunt for someone that you feel comfortable with or you'll struggle through therapy.

I agree with Kalyssa when she mentioned being stuck if you can't afford the service.  Most pychiatrists don't accept insurance anymore and most medical plans cover meds and MD visits but cover very little by way of talk therapy.  It's sad really because of the high rate of mental illness and the lack of help that can be found.  Such a large percentage of our homeless suffer from mental illness and our prisons are full of the mentally ill.  I guess this is one of the societal pendulum swings, we went from state hospitals that could commit people without due process to making it almost impossible to get legitimate help.

I'd keep my crazy if my shrink tried to talk to me about religion as part of my treatment.

I came across this website because one of my clients is an atheist. I was truely saddened to see how hateful and ignorant some people on here appear to be about therapist, psychologist, and christian counselors. Since I am a Christian counselor with a Master's Degree in Counseling let me educate those of you who think we are "nut jobs" just what our degree entails.

Actually we have more education than most secular counselors. We take all the courses that any psychologist has to take PLUS all the theological courses that ministers take. Then we integrate psychology and theology. In addition to that theology has been around for thousands of years and psychology is a new science which is only 100 years old. Psychology GREW out of theology, not the other way around and borrows many of its personality theories from what Jesus taught in the Bible.

For instance Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a common theory studied by all psychologists comes from Jesus teachings, and all psychology did was change the names, etc. and give them secular names.

All of man's problems have at their "root" cause a heart/soul problem. Since most of you on here are atheist and therefore are your own "gods" it would be a waste of my time to actually try to convince you that there is another God other than yourself. Can you make a tree? Nope, all you can do is make a desk or some other object out of the wood of the tree. When you can actually make a tree or a mountain, please alert the defense department because you will have the answer to all wars.

Here is the defintion of a REAL Pastoral Counselor.

Pastoral counselors are certified mental health professionals who have had extensive religious/theological training and clinical training in the behavioral sciences. They may specialize in marriage and family therapy, addiction, grief, and other issues, including serious mental illnesses. They may also provide educational programs on marriage preparation, adjusting to divorce, and coping with loss and grief. They may work in health clinics, state hospital, private and group practices, congregation-based centers, or in pastoral counseling centers.
Pastoral counselors are psychotherapists with specialized training in the areas of psychology, theology, and the behavioral sciences. Pastoral counselors come from all faith backgrounds and are sensitive, respectful, and responsive to their clients’ belief systems.

The Pastoral in our name is the traditional name for counseling that integrates therapy with a client’s faith and/or values.
Pastoral counseling is psychotherapy reinforced with compassion and intentional respect for the spiritual values of the client.
Pastoral counseling takes seriously the spiritual dimension of a person in the healing process while working with individuals, couples, and families to resolve problems.
Pastoral counseling is built on the belief that life’s crises and transitions are best met by the knowledge of psychology, the wisdom of theology, and with respect for a person’s faith background and values.

I feel sorry for the poster on here who actually cancelled the appointment with that Christian Therapist. She is now goint to go the psychology/medication route, which will not cure her son, but merely keep him doped up enough so that he is not a behavioral problem. A  Christian therapist would actually have given her a way to get to the root of his ADHD disorder, which by the way cannot be scientifically measured in the brain as even existing but would call it what it really is.

It is kids who have parents who are afraid to discipline them and give them consequences for their behavior for fear their child will not love them anymore. And as she will find, the medication will not work after awhile and she will STILL have the same problem.

Do not take this to believe that I don't believe in medication. Because in Bi-polar Disorder which IS an organic chemical imbalance that can be found in the brain, then medication gets these chemicals back in balance. ALL the disorders in the DSM-V or the Diagnostic Manual that psychologists and psychiatrists, and therapists use are really just names that a group of people gave to a common list of characteristics displayed in many people. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence found in the brain to explain any of them. That is because they do not exist. The brains of a serial killer and a housewife look just the same. What makes the difference between them is a heart/soul/sin problem.

The serial killer has no conscious and the housewife does. One feels guilt and remorse and the other does not.

Anyway, too bad you atheist rely compleletly on yourselves to solve all of your problems. That is UNTIL you are near to death or someone you love is about to die, and then lo and behold "all of sudden" you want to believe that there is a God. And you know why? Because YOU cannot stop them from dying. YOU cannot bring them back to life. And therein lies the difference.









Pastoral counselors typically have a bachelor’s degree, a three-year professional degree, and a specialized master’s or doctoral degree in a mental health field.

Since you have an atheist client it might be helpful for you to know that atheists do not view themselves as god...if we did we wouldn't be atheists.  Your comment about atheists turning to god when they have troubles in life is exactly why atheists don't want to see theology based counselors...you think we have to change our views towards the god concept in order to be well in times of need; that's simply not true.

Quote from: "Miracle89"I feel sorry for the poster on here who actually cancelled the appointment with that Christian Therapist. She is now goint to go the psychology/medication route, which will not cure her son, but merely keep him doped up enough so that he is not a behavioral problem.

As a trained counselor, I'm somewhat surprised to hear that you think the child will be prescribed medications if they visit a psychologist.  Psychologists are not able to prescribe medications, only psychiatrists can, as they are the ones who go to school for an MD (psychologists will generally have a PhD or a PsyD).

Quote from: "Miracle89"ALL the disorders in the DSM-V or the Diagnostic Manual that psychologists and psychiatrists, and therapists use are really just names that a group of people gave to a common list of characteristics displayed in many people. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence found in the brain to explain any of them.

Again, I'm rather surprised to hear a trained counselor make such a claim, as it is plainly false, to the point of being a lie.  A common example where we see differences in the brain is among schizophrenics, but there are countless organic brain disorders... organic disorders with empirical support... which are disorders listed in the DSM-IV.  

In sum, you simply cannot be taken seriously, nor am I inclined to believe your claim about being a counselor if you don't know these simple facts which are covered in most Psych 101 classes.  

Quote from: "Miracle89"The brains of a serial killer and a housewife look just the same. What makes the difference between them is a heart/soul/sin problem.

And the farts of purple unicorns cause erections in leprechauns.  Until you share some peer-reviewed and repeatable evidence in support of such a strange assertion, then my claim and yours rest on exactly the same footing.

Quote from: "Miracle89"Anyway, too bad you atheist rely compleletly on yourselves to solve all of your problems.

Well, that's just false (at least you're consistent).  I have lots of friends, family members, and colleagues, and we work together to solve problems just as any good community/troop/pack would.  Really, I'm beginning to question if you are even out of high school yet based on the silliness of your assertions.  I don't mean this as insult, so if you've matriculated beyond high school, then please note I'm more challenging your credentials and knowledge on the topic than I am your character or ability.  I've worked directly with countless clinical psychologists, and have spent many years studying these phenomenon... and the simple fact is that most of what you have said is easily recognized as blatantly inaccurate to anyone with even a remedial knowledge of the topic.

Quote from: "Miracle89"That is UNTIL you are near to death or someone you love is about to die, and then lo and behold "all of sudden" you want to believe that there is a God.

Again, this is plainly false.  I lost my father when I was young, and I didn't turn to god for much the same reason that I did not turn to the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, or a leprechaun.  You've essentially just repeated the false assertion that "there are no atheists in foxholes."  Reality shows that there are, so this is yet another baseless and incorrect assertion from you.  You're already questionable credibility has now taken yet another blow.

Quote from: "Miracle89"Pastoral counselors typically have a bachelor’s degree, a three-year professional degree, and a specialized master’s or doctoral degree in a mental health field.

Interesting to know.  Thanks for sharing.

Miracle89 there is so much factually wrong with what you are saying it made me laugh.  The only thing you've done by openly posting your ignorance is make me disrespect Christian Counselors.  I never gave it much thought until that post you made right there.  I feel you are psychologically abusing your patient by feeding him misinformation along with your own prejudices.  I find it interesting you are supposed to have both a normal degree then a theological one.  What happens when they conflict?  I bet I can guess ^_^.  

iNow great response too bad it will most likely land on deaf ears.

First of all I KNOW that only psychiatrists can prescribe medications. And secondly, your insults are EXACTLY what I expected. Attacking my credentials, calling me names, etc. Typical liberal atheistic jargon. Don't bother to reply as I will not engage in back and forth arguements. I merely posted what I did for the few persons who might not know better about christian counselors.

Quote from: "Miracle89"First of all I KNOW that only psychiatrists can prescribe medications.

I apologize.  My mistake.  That was not obvious when reading your post.

Quote from: "Miracle89"And secondly, your insults are EXACTLY what I expected. Attacking my credentials, calling me names, etc. Typical liberal atheistic jargon.

In any area of academic or intellectual pursuit, it is appropriate to challenge assertions and discard false premises.  I apologize that my post came across as a personal attack, but ask that you note my attack was on your assertions, and not on you.  There were no insults, just attempts to ensure validity and accuracy for any readers of this thread.

Since you have stated that you are a trained counselor, I am again surprised at your reaction.  Counselors go through countless hours of training in group sessions to ensure they have control over their emotions, as an inappropriate response such as yours above during a therapy session could negatively impact the progress of their patient.  Basically, I am incredibly reluctant to accept your stated credentials due to the number of false assertions in your previous post, and also due to the way in which you responded so aggressively toward me... and in such a personal and vitriolic manner... instead of demonstrating your knowledge by addressing my questions and criticisms.  


Finally, you mentioned that I was using "jargon."  If I've shared any words which you'd like me to better define, please indicate precisely which ones and I will be glad to clear up any confusion wherever I can.  Thanks for your response.

I personally would like to see evidence for the claim that

QuoteThe brains of a serial killer and a housewife look just the same. What makes the difference between them is a heart/soul/sin problem.

I'm sure that they physically look the same if you cut open the skull.  But do they look when various tests are done....  I'm especially skeptical of the claim that it can be known that a person becomes a serial killer due to their spiritual state.

I wanted to know Miracle89's thoughts on the results of the Milgram experiment I posted on another thread. Not to argue. I'm in no position to argue against someone with a psychology background. I just wanted to understand how a Christian with a psychological would say about them.

I think iNow made a good argument but I count three instances of ad hominem attack (sorry iNow). If we could avoid that we might have an interesting debate with Miracle89 if it isn't already too late.

Quote from: "Miracle89"Actually we have more education than most secular counselors. We take all the courses that any psychologist has to take PLUS all the theological courses that ministers take. Then we integrate psychology and theology. In addition to that theology has been around for thousands of years and psychology is a new science which is only 100 years old. Psychology GREW out of theology, not the other way around and borrows many of its personality theories from what Jesus taught in the Bible.

I'm afraid this is full of holes. Education in psychology is education in psychology. If you go to an accredited school and take the classes in order to get your degree, you've got your degree. It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus, Apollo, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As for theological classes being additional training, that's a grave misunderstanding of what science is. The Bible contains no peer reviewed, double-blind studies. It's a religious book, not a journal. The fact you consider your religious training "more education" actually reinforces the dangers outlined in the blog post.

Quote from: "Miracle89"For instance Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a common theory studied by all psychologists comes from Jesus teachings, and all psychology did was change the names, etc. and give them secular names.

Yes and no. Some of the basic structure was mentioned by Jesus, but the teachings didn't originate with him. Teachings from prophets, messiahs, and philosophers that predate when Jesus may have been alive came up with the basic ideas.

Quote from: "Miracle89"All of man's problems have at their "root" cause a heart/soul problem. Since most of you on here are atheist and therefore are your own "gods" it would be a waste of my time to actually try to convince you that there is another God other than yourself. Can you make a tree? Nope, all you can do is make a desk or some other object out of the wood of the tree. When you can actually make a tree or a mountain, please alert the defense department because you will have the answer to all wars.

If you're licensed, someone has made a grave mistake. If you're treating people on the basis that their emotional problems are rooted in the supernatural, that somehow their "heart/soul" has something to do with their problems, you're a danger to them. Psychology is a science first and foremost. Would you go to a doctor that wanted to prescribe you something because you were possessed by an evil spirit? I'd report such a person to the appropriate authorities.

Quote from: "Miracle89"Do not take this to believe that I don't believe in medication. Because in Bi-polar Disorder which IS an organic chemical imbalance that can be found in the brain, then medication gets these chemicals back in balance. ALL the disorders in the DSM-V or the Diagnostic Manual that psychologists and psychiatrists, and therapists use are really just names that a group of people gave to a common list of characteristics displayed in many people. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence found in the brain to explain any of them. That is because they do not exist. The brains of a serial killer and a housewife look just the same. What makes the difference between them is a heart/soul/sin problem.

I see, so the DSM is just a collection of unsupported opinions, but your theological classes provide you with a stellar education in psychology. On what planet did you earn your degree? I earned mine from Santa Clara University, class of 2005. I applied and was accepted to a graduate program but had to put it on hold for a family. I'm not licensed yet, but I've been studying for quite some time and I feel I'm ready. My mother is a doctorate level LMFT, and two of my best friends are licensed counselors. From my experience in the field, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Quote from: "Miracle89"The serial killer has no conscious and the housewife does. One feels guilt and remorse and the other does not.

The idea of conscience plays little to no part in psychology. A serial killer might have APD or DPD, but there's no way to make a diagnosis without meeting him or her. And how do you know the housewife doesn't have APD?

Quote from: "Miracle89"Anyway, too bad you atheist rely compleletly on yourselves to solve all of your problems. That is UNTIL you are near to death or someone you love is about to die, and then lo and behold "all of sudden" you want to believe that there is a God. And you know why? Because YOU cannot stop them from dying. YOU cannot bring them back to life. And therein lies the difference.

I don't rely on myself to solve all my problems, I rely on science and so do you. Do you go to a prayer circle when you break your arm or do you visit a licensed physician? Unless you're fundamentalist, you likely see the doctor.

Anyway, many doctors routinely stop people from dying, and even bring them back from a short death. They're not psychologists, you're right, but psychology isn't about people's physical health, it's about their mental health.

Quote from: "Miracle89"Pastoral counselors typically have a bachelor’s degree, a three-year professional degree, and a specialized master’s or doctoral degree in a mental health field.

This is complete and utter nonsense. Most pastors offer counseling and most pastors do not have an education in psychology.

I'm going to go ahead and rule this as a troll, as most of the mistakes in this wouldn't be made by a first year psych student.

Quote from: "Will"I'm going to go ahead and rule this as a troll, as most of the mistakes in this wouldn't be made by a first year psych student.

That's what I was thinking too.

I think the claim that she has an atheist client and was doing research on internet forums because of that client was a give away in itself.  1)Most atheists wouldn't visit a counselor who 'specializes' in spiritual based healing.  2)Professionals don't use forums as a research tool.

Quote from: "Miracle89"ALL the disorders in the DSM-V or the Diagnostic Manual that psychologists and psychiatrists, and therapists use are really just names that a group of people gave to a common list of characteristics displayed in many people. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence found in the brain to explain any of them. That is because they do not exist. The brains of a serial killer and a housewife look just the same. What makes the difference between them is a heart/soul/sin problem.

Attitudes like this are responsible for the lack of treatment for mental illnesses in this country.  Many religious people hold that mental and emotional illnesses do not exist - they are only signs of bad parenting, character flaws, or the lack of the right relationship with Jesus.  Some of them even believe those things about things like brain damage.

Some religious people claim that autism, mental retardation, PDD, ADD, and ADHD do not really exist, that they are all just bad parenting.  Some religious people claim that depression, PTSD, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders, and other such illnesses do not exist, that they are all just character flaws and symptoms of being a weak or bad person with an inadequate relationship with Jesus.

I am a high functioning autistic.  I suffer from PTSD and anxiety attacks as a result of multiple physical assaults I have survived both as a child and as an adult.  I also suffered brain damage from one of those assaults.  When I had good insurance, I saw a psychotherapist and a neurological psychologist.  Both helped me immensely.  The neurological psychologist helped me to understand and deal with the emotional issues caused by physical damage to my brain and the psychotherapist (also a psychologist) helped me deal with my other emotional issues caused by traumatic events through talk therapy.

After I lost my insurance a bunch of unpleasant life situations (onset of a new physical illness, a divorce, an accident, etc.) I felt my life spiraling out of control and I was afraid of becoming homeless again.  I started having panic attacks again and having flashbacks, sleep disturbances, and anxiety.  So logically I sought help.  Without insurance, all I could get is a religious "therapist".  I wasn't really aware she was a religious "therapist" until our first session.  I expected to encounter logic and the leading to self discovery I'd experienced with previous therapists.  Instead, I was told I needed to pray when I have panic attacks.  In other words, she was useless.  When I told her that I'm not religious, she told me that that was the root of all my problems.  You know what?  It's not.

My brain and its quirks combined with circumstances which include having been attacked by vicious, brutal, murderous raping bastards and having been homeless are responsible for my mental issues.  I'm not a weak person with a character flaw and a fatal lack of Jesus, I'm a flawed, organic, living creature that has been damaged and stressed beyond its natural capacity to bounce back.

The actual psychologists I've seen never brought religion or sin or any other such nonsense into my treatment.  And that treatment, when I could afford it, was very effective.

I'm sorry but this is the honest truth, Miracle 89, you disgust me. People like you flaunt your arrogance and self righteousness all over the place combined with your indomitable ignorance, stupidity and lack of a will to call your own make claims of having titles that people spend years working for and make a mockery of them with your post throwing all of their work in the trash to replace it with your psycho religion babble. Even if you really are a counselor you should have any credentials stripped from you, you prey on someone when they're down and indoctrinate them and take away their own ability to pull themselves out of the gutter and make them depend on an invisible sadistic man in the sky and waste the remainder of their life worshiping something that doesn't exist. You then insult those who earn those degrees even more by claiming that there are no mental disorders, organic or otherwise and claim that it is all based on their belief in Jesus and the state of their "soul" thus not only insulting all of the science that can be proven with empirical data but insulting nearly every member of this forum by equating us to a serial killer because of our lack of blind faith aka stupidity and lack of will.

I can't stand people like you, always preying on a person's insecurities. I met a counselor like or as you claim before. They tried this same spiel that you are spitting out and I told them the same thing. I have been diagnosed with ADHD, Schizophrenia, Bi-polar disorder and last week I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. When I would sit in class and the antithesis of my being and consciousness sat right before me even though no one else could see said thing because it was in my head and told me constantly to kill and many other negative things not once did I ever listen to that voice or any other because I willed myself. If I gave into your mythologies I would have likely ended up in jail by now because I would think it was ok because God forgives me and all of that self justification crap. I made the voices shut up on my own without medicine, I found a balance of mood on my own without drugs, I focused without drugs and when I was told I have Asperger's and what it exactly is I grew sad but I picked myself back up again and just accepted it as another quirk that makes up my unconventional brain. I don't and never did need Santa Claus to overcome all of the things that are wrong with me. Watch what you say next time and actually form a coherent thought before you insult everything that makes logical, intelligent people hopeful for humanity again.

Thanks for posting that Ultima. I have PTSD. I haven't had visual hallucinations in years. In fact it's been so long I now question the memories. I did have auditory hallucinations a year or so back during a bad spell. My voices told me to kill too. I didn't do anything obviously =). Stupid mental illness...

Quote from: "AlP"Thanks for posting that Ultima. I have PTSD. I haven't had visual hallucinations in years. In fact it's been so long I now question the memories. I did have auditory hallucinations a year or so back during a bad spell. My voices told me to kill too. I didn't do anything obviously =). Stupid mental illness...

After hearing the experiences of others who have PTSD I feel fortunate that my hallucination experiences have only been in the realm of flashbacks and waking nightmares.

Those religious "therapists" are simply dangerous.  I believe that if I'd landed in religious "therapist" hands when I first sought help I probably would have worsened rather than getting better.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"After hearing the experiences of others who have PTSD I feel fortunate that my hallucination experiences have only been in the realm of flashbacks and waking nightmares.

Those religious "therapists" are simply dangerous.  I believe that if I'd landed in religious "therapist" hands when I first sought help I probably would have worsened rather than getting better.

Yeah having an inappropriate therapist when you're going though a bad spell could be bad news. It might work for people with a compatible religion though? I have no idea.

You know I've been thinking about psychiatrists' responses to hallucinations like the ones I described. I've had a few psychiatrists. They were really quick to prescribe anti-psychotics. I'm thinking if you're a psychiatrist and you've never experienced it personally the primary concern is to make it stop in case the patient actually does what the voices say. I haven't seen any evidence that voices telling one to kill affects one's values though. I was not even remotely close to that. Voices are annoying and disturbing. Having someone stand beside me and in real life tell me to kill would also be annoying / disturbing. And of course I would not do what they said. But the side effects of an anti-psychotic like Risperdal like I took are quite severe. It's a major tranquilizer.

Does anyone with a relevant background know if there is any research showing people with disturbing voices are in some way more likely to act on them than if they were told the same thing by a real life person?

That's not to say I think psychiatrists are doing a bad job. I've had really good experiences with psychiatrists figuring out which anti-depressants works for me.

Some psychiatrists are quick to prescribe, but most are entirely professional.

Have you considered speaking to a psychologist? They can't prescribe you a thing.

Quote from: "Will"Some psychiatrists are quick to prescribe, but most are entirely professional.

Have you considered speaking to a psychologist? They can't prescribe you a thing.

Yeah I think next time that's what I'll do Will, even if it costs more.

When I was still in school, the common joke was that psychologists treat the root cause, whereas psychiatrists more often treat just the symptoms.  It's crude, and is not entirely fair to psychiatrists, but gets a simple point across quickly.  You can medicate, or you can remediate.  You choose.

Quote from: "iNow"When I was still in school, the common joke was that psychologists treat the root cause, whereas psychiatrists more often treat just the symptoms.

Man, that brings back memories.

I miss school.  

QuoteTHERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence found in the brain to explain any of them. That is because they do not exist.

This, coming from a Christian, I find to be a delectable irony. You sir, are a master of wit.

Hello Miracle89,

I'm not sure you really understand how your statements are perceived by people who don't believe.

Let me give you an example - start with your statement:

Quote from: "Miracle89"Actually we have more education than most secular counselors. We take all the courses that any psychologist has to take PLUS all the theological courses that ministers take. Then we integrate psychology and theology. In addition to that theology has been around for thousands of years and psychology is a new science which is only 100 years old. Psychology GREW out of theology, not the other way around ...

... now, with a few substitutions (in bold):

QuoteActually we have more education than most secular counselors. We take all the courses that any astronomer has to take PLUS all the mystical courses that astrologers take. Then we integrate astronomy and astrology. In addition to that astrology has been around for thousands of years and astronomy is a new science which is only 100 years old. Astronomy GREW out of astrology, not the other way around ...

So... can you see how your statement may not come off as you intended?

I feel bad for the atheist client!!  This "therapist" seems to have some hostilities and biases against atheists.  Now, I do have a therapist who has an "interest in integrating spiritual and mental health" and has trained at Rosemead, which has a theological component in its program.  However, knowing that I am an atheist, he has respected that and has never once made any attempts to preach or suggest in any way that my problems are "spiritual based", and has never been anything but professional.  A proper therapist will use many evidence-based techniques in their arsenal, and reserve the "faith based" psychology for those who really want it.

I have to admit, I was a little put off by his description of his bio - after all, the person I was referred to couldn't take me (she is fully booked), but referred me to my current therapist, who is also in her practice.  I was really afraid he was going to be like this psychologist poster, hostile and prejudiced toward atheists, and if I got that feeling I would have certainly walked and requested a different therapist.  I am glad that I did give him the benefit of the doubt, because he is actually the best therapist that I have worked with so far.  There is a great deal of mutual respect for each other's beliefs, even if they aren't the same.  I would encourage the therapist who has posted here to learn about atheism and have some empathy, or reject atheist clients, because you certainly can't be helping them in the state of mind you are in.

Online Psychotherapy services can provide a safe and supportive environment in which you can focus on your own life and on what matters to you.
drkuelker.com

admin edit:  I would suggest not using this guy's services.  What good psychologist has time to go around spamming forums?  What one would think it was a good idea?

If I have to deconvert my psychologist do I get to bill them for my time or is it just deducted from the bill?