Happy Atheist Forum

So they showed EXPELLED on my campus the other night. I went to the discussion afterwards and pretty much tore the film apart, in the most polite way as I could. The editor of the campus' christian journal wants me to write for their journal now as a voice from the other side.

Here's an e-mail from the editor:
   
Hey!

I haven't forgot about our conversation... but as I'm sure you can infer from the subject of this e-mail, my time has been pretty crunched lately. I do want to talk more though.

Have you ever read CS Lewis (anything he wrote besides Narnia anyways)?  A couple things you said in your Facebook message made me think of this essay.  I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this paper.  I really enjoyed it of course, but to me it was something of him preaching to the choir, whereas you would be more the viewpoint he is directly challenging.

Also, there's something I would like you to think about. For our next issue, we are going to start a new Point-Counterpoint feature, where two different writers tackle a question from differing viewpoints and respond to each other. What we've discussed as a staff is the question "Does God exist?" I was wondering if you would be interested in discussing your opinion as the dissenting viewpoint.

The process would be basically that both authors would have one page to say whatever they want to answer that question. Style, amount of persuasiveness, amount of sources, disciplines explored, would all be up to the discretion of the author. The two writers would not be able to consult with each other about what the other is writing. After the first piece is written, both authors would be given a smaller amount of space to offer a rebuttal to each other's arguments, but no new information would be allowed to be presented in the rebuttal.

Anyway, it's still a work in progress, so any critiques you may have to offer about the idea itself would be appreciated too. I won't try to flatter you or anything, but I think it's clear because of your understanding of a wide variety of disciplines, experience in debating issues like this one, and your open-minded and respectful style of inquiry, that you made an ideal candidate.


I could write a book given an open-ended prompt like that... Any ideas/advice/etc?

I'd ask how many words they're allowing, then go from there. Don't want to write too much and have to crunch it down at the last minute.

I'd be interested to see your opponent's paper and rebuttal to your argument, as well as your argument and rebuttal.  

Write down exactly what you argued after the movie, and then format it into an article. The idea is, by the end of the article, the reader understands with no doubt that Expelled is a shameless work of propaganda and is full of lies and deceit.

I would be very sure that your writing would only be edited for grammer and punctuation, not content or length. Those rascally Christians an their quote mines and all. If it was an honest request to have you write as the voice of opposition then I would go for it. I would just beware of Trojans bearing gifts.

I would focus on a god in general rather than trying to tackle the Christian God.  There are simply too many ideas of what  the Christian God is to be able to go after that belief without knowing what the other writer believes.  You could talk about what it means to have faith and why faith is not a good tool for discerning the truth about reality. Basically, make the reader have to stop to wonder if they would believe what they do if they had not been raised to have their belief.  You don't have to actually prove a god doesn't exist, just that there is no reason to believe in one.

Quote from: "Tanker"I would be very sure that your writing would only be edited for grammer and punctuation, not conent or length. Those rascally Christians an their quote mines, and all. If it was an honest request to have you write as the voice of opposition then I would go for it. I would just beware of Trojans bearing gifts.

I echo this suggestion.  You don't want to put your time into a well written argument only to find out they pulled key points when trying to chop it  down to fit whatever they mean by a page.

I'm fairly certain that my article would not be edited. I think I intimidate them a little bit, but I have a close friend on the board.

I think the best approach is what some of you have said; "god who?"

The world around us shows no evidence of a personal god, which is the concept I think that I will attack.  It's really hard to not get off the question of "Does God exist?"  I'd love to jump into how great the scientific method is and how faith is corrosive, but it all ultimately has to be brought back to, NO there is no god.

Here's some points I'm considering stressing:

1. Start with a brief history of where the god hypothesis even came from. (Ignorance :hail: , control ).

2. Stress that we should be wary of things we wish were true; the universe, or reality, is not affected by our "beliefs" or desires, just ask any natural law like gravity...

3. Ask the reader what evidence do they see in reality that would suggest there is an afterlife, that prayer works, etc.

4. Ask the reader to put religion into a universal perspective. What would the presence of a god mean? What does the nature of reality (nature, red in tooth and claw) tell us about a god, if there were one?

5. Plead that the reader acknowledge that what they believe is in fact faith that has not been reasoned. They derive their beliefs from no observable evidence in reality.

6. Ask the reader to realize that their religious beliefs are complete accident of their birth.

EDIT: Here's some bits of what I have so far. There are no transitions by the way lol.

Does God Exist?
Having simply woken up in this splendid universe, on this beautiful planet, without any explanation whatsoever, I can understand the need for answers. Why are we here? Where did we come from? Is there a point to all of this? Since the dawn of man, our species has searched for meaning and purpose, insistent that it must be there, that our existence must be intentional.

Many people will say their faith in God is a strong, personal conviction and that they “just know He’s real”. To me however, the answer to this question is of massive consequence, and I dare not take my stance on an emotional whim. Who remembers their first love? I know I sure do. It was surreal. You have emotions you cannot explain, feelings you can’t rationalize, you are in love. Okay, enough already, I’m going to be sick. Was it really love? Probably not. We’ve all been there and the important lesson to be learned from this experience is that where we have strong emotions, we are likely to fool ourselves. Your genes have constructed your body for the sole sake of their propagation, and they have implored many incentives. I hate to explain away mother nature's magnificent magic trick, but nearly every human emotion can be traced back to a naturally selected, evolutionary benefit; compassion and aggression, love and lust, pride and shame, loyalty and defiance... faith and doubt.

I beg any person of faith to look at the observable universe, the very nature of their existence and conscious experience, and attempt to rationalize the existence of an afterlife, which is by definition to experience consciousness without one’s body. Everything you perceive in life is the result of sensory input. Your conscious experience is the collective networking of countless firing synapses within your brain. Why would anyone who understands that nature of consciousness suspect that it would be sustained without a body, without a brain? I don’t know about you, but I was dead for billions of years before I was born and I don’t remember a thing…

Talk about a loaded question!  When I hear a question like "Does god exist?", my first thought is, "What do you mean by god?"  The god of the bible is contradictory, to say the least.  Full of wrath one minute, love the next.  Xians always seem to focus on the love, don't they?  If the believers can't come to a consensus as to what god is, how can we begin to discuss whether or not it exists?

It is a rather loaded question, as if the evidence for god is so blatantly overwhelming, to doubt the existence of god is the real "bold claim".

When to me, I read as "Does the giant pink unicorn exist?" Wait... what giant pink unicorn?!!!

Quote from: "Arthur Dent"..."Does the giant pink unicorn exist?" Wait... what giant pink unicorn?!!!

I think you just wrote your article  

Well, here's my piece!!!  :hide2:  Feel free to critique. Below is the voice from the other side, of which I am to critique and give rebuttal.    

"While the majority of the world’s population may believe in God, there exists a fast-growing minority of those who do not, and with good reason. As an atheist, and former theist, I would like to offer some personal insight into why so many people outgrow faith and what it is like to approach life atheistically.

I feel it is important to first examine where the concept of God comes from. Many of you are probably familiar with the “god of the gaps” concept, in which a lack of understanding is replaced with the belief that a god is responsible for some natural phenomenon. Some of the better known gods of the gaps are mythical figures like Thor, who was invented to explain away lightning. In our educated hindsight, these particular gaps no longer exist and we find little trouble dismissing figures like Thor and Zeus as mere myth. Strangely enough, our modern religions seemed to have survived this loop hole, or rather, they  have created their own. What fundamental difference exists in our current, monotheistic religions that have given them such solidity in the minds of believers?

As a child, my faith served as a quick and easy answer to life’s mysteries, but as curiosity got the best of me, I realized that everything seemed to already have a perfectly reasonable explanation. As the gaps in my understanding were coming to a close, so too was my need for God.  But no, I was told, “God is still there. God set all of those things in motion. Give credit where credit is due.”  Wait, what? What was going on here? With nearly the whole of reality having a clear and coherent alibi, it was God that should be on trial here, not me. I turned to religious leaders in hopes of an explanation. I wanted explicit evidence of this God they were holding over my head. It was discouraging to find that the whole of the God hypothesis has been cleverly pushed outside the realm of scientific inquiry; a stubborn retreat equal to sticking one’s head in the sand. The concept of God, historically, has shifted from a band-aid for ignorance, to plea for your blind, unreasoned faith. It is a telling fact that believers are often quick to deem another’s religion as false, and yet have no reservations about confidently boasting their own faith. Richard Dawkins captures this phenomenon, and makes his claim for atheism, in his famous quote, “we are all atheists in regards to most of the gods man has ever believed in; some of us just go one god further…”

Rather than sink deeper into the tired clichés of religious debate, I would like to expound upon something more thought-provoking and constructive. While I may have lost my faith, what I have gained has been invaluable. Free from the preconceived notions of religion, I can finally approach life objectively and embrace science as a way of thinking. It is a deeply moving thing to study the cosmic progression of our universe, our biological evolution, the nature of consciousness, etc and begin to feel where you truly fit into that progression. The fact that this progression requires no intervention, no design and no purpose makes it all the more beautiful. The universe shapes and organizes itself. The universe creates its own purpose by increasing complexity and achieving self-awareness. I am talking of course about intelligent life.

From the first hydrogen atoms, to creatures capable of pondering their own existence, we find ourselves at the edge of 14 billion years of cosmic evolution. To put our part into perspective, think of a yearly calendar which starts at the Big Bang, and ends in the present. By this scale, all of human history would fit in the last 10 seconds. The sheer size of the universe is even more impressive. Our beloved Sun is just one star among some 200 billion in the Milky Way Galaxy, and there are over 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe.
 
My progression from theism into atheism has affected my life in ways I never could have imagined. My unhindered passion for knowledge, for that ultimate objective truth, has led me to some incredible realizations. I cannot help but experience these truths on an emotional, even spiritual level. As I struggle to understand and define my existence, fighting predisposition towards “meaning” and “purpose”, the universe glares back at me with stark indifference, pounding home how vast and how small, how timeless and how brief, how precious and how insignificant we are, all at once.

We are the universe, contemplating its own existence..."

===================================================================================================

"The question of God is a timeless mystery, one of astonishing depth in which I encourage and appreciate the insights of all who search for this Truth. I believe it can be answered if one searches diligently or happens to blunder upon it, as was my case. Below are four points that have helped me develop my faith, and although I don’t presume I will change anyone’s mind, I hope you find something to think about, wherever you stand.

My first witness is, naturally, one that has been around the longest: the universe. Broadly defined, it's everything from the tiniest bacterial colony growing on your dorm room floor to the Sloan Great Wall, a conglomeration of galaxies 1.37 billion light years wide! I call it Creation, because I believe it was all created. One does not have to look for gaps in evolutionary biology to find God. He is the designer of each physical law of the cosmos and the architect of every delightfully complex process that allows life to exist and stars to be born. God’s inconceivable wisdom and awesome power are displayed in the unimaginable complexity of DNA and the impossibly ideal conditions our little planet needs and has to sustain everything. Science shows us that the universe had a beginning, and that something cannot naturally come from nothing. Therefore, it is logical that a higher being outside the physical world created something into what had been nothing, and guided every supposedly random occurrence since.

Scientifically, evolutionary arguments for the origins of love, creativity, conscience, and other higher forms of thought are also unsatisfactory. Could a person’s desire to devote their life to another really be nothing but leftover herd instincts? Why do we marvel at sunsets, delight in music, and find joy in the laughter of a child? Could natural selection really give us a deep craving to know and be known? Why do humans possess a universal moral code that endures into every culture and nation traced back to earliest recorded history? Evolution alone cannot adequately answer these questions. Theology tells us God made mankind in His own image. This doesn’t mean we were made in God's physical image, because God is a spiritual being, not a physical one. Instead, Genesis 2 describes the creation of mankind’s soul, modeling God's, in which exists creativity, admiration for beauty, capacity for love, and more. It’s not a scientific explanation, but science doesn’t have an answer for love.

Thirdly, the Bible. This sacred text is revered by the faithful who have found wisdom and joy in it, and generally considered antiquated, inaccurate, and contradictory by others. Believers should study these claims of contradictions. But there is evidence for its supernatural origin that merit examination too. Written over a thousand year period by 40 different and mostly unaffiliated authors, its internal consistency is remarkable. It shows deep insight into human nature in brutal stories like Amnon and Tamar. Biblical authors often reveal surprising understanding of scientific and biological principles, especially Job and the cleanliness teachings in Exodus. And, there are hundreds of prophecies made in Scripture, many of which have come true, such as Ezekiel 26:12 (ca. 587 B.C.) that said Tyre would be destroyed and its stones and timbers thrown into the sea. History records that in 333 B.C., Alexander the Great attacked the wealthy port city and dismantled it, throwing its stones and timbers into the sea to build a bridge to the nation's island. If nothing else, this important book is worthy of honest investigation.

Finally, personal experience is the reason I can be sure about my faith. My freshman year, I was praying to God as I understood Him, and I felt a physical high, similar to but more satisfying than drug use. Since then, I have had experiences like that again and again as I follow the God of the Bible. I have seen His answers to prayer and I have heard His guiding. He has changed me and my desires: from a lost, partying kid into a passionate leader who actually enjoys prayer, the Bible, and serving. Those changes weren't from me. Think about a loved one: a parent or close friend. No matter how flawless my arguments, I could not convince you of their non-existence. You know them. The same is true for those who know God. Arguments and facts can and do alter my understanding of who He is, but they can't take His work out of my life."

I think your article was very well written. The Christan article on the other hand...

When writing the rebuttal, you should call him out on his claims about Biblical prophecies coming true, particilarly the one about Tyre. I don't know how familiar you are with it, but here is a good article about it http://davematson.edwardtbabinski.us/prophecy_tyre.html

It is actually pretty strong evidence against the Bible when you compare what was prophecied, verses what really happened.

Very well written and I like how you place great importance in helping people realize that being an atheist doesn't mean that everything is always about data and experiments.  We are able to find the beauty in this world too.

For the rebuttal you were provided, its no surprise that the "its just all so complicated" argument was used along with the "God has touched me" stance.  I guess I just don't see how it was really making an argument at all.

Thanks for the comments. I really hope they come away from the article realizing how atheism can be something they never imagined.

We atheists in particular, (discussing civily on a forum) are not atheists because we hate god, or are rebelious, etc. We're simply concerned with the truth, something that religion has miserably failed to deliver.

"excuse me theist, please step aside."

arthur, very good article.  I'm glad I'm not the one having to provide a response to the theist side...I wouldn't know where to start.  He threw complexity, prophecy, bs about evolution/love, and argument from personal experience at you all within a page's worth of text.  IMO, each of those topics requires an essay to address in any meaningful manner.

There was a 750 world limit :-/ 400 for the rebuttal.

Quote from: "Arthur Dent"There was a 750 world limit :-/ 400 for the rebuttal.

I guess you'll just have to hit on the main points briefly then encourage the readers to research the issues further.  You could even say something about it requiring more space than you have to fully address the topics.