Title: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 01:42:12 AM
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 01:42:12 AM
Hi Whitney and everyone,
In my "bible" it says that Noah lived in the Mesopotamian region a while ago and was a really smart dude. He kept measurements on the flooding of the Euphrates river. He knew that a major flooding would soon occur and commissioned his family to build a houseboat. Noah...who was a winemaker, actually went around to surrounding villages to warn his people...but they just ridiculed him. Well, you can guess what happened. There is always a grain of truth in legends.
78:7.4 The traditions of a time when water covered the whole of the earth's surface are universal. Many races harbor the story of a world-wide flood some time during past ages. The Biblical story of Noah, the ark, and the flood is an invention of the Hebrew priesthood during the Babylonian captivity. There has never been a universal flood since life was established on Urantia. The only time the surface of the earth was completely covered by water was during those Archeozoic ages before the land had begun to appear.
78:7.5 But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river's rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.
In my "bible" it says that Noah lived in the Mesopotamian region a while ago and was a really smart dude. He kept measurements on the flooding of the Euphrates river. He knew that a major flooding would soon occur and commissioned his family to build a houseboat. Noah...who was a winemaker, actually went around to surrounding villages to warn his people...but they just ridiculed him. Well, you can guess what happened. There is always a grain of truth in legends.
78:7.4 The traditions of a time when water covered the whole of the earth's surface are universal. Many races harbor the story of a world-wide flood some time during past ages. The Biblical story of Noah, the ark, and the flood is an invention of the Hebrew priesthood during the Babylonian captivity. There has never been a universal flood since life was established on Urantia. The only time the surface of the earth was completely covered by water was during those Archeozoic ages before the land had begun to appear.
78:7.5 But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river's rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Whitney on February 14, 2009, 01:56:29 AM
Post by: Whitney on February 14, 2009, 01:56:29 AM
Arie...is http://www.urantia.org/about.html#Description (http://www.urantia.org/about.html#Description) your 'bible.?
Um...how do you know anything it says is true? Sounds an awful lot like how the Book of Mormon came to be, and I think we have all seen the funny South Park episode associated with that story.
Um...how do you know anything it says is true? Sounds an awful lot like how the Book of Mormon came to be, and I think we have all seen the funny South Park episode associated with that story.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 02:32:43 PM
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 02:32:43 PM
Hi Whitney,
I would say that it's exponentially more advanced than the book of Mormon. It really isn't a normal book. It's a massive tome that weaves together science, history, and religion. How do I know what it says is true? Well, of course...the science stuff is easy to verify, there is a reader who made a website called ubthenews.com that has various reports on science topics such as Tycho's Nova, Plate Tectonics, Magnetic Sensitivity that is in the UB. In fact, he just came out with a new report on "Creating Fire," because the urantia book says humans first learned how to use fire about a million years ago. The report talks about a recent discovery that pushes back conventional science's estimate back further towards this time period.
But in relation to the unprovable stuff...there is no way to prove anything. To me, the organisation of the universe and description of divine beings just makes sense to me. Like if you could imagine the universe managed in a wonderful way...this would be it. Not a capricious and awful universe...but rather a friendly and orderly one with a host of beings working for your advancement and progress.
You can always just imagine it's a work of fiction and appreciate it that way.
2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.
2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.
I would say that it's exponentially more advanced than the book of Mormon. It really isn't a normal book. It's a massive tome that weaves together science, history, and religion. How do I know what it says is true? Well, of course...the science stuff is easy to verify, there is a reader who made a website called ubthenews.com that has various reports on science topics such as Tycho's Nova, Plate Tectonics, Magnetic Sensitivity that is in the UB. In fact, he just came out with a new report on "Creating Fire," because the urantia book says humans first learned how to use fire about a million years ago. The report talks about a recent discovery that pushes back conventional science's estimate back further towards this time period.
But in relation to the unprovable stuff...there is no way to prove anything. To me, the organisation of the universe and description of divine beings just makes sense to me. Like if you could imagine the universe managed in a wonderful way...this would be it. Not a capricious and awful universe...but rather a friendly and orderly one with a host of beings working for your advancement and progress.
You can always just imagine it's a work of fiction and appreciate it that way.
2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.
2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 14, 2009, 04:19:14 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 14, 2009, 04:19:14 PM
Quote from: "Arie"It's a massive tome that weaves together science, history, and religion.
So, it's a Neal Stephenson book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Neal%20Stephenson), basically.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: SSY on February 14, 2009, 06:11:51 PM
Post by: SSY on February 14, 2009, 06:11:51 PM
You say there is no way to prove anything, that is just plain incorrect.
Even you acknowledge that, when you say the scientific stuff is easily verifiable, you can't have it both ways. What book are you talking about by the way? And if it is so important and advanced, then how can it be truly appreciated as a work of fiction? Whats the point of reading it like a fairytale over any other fairytale like Harry Potter or The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
Even you acknowledge that, when you say the scientific stuff is easily verifiable, you can't have it both ways. What book are you talking about by the way? And if it is so important and advanced, then how can it be truly appreciated as a work of fiction? Whats the point of reading it like a fairytale over any other fairytale like Harry Potter or The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 06:27:24 PM
Post by: Arie on February 14, 2009, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: "SSY"Whats the point of reading it like a fairytale over any other fairytale like Harry Potter or The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
Well, read it for a little bit chap and you'll have your answer.
In my opinion, it is a lot more meaningful than Harry Potter. When I referred to imagining it as a fiction...I was simply trying to have you see it with an open mind, that's all. But yeah...it can't be "truly appreciated" unless read with some trust. When I say it isn't verifiable, I'm talking about a lot of the other concepts in the book...the nonscientific, nonhistorical aspects. Such as the portraiture of a great variety of beings and the vast organization of the universe.The book isn't for everyone...but a few may find it rewarding.
81: 2.5 "The ancients sought a supernatural explanation for all natural phenomena not within the range of their personal comprehension; and many moderns continue to do this. The depersonalization of so-called natural phenomena has required ages, and it is not yet completed. But the frank, honest, and fearless search for true causes gave birth to modern science: It turned astrology into astronomy, alchemy into chemistry, and magic into medicine."
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: pedricero matao on February 14, 2009, 06:32:35 PM
Post by: pedricero matao on February 14, 2009, 06:32:35 PM
Does anyone really take that extraterrestrial stuff for real?
On the origin of life:
Miller - Urey experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment)
Really, I don't see the problem about "life" and the universe as we know it being a series of coincidences. Just (try to) watch those loco electrons
do your quantum mechanics dude!
On the origin of life:
Miller - Urey experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment)
Really, I don't see the problem about "life" and the universe as we know it being a series of coincidences. Just (try to) watch those loco electrons
do your quantum mechanics dude!
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 14, 2009, 07:49:29 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 14, 2009, 07:49:29 PM
Quote from: "pedricero matao"Does anyone really take that extraterrestrial stuff for real?
Nobody with any brains, anyway.
There's obviously life somewhere else in the universe. Is it intelligent? Who knows. Has it been here? Not unless you count the building blocks that came here on comets and meteors a long, long time ago. For any intelligent life out there to get here it would need to be either: a) immortal or have very, very, very long lifespans, or b) develop travel a la Event Horizon (travel that doesn't involve moving distances, merely "skipping" through space). Either way, if they get here, we're screwed.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: G.ENIGMA on February 15, 2009, 12:54:15 AM
Post by: G.ENIGMA on February 15, 2009, 12:54:15 AM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Either way, if they get here, we're screwed.
So, even though Valentines day is over, there's still a glimmer of hope for some of us
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: SSY on February 15, 2009, 01:50:03 AM
Post by: SSY on February 15, 2009, 01:50:03 AM
Quote from: "Arie"Quote from: "SSY"Whats the point of reading it like a fairytale over any other fairytale like Harry Potter or The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
Well, read it for a little bit chap and you'll have your answer.
The book isn't for everyone...but a few may find it rewarding.
81: 2.5 "The ancients sought a supernatural explanation for all natural phenomena not within the range of their personal comprehension; and many moderns continue to do this. The depersonalization of so-called natural phenomena has required ages, and it is not yet completed. But the frank, honest, and fearless search for true causes gave birth to modern science: It turned astrology into astronomy, alchemy into chemistry, and magic into medicine."
I fail to see why it would be more meaningful than Harry Potter, please enlighten me as to why you think it is? If there is no evidence to support any of it, why do you beleive it is true?
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 02:28:15 PM
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: "SSY"I fail to see why it would be more meaningful than Harry Potter, please enlighten me as to why you think it is? If there is no evidence to support any of it, why do you beleive it is true?
Well, I think it is more meaningful than Harry Potter because it describes God and his inhabited universe. It talks in detail about the afterlife and our progression through the universe. It has a very meaningful description of Jesus' life on earth 2k years ago including his childhood years.
111:4.2 Meanings are derived from a combination of recognition and understanding. Meanings are nonexistent in a wholly sensory or material world. Meanings and values are only perceived in the inner or supermaterial spheres of human experience.
I never said there is no evidence to support any of it...there is a lot of evidence of numerous things in relation to science and history. Go to ubthenews.com and there are many reports correlating the UB with various scientific discoveries. But a lot of the subjects containing God and a variety of divine beings...there is no physical evidence, it is my belief and personal experience.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 04:36:01 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 04:36:01 PM
Quote from: "Arie"But a lot of the subjects containing God and a variety of divine beings...there is no physical evidence, it is my belief and personal experience.
My belief and personal experience describe the world as a giant, spiritual, cosmic blancmange. Maybe I should write a book about it...
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"My belief and personal experience describe the world as a giant, spiritual, cosmic blancmange. Maybe I should write a book about it...
Well, obviously the authors who wrote the book do not state they just made it up. And I believe they did not as well as many other intelligent people. They speak authoritatively on many different subjects. Anyways...you also have no evidence that it isn't true.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: Ihateyoumike on February 15, 2009, 06:18:18 PM
Post by: Ihateyoumike on February 15, 2009, 06:18:18 PM
My question is, how many threads are gonna get jacked with Arie's preaching about... well, whatever he's preaching.
Last time I checked the title of this thread, it said "Noah's ark...the great myth." Not, "some guy wrote a book which I believe in and would like to preach it's nonsense to a group of free-thinkers."
Please, Arie, join the discussions. Do not preach your book to us. Please stop posting those random quotes from your book in every thread. If you want to preach about your book, please make a thread of your own in the Religion section, and stop thread-jacking every other thread to try and get whatever point it is you're trying to make across.
I'm sorry if this post is taking on a harsh tone, but this needs to be pointed out. I hope it does not continue, because I'm pretty sure preaching is against forum rules, especially while thread-jacking to do so.
Last time I checked the title of this thread, it said "Noah's ark...the great myth." Not, "some guy wrote a book which I believe in and would like to preach it's nonsense to a group of free-thinkers."
Please, Arie, join the discussions. Do not preach your book to us. Please stop posting those random quotes from your book in every thread. If you want to preach about your book, please make a thread of your own in the Religion section, and stop thread-jacking every other thread to try and get whatever point it is you're trying to make across.
I'm sorry if this post is taking on a harsh tone, but this needs to be pointed out. I hope it does not continue, because I'm pretty sure preaching is against forum rules, especially while thread-jacking to do so.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: SSY on February 15, 2009, 06:33:28 PM
Post by: SSY on February 15, 2009, 06:33:28 PM
I feel my questions are partly reponsible for the thread jacking, I am sorry. Start a new thread and we will discuss it there.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: "SSY"I feel my questions are partly reponsible for the thread jacking, I am sorry. Start a new thread and we will discuss it there.
Done and done.
Here ya go. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2748)
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: Whitney on February 15, 2009, 07:13:18 PM
Post by: Whitney on February 15, 2009, 07:13:18 PM
I also split this from the main Noah's Ark thread.
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: "Whitney"I also split this from the main Noah's Ark thread.Thankee.
Quote from: "Arie"Well, obviously the authors who wrote the book do not state they just made it up. And I believe they did not as well as many other intelligent people. They speak authoritatively on many different subjects. Anyways...you also have no evidence that it isn't true.Well, obviously. If they stated they just made it up, it'd be kinda hard to sell as non-fiction. A person who truly believes he is Napoleon can authoritatively speak on what it feels like to be Napoleon. Doesn't make it worth anything.
No, I don't have any proof that the universe isn't just one giant, cosmic, spiritual blancmange. I do, however, have my powers of reason and deduction which tell me that it's a stupid idea.
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 10:57:10 PM
Post by: Arie on February 15, 2009, 10:57:10 PM
I was never preaching. I originally just shared my ideas and subsequently answered member's progressively hostile questions, ridicule, and insinuations. I'm done with this forum. On a cold dark night, years from now...pick up the urantia book with a humble heart and see for yourself with real eyes.
P1118:1, 102:0.1 To the unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident. His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter. No display of energy nor expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave. The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man's only reward for living and toiling under the temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good.
P1118:2, 102:0.2 But such is not man's end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God's children on earth.
P1118:3, 102:0.3 This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.
P1118:1, 102:0.1 To the unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident. His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter. No display of energy nor expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave. The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man's only reward for living and toiling under the temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good.
P1118:2, 102:0.2 But such is not man's end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God's children on earth.
P1118:3, 102:0.3 This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 11:09:21 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 15, 2009, 11:09:21 PM
Dude, coming out of nowhere, plopping down a dozen "verses" from your version of the Bible in threads that have nothing to do with it, and you don't call that preaching? If not preaching, then most definitely selling.
Didn't you read the sign? No soliciting. Also, stay off the grass.
By the way, just because a book falls in line with the way you want to see the world doesn't make it special. I agree with some of the philosophy in Fight Club, but I recognize it for what it is.
Didn't you read the sign? No soliciting. Also, stay off the grass.
By the way, just because a book falls in line with the way you want to see the world doesn't make it special. I agree with some of the philosophy in Fight Club, but I recognize it for what it is.
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: Whitney on February 15, 2009, 11:44:54 PM
Post by: Whitney on February 15, 2009, 11:44:54 PM
Quote from: "Arie"I was never preaching. I originally just shared my ideas and subsequently answered member's progressively hostile questions, ridicule, and insinuations.
Yes, you were preaching. You came to this forum and started posting verses from your chosen holy text with the intent to try to expose people to your views (and in doing so derailed one of the topics). The reason some members may have not responded so kindly is because your "answers" were that you have no reason to believe in what you believe so they don't have to accept it but should read your holy book anyway. Basically, you annoyed people into (mild) hostility. This is why I sent you the pm earlier today explaining that free thinkers get annoyed when not provided evidence or reason and reminding you that preaching is discouraged on the forum.
QuoteI'm done with this forum.
Ok, bye. I think you will find that we did give you a lot more freedom than most atheist forums will allow religious people.
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: Will on February 16, 2009, 05:06:49 AM
Post by: Will on February 16, 2009, 05:06:49 AM
Arie, maybe you can answer this: What's the discussion here? You said something about Noah, and then started quoting verses from your spiritual text. Then you quoted more. Then some more. Then there was a burden of proof fallacy. Then you seem to have no idea why we accuse you of preaching?
BTW, curiosityandthecat: FEED ME A STRAY CAT.
BTW, curiosityandthecat: FEED ME A STRAY CAT.
Title: Re: Noah's ark...the great myth.
Post by: SSY on February 16, 2009, 09:08:09 AM
Post by: SSY on February 16, 2009, 09:08:09 AM
Quote from: "Arie"Quote from: "SSY"I fail to see why it would be more meaningful than Harry Potter, please enlighten me as to why you think it is? If there is no evidence to support any of it, why do you beleive it is true?
Well, I think it is more meaningful than Harry Potter because it describes God and his inhabited universe. It talks in detail about the afterlife and our progression through the universe. It has a very meaningful description of Jesus' life on earth 2k years ago including his childhood years.
Just because it talks about things you think are important (arguably, talking about a whole hidden world, that disobeys all know laws of physics and follows the life of one very courageous young fellow could be seen as just as important) does not mean it has any meaning, becuase there is no guarantee it is correct or factual.
Why would have meaning if non of it is true? If you think it is true, why do you think it is true? What evidence to you have to support your reasoning?
Title: Re: Urantia Noah's ark...the small myth. (Split Topic)
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 16, 2009, 02:39:15 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on February 16, 2009, 02:39:15 PM
Quote from: "Will"Arie, maybe you can answer this: What's the discussion here? You said something about Noah, and then started quoting verses from your spiritual text. Then you quoted more. Then some more. Then there was a burden of proof fallacy. Then you seem to have no idea why we accuse you of preaching?
BTW, curiosityandthecat: FEED ME A STRAY CAT.
Do you like Phil Collins?