Happy Atheist Forum

OK, so you want proof your bible is wrong, so here's one no believer has EVER been able to deal with:

It says some interesting things in your bible:

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have Faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that these things he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. " (Mark 11:22-23)

"And all things, whatsoever you ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive. " (Matthew 21:21)
 
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatever ye shall ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask anything in my name, I will do it. " (John 14:12-14)

"Verily I say unto you, if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them. " (Matthew 18:18-19)

In essence the point is simple ... if you (the believer) pray hard enough you can have anything you want, your god will give it to you.

The challenge is simple enough, should be easy (a walk in the park Kazanski), piece of piss (as we say in the UK) ... convert me!

It's not that hard is it? According to John 14 your lord will do whatever you ask in his name. I'm not asking you to call up the elements, throw a mountain into the sea, feed 5,000 with a few fish and loaves, walk on water, or find your tax money in a fish. I'm only asking one simple tiny little thing ...

Convert me!

Come on, it can't be that difficult can it ... your bible (what you have based this entire thread on) is correct isn't it? And John 14 says that you can achieve pretty much anything in your lord's name ... the promises of Jesus are clear and unmistakable:

Convert me!

"All things you ask in prayer, you shall receive. "

Get down on your bible thumping knees, pray for my soul and convert me to Christianity!

Since the Bible is never wrong, and Jesus is never wrong, it should be an easy piece of work to convert me, right?

So, do it!

If you cannot, then a belief that the bible is correct in all respects (and quite possibly your Jesus and your God) MUST be wrong.

If by, say, the end of one month I have not converted (or been struck down by a bolt of lightening, the wrath of your god or whatever) I think we must conclude that a belief that your Bible is correct in all respects is wrong, Jesus screwed up and people were putting hopeful words into the mouth of a potentially non-existent god.

Let the contest begin.

Now, get down on your knees and pray up a storm!
Pray!
Believe and pray!
Believe and pray in the name of your lord!

I think it fair that you (Minstrelofc in particular) reply to this and accept the challenge (giving a start date) or explain why you are unable to do so.

I'll check in later to see if you're "man enough" (no idea what you are) for the challenge.

Kyu

Please remove the dying clause, we wouln't want you to have an unfortunate "accident" when walking past your friendly local church.

Quote from: "SSY"Please remove the dying clause, we wouln't want you to have an unfortunate "accident" when walking past your friendly local church.

Nah mate ... I'm entirely happy to risk the supposed wrath of this cartoon character these idiots called "God".

So, Minstrelofc, are you up for it or are you chicken?

Kyu

Does this one not fall under the whole "man has free will" thing?? I figure thats the argument they are going to come back with.

I'd pray for something much clearer than that. How about praying I die? Not *waves hands about* vaguely sometime in the future. Pray in earnest that I will die by the end of the week. Look at it this way. If I don't post again on this thread by Sunday midnight I'm dead you've proved faith "can move mountains" and you will convert all these atheists to your god and have one less to deal with to boot!  

Or.. if your morality wont allow that. How about praying that the tree outside my house grows apples? Its not an apple tree, I should point that out... but if you are willing to take on the challenge, I'm willing to take a shot of it this week and give you a month of sincere prayer to achive it. You cant say fairer than that surely?

What you're going to get is rhetoric, not reason. It's always the same.

Quote from: "Xalle"Does this one not fall under the whole "man has free will" thing?? I figure thats the argument they are going to come back with.

Maybe ... I've done it before and the first argument the guy came up with was:

"I accept your little challenge to make you to be one of God's child but you had forgotten that (before you challenged me you were already challenged by God) God already set up rules and process of becoming His child. Here is God's rules: Believe God and accept Him as your Lord and Saviour and He will make you His child." Rev. 3:20, John 1:12" to  

To which my response was:

"Oi Dipsh**! I had forgotten nothing whatsoever and you are either very devious or very stupid ... or both. I don't believe in your god or any other so I don't accept the existence of any rules and quotes from YOUR bible don't change that. For your so-called "acceptance" to be true would constitute me making me a believer ... the challenge was that you (with no cooperation from me) have to make me (a committed and militant atheist) a believer. You may well have accepted a challenge but it's got fuck all to do with the one I offered ... so, do you accept the challenge as I laid it down or do you admit defeat?"

Quote from: "Xalle"I'd pray for something much clearer than that. How about praying I die? Not *waves hands about* vaguely sometime in the future. Pray in earnest that I will die by the end of the week. Look at it this way. If I don't post again on this thread by Sunday midnight I'm dead you've proved faith "can move mountains" and you will convert all these atheists to your god and have one less to deal with to boot!

Can't do that ... I'd give SSY a heartattack!

Quote from: "Xalle"Or.. if your morality wont allow that. How about praying that the tree outside my house grows apples? Its not an apple tree, I should point that out... but if you are willing to take on the challenge, I'm willing to take a shot of it this week and give you a month of sincere prayer to achive it. You cant say fairer than that surely?

That's not a bad one but remember, from my POV, there is no argument, no conceivable force that I believe will make me genuinely believe in such pathetic fairy tales slo I think I'm fairy safe ... and besides, Minstrelofc's silence on this one tells me more than all the wittering any theist can come up with.

Kyu

Kyu, you are BRILLIANT!!! I had thought of something similar, but it has been too long since I've opened a bible and I didn't feel like searching for the verses I would need.

Now...where in hell did Minstrelofc go... look, I found him ->  

I'm not dead.

There are no apples on my tree yet. Pity.. I like apples. I could have made a couple of nice apple pies... apple sauce... apple juice...

Still.. he's got plenty of time.

Wow, I'm away for 3 days, and people start begging to be converted? What a great God I serve!  ;) )

You're saying it's a personal choice to believe something without evidence?  I totally agree.  I also refuse.  It makes no sense.  For example:  If I tell someone that their spouse is cheating on them, they will require evidence.  Why?  Because the claim is extraordinary.  It doesn't occur on a regular basis.  It's not something that one can readily take for granted.  Another example:  If I say that there's a killer plague loose in Europe and I'm the only one that can stop it, people will require evidence.  In that case, I would most likely be suffering from a mental disorder.  Do you see how fine the line is between faith and delusion?  In the words of Nietzsche,

QuoteA casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

I have a question, if people don't mind obliging me. God loves everyone, according to the Bible. God loves me, regardless of my agnostic atheism. God can see that I am a good person, I treat other people with respect and dignity, and I assist those in need selflessly. I even do my best to keep an open mind about things that I feel a cognitive bias against, including religion. I respect my father and mother (authority), I don't kill, I don't commit adultery in any meaningful way (I don't pursue or engage people in relationships, and likewise I don't indulge people when I am in a relationship), I don't steal, I don't lie, and I'm not really a jealous person.

Am I going to go to hell, from your perspective?
If no, why wouldn't someone who disobeys the first three commandments knowingly and continually be punished? It's pretty black and white in the Bible.
If yes, what's the real value in salvation? If good people are going to suffer for simply doing their best to live good lives, what does that say about salvation?

Will, being a former fundamentalist Christian myself, I can say from experience that through the worldview of Christianity, what you think about salvation doesn't matter to Christians.  God made it and God's sovereign.  God's going to do his thing no matter what you think about it just because he's God.  If he listened to what you think, he wouldn't be sovereign.  But that raises the issue of prayer...

Quote from: "Will"I have a question, if people don't mind obliging me. God loves everyone, according to the Bible. God loves me, regardless of my agnostic atheism. God can see that I am a good person, I treat other people with respect and dignity, and I assist those in need selflessly. I even do my best to keep an open mind about things that I feel a cognitive bias against, including religion. I respect my father and mother (authority), I don't kill, I don't commit adultery in any meaningful way (I don't pursue or engage people in relationships, and likewise I don't indulge people when I am in a relationship), I don't steal, I don't lie, and I'm not really a jealous person.

Am I going to go to hell, from your perspective?
If no, why wouldn't someone who disobeys the first three commandments knowingly and continually be punished? It's pretty black and white in the Bible.
If yes, what's the real value in salvation? If good people are going to suffer for simply doing their best to live good lives, what does that say about salvation?

Will, I don't know if you want your fellow hellbound brethren and sistren to answer, but I have answers from two perspectives, and both are bad news for you.  :unsure:

Baptist (or fundie), whether Independent or Southern Baptist: If you didn't confess your sins and verbally accept JC into your "heart" as your personal lord and saviour, you're a goner. The ironic thing is, that the real fundie types say that when you do that, "Your name is written in the Book of Eternal Life", or "The Lamb's Book of Life", and nothing can ever remove it. What that amounts to is a free ticket to heaven, even if you become an atheist or commit crimes, or lead a life of sin. Go figure.

So, you're screwed, essentially.

Fortunately for me, (signing) "I've got a Golden Ticket, yes I've got a Golden Ticket....."
I recommend them. They're cheap, involve a quick bath, wafer-type meal, and a few "I'm sorry for doing (blank)", and you're good to go. Extra bonus is they last forever!

So get your Golden Ticket now!

Quote from: "minstrelofc"snip

I am so surprised, I was expecting as straightforward and direct answer like you normally get in a situation like this.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"This is the main reason for my rejection of your challenge. I believe it is completely, 100% WRONG to force my beliefs upon other people. Therefore, I cannot believe that God would do such a thing, and (of course) cannot pray expecting Him to do something that is wrong.

So, why does god say that you'll burn in hell for etenity if you don't believe in him? Forcing your beliefs upon someone else is wrong but using emotional blackmail to obtain the same result is ok?

Quote from: "karadan"So, why does god say that you'll burn in hell for etenity if you don't believe in him? Forcing your beliefs upon someone else is wrong but using emotional blackmail to obtain the same result is ok?

If you don't believe in God, why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell, there's nothing worrying about it.

On the other hand, if you believe in God, then you believe that you're not going to hell, so once again there's nothing to worry about.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"

Quote from: "karadan"So, why does god say that you'll burn in hell for etenity if you don't believe in him? Forcing your beliefs upon someone else is wrong but using emotional blackmail to obtain the same result is ok?

If you don't believe in God, why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell, there's nothing worrying about it.

On the other hand, if you believe in God, then you believe that you're not going to hell, so once again there's nothing to worry about.

Then why do christians always love telling people like me that i'm going to burn in hell? Face it, it is just another recruitment tool for your cult. Some people aren't as lucky as me in that, they aren't as strong in their convictions as i am. The people who sit on the fence or even try to shed the insanity of religion are forced to withold their own freedom of thought because of the promise of eternal pain and turmoil in hell. That is emotional blackmail. That is forcing your beliefs upon someone else.

Quote from: "karadan"Then why do christians always love telling people like me that i'm going to burn in hell? Face it, it is just another recruitment tool for your cult. Some people aren't as lucky as me in that, they aren't as strong in their convictions as i am. The people who sit on the fence or even try to shed the insanity of religion are forced to withold their own freedom of thought because of the promise of eternal pain and turmoil in hell. That is emotional blackmail. That is forcing your beliefs upon someone else.

I don't think Christians should do that. Those who do, I agree, are doing it wrong.

I do not recall any cases in the NT where burning in hell is being used as a recruitment tool. (ex-Christians, feel free to contradict me   )

Quote from: "minstrelofc"

Quote from: "karadan"Then why do christians always love telling people like me that i'm going to burn in hell? Face it, it is just another recruitment tool for your cult. Some people aren't as lucky as me in that, they aren't as strong in their convictions as i am. The people who sit on the fence or even try to shed the insanity of religion are forced to withold their own freedom of thought because of the promise of eternal pain and turmoil in hell. That is emotional blackmail. That is forcing your beliefs upon someone else.

I don't think Christians should do that. Those who do, I agree, are doing it wrong.

I do not recall any cases in the NT where burning in hell is being used as a recruitment tool. (ex-Christians, feel free to contradict me   )

The most common recruitment tool employed is the "Roman Road". It is what "led me to christ" way back when, had been used for a long time prior, and is still used today by many (mostly protestant-based) churches and evangelicals.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/the-roman-road.htm (http://www.allaboutgod.com/the-roman-road.htm)

In it, there is Romans 3:23, 5:8, and 6:23, where we are told we are separated from god and that the penalty for the separation is death (via permanent separation from god in the afterlife, ala hell). Not one denimination I know of denies the reality of eternal separation from god if you are not "saved". How they name it and define it are all slightly different, ranging in a literal, physical location of eternal pain and torment to a simple "lack of the presence" of god. But they are all saying that those places are hell.

I'm too rushed to cite more right now, but there are many more citations, although the interpretations vary a huge amount.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "minstrelofc"

Quote from: "karadan"So, why does god say that you'll burn in hell for etenity if you don't believe in him? Forcing your beliefs upon someone else is wrong but using emotional blackmail to obtain the same result is ok?

If you don't believe in God, why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell, there's nothing worrying about it.

On the other hand, if you believe in God, then you believe that you're not going to hell, so once again there's nothing to worry about.

Then why do christians always love telling people like me that i'm going to burn in hell? Face it, it is just another recruitment tool for your cult. Some people aren't as lucky as me in that, they aren't as strong in their convictions as i am. The people who sit on the fence or even try to shed the insanity of religion are forced to withold their own freedom of thought because of the promise of eternal pain and turmoil in hell. That is emotional blackmail. That is forcing your beliefs upon someone else.

Not all christians are the get-in-your-face type, as demonstrated by minstrel. But the ones who are sure seem to make up for it, don't they?

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Wow, I'm away for 3 days, and people start begging to be converted? What a great God I serve!  ;) )

That is exactly the answer I would give as a christian, in this situation. That's one of the best responses I've seen in the forum for ages on this topic. No, I am not just pandering to minstrel!  

I believe his answer is the only sensible one for a christian to take in this situation. It is, in my opinion, the right attitude to have for christians.

I think it's important to note that atheists don't need to be shown how to be Christian.

I note however, that the "easy" option was taken however.

The challenge addressed was the one that could be tiwsted. "god gave free will"... "I think its wrong to force my beliefs on people"... the option of showing faith working through my apple tree.. or rather lack of apple tree was conveniently ignored.

The whole other problem this challenge raises are things like the fundi christians who pray for the closing of Abortion Clinics or the like. Sincere (although I do believe completely mental) people, "strong in their faith" praying vehemently with all their hearts and.... Zip. Nada. Nothing.

Funny... I was going to ask do none of these things make you doubt for a moment. But then I thought.. maybe I should just point out that in the end even Christ himself had doubts. Makes you think no?