Happy Atheist Forum

I'm sick of hearing about original sin.  It's one of the most rotten pieces of abuse that religion levels at its victims.  I was discussing baptism with someone not that long ago.  She is of the opinion that a child must be baptized as soon as possible because otherwise, if the child dies he will go to Hell.  My response was that children are born innocent.  She replied that we are all born sinners.  I stopped the conversation with a casual, smartass remark.

"So, is it the infernal hiccuping or the kicking in the womb which counts as sin?"

I just couldn't continue the conversation with her.  She believes that even her own children start out as pieces of crap that need redemption.  I look at a baby and see beauty, innocence, and potential.  She looks at a baby and sees a sinner.  There's no common ground there.

Original sin is the ultimate "gotcha". Even if, from the time you were born, you never hurt anyone or anything, you're still guilty because two fictitious characters that supposedly you descend from had some fruit they were told to stay away from.

One of the most important tenants of justice developed over the past 1000 years is that a child cannot be punished for the sins of his or her parent. If your father commits murder, you are not in any way responsible. Original sin turns that virtue on it's ear and basically says "I don't care if you didn't do anything wrong... someone did therefore you're guilty."

Yeah, I've always found this to be another one of those things that makes Christianity so unappealing. Why would anyone choose to indulge in such needless self-loathing? Still, not all sects see it quite the same way; when I was young my mom attended evangelical and non-demoninational churches which didn't baptize babies because 1)the babies were innocent and 2)only a person who could understand baptism was allowed to choose and recieve it. They did believe that humans are born into a "fallen state" becasue of Adam and Eve, and would eventually grow up to be sinners, but did not believe that you had to be water baptized to be "saved" nor did they beleive that babies and children went to hell. Of course, I was never able to get a straight answer about when a child became eligible for hell, but I got the impression it was around puberty (naturally )

All people are born sinners and unbapatized babies go straight to Hell....

How a person could think that way about babies and still believe in the god of the Bile (using my sorella's term for 'bible') makes no sense.

Oh and if these same people really do believe that (1) all people are born sinners and (2) God thinks sinners are worthy of death, then why don't they become vehement supporters of abortion clinics on every two street corners? Cleanse the world of sin, one fetus at a time!

Babies are beautiful, innocent, precious, worthy of great care, and they do not violate anyone's human rights.

Quote from: "gwyn428"All people are born sinners and unbapatized babies go straight to Hell....

How a person could think that way about babies and still believe in the god of the Bile (using my sorella's term for 'bible') makes no sense.

Oh and if these same people really do believe that (1) all people are born sinners and (2) God thinks sinners are worthy of death, then why don't they become vehement supporters of abortion clinics on every two street corners? Cleanse the world of sin, one fetus at a time!

Babies are beautiful, innocent, precious, worthy of great care, and they do not violate anyone's human rights.

Wow, I never thought of that argument...interesting thought. If you actually said that to some god-fearing human I'm almost certain they would have a heart attack. And yes, everybody so far is right in my opinion, babies are beautiful and as innocent as can be!

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I'm sick of hearing about original sin.  It's one of the most rotten pieces of abuse that religion levels at its victims.  I was discussing baptism with someone not that long ago.  She is of the opinion that a child must be baptized as soon as possible because otherwise, if the child dies he will go to Hell.  My response was that children are born innocent.  She replied that we are all born sinners.  I stopped the conversation with a casual, smartass remark.

"So, is it the infernal hiccuping or the kicking in the womb which counts as sin?"

I just couldn't continue the conversation with her.  She believes that even her own children start out as pieces of crap that need redemption.  I look at a baby and see beauty, innocence, and potential.  She looks at a baby and sees a sinner.  There's no common ground there.

Is there any atheist that hasn't had this conversation?!  When I pointed out how horrible the concept of original is, she tried to make it sound like baptism is just an equivalent  of a rabbit's foot. It just magically keeps the baby "safe"

Babies are innocent... and cook up quite nicely with a dry spice rub and some aromatics.  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Babies are innocent... and cook up quite nicely with a dry spice rub and some aromatics.  

And even quicker in the microwave!

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Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"And even quicker in the microwave!

Yeah, but I find that dries them out. Plus you don't get that nice smokey flavor of a grill.

Well, the best way to serve baby is, of course, to put them in a crockpot on low for 12 hours.  They're very tender and juicy that way!

Quote from: "Faithless"Well, the best way to serve baby is, of course, to put them in a crockpot on low for 12 hours.  They're very tender and juicy that way!

Nah, you're all wrong. Any sushi lover knows baby is best served raw. Baby tartare is the way to go.

Ihateyoumike: That's the funniest picture I've seen in a while. And the direction the discussion has taken in the last few posts of a thread called "Babies are Innocent!" is funny, too. It should be changed to "Babies are Succulent!"

It's really tempting to jump in head first with dead baby jokes. Really tempting.

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A baby ceviche is good, too, though.

I damn near swallowed my tongue laughing at the ceviche!!  

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Babies are so innocent, he does not expect a thing!

Ok, that picture of a baby in a microwave isn't funny. Some evil and twisted woman actually did that and her child was burned!!  

Quote from: "gwyn428"Ok, that picture of a baby in a microwave isn't funny. Some evil and twisted woman actually did that and her child was burned!!  ;) )

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"That's the funniest picture I've seen in a while. And the direction the discussion has taken in the last few posts of a thread called "Babies are Innocent!" is funny, too. It should be changed to "Babies are Succulent!"

It's interesting how humour varies ... as a parent I found it quite offensive. Yet still I believe it is my responsibility to guarantee the rights of the people who make these things to be dicks  

Kyu

So many of you said "babies are innocent".  Interesting.  So, in light of that opinion you take the nurture stance in the nature vs nurture argument.

Quote from: "VanReal"So many of you said "babies are innocent".  Interesting.  So, in light of that opinion you take the nurture stance in the nature vs nurture argument.

I lean more towards nurture but IMO both play a part.  Babies don't have enough brain power yet to be anything other than innocent, or without conscious harmful intent.  I'm sure a lot is hardwired but moral judgments can't really be applied to instinctual behaviors.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "VanReal"So many of you said "babies are innocent".  Interesting.  So, in light of that opinion you take the nurture stance in the nature vs nurture argument.

I lean more towards nurture but IMO both play a part.  Babies don't have enough brain power yet to be anything other than innocent, or without conscious harmful intent.  I'm sure a lot is hardwired but moral judgments can't really be applied to instinctual behaviors.

I agree, and can even say I have much different moral values now than I did even in my teens and 20s, but a lot of my thinking hasn't changed, kind of part of the brain I suppose.  I just couldn't comment on the whole "babies must be baptized bit" because it really is ridiculous, and I see it as more of a way to maintain control over the parents...don't want them straying from the church when this new life and responsibilty starts.  My grandma mentions this to me every now and again because my son isn't baptized of course, and I just say "well he seems to be doing okay".  Sometimes it's easier to just brush it off, this kind of thought is hard to argue because it's just not based in common sense.

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This guy is obviously a terrible sinner. Oh, the shame of being born. He kicked a lot in the womb, too. I don't think Hell could hold him.

I think that estrogen spike just ruined a few dozen brain cells.  Damn you, ovaries!