Happy Atheist Forum

My father is an atheist who grew up in a devout Jewish household, and my mother is a firm believer in God but without any affiliation to a church or denomination. She was raised as a Christian but her parents only took her to church on Easter and Christmas. My grandmother (my mother's mother) lost her faith as a teenager when her pastor and a woman from their congregation were found murdered after it had been discovered they were having an affair. Interestingly, this is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the 20th century. (I'm sure you can find more info about it online. I don't know what they call it though.) Anyway, that shook my grandmother's faith and she stopped going to church after that.

As a result of my parents' mixed-faith marriage (and my father's distaste for religion) I was raised almost entirely without religion. Still, my mom liked talk about God sometimes and at least keep me interested in the topic; but she thought it was important for me to make up my own mind. She never pushed the subject or tried to sway my beliefs. She just wanted me to have the knowledge, if not the faith. In retrospect, I appreciate that very much.

My dad and I never really talked about it, but as I got older I found myself having conversations with him about the horrors of organized religion and its bloody history; mostly because I developed the same distaste for it he has. So our conversations about religion tended to be more agreeable and less philosophical. But more often than that we'd talk about the mysteries of the universe - but without the use of God because, well, neither of us consider God a reasonable conclusion. It's not that we are non-believers, in that we're actively denying the existence of a creator; it's simply not part of the equation. It's like upon reaching the conclusion that there's no stork, 'the birds and the bees' doesn't become a theory of non-stork procreation. The stork is just no longer a part of the equation. I wish more people of faith understood that aethism isn't a denial of the existence of God, but simply a conclusion that doesn't require a mystical explanation. God has nothing to do with it. It's an entirely different set of ideas that do not require a creator to be valid. It's just a different perspective of life and the universe, everything within it, and everything else. If more religious people understood this perhaps our culture would not be so wary of atheism.

Which leads me to the reason I stumbled across this forum in the first place. After watching President Obama's inaugural speech I was a little unsure how to feel about his use of the word "non-believers." While I greatly appreciate his acknowledgment of atheists and agnostics as regular people, and not narcassistic heathens as so many people seem to believe, I didn't particularly like being called a "non-believer." It implies that God is a foregone conclusion and we're simply denying "His" existence. It implies that we're wrong, but it's ok because it's a free country and unbelievers are tolerated here. I understand I may be alone in this. I just wish he would have used the words "atheists and agnostics." But I do appreciate the hand he extended to us with that statement; and I understand that he - being a religious man - might find it difficult to understand what exactly we believe. It was quite a gesture though! I hadn't fully realized our lack of representation until our new President mentioned us, and the pundits went berserk.

We truly are hated in this country, aren't we? I don't understand why. I don't hate Christian people. I have no intention of hurting them or stealing from them. And they're the ones with the book that tells them how to be good! We don't have a book! Yet somehow we manage to live by the same moral code they do. And atheists have never persecuted anyone for their beliefs. Yet we're considered untrustworthy! Why is that?

Anyway, to make a long post even longer: Hi everyone. Glad to be here.  

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I wish more people of faith understood that aethism isn't a denial of the existence of God, but simply a conclusion that doesn't require a mystical explanation. God has nothing to do with it. It's an entirely different set of ideas that do not require a creator to be valid. It's just a different perspective of life and the universe, everything within it, and everything else.

I absolutely agree with this statement. Atheism is simply the discarding of a supernaturally based belief system of our origins for an ever evolving, scientifically driven, pursuit of the truth.

Anyway, welcome Aerlinn! I think you will enjoy this forum as much as I have. Always good to have new insights.  

I called my mom and asked about the murder at her mother's church. It's called the Hall-Mills murder.

Hall was the reverend. Mills was the choir leader.

Just in case anyone was interested.  

Very, very well put!  Much welcome to the forum.  I love how your mom, even though she is a believer in God allowed you to choose for yourself.  The choice you made isn't important, it's just nice to have the choice.  My parents were both raised catholic (no surprise coming to the US from Ireland) and took us to Church as kids but never really imposed it on us at home.  I remember taking my blanket with me and my mom would lay it out under the benches so I could nap nder there:)  As we got older we stopped going and those who wished to continue were allowed to do so, those who chose not to were never "talked" to about it.  Very refreshing to hear that some parents don't try to form their kiddos beliefs or feelings.  Again welcome!

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I wish more people of faith understood that aethism isn't a denial of the existence of God, but simply a conclusion that doesn't require a mystical explanation. God has nothing to do with it. It's an entirely different set of ideas that do not require a creator to be valid. It's just a different perspective of life and the universe, everything within it, and everything else.

I absolutely agree with this statement. Atheism is simply the discarding of a supernaturally based belief system of our origins for an ever evolving, scientifically driven, pursuit of the truth.

Anyway, welcome Aerlinn! I think you will enjoy this forum as much as I have. Always good to have new insights.  :)  Insights are the reason I'm here. This seems like a place where I can bump heads with like-minded people and come out of it with new ideas. That's not something I've ever found on the internet.

And hopefully the debates with the theo-users are friendly. From the bit I've read, they seem to be.

    Bookmarked.

Welcome to the forum, Aerlinn.  I have heard of the Halls-Mills case; interesting to hear the effect it had on your grandmother!
I have one small quibble, though.  While it's quite true that American atheists have never persecuted believers, the same cannot be said of all atheism.  In the USSR, the Russian Orthodox Church (http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm) did indeed suffer.  While it might be argued that this was more a political act than an act of atheist persecuting believer, it was in fact an atheist regime which rained down death and destruction on a church.  It's hard to find any classification of humans which is not guilty of some horrid behavior at one time or another.  Churches have just had a longer time to accumulate a history of intolerant violence and bloodshed.
Oh, one other thing; I do deny the existence of gods.

Quote from: "Recusant"Welcome to the forum, Aerlinn.  I have heard of the Halls-Mills case; interesting to hear the effect it had on your grandmother!
I have one small quibble, though.  While it's quite true that American atheists have never persecuted believers, the same cannot be said of all atheism.  In the USSR, the Russian Orthodox Church (http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm) did indeed suffer.  While it might be argued that this was more a political act than an act of atheist persecuting believer, it was in fact an atheist regime which rained down death and destruction on a church.  It's hard to find any classification of humans which is not guilty of some horrid behavior at one time or another.  Churches have just had a longer time to accumulate a history of intolerant violence and bloodshed.
Oh, one other thing; I do deny the existence of gods.

Interesting point.  Communist China als persecuted any believers, because you can't be a good communist and believe in God.  There are tons of stories from the Chinese Gulag of people inprisoned without reason, and many of them imprisoned indefitely (most dying of disentery) just for not openly denying God.  You didn't only have to not believe you needed to make sure everyone was aware of it, or you might be a closet believer.  Harry Wu wrote Bitter Winds about this which is one of the best biographies I've read.

I think his point is that we aren't running around purposefully not believing in God.  If it weren't for all of the believers out there, and God being interjected into so many isues and ideals we would never really even think about the fact that we don't believe in a God or Gods.  It only comes up when a God comes up.  If that were to go away we wouldn't even consider it as something we'd have to point out that we don't believe.

Quote from: "VanReal"I love how your mom, even though she is a believer in God allowed you to choose for yourself.  The choice you made isn't important, it's just nice to have the choice.

I agree. Having the choice is what's really important. Religion or faith is a personal decision and should be treated as such. I feel bad for those kids who are indoctrined.

And thanks for the props to my mom. She's pretty cool.

Quote from: "VanReal"My parents were both raised catholic (no surprise coming to the US from Ireland) and took us to Church as kids but never really imposed it on us at home.

I admit I've always thought of Irish catholics as being strictly devout. I guess that's the point of all this. We need to communicate and get rid of ignorant presumptions like that. If I had ever stopped to think about it, I'd obviously realize that not all Irish catholics have the same beliefs - but it's never come up until now. Perhaps the distrust for atheists is similar. People assume atheists are immoral and never have that presumption challenged. If they'd listen to an atheist though, they might realize that atheism is not what they think it is. And that most atheists aren't God-haters.

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I admit I've always thought of Irish catholics as being strictly devout. I guess that's the point of all this. We need to communicate and get rid of ignorant presumptions like that. If I had ever stopped to think about it, I'd obviously realize that not all Irish catholics have the same beliefs - but it's never come up until now. Perhaps the distrust for atheists is similar. People assume atheists are immoral and never have that presumption challenged. If they'd listen to an atheist though, they might realize that atheism is not what they think it is. And that most atheists aren't God-haters.

That assumption is usally pretty true, my grandmother that just turned 92 is still in the ranks.  My parents were both pretty down to earth, plus they came to the states during the 60s so had plenty of time to enjoy other ways of thinking.  They did have 16 kiddos though so I guess some things don't change!  I think there are certainly atheists with a lot of anger that tend to be harsh and critical with the theist community and those tend to be the ones that theists notice.  I feel that most of those have either been from very strict and religious families or are subject to criticism and religion being slapped in their face routinely.  Most, at least the ones I meet are down to earth and just want to learn and live without the supernatural requirements society tries to impose.  I don't know of any atheist that hates God, I would say they couldn't be an atheist, maybe if that one point could get out and become common knowledge we could get over a hump in the road.

Quote from: "Recusant"Welcome to the forum, Aerlinn.  I have heard of the Halls-Mills case; interesting to hear the effect it had on your grandmother!

Thanks for the welcome! She was actually one of the choir girls. It was her choir teacher who was having an affair with the pastor and was murdered.  ;)

Quote from: "VanReal"That assumption is usally pretty true, my grandmother that just turned 92 is still in the ranks.  My parents were both pretty down to earth, plus they came to the states during the 60s so had plenty of time to enjoy other ways of thinking.  They did have 16 kiddos though so I guess some things don't change!  I think there are certainly atheists with a lot of anger that tend to be harsh and critical with the theist community and those tend to be the ones that theists notice.  I feel that most of those have either been from very strict and religious families or are subject to criticism and religion being slapped in their face routinely.  Most, at least the ones I meet are down to earth and just want to learn and live without the supernatural requirements society tries to impose.  I don't know of any atheist that hates God, I would say they couldn't be an atheist, maybe if that one point could get out and become common knowledge we could get over a hump in the road.

I think a lot of so-called atheists are just pissed off kids who are trying it on like a piece of clothing; to be discarded if they don't like it. Others are genuinely pissed off, but they don't know what they believe.

As I see it, anger and atheism don't mix. If you've come to the conclusion that it's all subjective, what are you pissed off about?

When I said "God-haters" I don't mean people who hate God. Just the idea that some atheists scoff at the mention of God.

I know I have. I try not to be like that. But I have.

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I think a lot of so-called atheists are just pissed off kids who are trying it on like a piece of clothing; to be discarded if they don't like it. Others are genuinely pissed off, but they don't know what they believe.

As I see it, anger and atheism don't mix. If you've come to the conclusion that it's all subjective, what are you pissed off about?

When I said "God-haters" I don't mean people who hate God. Just the idea that some atheists scoff at the mention of God.

I know I have. I try not to be like that. But I have.

I get this a lot, too. People assume adolescent atheists are just going through a "phase" and it's a way of expressing normal, teenage angst. They attribute it to feelings of alienation. Interestingly, a recent study shows that it's the religious kids from "traditional" backgrounds who report the greatest feelings of alienation.

I think all of us scoff at the mention of God every once in a while. It's a source of much frustration for us, and, when we're in a bad mood, we tend to lash out, project our anger in ways that we wouldn't normally. I've done it, too. Like you, I try not to be like that. But I've done it. I think we all have. But, one doesn't become a passionate atheist by ignoring the issue. As the saying goes, "If you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention."  

Welcome! Any story with religion, murder and intrigue is okay in my book!

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I don't know which regime you were referring to...

The Bolshevik Communist regime which controlled the Soviet Union during most of the 20th century is the one to which I am referring.  I understand if you don't care to read the whole article I link to on the Russian Orthodox Church (http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm), but if you want to know what I'm talking about you can read just the 6th and 7th paragraphs in the section called "Church History."

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Aerlinn"As I see it, anger and atheism don't mix. If you've come to the conclusion that it's all subjective, what are you pissed off about?

But, one doesn't become a passionate atheist by ignoring the issue. As the saying goes, "If you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention."  ;)

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I don't know which regime you were referring to...

The Bolshevik Communist regime which controlled the Soviet Union during most of the 20th century is the one to which I am referring.  I understand if you don't care to read the whole article I link to on the Russian Orthodox Church (http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm), but if you want to know what I'm talking about you can read just the 6th and 7th paragraphs in the section called "Church History."

My apologies. I intended to follow the link but I was responding to two posts, and I got sidetracked.

I didn't realize the Bolsheviks had any religious or anti-religious motives. As I understood the Bolshevik movement, it was entirely political. But I suppose that is your point.  

Quote from: "VanReal"

Quote from: "Recusant"While it's quite true that American atheists have never persecuted believers, the same cannot be said of all atheism.  In the USSR, the Russian Orthodox Church (http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm) did indeed suffer.  While it might be argued that this was more a political act than an act of atheist persecuting believer, it was in fact an atheist regime which rained down death and destruction on a church.

Interesting point.  Communist China als persecuted any believers, because you can't be a good communist and believe in God.  There are tons of stories from the Chinese Gulag of people inprisoned without reason, and many of them imprisoned indefitely (most dying of disentery) just for not openly denying God.  You didn't only have to not believe you needed to make sure everyone was aware of it, or you might be a closet believer.  Harry Wu wrote Bitter Winds about this which is one of the best biographies I've read.

Ok. Due to the truth of these two points, I must humbly retract my statement that atheists have never persecuted anyone for their beliefs. It was quickly written, and not very well thought out. My bad.  

No worries!   Far better to become more well informed here in a friendly environment than to be blindsided while trying to make a point in discussion with a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or some other variety of peripatetic proselytizer. Not that I would suggest inviting religious fauna into your house, unless you happen to have a momentary whimsical yearning for pointless argumentation.

Quote from: "Aerlinn"I wish more people of faith understood that aethism isn't a denial of the existence of God, but simply a conclusion that doesn't require a mystical explanation. God has nothing to do with it. It's an entirely different set of ideas that do not require a creator to be valid. It's just a different perspective of life and the universe, everything within it, and everything else.

I wouldn't use the word denial but atheism is, by definition, based on that of theism and it therefore is (in a grammatical sense at least) a dismissal or rejection of the principal theistic claim (that there is one or more gods).

That probably means we disagree but hey ... it would be a dull place if we didn't on some things :)

Kyu

Welcome to the forum Aerlinn. I liked your intro, it was quite informative and entertaining. Just as Recusant, I too deny the existence of gods. I don't see it as something to be ignored because it can truly f*ck with peoples' lives. I agree with you that it isn't a 'part of the equation', but that doesn't change the fact that theists and fundies will attempt to shove him down your throat.

Again, welcome to the forum. This a great place for conversation and thought provoking ideas.

Your intro and replies re:intro are so well written. I'll be looking forward to your posts and comments.
 As a "true crime" voyeur, I know the  Hall-Mills case was a big media deal at the time, so it must have been quite a shock to the entire community and much more to the church embroiled in it.