Happy Atheist Forum

Okay, this is a good one and a moment of venting before I figure out how to properly address this without appearing to be an insane and/or overbearing mother.

My son comes home today and tells me about a substitute teacher he had in his pre-cal class today.  During class she asked my son and his friend if they were Christians.  My son says no, his friend says "kind of but I don't go to Church or anything."

First, I feel that in itself to be inappropriate.

So, for 35 minutes she tells the boys that they are just rebelling, and that they are truly Christians.  My son says "no, I'm not a Christian, I'm not religious, and I don't want to talk about this anymore."  Here's the kicker.  She continues to tell him that he is just rebelling and that she can tell that he is rebelling because his mother is a strong Christian woman!! What??  She really needs to get her Christian radar checked.  He told her "my mom is not a Christian, actually she doesn't believe in God at all."  She told him that was not true and that she could tell that his mother was a strong Christian.

So, in the end she told him that "5 things would happen to him and in the near future he was going to become a minister".  He was so upset because I have always taught him to be respectful to adults, particulalry those in positions of assumed authority, like at school, so instead of lashing out at her he just sat there and looked back and forth at his friend who has a look of confusion on his face.  

I am utterly flabbergasted.  I will be taking my much needed hours of rest and toning down before I contact the school, but I will most definitely be doing so.  The bad thing is that I am talking about Dallas ISD which is inept and not at all responsive to parents so I will pretty much just be getting it off of my chest and having nothing resolved.  I work for a neighboring school district, so also have to maintain some semblence of professionalism but ugh I just want to make a stink.  

That's just wrong...doesn't she know she isn't getting paid to harrass via preaching?  Even if it wasn't a separation of church and state issue it would still be wrong.

Was she doing this in front of the other students?  If so, that adds another level of wrong to it.  Actually, no, if she singled them out privately that is wrong in a different way.

 

Yes, it was during class, a math class of all things so it's not like it was social studies or philosophy.  She's a substitute, so I guess she really was just killing time.  I've actually had several issues with this school district and have had to rein a couple of teachers in, but never any quite this rude, and of course upsetting because he asked her to stop talking about it.

I imagine there aren't a lot of substitutes beating down to door to sub in our high schools (I wouldn't without the proper protective attire) but geepers, what in the world was she thinking. I told my baby boy that he must have looked like he needed some saving. He was just so mad, his hands were shaking a bit when he was telling me.

I think I'll file a complaint in writing to HR rather than call the school, I'll be better able to maintain some sense of compsure, and they won't be able to just hang up and forget about me.

If I were you I would try and get a face to face with this moron and call her out on her views. It never ceases to amaze me how christians can keep acting  so smug and morally superior, despite a great many of them being hipocritical bigots.

That is really appealing, particularly so I could provide her with verification that her vision of me as a strong Christian was as wrong as she could be.  She's a sub so getting hold of her would be difficult, but I may pursue that just on matter of principle.  I have had face to face talks with several of his teachers, more so when he was younger, due to blatant Christian talk in the classroom.  At that time my son was more upset at the teachers talking about Christianity being the only true religion when he was in a classroom full of jewish and muslim friends.  Truly he (my son I mean) has taught me a lot and really shows me, and confirms to me, that when left to think for themselves children will make their own decisions about religion and it usually is not towards joining in the belief.  That is what really burns me, I never told him what to think or what to believe, how dare some stranger tell him what he should do or think!  I hope this ice storm fades tonight so we have business in the schools tomorrow.  I feel I will be met with resistance from the district, it would be easier if she weren't a Christian, people really seem to tuck and run when people complain about them, especially here.

That is completely out of order. I'm quite shocked. Had that been in the UK, that supply teacher would have been sacked, or at least, severely disciplined.

Had that been my son/daughter, i'd have been round that school like a shot looking for answers. I'd be hell-bent on a clear explanation as to why this was allowed to happen and the assurance that it would never happen again.

Keep us posted as to how this pans out. If you take this further, it will be interesting to see how the school deals with it.

Agreed, updates would be very much appreciated.

Okay, so I went in and talked to the Principal today, and you'll love this.  She basically looked confused as to why this bothered me, so I had to appeal to her regarding this being inappropriate by itself but also inappropriate during 35 minutes fo class time for math.  At that point she kind of had to accept it as wrong, and she told me with a very reassuring tone "we will talk to her before her next sub day and address this.  You have to understand that she is from Africa and may not be aware of this being something she should avoid during class time."

So, she is from Africa so she doesn't understand it's inappropriate to openly verbally assault someone about religion?

and

It's something she should avoid, but only during class time?  

I guess it's okay during the lunch period or while walking in the hall?

I told her I didn't find that to be an acceptable response, and that I would suggest to my son that he come to the office directly if he finds himself in a class where she is subbing.  He obviously won't be missing any lesson time and does not have to participate in that environment.  

This administrator didn't get it.  I am going to appeal to HR and now have a complaint on two people.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.ning.com%2Ffiles%2FIvqemBCauJHQIPnbjy7MZJoFvpUjiBf8qrq62VcON-UTxGbM3KFhlZzyDTAUtQA3IVsy4jJvv-C4lrHUIZOKRJKOeia2EUkh%2Fchristian_persecution.jpg&hash=ce4d1be292630092958a1dda9a2e499f2c07ea3c)

^^ Related

Wow.  I'm wiping the froth from my mouth as my rabid anti-religion persona struggles to take over.

I can understand what a difficult position you must be in by working for a different school district, but really, what that teacher did amounts to an intellectual attack on your son.  Good for him for standing up for his beliefs, and good for you for raising him to be secure enough to do so!!!  And that principal!  Is she just a totally clueless idiot?  The sub and principal both need to be fired.  Regardless of the sub's beliefs, what she did was morally wrong on so many levels.  As a teacher, she is in a position of authority over those kids, and your son was basically a hostage to her attempts at a hostile takeover.  How dare she attempt to undermine your personal beliefs and the way you're raising your son?  And how dare the principal pretend not to understand that it's a big deal to you?  Can you even imagine the public outcry if she'd done that to a Muslim or Jewish kid?  So just because you're an atheist your kid is fair game?  OH, HELL NO!!!!!

Have you thought about bringing this to the attention of the media?  Surely there are some sympathetic reporters out there who would be willing to upset a few district officials.  Another option is to contact Americans United for Separation of Church and State.  I attended a meeting last week where there was a speaker from AUSCS and it was very interesting.  They're very big into getting religion out of our government and schools, and I'm sure they'd love to hear about your experience and might even be able to offer you some advice on concrete things you can do to protect your son's rights without alienating the entire Dallas area school personnel.

It just seems to me that this is a huge violation of your son's civil rights (maybe the ACLU?), and these assholes need to learn that their faith does NOT give them the right to just barge into anyone's life and tell them what they believe and what their mothers believe.

I have to stop now, because I'm getting really pissed.  But do keep us updated!

ETA:  The website for AUSCS is www.au.org (http://www.au.org) just in case you wanted to check them out.

You said that EXACTLY how I feel but am unable to articulate because I'm just upset.  The funny thing is I never raised him to be anything.  I let him go off to church camps and do things with local churches (of course mt absence probably created questions) and let him find his own way.  He's more of an apatheist and all I want to do is be momma bear.  I'm an administrator at a very political and afluent district in this area.  They wouldn't think twice about firing me if I made too big a stink.  Ugghh.  I'll keep you posted.

Think of it this way:  Just imagine the stink if they did fire you because you were fighting for your minor son's civil rights.  That is something just begging for national headlines.  Of course you don't want to jeopardize your job, especially because you still have one!  But it's kind of fun to imagine making a huge public stink and shoving it up their noses, isn't it?  

I'd call the ACLU. If that was a public school, she was breaking the law. Perhaps a letter from the ACLU laying the law down for them would help.

Check out the following helpful, current, and relevant bit of news:http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/aclu_protests_lunchtime_prosel.php

It is an article from 8 days ago about a very similar situation and the ACLU's response.

Quote from: "Faithless"But it's kind of fun to imagine making a huge public stink and shoving it up their noses, isn't it?   :eek:  

Yeah, and yikes!  He's a junior, I've got to get him through college yet, hehe.  I do need to do something because I can't show him that it's not okay to stand up for yourself.  I will take some quiet time to think about it rationally and calculate a smart rather than knee-jerk action, just for self-preservation.

Here is the letter the ACLU sent to the Michigan Board of Education:
"Parents, not the public schools, are responsible for deciding when and whether their children receive religious education," said ACLU lawyer James Rodbard. "Public schools should create an environment where students of all faiths feel comfortable and they should protect children from religious coercion by school volunteers."

According to the letter, an outside volunteer, who is also a youth minister at the Hope Reform Church in South Haven, was permitted by South Haven Schools to come to the middle and high school during classroom hours and solicit students to participate in religious activities through the Hope Reform Church.

"We are extremely troubled," read the letter, "not only by the fact that the South Haven Schools are allowing select ministers to proselytize during school hours, but also that some school administrators are actively participating in these unconstitutional activities."

During one incident, the ACLU has learned that the youth minister and the South Haven High School Assistant Principal forced a student into an isolated room and attempted to pressure the student to pay for a church-based retreat that the student signed up for during school hours, but did not attend. During this ordeal, the student was not permitted to call his parents and in fact, his parents were never notified that he signed up for the church retreat.

In the letter, the ACLU of Michigan urged the superintendent "to assure that all students' constitutional rights are protected by putting an end to the unlawful practice of permitting and/or encouraging religious leaders to proselytize students at South Haven Schools."

I just wanted to bring this thread back to see if VanReal had any follow up to this situation. I, for one, am interested in how this will play out. What that teacher did was wrong, and I hope is addressed.

I had a stroke of bad luck that the day after I had my useless meeting with the Principal we had an ice day and then I had two meetings at work the following day.  I have written a letter to Humand Resources about the substitute and my instructions to my son to report to the office if she is allowed to sub in any of his other courses.  I copied the Principal as I had informed the main HR office in the letter of her lack of cooperation and flipant attitude towards my plea.  Dallas ISD is so big and has so many problems I think it will fall into "file 13" and never be seen nor hood of again.  My son is feeling better and jokes about it a bit now "oh, I got a job today maybe this was one of the "five things" that she predicted would happen, hehe".  I am glad he will be a senior next year, and sad that Dallas ISD is such a mess.

I am thinking about doing a public information request should I not get a response from the administrative office of the district.  I am going to request that subs work days and which classes she subbed in.  The information is not important, just asking for the information raises red flags to the district and usually inclines them to react (I know from experience).  I sincerely hope I don't have to go that far, but I've already been published in our local paper regarding the district's inept ability to manage their budget so they do know I am not exactly a wall-flower.