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Religion => Religion => Topic started by: Asmodean on January 11, 2009, 09:12:28 AM

Title: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Asmodean on January 11, 2009, 09:12:28 AM
From McQ: This topic has been split off from the original thread. Feel free to continue the discussion of proving god here. These are the posts that lead up to the split.




Quote from: "Messenger"You can not prove Odin but I can prove God  ;)
Quote from: "Pointers for Messenger's proof of his deity, whatever its name"
QuoteScientific method refers to bodies of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context

QuoteEvidence is information, such as facts, coupled with principles of inference (the act or process of deriving a conclusion), that make information relevant to the support or disproof of a hypothesis. Scientific evidence is evidence where the dependence of the evidence on principles of inference is not conceded, enabling others to examine the background beliefs or assumptions employed to determine if facts are relevant to the support of or falsification of a hypothesis

QuoteIn science, the term natural science refers to a naturalistic approach to the study of the universe, which is understood as obeying rules or law of natural origin. The term natural science is also used to distinguish those fields that use the scientific method to study nature from the social sciences and the humanities, which use the scientific method to study human behavior and society; and from the formal sciences, such as mathematics and logic, which use a different (a priori) methodology.

Please do. And try to come up with something at least resembling a scientific theory. not a hypothesis, since you claim to be able to prove your god.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 12, 2009, 06:50:34 PM
:pop:
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Will on January 12, 2009, 07:07:57 PM
â,¬5 says I can prove Odin meeting the same burden of proof that a religious person might require to prove the Judeo-Christian god.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Sophus on January 12, 2009, 08:55:01 PM
Oh, me! Pick me! I can prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The thing is Messenger you can't prove any god. Nor can you technically disprove anything with complete certainty.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Messenger on January 13, 2009, 09:20:23 AM
Quote from: "Sophus"Oh, me! Pick me! I can prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The thing is Messenger you can't prove any god. Nor can you technically disprove anything with complete certainty.
Wait and see, I'll not only prove God, I'll also disprove any other God
Only based on 2 facts/Axioms
1-X=X   X<> Not(X)
2-Every effect needs a cause
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: bowmore on January 13, 2009, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: "Messenger"
Quote from: "Sophus"Oh, me! Pick me! I can prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The thing is Messenger you can't prove any god. Nor can you technically disprove anything with complete certainty.
Wait and see, I'll not only prove God, I'll also disprove any other God
Only based on 2 facts/Axioms
1-X=X   X<> Not(X)
2-Every effect needs a cause

...

mmm, seems the actual proof is missing.

Did you submit your post too quickly?
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Kyuuketsuki on January 13, 2009, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: "Messenger"Wait and see, I'll not only prove God, I'll also disprove any other God
Only based on 2 facts/Axioms
1-X=X   X<> Not(X)
2-Every effect needs a cause

Or you can spew bollox ... but then I see you already have.

Kyu
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Messenger on January 13, 2009, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: "bowmore"mmm, seems the actual proof is missing.

Did you submit your post too quickly?
I'm still fabricating it for you  :D
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: bowmore on January 13, 2009, 12:15:32 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"
Quote from: "bowmore"mmm, seems the actual proof is missing.

Did you submit your post too quickly?
I'm still fabricating it for you  :D

Why don't you finish fabricating it, and then post it.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Messenger on January 13, 2009, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: "bowmore"
Quote from: "Messenger"
Quote from: "bowmore"mmm, seems the actual proof is missing.

Did you submit your post too quickly?
I'm still fabricating it for you  :D

Why don't you finish fabricating it, and then post it.
Today or tomorrow
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Kyuuketsuki on January 13, 2009, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"
Quote from: "bowmore"Why don't you finish fabricating it, and then post it.
Today or tomorrow

My money's on it being as laughable as your previous drivel ... anyone care to to take a bet?

Still ... there's always a first time  :crazy:

Kyu
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Asmodean on January 13, 2009, 03:05:59 PM
Again, please read the quotes in my OP so that you know what kind of evidence is acceptable and how you should proceed with your proof.

Saying that every event has a cause is so much wasted breath by itself and I can not see how you could manage ANY sort of proof of deity out of that.

X=X X<> Not(X) This is either mathematical nonsense, stating that if something equals itself then it is either less or greater than something else (x=apple(s), y=elefant dung, is then x<y?), or it can be something else in which case I doubt that expression makes any more sense.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 13, 2009, 04:36:09 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"Wait and see, I'll not only prove God, I'll also disprove any other God
Only based on 2 facts/Axioms
1-X=X   X<> Not(X)
2-Every effect needs a cause

This will be (and I don't know why I'm even bothering; it's a waste of time) nothing more than a convoluted, poorly-constructed Kalam cosmological argument, which has been torn apart a thousand different ways. First cause /= creator. Sorry.

SRSLY.  :brick:
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Sophus on January 13, 2009, 08:29:04 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"1-X=X   X<> Not(X)

Are you trying to refer to Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction? I hope not.  :eek:

Anyways, that's a theory I use often to disprove god.

Quote2-Every effect needs a cause
We both can agree with this statement to the same degree. But neither theist nor atheist can apply this when tracing back the origins of the universe. We just disagree on what the cause is.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: SSY on January 14, 2009, 12:55:54 AM
Quote from: "Messenger"1-X=X   X<> Not(X)


Can some one explain this to me?

negative x is equal to x, implying that x is zero?

x is less than, greather than? what?

Not(x)? is Not a function? Is there some kind of notation I am missing here?
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Asmodean on January 14, 2009, 04:04:52 AM
Quote from: "SSY"
Quote from: "Messenger"1-X=X   X<> Not(X)


Can some one explain this to me?

negative x is equal to x, implying that x is zero?

x is less than, greather than? what?

Not(x)? is Not a function? Is there some kind of notation I am missing here?

I tried to decypher it above:

Quote from: "Asmodean"X=X X<> Not(X) This is either mathematical nonsense, stating that if something equals itself then it is either less or greater than something else (x=apple(s), y=elefant dung, is then x<y?), or it can be something else in which case I doubt that expression makes any more sense.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: brekfustuvluzerz on January 14, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: "SSY"
Quote from: "Messenger"1-X=X   X<> Not(X)


Can some one explain this to me?

negative x is equal to x, implying that x is zero?

x is less than, greather than? what?

Not(x)? is Not a function? Is there some kind of notation I am missing here?
i dont think this is supposed to be algebra, but some sort of pathetic attempt at logic symbolism. but then "not x" wouldnt be -x, it would be tilde x (i dont know how to make a tilde), the equals sign should have three lines (which cant be made on a computer) and means "if and only if", and the > means "if, then", the < has no meaning and the () usually means "in the case of" so this statement would read: "the opposite of x is true if and only if x, if x then not in the case of x." or to put it plainly "an asshole only produces shit."

messenger, if you are going to put variables in your "equation" then you must tell us what they stand for. this is pathetic.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: SSY on January 14, 2009, 06:02:22 PM
here is atilde, he lives next to your return key

~

If you still have any problems with it, come here and quote this one any time you need it :)

Also, thanks for your help with the crypto logic there, though i fear i still don't really get the argument.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 14, 2009, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: "SSY"here is atilde, he lives next to your return key

~

If you still have any problems with it, come here and quote this one any time you need it ;)
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Kevin on January 14, 2009, 09:26:28 PM
Quote from: "Sophus"Oh, me! Pick me! I can prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The thing is Messenger you can't prove any god. Nor can you technically disprove anything with complete certainty.

Proof of the FSM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg)

And yes, I do agree that you can't prove any god, also... For me though, the thing is that not being able to prove any god is enough for me not to believe.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: SSY on January 15, 2009, 12:55:10 AM
Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"
Quote from: "SSY"here is atilde, he lives next to your return key

~

If you still have any problems with it, come here and quote this one any time you need it ;)

Im guessing an english keyboard will be the cause, do you have an @ above your 2, or is it some " ?
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 15, 2009, 02:25:21 AM
Quote from: "SSY"Im guessing an english keyboard will be the cause, do you have an @ above your 2, or is it some " ?

Actually, when you hold Shift and press 2 it types out all the lyrics to "Common People" by Pulp. Weird, right? :)
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: brekfustuvluzerz on January 15, 2009, 04:50:37 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~GOT IT!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: SSY on January 15, 2009, 10:44:30 AM
YAY! Praise JEBUS!
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Messenger on January 19, 2009, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"Not(x)? is Not a function? Is there some kind of notation I am missing here?
i dont think this is supposed to be algebra, but some sort of pathetic attempt at logic symbolism. but then "not x" wouldnt be -x, it would be tilde x (i dont know how to make a tilde), the equals sign should have three lines (which cant be made on a computer) and means "if and only if", and the > means "if, then", the < has no meaning and the () usually means "in the case of" so this statement would read: "the opposite of x is true if and only if x, if x then not in the case of x." or to put it plainly "an asshole only produces shit."

messenger, if you are going to put variables in your "equation" then you must tell us what they stand for. this is pathetic.[/quote]
As it is kind of difficult to write all those symbols in correct mathmatical forms
X means any attribute of anything
X=X   means things are consistent or are as it is in real, for example a red ball is a red ball
X<>not X means X does not equal its opposite, a red ball is not blue

This is very trivial, but I need it here, because you are going to deny that to refute God  :P
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Kyuuketsuki on January 19, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
Quote from: "Messenger"This is very trivial, but I need it here, because you are going to deny that to refute God  :P

Even if you end up with a calculation that somehow (mysteriously) proves your god you still lack the one thing you need, validatable evidence! You have none and my money is on the fact that you never will have.

Kyu
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: bowmore on January 19, 2009, 12:26:33 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"As it is kind of difficult to write all those symbols in correct mathmatical forms

Well you can just use words instead of the alternative symbols that apparently only you seem to understand.
Or at least define your symbols before using them.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 19, 2009, 03:04:14 PM
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I've got bunches. Take one of mine.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: NearBr0ken on January 20, 2009, 03:58:18 AM
I posed this same scenario to a theist recently.  I asked him why he believed that Jesus was God rather than Odin.  He replied "because one is right and one is wrong."  His basis for his belief system turned out to be his own belief system.  He simply refused to understand the concept of circular logic.  It's like they're memetically immune to anything outside of their religion.
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Messenger on January 20, 2009, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: "NearBr0ken"I posed this same scenario to a theist recently.  I asked him why he believed that Jesus was God rather than Odin.  He replied "because one is right and one is wrong."  His basis for his belief system turned out to be his own belief system.  He simply refused to understand the concept of circular logic.  It's like they're memetically immune to anything outside of their religion.
Yes, this will be circular logic
But the only god can be proved!
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: Squid on January 20, 2009, 03:16:17 PM
~
≡
⊃
∀ n ∈ N


....symbols are fun...
Title: Re: Proof of God vs. Odin?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on January 20, 2009, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: "Messenger"Yes, this will be circular logic
But the only god can be proved!

Yes, only one god can be proved. And that god goes by the name of Greg.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages46.fotki.com%2Fv1445%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1232405084839-vi.gif&hash=bf3e42b15929e36e0d32c3d95affc860454eb2a3)