Happy Atheist Forum

Between the ages of 9 and 16 I was forced to attend church, and even attended a private Christian school for grades 7 and 8. It was horrible, but I'm actually glad for it because it ensured that I learned enough to STAY AWAY later.

Now, there were plenty of things I learned that made me go  :crazy: , but he BIG one, the one I've never been able to get even a slightly acceptable explanation for, is this:

1)God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future.
2)He made Lucifer, his most beloved angel.

So, even BEFORE creating Lucifer, God knew that Lucifer would betray him and become Satan, Lord of Darkness (this dilemma spills over to Adam and Eve, too). What exactly was God's reasoning for this? I mean, he can't make mistakes, so if he went ahead and made Lucifer anyway, then that means he intended for everything to happen the way it did, right? The most common response I get is along the lines of God's ways being "higher than our ways", implying that it's not something we can understand because we're just simple, stupid humans. But if I made a robot knowing that a glitch in it would cause it to one day kill all humans, then I'd be a monster, an idiot, or insane; nobody would think that my reasoning was the result of superior thought processes. And it brings into question the Christian concept of love: If God already knew the outcome then Lucifer had no choice, nullifying another common explanation I get from Christians trying to take the blame off of God, "Lucifer had a CHOICE." Seriously, if Lucifer had not chosen to betray God, then the knowledge of the future God had would have been false, and God can't be wrong, can he? So, NO, Lucifer did not have a choice, there are even passages in the Bible which state that nothing can happen that God does not will to happen. So God willed his most beloved angel to become his worst enemy from the outset? Please, PLEASE stop telling me that God loves me.

Most of my family are devout Christians, and are constantly perplexed about my rejection of their religion, despite my frequent reminder about said dilemma and their inability to explain it.

Any Christians have a better explanation?

...Lucifer is just the best known among the fallen angels - Satan or no, why would the omniscient god create minions that would betray it..?

Quote from: "Asmodean"...Lucifer is just the best known among the fallen angels - Satan or no, why would the omniscient god create minions that would betray it..?

Ha, I was kind of hoping the first reply would be a counter, but it's also nice to have someone adding to this "Analysis of Divine Insanity".

My father, whom is a Calvinist, would say that God intended for this to happen so that a few chosen people can realize God's grace and recognize him as Love itself.

It's not just the creation of that rebel angel that does not make any sense (other than an insane god), but the existence of our vast universe and the countless number of bacteria and insects on our planet (rendering us insignificant). This god must not only be insane, like a person making a robot with a terrifying glitch, but also this god must be loony tunes. "I created billions of galaxies just so that I can tell the Israelite men to wear white tassels on the corners of their garments."

Quote from: "gwyn428"My father, whom is a Calvinist, would say that God intended for this to happen so that a few chosen people can realize God's grace and recognize him as Love itself.

It's not just the creation of that rebel angel that does not make any sense (other than an insane god), but the existence of our vast universe and the countless number of bacteria and insects on our planet (rendering us insignificant). This god must not only be insane, like a person making a robot with a terrifying glitch, but also this god must be loony tunes. "I created billions of galaxies just so that I can tell the Israelite men to wear white tassels on the corners of their garments."

Another great addition, and totally on the money. For such an infinitely powerful/creative being, "He" sure has some pretty simplistic M.O.'s.

Funny about your Dad, my step-father once said something similar (though not as a direct response to the dilemma I outlined), about how God already has his few chosen people to join him in heaven. Makes no sense to me, if they're already chosen then why do Christians always seem to emphasize freedom of choice when it comes to going to heaven, and why do they feel the need to try and convert people. Wouldn't it just be an exercize in futility?

So many contradictions, not enough server space in the world.

I agree totally with you.

This also implies that god wants serial killers to kill, rapists to rape and blasphemers to blaspeme.

Come to think of it, this whol religon things sounds a little silly . . . . . . .

Quote from: "SSY"Come to think of it, this whol religon things sounds a little silly . . . . . . .

Maybe it's a practical joke where the [intelligent] person finally realizes the religion is such horrible nonsense and nothing serious?

One day I should declare myself a prophet and make a new religion where an important sacrament is to roll around in dirt. Perhaps most of my followers will keep it up til death while only 9% of them realize this is some kind of joke.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"Funny about your Dad, my step-father once said something similar (though not as a direct response to the dilemma I outlined), about how God already has his few chosen people to join him in heaven. Makes no sense to me, if they're already chosen then why do Christians always seem to emphasize freedom of choice when it comes to going to heaven, and why do they feel the need to try and convert people. Wouldn't it just be an exercize in futility?

Calvinists believe that since the beginning a number of people were chosen to accept the Gospel and then in the end they will become the Bride of the Lamb. Those of us who were not chosen will simply be thrown into the hellfire. All of this, and every event, was preordained and therefore nobody can actually make the choice to go to Heaven (the sky?). Calvinists believe all of this even though it is extremely ludicrous and it still makes me wonder why the whole universe would be "created" just so that some of the chosen can be saved. The billions of galaxies and stars, the countless billions of bacteria and insects... all of that makes Calvinism, all religions, and in general the idea that humankind is special a petty idea.

Perhaps the choice that mattered was not Lucifer's, but ours. If we didn't have the option to do bad things, then goodness would be meaningless.

I'm not saying I believe that crap. I'm playing god's boneheaded advocate here (since Satan doesn't seem to need one for now).

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Perhaps the choice that mattered was not Lucifer's, but ours. If we didn't have the option to do bad things, then goodness would be meaningless.

I'm not saying I believe that crap. I'm playing god's boneheaded advocate here (since Satan doesn't seem to need one for now).

Good philosophical point. Although it wouldn't really justify their God's ethics, it would be refreshing if Christians used more thinking like this instead of not thinking at all and just defaulting to those canned answers like "I don't know, God's ways are above me.", which kind of contradicts the whole "Confusion is of the devil" thing, and also the constant ascertions that "all of the answers" are in the Bible. Beliefs aside, I could enjoy discussing religion with Christians if they actually put some effort into it, and I would take them a little more seriously.

As a little aside, I'd have to say that it's not really the belief in a god or many other concepts that I find necessarily irrational, it's the "worshipping" of the Bible that I find truly ridiculous. I asked my step-sister, who's in bible college, what she thinks about the fact that two conflicting accounts of Judas's death are given, and she got upset with me as a result of her own confusion. I felt kind of bad, actually, but told her that if she's going to pursue a "career" in harvesting souls she's got to be ready for questions like that if she's going to proclaim the Bible is "flawless". It's also ironic that some of them will alter the meanings in the Bible to suit their own values, like one thing I've been hearing about the wine jesus made being "new wine", a non-alcoholic juice. In those days, alcohol was common because water and juice spoiled quickly (that's why pirates and other sea-farers were usually drunk, too), but rather than see something they consider sinful in a historical, survival based context, they'd rather just interpret history, and even the Bible, in their own way. It's ironic because it's a sin to alter God's word, yet the text has been re-translated/altered so many times.

I think that the root inconsistency in the Christians' thinking is that they are torn between free will and determinism.

To me, there are two distinct ways of looking at it:
1. God created the angels and humankind and lets both choose what they do, gives them that will.
2. God created the angels and humankind and intervenes directly, setting a course for them that they must necessarily follow (like a kind of liquid spear from Donnie Darko), which is what I think you were implicitly stressing by the "HE KNOWS EVERYTHING" thing.

Now when they say that God created Lucifer, then say that Lucifer chose to sin and God had to shoo him from heaven, they are advocates of free will.
But then when they say that God knew all along that Lucifer would fall because He's so powerful and so blah blah blah, they become determinists.

This distinction still causes a huge rift between denominations, whether God "elects" those He sends to Heaven rather than Hell, or whether they choose whether they get saved or not.

When I was a Christian, I held to the second one of course. This problem is what I think led me eventually to Deism and then to this forum: the fact that the Bible itself contains the inconsistency. "Well does God orchestrate events or do I?" I had enough reason to believe that I did, and so that kept me from believing the election tripe and that kept me from believing the Bible but still believing in a God (Deism), then I just questioned it all and wondered what the point was after I visited a Unitarian church one Sunday and saw how fruitless and just plain annoying even that was.

And that "higher than our ways" argument of theirs is what we call a cop-out.

This bit of Christian theology I can't find in the Bible, but I see the conflict. If God were to exist, and if he were a God of love, then in my opinion free-will's a given - it's the only way an honest, loving relationship can be entered into. It's also likely that some people would say no - as Lucifer did. The main problem I have trouble with is how God knows the future but maintains the choice component for his creations.

The only explanation I can think of is that God would know each of his creations so well - their personality, the conflict of choices within them, the influences they've had or how they have interacted with the world - that he would exactly what choices you'll want to make, and what effects those choices would have on the giant chessboard of life he supposedly knows down to the last intricate detail. For example, if you knew someone was a selfish person, you would know they'd turn down an opportunity to sacrifice for the benefit of another. If God exists and is omniscient etc, it would be the same - only on an infinitely large scale.

It's a major difficulty of course, how true free will is possible in the world - I've thought about it before, because there are so many worldly influences like biological inheritance and child nurturing that seem to contradict the idea.

Interesting Topic
I'm a christian so of course I'm going to have to disagree with what everyone is saying about religion being false or silly. There is evidence all around us that there is a God above. I'll get to your question a bit later. First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real. (Got some eye rolls Im sure lol)

The Organization Of Our Solar System
This earth we live on is in the perfect spot in our solar system. It's far enough from the sun that we don't burn to death. However it isnt too far away from the sun either. If we were any further from the sun we would all freeze to death as well. The moon is far enough away from the earth that it isn't pulled into our gravitational pull.  Not only that but the earth was made just he right size to support life. No other planet can support life because only the planet earth has an atmosphere with a thin layer of nitrogen and oxygen gases extending 50 miles above the earths surface. If the earth was any bigger the atmosphere would contain nothing but free hydrogen like the planet Jupiter. In that case we would not be able to survive. If the Earth was smaller an atmosphere would not be possible like Mercury. You see science does support the fact that there is a God after all. The solar system wasn't set up this perfect by accident or a coincidence. God had to have created our solar system.

Also the earth has it's own built in watering system. 97% of the earths water is located in it's oceans. Due to evaporation the salt is removed from the water and the water is dispersed all over the earth for vegetation, animals, and people. Everytime it rains your witnessing this watering system at work. It doesn't just happen by accident.

The Human Body
Our own human body is more proof that God does exist. Your body is made up of mostly water. Two thirds of your body to be exact. Water is colorless, ordorless, and tasteless as you know. Some things you might not realize about water in the human body though is that it has unusually high boiling/freezing points. Water allows us to live in fluctuating temperatures while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water helps our body to also carry chemicals, minerals, and nutrients through our bodies even in the smallest blood vessels. Water is also chemically neutral which means it doesnt affect the make up of the substances it carries that are used by our bodies. What a clever invention this is.

How about the human brain? Your brain takes in everything you see/feel. From colors/sounds all the way to the pain you feel when you get burnt. It holds all your emotions, thoughts, and memories. It even keeps track of things like the way you breath, how you know your hungry, and so on. Our bodies are no accident. How could our bodies accidently form the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, and structure for this magnificant creation? It cant. Due to the brain we have the ability to reason, produce feelings, dream, and many many other things. Not a coincidence. How can something like life all of a sudden just happen from non-life lol? Your body and how it works had to have had a designer. It's far too complex.

Religion Over Time/The Bible
Religion has been around from day one. The first day the earth was created Adam and Eve lived knowing there was a higher power named God. All this time later in the year 2009 many still believe this. Even after centuries of people trying to get rid of religion it still stands. People have been killed/tortured for centuries for their beliefs in religion yet it still exists. It has always been around, it will always be around, and nothing can change that.

The Bible was created over a period of about 1500 years with about 40 different human writers. None of these people ever got to talk. None of these people ever decided to get together to create the biggest scam of all time. They all lived in different time periods. They all came from different backgrounds. Yet how is it that every single one of their stories seem to fit together without any contradictions? The Bible being fake isn't possible.

Suffering In The World
Why would God allow suffering in the world? Wy does God let bad things happen to all of us? It's called free will. If someone dies in a car accident after getting hit by a drunk driver then it isn't that God couldn't stop it. It's just that it would be a violation of free will if God prevented it from happening. He can't take your beer away and say no without breaking your promise of free will now can he? Bad things happen in the world because we don't listen to God. It's just that simple really. Murder, rape, drugs, and etc God tells us not to do. We do it anyway though. We can't blame God for these things. Blame ourselves!

Moral Values
Where did moral values first come from? Did people just decide a long time ago that we needed to have rules? Or did God give us the ten commandments? I think it's safe to say that people are animals. We lie, cheat, steal, and so on. We are selfish, we kill each other, and it's always been this way. Human beings did not create moral values. God did. A lot of the world just refuses to listen to God. Look at the times we live in. Never before has there been more killing, stealing,  and greed in this world. God started us out with morals. Satan has slowly led humanity away from all these things. Eventually he will take over, Jesus will come back, and Satan will be thrown in the pit for 1000 years. After that he'll be allowed a short time to try and lead people from God again but will again fail. He'll then be thrown in the lake of fire and humanity will forever be free of all of these evil things.

Your Own Personal Experiences
I went from a person who didn't care about anything but drinking, sex, and so on to becoming a christian who does good for other people. I use to have no goals, no ambition, and no purpose to live really. God gives me a reason to live. He gives me goals and a purpose. It's safe to say that God made a man out of me. Every bad experience I've went through I've come out a much strong man. Things dont happen to me. They happen for me.

Back To Your Question
Why would God create Satan if he is an all knowing God? I think the reason is that God knew that eventually if it wasn't Satan then someone else would have eventually pulled away from him and done the exact same thing. How do we know something in life is wrong? We try it and we deal with the consequences. Satan tried to overthrow God and he paid the price. Now we all know what happens when we try to put ourselves above God. There is always someone who thinks that they are better than those before him. Despite God not being happy about it I think he knew that he needed to make an example of someone.

As far as human beings go I don't think any of us are created to go to hell by default. I think we are created to realize sin is wrong and to become closer to God. Everyone has the opportunity to repent and accep christ as their savior. If they don't then it's their fault that they are burning in hell for all of eternity. It's that simple. God calls us to him. He called me to him and I've accepted his gift of salvation. Before I became a christian God was constantly nagging me to come to him. An Atheist actually pushed me to him. I didn't know anything about the bible at the time. An athiest I know told me that they didn't believe in the bible. I became obsessed with learning more about the topic as a result. God used this person to bring me to him. Perhaps the reason christianity bothers you all so much is because God wants you to know him better. Maybe the reason your frustrated with God is because he's calling you to him despite the fact your not interested? Think about it.

Now feel free to rip me a new one lol.

So... who wants to field these?  

Not me.  All of wesmel06's information is why he/she believes in his/her Christianity but nothing in it is proof.  "The bible being fake is impossible" by his/her reading would assume that none of the information was available to the other "writer" between the centuries?  And statements about God having to have created these things because they aren't "accdients"...I'm not thinking that discoveries in science are considered explanations of accidents.  Don't know how, nor really don't want, to try to diffute anything in the statements or questions because they are all based on theology and I just can't debate or argue something I really can't wrap my head around.

Sigh, i will have a crack at his, though the delusion seems deep rooted, this person has re-affirmed a belief in god becuase they seem to be unable to make decent life choices for themselves.

Your First arguments are incorrect. You start from the assumption, "People need X conditions to live", you then infer that becuase these conditions exist around us, that someone must have put it there for us. Madness, if the conditions did not exist, we would not be asking the question, becuase we would not be alive. The question presupposes an answer.

Your argunment also verges on another fallacy. The atmosphere of the earth is transparent to EM waves in the range 400-700nm, you know these waves as light. It is much less transparent to microwaves and infrared ( for example, you cans ee a candle a mile away in the dark, but cannot feel it's heat until you within inches of it). To you, this would seem to suggest god made the atmosphere perfect for our viewing needs. What actually happened was the eye evolved to take advantage of light in the 400-700nm range. Any eye that evolved outside this range was useless, and was never passed on. Humans are adapted to the enviroment, not the other way round.

You simply assert our bodies are no accident. You are correct in this assetion, but for all the wrong reasons. Our bodies evolved through a multitude of tiny steps until we are as we are. Evolution is scientificaly supported, creationism is not.

Venerial disease has been around even longer than religon, despite many, many attempts to destroy it, maybe we should worship that instead? the authors of the bible were not in islation from the works of their predesescors, they did not all go away and write a gospel seperatley before combining them to make one whole. Also, the bible is CHOCK full of contradictions, positivley brimming with them.

Your view about free will and determinism, is also logically false when coming from the precept of a all knowing, all powerful god, I will come to this a little later. Though there is already a topic about this on the forum.

your view of humanity saddens me. The only thing keeping you from lying, cheating and killing is because the magic skydaddy said so?

What sect are you a part of?

Quote from: "wesmel06"There is evidence all around us that there is a God above.

Vedantists would say that there is a god or consciousness that is all-pervading and hidden within all living beings. Your opinion, that there is a god above, is just one arbitrary position based on your observance of our world. I'm curious as to what exactly it is that you consider to be evidence a god above... which by the way you actually mean "my prefered god."

Quote from: "wesmel06"First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real.

You yourself probably think that the religions of Muslims, Hare Krishnas, Thelemites, Wiccans, etc. are pretty silly, fake, and made up. These same people will assure you that their religions are definitely real, but you'll disagree no matter what.

Quote from: "wesmel06"This earth we live on is in the perfect spot in our solar system. It's far enough from the sun that we don't burn to death. However it isnt too far away from the sun either. If we were any further from the sun we would all freeze to death as well.

Ever seen a puddle of water in an opening that fits it so well? Must have been put there by god, right?

Quote from: "wesmel06"You see science does support the fact that there is a God after all. The solar system wasn't set up this perfect by accident or a coincidence. God had to have created our solar system.

Yeah.. and science also supports the fact that our planet is flat and resting upon invisible crimson pillars. Why is it that religious people call their beloved myths facts? Have you heard from any scientist or read from a scientific book or magazine that they have found factual or tangible evidence for the existence of... name your god? Long ago people did not know what causes thunder, so they had to say that a thunder god did it. No god created our solar system... people's gods of the gaps created the solar system.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Also the earth has it's own built in watering system. 97% of the earths water is located in it's oceans. Due to evaporation the salt is removed from the water and the water is dispersed all over the earth for vegetation, animals, and people. Everytime it rains your witnessing this watering system at work. It doesn't just happen by accident.

I have also noticed a few times that when sperm builds up in my testicles and isn't ever used for anything, my body naturally releases some of it at night while I am alseep. CLEARLY someone's god causes this to happen..  :lol: Psalms were written by King David and the Proverbs were written by Solomon. I'm sure they also never got to talk to each other.  :)

Quote from: "wesmel06"None of these people ever decided to get together to create the biggest scam of all time.

You probably believe that the Qur'an, Sunnah, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Mahabharata were written by people who got together to create some big scams, right? I think they were, just as I also think the Bible is.

Guess what? People create big scams all the time! And why would Joseph Smith llliiieee?  :)

Quote from: "wesmel06"He gives me goals and a purpose.

Life itself gives me goals and a purpose. :lol:

Quote from: "wesmel06"Now feel free to rip me a new one lol.

I don't swing that way.  

Well I see I'm certainly going to be doing a lot of typing here today. I'll start with SSY and move on to gwyn428 a little bit later.

Quote from: "SSY"Sigh, i will have a crack at his, though the delusion seems deep rooted, this person has re-affirmed a belief in god becuase they seem to be unable to make decent life choices for themselves.

 There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated. Why anyone would be upset that someone believes in christianity is a mystery to me. Christianity is one of the best religions as far as morals are concerned. It doesn't promote killing, stealing, drug abuse, selfishness, or anything else that is ruining our society today. Wether people believe God to be real or not it's pretty clear that christianity has nothing but good intentions. Not like other religions like Islam where killing others in the name of your faith is a great honor.

Here is something I really want you and everyone else to think over. When I'm asked if something is right or wrong I look at it like this. If everyone did it or was a believer in it would the world be a great place for all of us to live? As far as christianity is concerned the answer to that simple question would be yes. Other religions like Islam? They do things called honor killings. If a woman is raped they look at it like she has disgraced her family. Like she is unclean or something. She then has the choice of being killed or killing herself in the name of Islam in some type of terrorist attack like 9/11 for example. Is the answer the same for religions like Islam? The answer to that question of course is no.

Quote from: "SSY"Your argunment also verges on another fallacy. The atmosphere of the earth is transparent to EM waves in the range 400-700nm, you know these waves as light. It is much less transparent to microwaves and infrared ( for example, you cans ee a candle a mile away in the dark, but cannot feel it's heat until you within inches of it). To you, this would seem to suggest god made the atmosphere perfect for our viewing needs. What actually happened was the eye evolved to take advantage of light in the 400-700nm range. Any eye that evolved outside this range was useless, and was never passed on. Humans are adapted to the enviroment, not the other way round.

In my honest opinion it really doesn't matter if human beings adapt to the environment or if the environment was made for human beings. Whatever way you look at it our earth can support life. For whatever reason it works. I also said that our bodies had to have a creator. So the reason our bodies adapt are because God wanted them to when he created them? Either way you look at it God knew what he was doing.

Now I know science says a lot of things about the way the human body has evolved. Some say we came from apes long ago lol. However the question I pose to you is how can life just sort of happen from none life? If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

I believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, If a candle (the sun) and a person (the earth) get too close too each other the person still gets burnt. You can't adjust when your on fire lol.

Quote from: "SSY"You simply assert our bodies are no accident. You are correct in this assetion, but for all the wrong reasons. Our bodies evolved through a multitude of tiny steps until we are as we are. Evolution is scientificaly supported, creationism is not.

I believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely. I just hope for your sake that someday when you die that I ended up being wrong and that you ended up being right. From what I've read you've thought this out pretty well. It's better than people who look at me, get confused because they don't have any answer, and just turn to insults lol. In all seriousness though there are is no downside to being a christian other than giving up some things you might not like.

Say there is no God but at the same time I've remained a christian my whole life? Wouldn't you or I have lived a great moral life? Then by some chance if all this religion stuff just happens to be true then you and I would also have been prepared for the afterlife right? Honestly I believe neither of our opinions can really be 100% proved wrong or right. It all comes down to faith. It's better to be safe than sorry after all right?

Quote from: "SSY"Venerial disease has been around even longer than religon, despite many, many attempts to destroy it, maybe we should worship that instead? the authors of the bible were not in islation from the works of their predesescors, they did not all go away and write a gospel seperatley before combining them to make one whole. Also, the bible is CHOCK full of contradictions, positivley brimming with them.

lol at the venerial disease bit. Can I support what the bible says myself? Of course not. This is one of those places where faith comes in. You or I have no way of knowing exactly what happened because neither of us lived with these men. I could be right or you could be right. Both of our views on the Bible are nothing but opinion really. As far as contradictions are concerned? I've been taught that if the Bible shows contradictions that it has simply been misinterpreted. Your taking something the wrong way.

Quote from: "SSY"your view of humanity saddens me. The only thing keeping you from lying, cheating and killing is because the magic skydaddy said so?

My view of humanity saddens you? Thats just because it's true right? You want to talk about evolution? Lets look at how sin has evolved over time. How can there be any argument against the fact that sin has just gotten worse decade after decade? How can you argue the fact that the judgment of people hasn't gotten worse over time? Hell anything thats ever been created for the good of mankind we have found a way to abuse or misuse.

Birth control for example was created so that people might plan the birth of their baby at the right time. Not so some woman can go out and cheat on her husband without the baby bump later. I mean today if a woman got knocked up and the baby was black one would have to wonder how this came about when both parents are white right lol? She can just pop her pill daily and maybe never ever get caught sleeping around. Only human beings could take something like this and turn it into something negative.

I could give you plenty more examples but I'll cut it down to my main point. Not all human beings are like this. However when in the face of temptation a lot of people these days tend to not do the right thing. Look at our government if you need more proof. It will only get worse at time goes on as well I'm afraid. Hell some places it isnt even safe to walk alone at night without being robbed, killed, or raped. Maybe all three at once. Thats the way our world is. You talk like the fact that I believe in God is silly. However if your opinion is so down to earth and real then how can you say my opinion of humanity is saddening? How can you be so optimistic about a world that promotes sex, drinking, and drugs on every channel we watch on television today? Personally I think my opinion of humanity is right on the money.

We've been taught in the the bible that one day Jesus will have a second coming to defeat evil and give humanity 1000 years of peace right? However for that to happen the world has to be completely overrun by sin. How can you say that we arent well on our way?

I haven't forgotten about you gwyn428. I've run out of time at the moment but I promise that next time I get online I'll give my rebuttle to you as well.  God Bless.

Quote from: "wesmel06"There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated.

This is a good thing, and no one is condeming you for becoming a better person through Christianity.  However, many people live their lives thinking of others, working for other, volunteering, and following the idea of treating others how we would want to be treated without turning to a higher being for rules or answers.  You can be a good, careing, helpful and loving person without following a religion and certainly without being a Christian.  

Quote from: "wesmelo6"If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

This is a huge reason for people to follow some kind of faith.  People need to think that something is going to happen after this life.  However, for many of us the simple knowing that this is all we get, this is the time we have to learn, laugh, love and enjoy is what drives us to be good people and spend the limited amount of time we have on this earth doing good.  This is it, this is all we get, and knowing that doesn't make me think of killing myself or killing someone else, it makes me work hard at being positive, raising a caring son, and spending time with my family here and now.  I don't like to waste what time I do have, and certainly don't want to do anything to cause trouble or cause anyone else to waste theirs.  

Quote from: "welmel06"I believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

That's corect.  There is no satan.  And we tell our children to hold the memory of their mother and know they were loved.  We also teach them to be respectful now, to enjoy the time they have together, and to make every minute count.  Their mother is not in pain, not suffering, not burning in hell, and not floating around waiting to see her/him again.  

Quote from: "welmel06"I believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely.

So, no killers, murderers, sadists, or criminals in prison are Christian?  None were Christian when they committed their crimes?  Hmmm, are the molesting Priests not Christian? Yikes, 94% of the population is religious and believes in God, and the prison population is massive...prisons are full of non-believers, but I guess that's okay because they can repent and all is well again.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Well I see I'm certainly going to be doing a lot of typing here today. I'll start with SSY and move on to gwyn428 a little bit later.

 There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated. Why anyone would be upset that someone believes in christianity is a mystery to me. Christianity is one of the best religions as far as morals are concerned. It doesn't promote killing, stealing, drug abuse, selfishness, or anything else that is ruining our society today. Wether people believe God to be real or not it's pretty clear that christianity has nothing but good intentions. Not like other religions like Islam where killing others in the name of your faith is a great honor.

No, christianity is bankrupt as far as morals is concerned. The only reason yo are nice people is to secure your place in heaven, I am nice to people because of empathy and mutual understanding. Christianity has also commited barbaric acts, like the crusades, the spanish inquisition etc. Christianities intention is to control you and make you do as it says while coverting others.

QuoteHere is something I really want you and everyone else to think over. When I'm asked if something is right or wrong I look at it like this. If everyone did it or was a believer in it would the world be a great place for all of us to live? As far as christianity is concerned the answer to that simple question would be yes. Other religions like Islam? They do things called honor killings. If a woman is raped they look at it like she has disgraced her family. Like she is unclean or something. She then has the choice of being killed or killing herself in the name of Islam in some type of terrorist attack like 9/11 for example. Is the answer the same for religions like Islam? The answer to that question of course is no.

The catagorical imperative is an old idea, not in any way exlcusive or dependant on christianity. Your statement that everyone would be happy if only they were christian is almost too wrong to even address, suffice to say, thinking like that led has led to many of the worst atrocities in human history. I agree, Islam is a pretty sucky religon, however, you worship the same god, have the same prophets etc. Just becuase another religon is pretty bad, does not make your religion correct.

QuoteIn my honest opinion it really doesn't matter if human beings adapt to the environment or if the environment was made for human beings. Whatever way you look at it our earth can support life. For whatever reason it works. I also said that our bodies had to have a creator. So the reason our bodies adapt are because God wanted them to when he created them? Either way you look at it God knew what he was doing.

So now your argument changes. The reason it works is evolution, bodies that did not fit in the enviroment died, so we adapted to it. No god is needed in this process.

QuoteNow I know science says a lot of things about the way the human body has evolved. Some say we came from apes long ago lol. However the question I pose to you is how can life just sort of happen from none life? If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

Abiogenesis is still a mystery to modern science, though we are fast making process ( see the science forum for details ). Science is happy to say we dont know YET. Making up some arbitary explanation to it is really no explanation at all. If a scientist turned around and said a gaint unicorn created the first cell, would that be a satisfactory answer? No? Well that is what Christianity says, there is as much evidence for each of those processes.

Just becuase you want somehting to be true, does not make it true. I really, really want to be married to Angelina Jolie, I can keep hoping it will happen, but odds are, its not going to happen. Just becuase you want there to be an afterlife, does not mean there will be an afterlife. Th reason i dont go on a killing spree and then kill myself is becuase I have things I still want to do. I have a nice beef joint in the fridge, killing myself would preclude me from cooking it tommorrow. I also realise that killing others may stop them eating their own delicious food tommorrow, so i refrain in order not to hurt them. Aside from both of those reason, why would I want to kill people anyway? Becuase life is finite, it sends the mesage to cherish every second you have, better yourself, learn things, experience the world, create and receive as much love as possible.

QuoteI believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

what you beleive is irrelavent if you do not have evidence for it. As for my future wife dieing, I will teach my kids to cherish ehr memory, they will know they were loved, and it will highlight to them just how precious life really is.

QuoteBTW, If a candle (the sun) and a person (the earth) get too close too each other the person still gets burnt. You can't adjust when your on fire lol.

Aside from massivley missing the point of that example, you also ignored my previous point. If the earth was a s close to the sun as mercury, we would not be around to wonder why the earth is so well placed, the question presupposes the answer.

QuoteI believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely. I just hope for your sake that someday when you die that I ended up being wrong and that you ended up being right. From what I've read you've thought this out pretty well. It's better than people who look at me, get confused because they don't have any answer, and just turn to insults lol. In all seriousness though there are is no downside to being a christian other than giving up some things you might not like.

Being a christian looks pretty awful to me. you are blinkered, you have to experience the world through a very narrow god tinted window, you have to abide by all these crazy laws ( no work on a sundaay? what? I need to fix my lawnmower this weekend ), you can never experience the full joy of human existance.

QuoteSay there is no God but at the same time I've remained a christian my whole life? Wouldn't you or I have lived a great moral life? Then by some chance if all this religion stuff just happens to be true then you and I would also have been prepared for the afterlife right? Honestly I believe neither of our opinions can really be 100% proved wrong or right. It all comes down to faith. It's better to be safe than sorry after all right?

Pascals wager is an awful fallacy. Faith is perhaps the stupidest justification for anything. Having faith does not make something real, it makes you deluded.

Quotelol at the venerial disease bit. Can I support what the bible says myself? Of course not. This is one of those places where faith comes in. You or I have no way of knowing exactly what happened because neither of us lived with these men. I could be right or you could be right. Both of our views on the Bible are nothing but opinion really. As far as contradictions are concerned? I've been taught that if the Bible shows contradictions that it has simply been misinterpreted. Your taking something the wrong way.

Faith, again. Your right, we cant for sure know how they wrote the bible, this is why I dont base belief on random guesswork about whether or not they read each other's work.

QuoteMy view of humanity saddens you? Thats just because it's true right? You want to talk about evolution? Lets look at how sin has evolved over time. How can there be any argument against the fact that sin has just gotten worse decade after decade? How can you argue the fact that the judgment of people hasn't gotten worse over time? Hell anything thats ever been created for the good of mankind we have found a way to abuse or misuse.

No, it saddens me, becuase if your view of humanity was correct, it would preclude pretty much everyone from being happy. Actually, I could say we now live in the msot enlightened times of our history. We have schooling, policing and healthcare available to all. We live in a society were people have better quality of life than any imagined possible just a hundred years ago.

QuoteBirth control for example was created so that people might plan the birth of their baby at the right time. Not so some woman can go out and cheat on her husband without the baby bump later. I mean today if a woman got knocked up and the baby was black one would have to wonder how this came about when both parents are white right lol? She can just pop her pill daily and maybe never ever get caught sleeping around. Only human beings could take something like this and turn it into something negative.

What? some people cheat on their spouse, so god must exist? run that by me again.

QuoteI could give you plenty more examples but I'll cut it down to my main point. Not all human beings are like this. However when in the face of temptation a lot of people these days tend to not do the right thing. Look at our government if you need more proof. It will only get worse at time goes on as well I'm afraid. Hell some places it isnt even safe to walk alone at night without being robbed, killed, or raped. Maybe all three at once. Thats the way our world is. You talk like the fact that I believe in God is silly. However if your opinion is so down to earth and real then how can you say my opinion of humanity is saddening? How can you be so optimistic about a world that promotes sex, drinking, and drugs on every channel we watch on television today? Personally I think my opinion of humanity is right on the money.

I am optimistic becuase while a few people indulge in crime, the vast majority do not, as a unified group of people we have the power to move forwards and better ourselves and our world. Even if the world was awful, why is that a proof for god? i think you will find your preacher emphasises these elemtns in order to give you someone to look down on and feel holy.

This doesn't work when talking to atheists:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages43.fotki.com%2Fv1438%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6145789%2Fbreakthecycle-vi.jpg&hash=a386cce5a75d39bbc1bf2bfb9ff0ce6ea5c2363d)

I understand, wesmel06, that you feel you can do a lot of good by helping us godless heathens find Christ. That maybe, just maybe, if you tell us how you came to god that maybe, just maybe, we'll see the errors of our ways. So, just to save you some time and effort, here's a little list taken from our "For theists: what is an atheist? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830)" thread:

• An atheist is not someone who hates god.
• An atheist is not a devil worshiper.
• An atheist is not rebelling against religion or god.
• An atheist is not under the control of some devil.
• An atheist is not something that doesn’t exist.
• An atheist is, in general, not immoral.
• An atheist is not someone who believes in nothing.

You're making a very common, very easy mistake for the faithful to make: you begin with the desired result(God), and re-work the method to fit (reality).

Quote from: "wesmel06"We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now?

You see it as depressing. We see it as a mandate to live fulfilling, happy, exciting, loving lives while we can. The entire concept of a Christian afterlife is ludicrous, to start. Heaven, as Christians see it, would be the most mind-numblingly boring existence the human mind can fathom. If you would like elaboration on that, I'll provide it. However, if you'd like to end it all right now, there's really nothing stopping you. Except the Bible.

Boy, that's tricky.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Suffering In The World
Why would God allow suffering in the world? Wy does God let bad things happen to all of us? It's called free will. If someone dies in a car accident after getting hit by a drunk driver then it isn't that God couldn't stop it. It's just that it would be a violation of free will if God prevented it from happening. He can't take your beer away and say no without breaking your promise of free will now can he? Bad things happen in the world because we don't listen to God. It's just that simple really. Murder, rape, drugs, and etc God tells us not to do. We do it anyway though. We can't blame God for these things. Blame ourselves!

So, which human actions cause lightning strikes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes?  Free will?

Quote from: "wesmel06"Interesting Topic
I'm a christian so of course I'm going to have to disagree with what everyone is saying about religion being false or silly. There is evidence all around us that there is a God above. I'll get to your question a bit later. First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real. (Got some eye rolls Im sure lol)

Alright, who let messenger have a second account?  :nerd:[/quote]

Not me!

Quote from: "SSY"Sigh, i will have a crack at his,

I won't. I'll just end up like this guy ----->

Give the poor guy some room, he's giving a valuable insight into Christian thinking. wesmel06, thanks for taking the time to post all this - I'll put down my thoughts and comments in a few hours because I have to leave shortly. Just leaving a thank-you for now.  

Quote from: "toadhall"Give the poor guy some room, he's giving a valuable insight into Christian thinking. wesmel06, thanks for taking the time to post all this - I'll put down my thoughts and comments in a few hours because I have to leave shortly. Just leaving a thank-you for now.  :P

Quote from: "gwyn428"Yeah.. and science also supports the fact that our planet is flat and resting upon invisible crimson pillars. Why is it that religious people call their beloved myths facts? Have you heard from any scientist or read from a scientific book or magazine that they have found factual or tangible evidence for the existence of... name your god? Long ago people did not know what causes thunder, so they had to say that a thunder god did it. No god created our solar system... people's gods of the gaps created the solar system.

Science has an explanation for everything. It's just that we have our science and God has his science. Some theories of science have been proven correct while others have been proven wrong. Theories like the earth being flat was our science. Human beings came up with that idea and it was proven false. We make mistakes. God however never makes mistakes. When I tell you that the distance from our sun matters you would have to agree right?  When I tell you that only the earth has been proven to support human life you would have to agree right? That is God's science at work. He knows what he is doing and has a full understanding of all things. Human beings on the other hand do not have an understanding of all things. We havent even begun to get close to knowing everything there is to know in the field of science. So how can you say that the scientific theories we come up with on earth and the scientific theories God has used are the exact same thing? Any scientific theory that has failed human beings have cooked up. The earth needing sunlight to grow plants and vegatation can never be proved wrong. You all seem to be big fans of luck right? Who is to say that our scientific discoveries arent just luck? We just happened to get it right. Think about it.

Quote from: "gwyn428"I have also noticed a few times that when sperm builds up in my testicles and isn't ever used for anything, my body naturally releases some of it at night while I am alseep. CLEARLY someone's god causes this to happen..

Clearly your body is going through changes. This is called a wet dream or night wettings..lol. You younger teen boys have those from time to time. You see you have something called a scrotum which is the sack that hangs underneath your penis. These are called testicles. You kids call them nuts or balls. Gonads maybe? I don't know what you prefer. They produce testosterone and sperm. If you look closely one testicle or "ball" is slightly lower than the other. This is to prevent you from crushing your testicles together between your legs as you walk. These "balls" contain sperm as you have discovered. Once you enter puberty your balls constantly produce this liquid. The rate of production is strongly influenced by how often and how strongly you are aroused. As the sperm bulds up you will find yourself more easily stimulated. The mildest sexual thought or touch will trigger an erection. The urge for sexual release becomes stronger. Your body releases the pressure by ejaculating semen. The reason your body releases this fluid at night is because the body can only hold a certain amount of sperm at a time. As your body keeps producing sperm you need a place for it to go right? That explains why your pajamas are wet when you wake in the morning. Science explains this perfectly well. Our body was made perfectly. You have a prostate gland that helps to block off your urinary duct while your erect. It also helps to keep your ejaculatory duct closed while your using the restroom. It's crazy how everything about the human body works so well.

Now you kids had better get ready because if your having wet dreams your going to start having something called an erection next. This is when your penis gets hard. You kids sometimes call this your "thing" or "ding dong"...or just "dong". lol sorry I'm having a little too much fun with this one. I'd better just end it already. God created our bodies to work perfectly in every way. From our brains all the way down to...well you know. Your body does things for a reason. We didn't just come from nothing.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Have you even looked at anything else on the bigger picture? Wisdom teeth, poor sinus drainage, back pain, tail bone, etc. are proof of how imperfect our bodies are and how natural selection cleverly points to the fact of evolution. You'd probably just pull the "original sin card" to justify our imperfect bodies.

First of all we arent born with back pain. It comes from years of improper lifting and with age it just gets worn out from years of hard work. The tailbone? It isnt entirely useless. It's an important attachment for various muscles, tendons and ligaments. It's also for the attachment of a group of muscles important for many functions of the pelvic floor. Just do an internet search if you don't believe me. I'm no genious so I can't name every single one of them but I believe I've still made my point. Wisdom teeth? I'm really not sure. I've had mine in for years and they haven't been a problem for me yet. Poor sinus drainage? It occurs when we get sick and there are many ways to clear that problem right up. Why do we get sick? A lack of things our bodies need. Sometimes it's a lack of a certain type of vitamin. I mean if all you ever eat is candy and all you ever drink is soda then you are just asking for trouble.

Our bodies have been created perfectly but still need the right nutrients to survive and stay healthy. God has also provided us with these things. Natural cures have actually been proven to work better than medicine a doctor can give you. They cost less too. The health industry is one of the biggest scams out there. They overcharge us for medicine that can actually cause our bodies to develop other problems. Natural cures however don't have these side effects. Almost anything wrong with the body can be explained. It's just important that everyone is led in the right direction and is getting the correct information.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Snowflakes look complex too, but there isn't a designer; just temperature and humidity.

I believe we already talked about science earlier.

Quote from: "gwyn428"So this means then that Hinduism is definitely true? Aum Namah Shivaya!

I've covered Hinduism and it's flaws earlier as well.

Quote from: "gwyn428"You probably believe that the Qur'an, Sunnah, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Mahabharata were written by people who got together to create some big scams, right? I think they were, just as I also think the Bible is.

Guess what? People create big scams all the time! And why would Joseph Smith llliiieee?  

If christianity is true then that means Satan  must exist. If Satan exists then he needs ways to draw people away from christianity. False religions are made for this purpose. Scams are made all the time. However a scam usually doesn't benefit the person being tricked. Christianity teaches people to live good moral lives. Unlike other religions as I mentioned a little ways up this page. I know churches that donate money to causes all the time. Sure some people act like christians to make money which they dont use for good. However not all churches or church attending people are criminals looking to rip you off.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 have two different stories of how Judas died. Acts 1:1-12 and Luke 24:50-53 have two different locations of where Christ ascended into the sky. So far these are two contradictions.

As far as the Bible's impossibility of being fake...

Matthew 1:23 is supposed to be proof that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament, right? Wrong. The passage of Isaiah 7:14 in its original Hebrew text says that a young woman, not a virgin, shall give birth to a child named Immanuel. The word for young woman, Almah, was used instead of the word for virgin which is Betulah. Other passages in the Old Testament where virgins are mentioned always use Betulah. There is no prophecy of a virgin birth. Also, consider the context of Isaiah 7:14; the sign was for King Ahaz, who died over 200 years before Jesus came around. So how would he had been able to see Jesus... whom was not even named Immanuel?

My observance is that the Bible is flawed just like all other sacred texts.

The Bible has no contradictions. (You start laughing like..can you believe this guy lol) You have misunderstood what you were reading. Matthew 27:5 does say he hung himself. However Acts 1:18 does not disagree with that. Acts 1:18 describes what happened after Judas had hung himself. He fell headlong which means a hanging. His body began to decay as it hung from the rope. Eventually his corpse fell and “burst asunder” when it hit the ground. That means that he literally burst apart. You see what I'm trying to say? The Bible is a hard book to read for a man of any age. I once was so confused about reading The Bible because not all of it can be taken literally.  Some of it is metaphorical. 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth he even spoke to the people in parables when was teaching them something. You really have to think about what a certain book is saying.

Quote from: "gwyn428"You have just expressed that God is not omnipotent or all-powerful. So, why continue your belief in something that is not perfect? It does not make sense to me that an omnipotent god would refuse to prevent sin even though he hates it with a passion.

God does hate sin yet he allows it for us. When we experience something in life we are meant to learn from it. How are people suppose to learn that sin is bad if they don't experience sin first hand? If your young and your friend (satans tool to trick you) tells you that drinking alcohol is sooo awesome you might decide to use it. Your parents (God) tells you that alcohol won't do anything for you but get you into trouble. You have two roads to go. You can choose sin and try the alcohol or you can listen to God and stay away from it. You think about it and decide to give it a try. Years later after your second divorce related to alcohol abuse you conclude that your parents (God) was correct. Your parents didnt like you drinking but when you become a certain age they cant stop you. If they take it away you just want it more. God wants you to experience sin and learn from it for yourself. If someone just tells you something you can't 100% be sure that they are correct. Your parents (God) when you quit drinking are happy for you and still love you despite your bad decision.

I think thats a perfect example of how God warns his children of Satan and sin. When people try it for themselves out of curiousity, peer pressure, or whatever Satans tool might be, they eventually see the darkside to it. They repent and admit how much of a mistakes they have made. God loved you before your problem and still loves you after.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Why is it that Christians think that the human race was given the Ten Commandments? It was given to the people Israel and it only concerned them. No where in your New Testament does it say that Christians must follow the Ten Commandments. Observance of the Shabbat Day occurs from Friday evening to Saturday evening and you cannot work or kindle a flame. Do Christians carefully observe this? Of course not. The Ten Commandments by the way were an introduction to 600+ more commandments. Some of them say that men must wear white/blue tassels on the four corners of their garments and that you must recite parts of the Torah morning and evening. If you are going to emphasize the Ten Commandments then you must also include the 600+ more commandments.

It's 613 commandments to be exact. Some of these however don't apply to us. Some are for men and some are for women. Hell some are for just kings or priests. Some of them only apply in Isreal or when the temple (which isnt there at the current time) is functioning. If some of these are impossible to fufill then how can we keep all of them? The 10 Commandments however are most commonly known because they always apply. There is no situation, job title, or status that voids any of the special 10. I believe though that after the messiah (Jesus Christ in his second coming) returns that all of those commandments will go back into effect though. Thats just my opinion anyway.

Quote from: "gwyn428"You seem to think that every single human being is incredibly evil.

To say that we didn't create moral values and that godidit is like saying that we did not come up with the traffic light system and so goddidit. Reason tells me that the silver rule and the golden rule are good morals to live by.

I don't think that every human being is incredibly evil. I think that every human being has the ability to do incedibly evil things. Not all human beings kill or cheat on their mates. However these days it's more and more common. Back in the earlier 1900s woman were looked down on for not getting married after they found out they were pregnant. Now? Having kids outside of marriage is perfectly normal and a lot more frequent.

There has been more death in the last 100 years of earths history than any other century on earth. Between world wars and killing on the streets there are too many deaths to count. How can you say society isnt getting worse? How bad will it be the next 100 years? To say that the world will never end means never ending wars. It means never ending death. The only way humanity can escape these things is Jesus Chris coming back. It's a story without a happy ending to think that our world is not controlled by spiritual forces. Not everyone in the world today is evil but I'd hate to see us 200 years from now.  

Quote from: "gwyn428"What is so wrong with being Altruistic and at the same time enjoying sex and good drinks?

lol I'm going to use my get out of commenting free card on this one.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Or would it just be the will of God? The NT says that God preordained some people to become saved.

Basically if you want to go to heaven then your free to accept jesus as your savior. No one was ever picked up and carried into heaven kicking and screaming that they didn't want to go after all lol. You make the choice. It's as simple as it sounds.

Quote from: "gwyn428"I have heard converts to Islam and Vaishnavism say this.

You have to test the spirits. Make sure God is calling you. Not Satan.

Quote from: "gwyn428"I saw an interview where a new convert to Islam claimed that the New Testament led him to the Qur'an.

Again Satan is a tricky guy. I don't know the details of his conversion so I really can't comment much on this. Oh well. Thats just less typing for me.

Quote from: "gwyn428"Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Wicca, and all other religions do not both me in any quantity of being bothersome. As far as a god calling me, well, I could of swore that I heard J.R. "Bob" Dobbs calling me to send him $30 in order to get right with him before July 5, 1998 arrives.  

God said that there would be false prophets. You just happened to run across one of them. Like I said people are capable of evil things. This man is one of them. Not all christians are out to steal your money for themselves though you know.

Quote from: "gwyn428"I don't swing that way.

Thats not what I heard... lol

I'll reply to the rest of you when I get more time.

Quote from: "wesmel06"This is a very good point. Your absolutely correct when you say that all of these different religions THINK that they are the one true religion. My religion (Christianity) and those other religions have our beliefs and we are always going to stick to them. However there is a difference in the way that these religions will try and deal with that fact. I for example can tell you why you should become a christian. I could give you the testimonies of 100 people that think they have felt God's love/power. However those will just be labeled as coincidences or just plain luck to many of you. I'm not going to go out and fly a plain into a building just because you don't believe me though. I'm not going to torture or kill you because you won't accept my ways of thinking. Other religions arent so kind to non believers.

Wow. You turned me off to your "point" you were trying to make entirely too quickly. You may not be the type of person who will go out and forcefully try to gain believers to your religion. But to say that your religion is free from that is completely laughable. I guess you've never heard of the crusades, or the spanish inquisition. Sure, you could give testimony of 100 people that have felt your god's "love/power." I give you testimony of the estimated 1 billion people (yes, that's approximately 1/6th of the entire world) who are muslim. Do you truly think that every one of them is going to "fly a plain" (lol) into a building because I don't believe in their god? Obviously, you (a) have no concept of truly how many people there are out there, (b) don't understand or choose to ignore the history of your very-very-far-from-perfect religion, and (c) are ignorant.

I suggest you read up on the history of your religion, and get some facts, before you start spouting off this nonsense on this board. Better yet, go read the posts by messenger, and all the rebuttals to his "arguments" and realize that you're throwing out the exact same "arguments" that he was. You'll waste alot less of your time and our time in the process.

Wow, this thread has been pretty active since I last checked it. I would have had a lot to say, but others like gywn and SSY and Ihateyoumike (once again) have covered that.

Wesel106, I'm going to hold myself back from trying to point out how many things are wrong with Christianity, but I think you need to decide whether you hold onto your beliefs becasue you think they're scientifically valid or because you WANT to believe them. You went on about seeing our loved ones in an afterlife and the need for people to be punished/rewarded after death, as if what you/we desire must be so. Yeah, I think the idea that when we die that's it is a bit depressing, but 1)that's a conscious thought, if I'm dead and experience nothing than I can't be depressed about it and 2)the world/universe obviously doesn't operate on the basis of what we want.

You have your beliefs and you hold them as sacred and true, fine, but it's always a bad idea to argue from an emotional perspective. It doesn't really matter what a finite existence says about the human race, and in general the human race says far more negative things about itself in the time it's existed. I'm sure many people would be comforted to know that Hitler is being raped by fire right now, that doesn't mean he is.

And really, what could ANYBODY do within even a long (100+ year) lifespan that warrants suffering for ETERNITY. That's one of my biggest qualms with your religion, that Christians will accept that their own child might make some wrong decisions and burn in hell for eternity. Like, "Oh, I was trying to tell my child that [INSERT RANDOM FACT/THEORY], and he didn't believe me, so I locked him in the oven on full blast, and I'm never letting him out." "Oh that amkes perfect sense, Tom, how dare he not beleive you?"  That's perfectly acceptable, yet a finite existence isn't?

One last thing, Wesel106, the way you explained the contradictions in the Bible is SUCH a cop-out.For instance, it NEVER says anything about Judas rotting and falling from his noose, and besides that it says he fell HEADLONG, which doesn't make any sense if he was hanging from a noose. And how could he have purchased a field with the reward for his wickedness if he immediately flung the silver and hung himself? You claim people don't read the Bible correctly, well the only way to do so by my estimation is to completely suspend one's disbelief and accept multiple realities.

OK, I am going to point out a bunch of things that are wrong with your religion, it's really nagging at me that you candy coat the whole thing.

1)God commanded that uncircumsized children be cut off from society, presumably abandoned to die, for breaking his covenant.
2)God commanded that anyone who worked on the Sabbath, even just to kindle a fire, be put to death.
3)God commanded that homosexuals be killed.
4)Handicapped people were not allowed to approach an alter becasue they would "profane it".
5)Despite scriptures that claim God is not a jealous God, he would get jealous and kill you for worshipping another god.
6)God commanded that those with different religious beliefs be killed.
7)God "aborted" quite a few innocent children just to teach their parents a lesson.

OK, that's enough, I could go on forever and ultimately it won't make a difference. I'm gonna go watch House, MD.

Quote from: "wesmel06"This is a very good point. Your absolutely correct when you say that all of these different religions THINK that they are the one true religion.

And I feel the same way about your religion too. Seriously, there is no one true religion. The concept seems to pathetic.

Quote from: "wesmel06"I for example can tell you why you should become a christian. I could give you the testimonies of 100 people that think they have felt God's love/power. However those will just be labeled as coincidences or just plain luck to many of you. I'm not going to go out and fly a plain into a building just because you don't believe me though. I'm not going to torture or kill you because you won't accept my ways of thinking. Other religions arent so kind to non believers.

I'll tell you right now that you have no need to try to convince me to become a Christian. The concept of God is illogical, contradictory, and nonsensical. Not to mention that I am not prepared to give up Reason, the facts I know, and neither am I interested in feeling guilty about myself looking at women and undressing them with my eyes.

There are testimonies of people feeling the so called love and the so called power of many gods. It's all in their heads. Seriously, I could of sworn that I felt the power of the Invisible Pink Unicorn until I realized she's a product of humankind, just like all gods are.

Your religion, by the way, doesn't have a good history of kindness to nonbelievers.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Islam as I already highlighted will do pretty well anything to convert you to their religion. First they'll preach to you why you should join them. They'll tell you about the Prophet Muhammad and The Quran. If you don't want to listen they'll torture you. If that isnt enough they'll just kill you. If there is a large group opposing Islam they'll go off on suicide missions trying to cripple those forces that might oppose them. Things I've read about what islamic nations do to people who will not conform are horrible.

Christianity had this in common for a while.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Hinduism is the worlds third largest religion behind Christianity & Islam. Hinduism isn't known for it's terrorist attacks but there is a down side. The religion doesn't have a specific theological system or even a single system of morality. It consists of thousands of different religious groups (including the Hare Krishnas) who really don't agree with one another. How can this be the one true religion if there isn't even a single set of beliefs? Have you ever read about The Caste System? It's basically the split up of everyone into a couple of different groups. You have Brahmins which are basically priests and teachers. You have Kshatriyas who are the military that rules over everyone. Vaishyas are people like farmers & merchants. Sudras are the peasants. They serve the other groups. Lastly you have The Dalit. They are considered outcasts.They arent even considered a part of the system. This system causes there to be a lot of discrimination. Hell some Hindu people have even converted to christianity and other religions just to escape this type of system. Due to anger within the religion murder has been known to occur. Some religion huh?

"Hinduism" by the way was a term made up by the British Raj. Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, Smartism, and other religions do not reveal that Hinduism is a mess; they just reveal that India has a rich history of religion. The Caste System is nowhere found in any of the sacred texts of the Hindu religions. So you can't equate poor social ideas with religion. Trust me, I probably know more about Indian religion than you do; I used to be a follower of Vaishnavism, I was in association with a guru, and I read alot of literature.

Christianity has way too many denominations, people cannot agree with each other over many things, and it has a history of inhumane reign. Some religion huh?

Quote from: "wesmel06"If the only religion in the world was christianity would the world be a good place to live? Yes! How about Islam or Hinduism? No. Now you might rationalize this like christianity is just the best of many false religions but I disagree. In christianity we are taught to be the one true religion. All other religions are just an attempt from Satan to pull us away from our lord and savior Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?

Christianity would not guarantee world peace. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus have said the same thing you just said.

Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and all other "true religions" claim that a cosmic boogey man invents false religions to pull people away from their prefered god.

Come on.. you have to do better than that.

Quote from: "wesmel06"While that comment is amusing to me it's completely different from what I'm saying. Is the survival of humanity at stake because water falls into an opening or creates a puddle? No. If the earth was hugging the sun would humanity have a problem? Absolutely lol. I believe God is more concerned with our overall survival compared to where some water lands after it rains or if water fits perfectly into the crack in the pavement. Does God put it there? I'm not at liberty to say. I'm not God. Maybe if you convert someday you can ask him?  :|

Quote from: "wesmel06"It's just that we have our science and God has his science.

Science is used for understanding how things in our natural world work. God has his science too? Wow.. he must not understand the natural world. Why worship him?  :lol:

God never makes mistakes? Wow.. did you skip that story in Genesis about Noah?

Quote from: "wesmel06"So how can you say that the scientific theories we come up with on earth and the scientific theories God has used are the exact same thing?

I never even said that..  :lol:

Quote from: "wesmel06"Clearly your body is going through changes. This is called a wet dream or night wettings..lol. You younger teen boys have those from time to time.

I am 21 years of age.  :raised:

Quote from: "wesmel06"It's 613 commandments to be exact.

That's what the Rabbinical Jews claim. Qara'im, or scripture reading Jews, say that it is not 613 commandments.

Quote from: "wesmel06"The 10 Commandments however are most commonly known because they always apply. There is no situation, job title, or status that voids any of the special 10. I believe though that after the messiah (Jesus Christ in his second coming) returns that all of those commandments will go back into effect though. Thats just my opinion anyway.

Most jobs and statuses do not demand that we not worship graven images and not work from Friday-Saturday evening and not to kindle a flame. You apparently don't know anything, do you?

By the way, the NT does not command you to take the Ten Commandments to heart. Jesus taught two special commandments. Read your bibble.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Back in the earlier 1900s woman were looked down on for not getting married after they found out they were pregnant. Now? Having kids outside of marriage is perfectly normal and a lot more frequent.

I take it you believe in traditonal marriage?  

Watch Penn & Teller's episode of Bullshit! about the traditional family. You will learn alot.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Basically if you want to go to heaven then your free to accept jesus as your savior. No one was ever picked up and carried into heaven kicking and screaming that they didn't want to go after all lol. You make the choice. It's as simple as it sounds.

Hogwash!

Read Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 9:15-16

Look for the Invisible Pink Unicorn in your heart. <3

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages28.fotki.com%2Fv1032%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2Foh_snap-vi.gif&hash=9a1448d5e819d223250fc379a8cd2ae93bed2aeb)

The bible is full of contradictions and is also hilarious

1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  
1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.  
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.  
 So there is a giant bal of water surrounding the earth?

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.  
7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.  
7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
   (7:13-14) All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." [more]
 
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.  

God made it rain by letting tis water through heaven? There were 2 of EVERY creature in the ark?

from jonah

1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

what?


from matthew

13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:  (13:31-32) "The least of all seeds"
Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The epiphytic orchids have the smallest seeds.) And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into trees large enough to support bird nests.  
13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.  


From corrinthians

15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Wow, that makes sense.

Hebrews says  

1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:  "Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth."
God set the earth on a foundation; therefore, it does not move.  
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

See, the bible is full of things that dont make sense, you have to try really, really hard to rationalise them.

wesmel06, about your "Solar system" segment,
From what I see the assertions are:
a. that conditions are perfect for our comfortable living;
b. that such perfection is improbable, approaching the point of impossibility;
c. that the occurrence of an extremely unlikely event such as this is evidence of influence by an independent will;
d. that the independent will is the Christian god
Here is what comes to my mind with about argument:
1. The first premise I can accept as reasonable; the Earth is perfect for humans to inhabit. All natural requirements for our comfortable living are fulfilled.
2. As for b â€" From what I know, there is no way to prove, as far as modern science goes, just how improbable it is that the situation for humanity is as it stands. We just don't know enough about the vast and complex universe. Ignorance of other solar systems and the sheer number of them in existence further helps to muddle us - we only know our own is lucky enough to harbor an intelligent life-form.
The case may be the same for the young of creatures who lay large numbers of eggs. Most of the young inside the eggs will not live past a certain period; even less past a later period. It is the one that does survive which may say, "Look, we survived against all the odds - there must be an independent will intervening for us". In the case of pure chance, it was highly probable that one of those eggs would survive - but highly improbable it would be that particular one. Instead of looking at the improbable perfection of its own successful birth process, it would be better to acknowledge the probable perfection of one successful birth process.
3. I have no problems with premise c. I think that the more unlikely an occurring event is, the more reason to believe it may not have been the result of pure chance.
4. Premise d I don’t think should be assumed because it is outside the scope of this topic. An extremely unlikely outcome of a given event, as it appears to humanity, may have been the work of a higher will but from there no more assumptions should be made.

Wesmel106, I have to say, you are getting OWNED in this thread, particularly by SSY and Gwyn, and part of me keeps wanting to feel kind of bad, especially as someone who's more on the agnostic end of atheism. I just can't, though, as most of what you've said reinforces the hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of religious "logic". You've expressed almost every stereotypical, canned Christian response in the book, and its disappointing, because I honestly WOULD like to see even a remotely comprehensible take on the dilemma in my opening. I was, admittedly, not really expecting one, but I was open to having my expectations shattered. Not so much now. It seems cognitive dissonance is inseperable from religious thinking, as you seem completely blind to the contradictions and essentially evil aspects of the Bible. Believing in a creator and spiritual themes is one thing, but when you start claiming that the Bible is some infallible, sweet natured guidebook you lose your ability to rationally explain why what I said is wrong. It's very simple: Your God is omni-everything, so that includes omni-accountable. He KNOWINGLY created a scenario in which a majority of his little creatures will BURN forever simply for not believing the "right thing". that's what it all comes down to, because according to Christianity a person who spends their whole life causing suffering and even steering others towards hell can simply say "I believe that Jesus is the son of god, yada yada yada" and attain salvation, but a little old lady who never hurt anyone in her life will suffer for eternity because she beleived in evolution. Yet you ACTUALLY tried to make it sound as though the purpose of heaven and hell was reward/punishment system for attrocities committed on earth. Much like the way you claim the Bible has to be read a certain way to be understood, you would actually have to alter your views on morals, love, and justice to sync yourself up with God's ways, which according to the Bible are cruel, contradictory, rascist, misogynistic...in a word, PRIMITIVE.

A world of nothing but Christians would be like a paradise? Sorry, buddy, I'm a misanthrope, and I believe that in such an unlikely scenario MORE attrocities would  be committed if the Bible in its current form was the lawbook or "Constitution" of such a world. Look at how divided the Christians are even NOW, and what would happen to the odd non-believer in such a world? Hmm, an entire world of people whose lawbook justifies killing non-believers? Homosexuals would be dangling from nooses in the streets. If you think I'm being unfair, bear in mind that, as a misanthrope, I believe that almost any idealogy and a majority of humans to back it up is potetnially dangerous to an "outsider", a world full of atheists could be dangerous to a spiritual thinker. There is no perfect fix for humanity, ESPECIALLY not a religion built on a book rife with horrific, intolerant rules.

Alright I'm so far behind in this thread that it would literally take me a day or two to break down everything that has been said here. Since I don't have that amount of time I'm going to just highlight some of the points you've all tried to make. I won't quote anyone but since all of you pretty well bring up the same stuff I'll focus on the major points.

Christianity Being Violent/Scams/Etc
As far as Christianity being violent is concerned I would have to disagree. Christianity today does not condone murder, rape, stealing, or anything else that could be called wrong. Most christian people I know won't speak a curse word or say God's name in vain let alone go out and do any of those things like murder that I just mentioned. Do people have flaws? Yes. Do people make mistakes? Of course. However just because christian people arent perfect doesn't mean that christianity is a false religion. Thats why we repent and pray for forgiveness because we have walked off of our christian paths. It isn't christianity making christians mess up sometimes. It's humanity being..well..human.

My church holds fundraisers for causes all the time and I can assure you this is legitimate due to all the thank you letters we have recieved from different causes. Some ministries even go overseas to teach people about the gospel who don't have the resources to do so themselves. They feed the hungry and build shelters/hospitals for them too.

Men who cook up scams to make money off of christianity arent even christians. There is a difference in someone saying that they are a christian and actually being one. If you want to invest money in religion give it to a church. Not some nut who thinks he knows when the second coming of Jesus will happen. Anyone who falls for those scams are either uneducated or just plain silly. Giving your money to a church is a much better bet.

As far as homosexuals being hung in the street? That isn't supported by any of our christian beliefs. If someone is a homosexual that is their decision. I know people who are homosexual and I don't treat them any different than anyone else. It's not my place to judge them. The only true judge in my honest opinion is the most high God himself.

Now as far as your history lesson is concerned I'll gladly comment. The Spanish Inquisition was a group that went about converting people the entirely wrong way. It wasn't all christians as you make it sound. It was just a group of people calling themselves christians.

You see Spain is a nation that was born out of religious struggles between numerous different belief systems. In 1478 the inquisition was started to purify the people of Spain and to unify the country. Torquemada was responsible for establishing the rules of inquisitorial procedure. These rules werent from Christianity. They were from a single leader. So how can you blame Christianity when it's obvious that this group of people were just being mislead by a leader who did not the follow the commandments that Christians are suppose to? How can you say that Christianity is false at least in this instance when it's obvious that no real christian principals were being used during this inquisition? You can't. You see the inquisiton wasn't just about religion. It was also about politics and control. A certain group wanted to dominate all the others. Not just dominate but eliminate them.

Let me remind you of World War 2. The Nazi's wanted to rule over Germany. How did they end up taking power? They blamed other religions/groups as the reason Germany wasn't great. They decided that the Jews were the problem. Then if you have a dictator in control of this (Adolf Hitler) who is charismatic and has enough power this group can do whatever they want. So what did they do? They built their camps and tried to eliminate their enemies. Sounds a little familiar doesn't it? Just like the Nazis the Inquisition wanted to rule over everyone else. Religion was just a way of developing a following. Bringing people to their "christianity" wasn't the main purpose of the inquisition.

I know as athiests on this forum you want to prove that christianity isnt real. I know that a christian coming into your house and promoting christianity is like nails on a chalkboard. However all you have done is highlight points which make christianity seem negative. Not all of them I believe to be true either. What about all the good that has come from christianity? Would you wish away all the lives saved because of christianity? That little kid in Africa that was fed because a christian ministry went there to make a difference is obviously just a myth like everything else right? All christians would have to be people who kill/discriminate against others because some group gave them a bad name centuries ago right? I mean if one single guy thinks he knows when Jesus will come back then the entire religion that is Christianity must agree with his ways of thinking. It isn't possible for anyone else in the religion to maybe  think differently and not want to scam people. lol please....

Let me explain that I think that all of you are obviously well educated on the subject. I'd rather debate all of you than someone who has no knowledge on the subject and just resorts to insults when they get stuck in a corner. However I think you guys, as smart as you are, are missing the entire point of christianity. It isn't about one religion being better than all of the others despite the fact that I do believe that to be true. It isn't about one group of people being right while another is wrong. It's about loving one another. It's about doing good for other people. Not killing them if they don't convert lol. When I say that if everyone was a christian that the world would be a great place to live I mean it. What about the non believers who won't convert? Well just let them be. It's their decision. We arent the ones who are suppose to judge you anyway. That is reserved only for God. I mean just because we don't agree with Islam doesn't mean we are going to bomb the hell out of their countries lol. Islam on the other hand for no reason at all decided they wanted to try to cripple the United States. Whats that saying about Islam comparing it to Christianity?

Lets look at Jesus as an example. He is the only christian to never stray off of the christian path. He converted people not by torture or murder but by love. This is much different from the way your spanish inquisiton did things. If Jesus in a way is christianity itself then how can you say that Jesus/The Inquisition came from the same religion? Obviously they had different ways of doing things. Jesus was a true christian. Others just use christianity in a way that will benefit them or their causes which doesn't make them true christian followers.

My point? When you think of Christianity I want you to picture Jesus Christ. That is christianity in it's true form. Jesus Christ would never have given permission to kill anyone that did not convert. It wasnt a true christian belief. Get it?

Something We Havent Talked About Yet
My mother has worked in a nursing home almost her entire life. You know what that means? My mother is around death all of the time. She has witnessed more deaths than she can count over the years. She's told me stories about some of these deaths as well. Some of them are scary while others are heartwarming. I promise I have a point lol.

One time my mother told me about a man who had just passed on in the nursing home. The entire day the man was frightened she said. She claimed that he kept yelling crazy things to her. Things like "Please dont let them take me". Later that day the man passed away. How can you explain that? Was it just his old age making him see things? Was the old man just crazy? Lets look at some more of these stories before we decide.

Another time my mother told me of another man she was taking care of. He had passed away but had been brought back. She tells me that once he was brought back that the man was very shaken up. He claimed that when he had died that he was going to hell. Shortly after all of this the man was baptised and started reading the bible. How do you explain that? Even though the man literally died did his brain just jump out of his body, reconnect with his soul, and make him believe that he was going to a fictional place called hell lol? I don't think thats possible. Were the people in the room that revived him just dreaming that the man had died? They all had the same illusion? Yeah right lol. Moving on...

This will be the last story by the way. My mother also told me about a woman she took care of in her nursing home. The woman kept telling my mother that she could see her husband. She told my mother that she would die soon and go to be with her husband. The very next day she passed away. Was it true or was this just a good guess?

When your around death all of the time you see things that other people just dont. How can you explain all of these stories? How can you prove that they didnt happen? You can't. So is it so hard to believe that some questions human beings just dont have an answer for? Try to convince any men/woman who work at hospitals/nursing homes that God is made up and they'll find it very hard to believe. How can you explain the fact that a person dies with a slight smile on their face? Is it because they are happy to finally be dead or because there is something great waiting for them on the other side?

Athiest View On Life/No Afterlife
One of you said "Becuase life is finite, it sends the message to cherish every second you have, better yourself, learn things, experience the world, create and receive as much love as possible." That might work for you but what about other people? Not everyone would live their lives this way if they believed that God wasn't real. You seem to take the news rather well but since not all of us think alike how would others react?

Lets say someone lost their entire family in a car accident. They are depressed and don't have anything to live for. If there isn't a heaven where you will get to see your family again then why wouldn't that person just end it? Your telling me that after losing your entire family you would want to get out and experience new things and better yourself lol? If there is a heaven you have a reason to remain alive and to live with zeal. Not the other way around. Heaven in a way is hope. Nothing after death is the exact opposite..hopeless.

I'm sure out there somewhere is a person who is holding on just because of religion. I mean if you've messed up your life terribly then at least you can still repent and go to heaven. Someone spoke of christians in prison earlier right? What hope do they have if they have life in prison? At least if they repent and change their evil ways they can still go to heaven right? They arent just done for like you would have them believe. I think your way of thinking only works for people who don't make a lot of mistakes lol. Or for people who are lucky enough to not have terrible things happen to them on accident. I think that in a way is kind of living in a fantasy world where people are free to just do as they please with no one ever doing anything bad because it would mess up anothers earth experience lol. I'm sorry if I sound a little sarcastic but that doesnt sound right to me. I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

Athiests: He's crazy because he thinks there is a god.
Wesmel06: They have to be crazy. They think life is an amusement park.

God Allowing Sin
Someone didn't understand what I was saying about this earlier so I'll cover it one more time. "I thought god hated sin?" Yes your right he does. However he wants us to hate sin as well. How do we learn to hate sin? We experience it. If your father (God) told you that drinking is bad how would you know it was bad if you didnt try it? I mean tons of other people do it too right? It can't be that bad if a lot of people seem to enjoy it. You try alcohol and end up in a wheelchair after a drunk driving accident. Yeah..dad (God) was right. You sinned and you have to deal with the results afterwards. However in heaven someday you'll get your legs back. The results of that sin arent forever if you repent and change. God still loves you even though you make mistakes and dont always listen to him.

Miss Anthrope also commented on this subject. I know it's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that a little old lady might burn in hell if she isnt a believer. However is she sinless? The answer is no. Everyone has commited a sin at one time or another. By accepting christ your sins are wiped clean. I mean really changing the way you live too. Not just accepting christ and then go out and beat the hell out of someone or cheat on your girlfriend lol.

As far as a parent locking their child in the oven for all eternity..lol..I've been taught that we are not children of God until we accept Christ as our savior. Becoming a child of god is our decision. God does everything he can to try and point you in the right direction. However you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Becoming a child of god is something that God wants you to decide to do. Not something he can force you to do. You can't say that people arent informed about some type of religion either. Christianity is preached all over the globe. It isnt like God doesnt tell us how to save ourselves from hell.

I'm a good example of that. I wasn't raised in a christian family. I didnt even care that a God or higher being existed until I started getting more interested about the age of 20 or 21. The information is out there. All you have to do is open up your mind.

That does it for me today folks. I'm sure tommorow when I come back I'll have a crapload to catch up on as well. Now see if you all would just convert to christianity we could all stop this and find something else to do with our time. (couldnt help myself lol) Later.

Quote from: "wesmel06"I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

I'd rather live in a world without religion, violence and country music. Tough titties.

Quote from: "wesmel06"All you have to do is open up your mind.

A Christian telling freethinkers to open their minds. That's rich.

Could you please explain what you're trying to accomplish by posting this (well-meaning) drivel?

Quote from: "wesmel06"Now as far as your history lesson is concerned I'll gladly comment. The Spanish Inquisition was a group that went about converting people the entirely wrong way. It wasn't all christians as you make it sound. It was just a group of people calling themselves christians.

Any credibility you may have had left is now officially gone, in my mind. I tried, I really tried, to get myself past thinking that you were just the same as messenger and would post smarter stuff than this drivel. You let me down.

 Guess what, I don't think you and your group are christians, I think you're just a group going around calling yourself christian. Try to prove me wrong.

I just couldn't pull myself to read any farther in that post past this paragraph.

Quote from: "wesmel06"Giving your money to a church is a much better bet.

I'd prefer a secular charity that I have carefully researched.  :)

Wesel106, nobody here is missing your points, the probelm is you make too many conflicting points.

There is a difference between Christianity as you and others practice it and the guidelines set forth in the Bible. I believe you when you say you would not
condone hanging a homosexual, but the fact is YOUR BIBLE CONDONES, nay, COMMANDS IT. Could the world be a better, more peaceful place if everyone practiced certain guidelines in the Bible, sure, but as it is your religion is very double-sided and contradictory. Yet you insisted that there aren't any contradictions in the Bible, when it is FULL of them, even at the most fundamental levels. According to the Bible, the perpetrators of the Spanish inquisition were fully justified according to the Bible. In fact, considering that eternal hell fire awaits non-believers, torture is small potatoes. Your "peaceful Christianity" is worse in some respects, becasue your willing to smile and laugh with a non-beleiver and yet accept that your God will allow them to suffer forever simply for not having the right belief, a belief for which there is no proof. I can't stand the whole "Well, people all over the world are exposed to Chritianity at some point, so they have their chance to make the right decsion." thing. Consider how stubborn and deeply rooted your beliefs are, and imagine someone coming along and saying "hey, did you know that Splotzitz is the daughter of Gaia, creator of all things. Won't you accept Splotzitz into your life as your personal savior." Are you just gonna abandon your beliefs becasue of something someone tells you? Do you think you should suffer forever if you don't? It's a flimsy, petty premise.

I personally don't have an issue with the idea of a "creator" of some sorts or life after death (but I don't beleive there are any specific answers about such things, nor do I believe they would be even remotely similar to typical human constructs of such things). If there IS a god, I find it pathetic to think he's so petty that it would really matter to him if I drank some alcohol (which isn't a "sin" in and of itself, btw) or mentally undressed a girl. Imagine God watching a Christian going up to a Muslim, the peaceful type for the sake of this argument, a Muslim who was raised with his own beliefs all his life, and the Christian tells him about Jesus. The Christian has absolutely no proof to back up his claims, so wouldn't a RATIONAL, SUPER iNTELLIGENT God be able to understand how ridiculous it is to expect people to just believe something for no apparent reason. You might say, "Well, God will reveal himself if he chooses to.", something I hear from my family al the time. Well, what about the people he DOESN'T "reveal himself" to? Bad luck for them, huh, they weren't on the better side of God's abberant whimsy?

As an ex-muslim I don't know much about Christianity ather then what I.'ve seen on TV . It's interesting how similar the arguements by christians are to muslims. Of course, wesmel06 is very condemning of muslims but that's understandable. However, all the arguements he put forward are very similar to what a muslim would say..

Quote from: "flyingfox"As an ex-muslim I don't know much about Christianity ather then what I.'ve seen on TV . It's interesting how similar the arguements by christians are to muslims. Of course, wesmel06 is very condemning of muslims but that's understandable. However, all the arguements he put forward are very similar to what a muslim would say..

Yes it's interesting that some Christians have a go at me because I don't attack Islam and likewise some Muslim's defend on the basis that I know little of Islam ... I have actually debated some Muslims but I'm not good at it and the truth is I focus on Christianity because it's what I know. I have a couple of copies of the Quran but I've never read them ... reading the bible is hard enough ... both make me fall asleep!!!!

Kyu

Quote from: "wesmel06"Lets say someone lost their entire family in a car accident. They are depressed and don't have anything to live for. If there isn't a heaven where you will get to see your family again then why wouldn't that person just end it? Your telling me that after losing your entire family you would want to get out and experience new things and better yourself lol? If there is a heaven you have a reason to remain alive and to live with zeal. Not the other way around. Heaven in a way is hope. Nothing after death is the exact opposite..hopeless.

I'm sure out there somewhere is a person who is holding on just because of religion. I mean if you've messed up your life terribly then at least you can still repent and go to heaven. Someone spoke of christians in prison earlier right? What hope do they have if they have life in prison? At least if they repent and change their evil ways they can still go to heaven right? They arent just done for like you would have them believe. I think your way of thinking only works for people who don't make a lot of mistakes lol. Or for people who are lucky enough to not have terrible things happen to them on accident. I think that in a way is kind of living in a fantasy world where people are free to just do as they please with no one ever doing anything bad because it would mess up anothers earth experience lol. I'm sorry if I sound a little sarcastic but that doesnt sound right to me. I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

Comforting thought...  But it doesn't make it true.  You only illustrate that as cognizant beings, many will prefer the euphoria of delusion when confronted with "The Big Question"...  Because they fear the alternative (a.k.a. reality).  

The very thought of non-existence is so perplexing and unpleasant that for many it's best to reject the premise altogether.  In its place the weak-minded chase after beliefs that provide peace, comfort, purpose and eternal security.  In childhood this is known as "pretending".  Your statement "I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife" says it all...  You are a "comfort seeker".  And you've been brought up in the perfect religion for people who desire to seek comfort... Christianity is the crowning achievement of religious convenience - offering a "one size fits all" salvation plan (no stupid OT laws to follow or praying five times a day) - and all you have to do is just believe.  

(pause for warm fuzzy)

Christianity allows followers to cherry-pick their sacred texts.  Just read the parts of the bible you like - who cares about the rest?  Who cares about things like mass rape, genocide, the murder of children or slavery anyway?

Look wesmel, This is a flaw in YOUR thinking process - you choose to suspend critical, rational thought in order to feel better about yourself and the world you live in.  Good for you.  But do not project your inability to cope with reality onto those who remain unconvinced of the existence of an all powerful, loving, compassionate, forgiving, god who bestows infinite punishment for finite crimes upon weaker beings merely because anonymous writers from the bronze age said so.

Religious belief offers you a welcome distraction from the cold, hard truth that personal annihilation is absolutely unavoidable and 100% non-survivable.  You NEED this belief, because it anesthetizes you for that final day.  Until then...  Keep drinking the kool-aid.

Craig

To quote myself, via the Happily Free Thinkng Blog (http://happilyfreethinking.blogspot.com/):
"Ignorance has never nor will ever be blissful. Ignorance brings with it immense fear and uncertainty, and anyone that's ever reflected on the human condition knows well that fear and uncertainty that come from ignorance always result in either sadness or anger. By supporting this kind of sentiment, you're enabling an empty understanding of life and death..." and are ultimately leading to a truer suffering.

I cannot imagine a worse suffering than not allowing closure on the death of a loved one out of a misguided belief that you'll see them again.

Quote from: "I_heart_doG"Religious belief offers you a welcome distraction from the cold, hard truth that personal annihilation is absolutely unavoidable and 100% non-survivable.

I disgree with the last half of your statement. "The end" is certainly my working assumption in life, I don't live my life based on a belief in an afterlife. But scientifically, there is no way to prove that death is the end of consciousness. Bear in mind that many scientists argue that consciousness ITSELF doesn't "exist".
I would agree that there is no rational, factual basis for believing in an afterlife, but I could say the same for completely discounting it, and that's where philosophy can come in. The "heaven and hell" concept, yeah, pretty ridiculous, but if we expand our interpetation of concepts like life after death and reality in general, it actually becomes harder to decide on what the "truth" is.

An example: Some "top men" (yes, Indy fan ) beleive that before the end of the century we'll be able to create artifical consiousness and even achieve digital immortality. Someday we might have entire infitniely branching virutal universe simulations running on devices the size of a penny, populated with virtual, conscious "life". The implications of things like this are mind boggling, and bring up many philosophical questions. Is "now" REALLY 2009? Is this the "real" reality? Or let's go beyond "humans": Are you SURE you're not some entirely different being with a hyper-complex perception of time playing a virtual reality game called "Human Life", trademark of SquazzleFlub Corp, and when you die you'll leave the game and go back to work from your lunch break, "your" entire life being nothing but a memory to your "true self." In such a scenario, "you" die of course, but your "perception" lives on.

For me, an open mindedness about "life after death" is anyhting but comforting, it's actually very disturbing. I, personally, don't think an end of consciousness is even comes CLOSE to the potential horror of "immortality". Some neuroscientists believe that time and space are more accurately represented when we dream, so consider the possibility that "reality" as we consciously experience it is less "real" then "dream life". At first the idea that when we die we "wake up" permanently into an immaterial dreamstate seems like a "dream come true" (heh), but REALLY think about it. I have, and it chills me to the bone for the same
reason hallucinogenics never agreed with me.

Or consider Asimov's belief as stated in The Relativity of Wrong, he found nothing in science to disprove the existence of an afterlife, he simply didn't beleive in it because he didn't think that the human psyche could handle immortality. At the risk of sounding like I think I "know better", I have to wonder what he was thinking. If he didn't doubt that there could be some ethereal aspect of human consciousness that could survive death, than why did he limit himself to even including the "psyche", i.e. no brain - no psyche. Most people aren't psychologically equipped to handle intense lucid dreams naturally; ever notice how when you're dreaming you're not really "you" and the bizarre things that are going on seem perfectly natural? Why didn't he consider the possibility that the afterlife could be like a permanent disassosiative state, psyche-free, just "pure experience"? Once again, of course, "you" as defined by your memories, goals, preferences, etc,  don't really survive death, but your perception does (in such a scenario).

I think you have to be very careful when using terms like "cold, hard truth" and "100% non-surviveable". Nobody actually knows, and any good scientist will attest to this. We're still relatively stupid primates trying to bash open nuts with rudimentary tools. We've bearely scratched the surface of "reality".

EDIT: BTW, I apologize for my liberal use of quotation marks around many words. I use them especially with words like reality, existence, life, and other words which I feel are vague and potentially misleading when not used in a strictly defined context. Personally, I think words in general are a poor way to communicate already vague concepts. I often find that closed-mindedness seems to be the result of rigid interpretation of a word rather than a fully realized understanding of the concept in question. Even the word "afterlife" bugs me since time isn't a linear construct.

One more thing, it seems that what people who firmly believe in an afterlife have in common with those who firmly DON'T is a need to have a sense of certainty, to "make up their minds". I can understand this, I've been tempted myself. I live my life assuming that "this is it", it's the most rational way, but there always that nagging in the back of my mind reminding me that I JUST DON'T KNOW.

To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

Quote from: "SSY"To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

From a materialist standpoint, yeah, I agree as well.However, I'm undecided and doubtful that we have enough inoformation and understanding to discount holistic and dualistic interpretations of reality. Plus, there's still debate about the relation of consciousness in a reality where time doesn't actually "flow". And from a technological standpoint, if it does indeed turn out to be possible to create virtual worlds with conscious inhabitants, we really will have to reconsider how necessary our brains really are. Theroretically, you could have a character model in a game with a relaistically rendered brain which actually exhibits activity as a real brain would, but the character's AI can be completely separate code, thus having nothing to do with the model of the brain, even if it appears to. Basically, we get a brainless version of the "brain in a vat" thought experiment.

I'd like to slap all the idiots whose eyes get all glassy and their mouths start drooling whenever someone brings up the term, "Outside the Universe". As if these idiots think it's humanities ultimate goal to escape this prison here and go somewhere "outside". FUCK YOU IDIOTS! (no, not you.) Chances are if we were to even attempt to go somewhere "outside the universe" it would be so radically different that we would not be able to survive.

In fact, Since we are material beings made "in the universe" how can we go outside the "universe" without simply extending the boundaries "of the universe". These idiots make me mad...  

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"

Quote from: "SSY"To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

From a materialist standpoint, yeah, I agree as well.However, I'm undecided and doubtful that we have enough inoformation and understanding to discount holistic and dualistic interpretations of reality. Plus, there's still debate about the relation of consciousness in a reality where time doesn't actually "flow". And from a technological standpoint, if it does indeed turn out to be possible to create virtual worlds with conscious inhabitants, we really will have to reconsider how necessary our brains really are. Theroretically, you could have a character model in a game with a relaistically rendered brain which actually exhibits activity as a real brain would, but the character's AI can be completely separate code, thus having nothing to do with the model of the brain, even if it appears to. Basically, we get a brainless version of the "brain in a vat" thought experiment.

I don't really view our minds as anything other than a program running on some pretty exotic hardware. To me, a computer program has inputs, and then outputs, we are the same, inputs from senses, outputs as motor nuerone controls etc. This would place the inhabitants of a digital world on an equal level to our own level of sentience in my view.

In your example, why model a brain if it not being used to model the reactions of the creature? I would say the brain is the computer running the code, and the code is the mind/consciousness.

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"I'd like to slap all the idiots whose eyes get all glassy and their mouths start drooling whenever someone brings up the term, "Outside the Universe". As if these idiots think it's humanities ultimate goal to escape this prison here and go somewhere "outside". FUCK YOU IDIOTS! (no, not you.) Chances are if we were to even attempt to go somewhere "outside the universe" it would be so radically different that we would not be able to survive.

In fact, Since we are material beings made "in the universe" how can we go outside the "universe" without simply extending the boundaries "of the universe". These idiots make me mad...  

I agree, that's why although I maintain an open-minded view about such things (TOO open-mided actually), my working assumption is materialistic. I don't get the impression you were implying that I'm one of those glassy eyed idiots, I just want to make it clear since I'm treding on "fanciful" waters in this thread. I don't invest any "hope" in alternative views, in fact I find the implications of such things very disturbing.

Quote from: "SSY"I don't really view our minds as anything other than a program running on some pretty exotic hardware. To me, a computer program has inputs, and then outputs, we are the same, inputs from senses, outputs as motor nuerone controls etc. This would place the inhabitants of a digital world on an equal level to our own level of sentience in my view.

In your example, why model a brain if it not being used to model the reactions of the creature? I would say the brain is the computer running the code, and the code is the mind/consciousness.

Once again, I essentially agree with what you're saying, but only from a materialist standpoint and a traditional view of cause and effect.

My computer game character model was admittedly very simple. But in the context I was referring to, the mad scientist, or mad programmer in this thought experiment, would connect appropriate reactions and brain activity in accordance with the virtual creature's understanding of the apparent laws of physics, etc.
So, in a sense, for the same reason code comes together in a videogame to create the illusion that you're actually in a world with depth, light, gravity, etc; everything is simulated. So in the scenario I described, the virtually conscious creature would only be able to understand itself based on the observable laws it holds true, and would have no way to know that despite the connection between its brain activity and consciousness, the two are not one and the same, they just appear to be. Over the years I've watched science basically tell me that everything is illusory; space, time, motion, consciousness, qualia,etc, and it just got me to a point where I can't see anything as solid or factual excpet in the context of how it relates to the whole.

To put it all another way, if the brain is the computer running the code and the brain itself alters the input to create a very limited, illusory representation of reality which is tuned for survival, not full comprehension of reality, then can we really trust the computer when it comes to integrating scientific knowledge with abstract concepts?

EDIT: I'm enjoying this line of discussion immensely, but I realize that it's really going off on a tangent, so I'm going to start a thread in Philosophy if anyone cares to go there. I'll call it "Reality - Is it Real?" or something ridiculous like that.

wesmel06,

It is taking all that I have not to start this post with "your an idiot."  All of your tenets are based upon observation which is the domain of science.  Only in science a hypothesis like "look at the human body its sooo complex it has to be made by a creator" would be required to have empirical evidence to support it.  I could just as easily say, "God doesn't exist because our bodies are so frail that they can freeze in conditions considered normal in many places on earth."  For example, "God can't possible exist or people could go outside in Winnipeg during the winter without clothes on and not die."  Oh and I love the part about the bible having sooooo many authors and being written over 1500 years.  I assume that you are aware that there are over 80 gospels written, but only 4 made it into the bible.  It's funny how those 4 paint such a similar (not totally consistent but similar) picture while the other 70 plus (now known) paint such a varied and different picture of things.  I suppose that the Emperor Constantine who abridged the bible (a pagan devil) was God's agent sent to distill the holy works into a more manageable volume.  


On a personal note.  You are a person of FAITH, what the hell are you doing giving reasons.  Reason is the domain of the non-believer.  Reasons are what caused most atheists to become atheists.  Faith by definition does not require reason.  Moreover, NOT requiring any reasons is your BEST WEAPON.  You sound idiotic attempting to use reasons to persuade people that God is responsible for anything.  Stick to the old "God is perfect and the bible says it so it must be true" garbage.

Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)
Does a vessel understand his maker? Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being. You do not understand God, because you are just one of his creations. The problem here is that people always want to understand everything, and that makes this whole discussion senseless. For God is not someone you can understand or analise. The Christian faith does not make any sense, Jesus Christ does not make any sense (to those who do not know him). It doesn't have to make sense to men, that's why it is called 'faith'. We believe without seeing and understanding.
 Then why would someone be a Christian???
Because of the relationship with God. Because God calles us to come to Him. This is the deep secret. All this theology doesn't make any sense without a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you really meet Jesus, you just KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. It is not something a Christian can explain, only the Holy Spirit can show a person in his heart what is the truth. And isn't that what everybody is looking for? The truth?
Why are you trying so hard to prove the Christians to be wrong? Why would you care? Why does it make you so mad?
Because you are looking for the truth! And they claim to have it! But you just don't understand it. With all the wisdom of the world you would still not be able to understand. Because only God can reveale the truth through his spirit. The Christian faith is not a faith of the 'mind' , but of the heart and the soul. And when a human soul meets its Maker, it just knows what is the truth. And having this relationship with my God proves me that He is right. That the Bible is the truth. I've seen miracles happen, I've seen God at work. And this proves enough for me, even if I don't understand. I know one day I will understand, when I will stand before Him.

The Bible speaks:

1 Corinthians 2: 6-10
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
   "No eye has seen,
      no ear has heard,
   no mind has conceived
   what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]â€" 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
      The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Acts 4
Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin
 1The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

 5The next day the rulers, elders and teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and the other men of the high priest's family. 7They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: "By what power or what name did you do this?"

 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11He is
   " 'the stone you builders rejected,
      which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16"What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

 18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

 21After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old.
The Believers' Prayer
 23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
   " 'Why do the nations rage
      and the peoples plot in vain?
 26The kings of the earth take their stand
      and the rulers gather together
      against the Lord
      and against his Anointed One.[c]'[d] 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people[e] of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.



Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

Lisette,

What makes me mad? Well, for one, salvation is based simply on a belief for which there is no proof. That alone is incredibly unfair, that an all powerful creator will cast a soul into the pits of hell SIMPLY because they didn't make the right choice, or "guess", since "choice" is a ridiculous term in this case. You can't "choose" the right apple if the apples are invisible.

If you went up to Muslim, who's beleifs are just as real to him as your's are to you, and told him about Jesus and the Bible, do you beleive he'll go to hell if he doesn't accept what you're saying? This almighty God of yours can't understand the intricasies of the human mind and its beleif systems enough to pass a rational judgement?

Why do i care? Simple, if the Bible is correct, the majority of people who live and have lived are going to BURN FOREVER IN HELL for not understanding and believing in something that you can't even explain. When it comes down to it, God created the entire, amazing universe simply to let a littel drama play out on one little tiny rock, a drama which ultimately leads to a tiny fraction of its inhabitants going to eternal paradise while the majority must suffer forever. All becasue this allegedly all-knowing god made a mistake (that is essentially why he flooded the Earth in the story of Noah, because he regretted his flawed creation). So the majority will suffer eternally becasue god was not capable of making a truly perfect Universe, or anyhting for that matter.

God knows everything, right, even the future? That means that he HAD to have known even before any of us were born who would burn forever and who would be saved. If God knew even a billion years ago that I would not end up being one of the saved, then that means I DON'T have a choice to become saved, because if I did it would contradict God's knowledge, and then he could not be called all-knowing. This doesn't make any sense to you? You think you're saved right? But anyone can backslide, and God knows if you will or not. So if God knows the future, and he knows that you'll be one of the damned, that means there is nothing you can do to prevent it. You would probably want to say at your judgement "Please god, what about the time I WAS a beleiver?", but to your God that is not enough. You changed your belief, and so you must suffer FOREVER.

Also, suppose you had a child who did not believe. Will you be sad in heaven to know he/she is suffering eternally?  I would imagine such knowledge would be unbearable for any parent, but apparently you can't be anything but happy in an eternal paradise, so in heaven loved ones don't even matter! What a heart-warming scenario! You'll just bask in God's glory forever, so what does it matter who's suffering, right. Will you talk to your God about how unfortunate it is that your child didn't believe the right thing without experiencing any negative emotion?

Quote from: "lisette"Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Simple thing for simple people.

Did you say something about a Scotsman?  :rant:

Quote from: "lisette"Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

Yep. I found it to contain some really good suggestions on how to live life. I also found it to contain hate, spite, malice, pornography, and instructions on how to be a real prick. Atheists don't believe in God; this doesn't mean we don't believe in anything. We believe in being good to one another without having the need of an imaginary friend telling us to do so.

In truth, we do want saved, though: from the clutches of the dirty uncle that is religion.

Quote from: "lisette"(for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Simply saying that statement is blasphemy, isn't it? The one sin that your God will not forgive?

Romans 9
 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€"in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€"she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Quotelisette wrote:(for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)



Simply saying that statement is blasphemy, isn't it? The one sin that your God will not forgive?

this is not correct, the one sin that God cannot forgive is the sin against the Holy Spirit. In fact even the Bible sais that not everybody who sais that he is a Christian are real followers of Christ.

Okay, two things:

First, and I've said this before:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages43.fotki.com%2Fv1438%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6145789%2Fbreakthecycle-vi.jpg&hash=a386cce5a75d39bbc1bf2bfb9ff0ce6ea5c2363d)

And second:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages46.fotki.com%2Fv1433%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6145789%2F1229737895674-vi.jpg&hash=4218a9b8fdb107e90deaf46d8606ffbd734fecc4)

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

Quote from: "lisette"The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv1429%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2Ftomcruiselaugh-vi.gif&hash=f0609c4934bd7f5d40da5d27902aa3ee4b2b4ca9)

Quote from: "lisette"THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

I'm shocked.

Quote from: "lisette"They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

And I'm sure I'll feel just like this when it happens:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv1440%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1232599830802-vi.gif&hash=e502ab558ab2a1ff4a424913a369fdbd9a9bbb1f)

Quote from: "lisette"The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

Blasphemy is still blasphemy, which is known to be "words spoken against God." If the Bible is the word of God, right? He's perfect in every way, shape, and form, so he's earned his right to say what he wants. You have not.

I'd suggest praying for His forgiveness, but God says that such blasphemy is unpardonable. Therefore, clearly you're going to go to hell no matter what.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages43.fotki.com%2Fv1438%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6145789%2Fbreakthecycle-vi.jpg&hash=a386cce5a75d39bbc1bf2bfb9ff0ce6ea5c2363d)

Yes  

Quote from: "lisette"The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmd.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F05%2Fimg_fewgoodmen.jpg&hash=3843a74df77b7c87d14561cf959cf7cff438e348)

Quote from: "lisette"THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

Of course it doesn't. Because you don't think enough on your own to see how ridiculous your arguments are. If you could see it from an atheists perspective, you could understand.

Quote from: "lisette"They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

How cute. But we've heard it all before. Bring something new to the table for christ's sake. And hope all you want, pray for me all you want, it's not gonna do a bit of good. You know the old saying: Hope in one hand, crap in the other... see which one fills up first?

Quote from: "lisette"The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

One more time, without metaphors...

Quote from: "lisette"The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

The Bible says that Damascus shouldn't even exist right now (Isaiah 17:1). I personally invite you to make a journey to the location of that "nonexistent" city and have someone take a photo of you with today's paper to prove to the world that there is no longer such thing as Damascus.

Matthew 16:27-28 says that Jesus was to make his grand second coming within the lifetime of his followers... and it NEVER happened. Do you see him sitting on his throne in the east? Nope.

So much for the Bible being the truth.

Quote from: "lisette"THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

Congratulations, you have shown the whole world what kind of brain you have.

Quote from: "lisette"I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

Seeing and hearing something that is supposedly outside of our universe? LOLy!

Lissette,

In your writing you are saying the same things that non-believers say. "You don't understand because you don't know Jesus" and "faith is not of the mind, it's of the heart and the soul."  You make our argument for us:

We do not believe in Jesus (I assume you are of the faith that Jesus is God).

I don't have a soul, just a bunch of wiring that fires signals back and forth to my brain.

Just as you can not fatham that Jesus is real and that he spiritually touches you, we can not fatham how anyone could believe that.

he Bible is a compilation of stories written by man over time for whatever social purpose it was to serve at that time.  Using it as proof of anything to a non-believer makes no sense to us because it is a work of fiction, and not really creative fiction since many of the stories have been high-jacked from other writings.

I appreciated how you tried to explain your belief and faith in your original post in this thread, but it just is not compelling or new.  That's one of the pitfalls to religion, it can't change cause it's bound to these "books" you follow so while the rest of us are exploring and learning you all are stuck with nothing but the conflicting statements in those documents.

Quote from: "lisette"Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Are we creating a new version of Christian, because I'm kinda taking your word that you are one as equally as every other Christians.  I kinda have to when you guys disagree on how to be Christians in the first place.

Quote from: "lisette"Does a vessel understand his maker? Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being. You do not understand God, because you are just one of his creations. The problem here is that people always want to understand everything, and that makes this whole discussion senseless. For God is not someone you can understand or analise. The Christian faith does not make any sense, Jesus Christ does not make any sense (to those who do not know him). It doesn't have to make sense to men, that's why it is called 'faith'. We believe without seeing and understanding.

Does a child not understand its parents because it was made by them?  This, at the very least, demonstrates that one can create equals, and questions why God wouldn't create man with a mind capable of understanding him.  It'd be sort of like genetically engineering people deliberately limited mental faculties and then asking them to factor advanced trig functions.  Further, a computer does not understand the human mind yet.  What happens when we build a computer that can successfully emulate one?  And yes, people do try to understand things because it makes sense.  Understanding, even in some limited sense is imperative to our survival.  Not understanding that fire can damage you, or that the pain of a burn correlates to the source, fire in this case, would be very bad.  What kind of god would deign us to have intelligence only to desire that we discard it on the slightest whim?  Further, without applying intelligence, what god or rationalization do you select out of the thousands available?  The one of your parents?  You probably did, much as I did, because you weren't thinking about it.  As to the Christian faith and story of Jesus not making sense, well, you're absolutely right.  And still you believe it, because you don't think yourself capable of saying  "Wow, that's absurd, and disagrees with a large body of evidence, so it's irrational to believe it.  So I shouldn't believe it."   The funny thing is, if a being as limited as yourself can see that it is absurd, just how can you believe it to be total, inerrant truth?  This is cognitive dissonance, a disease of the mind, an insult to the faculties of reasoning and logic that you do posses.  I sincerely hope you will at least attempt to rationalize your belief in the event you do not discard it.

Quote from: "lisette"Because of the relationship with God. Because God calles us to come to Him. This is the deep secret. All this theology doesn't make any sense without a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you really meet Jesus, you just KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. It is not something a Christian can explain, only the Holy Spirit can show a person in his heart what is the truth. And isn't that what everybody is looking for? The truth?
Why are you trying so hard to prove the Christians to be wrong? Why would you care? Why does it make you so mad?

If it doesn't make sense without a relationship with Jesus, I would love to know how any rational person is supposed to get into heaven.  From the sound of it, you have to be born into the appropriate religion and then compartmentalize your mind before really reading the scripture.  I've yet to meet a rational person who became a Christian after reading the Bible.  Indeed, they always made a commitment to Jesus beforehand, which sort of undermines the point of having the Bible, and it also emotionally invests them in it being right.  Mind, many Christians are aware of the errors of the Bible, hence apologetics, but this is an attempt to make what they desperately want believe agree with what they know to be true.  Oh, but if I really meet Jesus, and he makes profoundly clear to me his identity and divinity, I'll believe.  As to everything only making sense with the Holy Spirit and you being unable to explain it to us, this is doublespeak.  Only through the Holy Spirit can we comprehend, but not really comprehend because then we would be able to explain it?  Or do you mean that we're supposed to go by a gut feeling?  How many gut feelings have you had that were wrong, especially when they disagreed with common sense?  Moving on, yes, we're all seeking this "truth," synonymous with correctness and accuracy.  Ironically, if God created a big phony universe for us to live out our lives in, it'd be pretty far from the truth of things.  If you meant that as seeking factual information, then yes and no.  Everybody seeks information, but some will only seek information that vindicates them while shunning all else, while some will seek indiscriminately, while others will seek all information in their body of interest but seldom outside of it.  The comical part is that "Goddidit" is not a useful answer for anything, indeed it was not a good enough answer even for early Christians who looked for natural explanations for the world acting as it does.  "Goddidit" does not tell us how people get sick nor how antibiotics work, how to build skyscrapers nor combustion engines, neither does it tell us anything about the origin of life nor the origin of the universe itself.  Moving on, I cannot prove the Christians wrong, indeed it isn't my goal.  I cannot, because they isolate their God from reality.   In demonstration of this point, God doesn't physically exist anywhere in the universe, he does not exert any force on it, he will not respond to any stimuli, and the "evidence" that he exists is completely subjective in the form of gut instincts vague notions.  Indeed, the last one is evidence that people want a god to exist, not that there is one.  This is why there are a lot of gods, where only one version of the god or gods could ever be true.  Finally, it makes me mad because I do not like being sad.  And it makes me very sad, pressing hard on me, when people, friends even, choose to discard reality in favor of their mere desires.  When they would rather live in ignorance of the beauty and wonder of the universe and instead favor mysticism and superstition.  When they would rather give worship to nothing and live on their knees just so they can believe they are loved, or protected, or purposed.  It makes me sad because it is simultaneously mental slavery and the willful abandonment of reality in favor of fancy.

Quote from: "lisette"Because you are looking for the truth! And they claim to have it! But you just don't understand it. With all the wisdom of the world you would still not be able to understand.

Yep.  I am looking for truth, Christians do claim to have it, and I would not understand it even with all the wisdom in the world, but that is because even a small amount of wisdom informs me that Christians have very little to offer me in the way of truth.  Indeed, I would need to posses less wisdom to "understand" it, though you say yourself that you do not and cannot understand it, just that you know it to be so.

Quote from: "lisette"Because only God can reveale the truth through his spirit. The Christian faith is not a faith of the 'mind' , but of the heart and the soul. And when a human soul meets its Maker, it just knows what is the truth. And having this relationship with my God proves me that He is right. That the Bible is the truth. I've seen miracles happen, I've seen God at work. And this proves enough for me, even if I don't understand. I know one day I will understand, when I will stand before Him.

Believe, despite having no reason to?  Did you know there are pink unicorns living on the far side of the moon?  There is a reason we don't take things at face value.  You might claim that the pink unicorns on the far side of the moon don't have a best selling book that's hundreds and hundreds of pages long and written as poetry.  It frightens me to think that you would consider believing this if they did.  If you've seen miracles happen, and God at work, then maybe it can be said I'm just not as lucky as you are.  I've seen no such thing, and no scientific test has detected the supernatural.  Hope your god will at least hear me out on the absurdity of his plan, making a universe that doesn't indicate his presence in any way, giving me the ability to reason, and then being brazen enough not to give a good showing or tossing out some miracles, assuring me a space in hell.  Though, if the universe is any indication, I won't be arguing with anyone post mortem.  Indeed, with the discovery of genes that influence religiousity, your God would be playing with a stacked deck and I'd be predetermined to get screwed.  But we both know what's more likely.  The genes surely exist.  The gods are surely an assumption.  Only one passes Occam's Razor unscaved.

Quote from: "lisette"Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

I never read through the whole thing.  The absurdities pilled on too fast and I was often needing to discuss things with my Christian friends even before finishing individual books, when not individual chapters.  Anyway, you last sentence has great merit.  I do seek the truth of things, I am restless (in a way I enjoy, no less), and I do not believe anything on blind faith.  I hope you will realize that if it's the truth you seek, you're seeking it in the wrong place.  There are a myriad of reasons one might believe in a god, but truth and facts don't fall into it.  Comfort, fear of death, desire for fellowship, all of these are valid reasons for wanting to believe, but the Bible has very little information that we can establish as fact, and it certainly doesn't describe how the universe operates.  Science, however, is honest.  It provides evidence, and is heavily scrutinized.  Its evidence is empirical and not subject to interpretation (the idea that God and his actions are subject to interpretation is preposterous, there can only be one true description and sequence of events).  The pursuit of science trumps biblical dogma in every way, and it provides the best "truths" humanity ever had.

Thanks for reading, and peace to you.

I've been reading all of this and doing a not-so-slow burn, quite content to just read and not respond but this one needs a response from me:

Quote from: "lisette"Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being.

A computer cannot understand a human being because it's not sentient.  Period.  It cannot "think" or "understand" because it does not have a brain.  It can only process what it is programmed to process.  

We, on the other hand, DO have brains, do have the capacity to think and understand, can determine what is real and what is not.

Once I read the above quote, I knew there was no reason to read the rest of your Christian rant because you have no idea what reality and thought are.  Thanks for playing.  Massive fail.

Wait, one more thing:

Quote from: "lisette"Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

You'd be hard-pressed to find an atheist who hasn't read the bible, my dear little Christian.  I've read it many times over.  I read it as a child and believed... I read it as an adult and saw it for the sham it truly is.  It took intelligence and life-experience away from the brainwashing adults who sought to control me with blind faith.

After I'd read the bible several times, I started my quest for truth, which led me to the texts of other religions, which I read as well.  They all said much the same thing.  That cemented it for me.

I find it horribly sad that you need that ancient book, written by nomads and ancient people, in order to do what is good and right in this world.  I can do the same without the crutch of religion or faith.

We have atheists on this forum who have been such for their entire lives (one is 51 years old).  By your assertion (and that of the other Christian messenger here), he should have been gleefully killing for decades now because he has no god to worship... yet, I'm pretty sure he's a lawabiding righteous citizen.  Look at statistics for the prisons in America... the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants identify as Christians, not atheists.  So if this country is failing, don't blame the non-believers.  Look in your own backyard.  Oh wait... they must not be "true Christians," right?  Convenient.  

rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

Quote from: "minstrelofc"rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

Quote from: "minstrelofc"rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

We don't have to understand everything in this world.  That's the problem with the god belief and religion.  They feel they have all the answers and if they don't, well "we can't know what god means/wants/etc."

A computer program is only as good as the programmer... and that analogy applies to any creation and its supposed creator.  We are fallible... therefore... you get it.

I can acknowledge that your god's understanding is far beyond ours.  And thus is yet another of the thousand reasons I don't believe god exists.

Quote from: "VanReal"In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

Even a computer program can produce unique output that we appreciate as beautiful. How much more can a human?

I'm not qualified to judge God's motivations for creating us - if you want I could make some wild guesses (or repeat some that I've heard previously).

btw: love your sig. quote

Quote from: "rlrose328"We don't have to understand everything in this world.  That's the problem with the god belief and religion.  They feel they have all the answers and if they don't, well "we can't know what god means/wants/etc."

A computer program is only as good as the programmer... and that analogy applies to any creation and its supposed creator.  We are fallible... therefore... you get it.

I can acknowledge that your god's understanding is far beyond ours.  And thus is yet another of the thousand reasons I don't believe god exists.

You're right - we don't have to understand everything in this world. I would add that we *can't* understand everything in this world (though we can understand "quite a lot"). All I claim (as a Christian) is that I know Someone who does. (Good luck getting the data from Him though - He has this tendency to only give us just enough data for us to figure it out on our own -- too much data and we become automatons, you see - humans are (in general) very lazy when it comes to thinking. You may have noticed )

A computer program *can* only be as good as the programmer - that's an upper bound. I know how to play chess, but that doesn't mean that if I create a script to backup files to a remote server that that script can play chess. God is infinite and perfect, but that doesn't mean that everything he creates has to be infinite and perfect. (it gets a smidge more complex - yes, we were created perfectly (as God couldn't make a mistake when creating us), but we were given the "ability" to make our own mistakes)

Quote from: "minstrelofc"

Quote from: "VanReal"In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

Even a computer program can produce unique output that we appreciate as beautiful. How much more can a human?

I'm not qualified to judge God's motivations for creating us - if you want I could make some wild guesses (or repeat some that I've heard previously).

btw: love your sig. quote

Thanks!  Would you not consider that an interesting question?  I'm not looking for a qualified judgement just your thoughts.  I'm not really interested in what you are taught or what you get from the bible but what you think.  Why would God create man to be so inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed?  I just can't think of any reason why a creator would create such a flawed creature and then want it to praise him/her/it.  It concerns me.  What things have you heard, or better yet what are some of your thoughts on that?

Quote from: "minstrelofc"God is infinite and perfect, but that doesn't mean that everything he creates has to be infinite and perfect. (it gets a smidge more complex - yes, we were created perfectly (as God couldn't make a mistake when creating us), but we were given the "ability" to make our own mistakes)

Ah, now it gets interesting.  God could conceivably do a "perfect" job creating anything, so long as it was what he intended and he didn't mess up his own design.  Now consider two things.  God is omniscient, so he must know just how we will act when he creates us, or even before, which makes him malevolent in deliberately engineering the majority of humanity to fail.  Even if you state that God is not omniscient, I put it to you that I have enough foresight to see most of his design is going to land people in hell.  It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God, think about it.  The only reason we do is because of our character flaws.  Just having the choice open doesn't mean sane people take it.  There has to be a factor that demands they do.

The majority of humans would be perfectly created to spend eternity in hell, yes?  Your only way out of this is to say it isn't God's intent, that God isn't omniscient, and that he is not omnipotent.  If this is God's intent, I'm more loving than God.  If God is omniscient, he already knew how he would fail, and wouldn't bother if he was not malevolent, and if he was omnipotent, well, he would be omniscient by willing it and he also wouldn't make mistakes of any kind, leading right back to all of this being his intent.

The only way God works, without being a total bastard, is if we strip him of a great deal of the qualities Christians claim he has (one of these, ironically, being him not being a total bastard).  Indeed, just from the above, a reciprocal, personal relationship with God is out of the question, bar some amazing justification.

Quote from: "VanReal"Thanks!  Would you not consider that an interesting question?  I'm not looking for a qualified judgement just your thoughts.  I'm not really interested in what you are taught or what you get from the bible but what you think.  Why would God create man to be so inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed?  I just can't think of any reason why a creator would create such a flawed creature and then want it to praise him/her/it.  It concerns me.  What things have you heard, or better yet what are some of your thoughts on that?

God's motivation for creating us - definitely an interesting question - a bit like the famous "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin", but at least this one has more interesting (potential) answers.

The most interesting answer that I've heard (and I only tend to remember the interesting ones -  ;) ) )

Yes, we are "inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed", but we are also noble, compassionate, beautiful, and innovative. Do we hate fine china because it's fragile, or a child's drawing because it's flawed? No, we will sometimes love it all the more because of its faults.

God doesn't need our praise, but if he exists in any way like I believe him to, then He most definitely deserves it.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"The most interesting answer that I've heard (and I only tend to remember the interesting ones -  ;) ) )

Yes, we are "inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed", but we are also noble, compassionate, beautiful, and innovative. Do we hate fine china because it's fragile, or a child's drawing because it's flawed? No, we will sometimes love it all the more because of its faults.

God doesn't need our praise, but if he exists in any way like I believe him to, then He most definitely deserves it.

Interesting explanation, very "human" in characteristic and I like that it seems like a genuine attempt to answer a question with thought rather than pulling it from mere faith.

Doesn't god require praise and worship?  Aren't several of the ten commandments related directly towards that?

PipeBox: Fascinating argument - I like how you constructed it. I wonder if you're going to "catch me". (Is it weird if I  :lol: )

Okay, let's start by approaching it though one of my own "pet theories".

Does God have free will?

If we define "free will" in a human way, then no, He does not. There are many things that any of us with His power and abilities could do, but He cannot. He cannot lie, He cannot cheat, He cannot be unjust. He cannot ignore the consequences of His actions.

He cannot do these things, not because He's impotent, but because they are (to Him) simply contradictory. Much like he can't "Make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" - because it's a physical paradox, He cannot lie, because He is the benchmark for Truth.

So, we've established that there are certain things that He can't do, but there's more. There are certain things He MUST do. If someone does wrong (abuses a kid, let's say) then he MUST punish that wrong - if He had the power to, and did not, then he would NOT be a God of Justice.

In fact (if I may combine my "pet theories"), it's possible that re: my discussion with VanReal, God HAD TO create us.

If He is Loving, then He must have someone to love. So He created us, perfectly.
If He is Merciful, then He must have someone who has done wrong to be merciful towards. So He gave us the ability to hurt Him.
If He is Just, then He must punish our wrongdoing. So once we had "sinned", He cannot simply let us "off the hook".
If He is Forgiving, then He must resolve this quandary. So He had Jesus live a perfect life, and willingly take our punishment (which Jesus did not deserve) so that as long as we ask for forgiveness, justice has already been served, and He can forgive us.

Would it be insane to choose sin over God? or just incredibly short-sighted?
Note that according to my random theory, God HAD to make us such that we would choose sin over Him. However, it HAD to be a willful act of disobedience - otherwise it wouldn't count, as we would actually be doing his will, not fulfilling our purpose - remember that (according to the theory) God HAD to create us in that way - it wasn't necessarily His "desire" to do so. (yes, this bit is complex, but so is General Relativity -- a theory that is still not-quite accurate in describing a PHYSICAL phenomenon, never mind a Psychological, or even Spiritual one --- I can try to break this down into more quantifiable bits if needed/requested)
After that, (and this is the "aha" I had about 2-3 years ago) it was simply "triage". God's Loving desire is for everyone to be saved, but due to what he CAN and CANNOT do, only "a few" will be saved.


Problems I have with my theory:

It seems very "limiting" to God. Can God only choose the incidentals of what happens (hair colo(u)r, etc)? Is our conception of "free will" even applicable or desired of God? Perhaps the problem lies with our understanding of "free will", "character", and so forth - it might be (and I'm still missing the :roll: icon) "beyond our understanding".

Semi-problem: Couldn't God use a better strategy to save us all? Simply appearing "in the clouds" to everyone in the world should definitely be "enough" to convince us all to ask for forgiveness. On the other hand - if He did that... Would we really be asking for forgiveness of our own free will? As you yourself say: "It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God". If God did that, we would be compelled to do His bidding, and that could cause the whole thing to collapse.


Again, these are just my thoughts, and I look forward to you collapsing them all by pointing out all the things I've overlooked  

minstrel, I don't have the time to address your posts in detail at the moment, but I just want to say how refreshing it is that you actually put effort into questioning concepts of your religion and don't just post up bible verses and resort to vague esoteric "truths".

you don't make me feel like taking on the role of  

Well, minstrelofc, if God is real and he cannot be unjust, then how do you explain horrible diseases and coditions that some children have been born with? For example, the boy that was born with frail skin, whose skin would fall off with every touch, who suffered through unimaginable pain everyday, who had to accept that he would die young. Did he do something so heinous that he deserved to be born with that condition?

Surely God's will was just and sound.

With that said, what about the whole "faith of a child" bit? Most of us (atheists and Christians) have all heard that and know what it means. But think about it. We were all children once. We were all told what to do, what not to do, what to think, and what not to think. "Faith of a child" can be summarized as a father saying "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you." Furthermore, children are not actually allowed to speak their own mind and to think their own thoughts. It's a shame, but it's reality. Very few parents (even in this generation) will allow their child to do what they want to do. There are reasons for this: a slight lack of in-depth comprehension, a great lack of discipline, and a lack of general wisdom. However, I don't agree that children shouldn't be treated as if they are mindless.

At any rate, the only reason "faith of a child" exists is because faith is forced upon children. Yet still, the "faith of a child" is admired by countless adult Christians - even the ones who have done the force-feeding. If you have eyesight, then you'll be able to see this point very clearly.

Quote from: "VanReal"Doesn't god require praise and worship?  Aren't several of the ten commandments related directly towards that?

You know, I thought there were too until I just looked them up. There actually aren't any (in "The 10") directly requiring praise and worship. It's implied with "no other gods before me" and, perhaps "keep the sabbath holy" (kinda), but it isn't exactly stated.

There are plenty of other verses which say that we should, however. Personally, I believe that all of the "commandments" (wherever they are in the Bible) are for our benefit. If we follow them, it benefits us. If we don't follow them, it hurts us.

Benefits of Praising and Worshiping God
(Obviously these are only benefits if God exists)
Focusing on what is good (God, in this case) keeps us motivated to be good ourselves.
Reduces stress (God is more powerful than our problems, and will keep us safe)
Instructional (many praise songs will remind us of important lessons)
Bonding with other Christians (Shared activity, etc)

There's likely other benefits as well, those are just the first that come to mind.


Kiros:
Regarding your first point, I'll sleep on it, and try to come up with a clear, yet sensitive way of phrasing what I believe. Note, however, that in comparison, I've been born into ridiculously easy circumstances, so I can't really know how hard those sorts of things are to live with. All I can do is describe what I have observed (in myself and in others), and what I have been able to deduce from that.

About your second point:

Quote from: "Kiros"With that said, what about the whole "faith of a child" bit? Most of us (atheists and Christians) have all heard that and know what it means. But think about it. We were all children once. We were all told what to do, what not to do, what to think, and what not to think. "Faith of a child" can be summarized as a father saying "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you." Furthermore, children are not actually allowed to speak their own mind and to think their own thoughts. It's a shame, but it's reality. Very few parents (even in this generation) will allow their child to do what they want to do. There are reasons for this: a slight lack of in-depth comprehension, a great lack of discipline, and a lack of general wisdom. However, I don't agree that children shouldn't be treated as if they are mindless.

At any rate, the only reason "faith of a child" exists is because faith is forced upon children. Yet still, the "faith of a child" is admired by countless adult Christians - even the ones who have done the force-feeding. If you have eyesight, then you'll be able to see this point very clearly.

I do agree that children should be allowed - no - encouraged - to think, speak, and debate things. If they don't learn how to reason when they are young, it will be very difficult for them to learn to when they are older.

That said, I completely disagree with your definition of "faith of a child". Your example of "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you" is not "faith", it's "fear", "terror" - not a good thing (except in very special circumstances). There's an interesting thing about kids - they lack certain levels of discrimination. If you tell your kid something, they'll believe you, they'll stand up for you, and when presented with seemingly contradictory information, they'll work to reason out a way that what you said could be true. It's only once they get older that they'll start doubting what they've been told. (Note: IANAECP (Early Childhood Psychologist) - This is an amalgam of what I remember, what I have observed, and what I have heard from others)

That is what is meant by "faith of a child". For an adult, it should be a conscious choice: I choose to believe the Bible, and will use my reasoning to combine what I see in the world with what I read in the Bible.

I can see your objection, and I agree -- IF the Bible is false, then I am using my reasoning to a false end; I might as well determine what grade of carbon-fiber composite is needed for the harnesses on Santa's sleigh.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"PipeBox: Fascinating argument - I like how you constructed it. I wonder if you're going to "catch me". (Is it weird if I  :lol: )

Thanks, and sorry for taking so long to reply, I honestly wasn't up to thinking it over until just now.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Okay, let's start by approaching it though one of my own "pet theories".

Does God have free will?

If we define "free will" in a human way, then no, He does not. There are many things that any of us with His power and abilities could do, but He cannot. He cannot lie, He cannot cheat, He cannot be unjust. He cannot ignore the consequences of His actions.

Then God is necessarily subservient to greater universal concepts.  Logic, in that he cannot do two contradicting things while still not contradicting himself.  Morality, in that he must not cheat, steal, or lie.  In your example, God does not dictate what is good, good dictates what is God.  I could elaborate further, but I don't think I need to.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"He cannot do these things, not because He's impotent, but because they are (to Him) simply contradictory. Much like he can't "Make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" - because it's a physical paradox, He cannot lie, because He is the benchmark for Truth.

I contend that if he is truly omnipotent that he can make a rock so large he cannot move it, but if he ever desires to, he can make himself capable of moving it.  Though, the fact that omnipotence demands physical paradoxes should tell you that it doesn't exist.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"So, we've established that there are certain things that He can't do, but there's more. There are certain things He MUST do. If someone does wrong (abuses a kid, let's say) then he MUST punish that wrong - if He had the power to, and did not, then he would NOT be a God of Justice.

I'll leave the moral stuff out of it, as what God does to people in his realms, external to reality, has no bearing on us.  But when you say there are things he MUST do, I wonder if you mean that God must be exactly as he is and everything must've been created exactly as it was.  Because then there is no way to disprove your belief.  Indeed, it's an anthropic argument that could've been made equally well even if the universe was different, so long as there were observers to make it.  This is something of a mash between determinism, theology, and assumptions about the nature of your God.  Mind you, this would still mean your god is a bastard, but at least it agrees with reality.  This belief just amounts to all of testable, verifiable reality + the assumption of God.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"In fact (if I may combine my "pet theories"), it's possible that re: my discussion with VanReal, God HAD TO create us.

If He is Loving, then He must have someone to love. So He created us, perfectly.
If He is Merciful, then He must have someone who has done wrong to be merciful towards. So He gave us the ability to hurt Him.
If He is Just, then He must punish our wrongdoing. So once we had "sinned", He cannot simply let us "off the hook".
If He is Forgiving, then He must resolve this quandary. So He had Jesus live a perfect life, and willingly take our punishment (which Jesus did not deserve) so that as long as we ask for forgiveness, justice has already been served, and He can forgive us.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
If God is able to prevent evil, but not willing, then he malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil?
If God is neither willing to prevent evil, nor able, then why call him God?

That'd be the epicurean paradox.
In contrast, your example only allows God to posses certain qualities at certain times.  If I do it . . .

If He is Loving, and desired something beyond Himself to love, He would create someone to love, and give them the greatest attention and show equal kindness.
If He is Merciful, then he would have no use for hell, for infinite compassion cannot justify infinite punishment.
If He is Just, infinite torment could never be necessitated by finite crimes.
If He is Merciful, then there would be no reason for him to need to be separately Forgiving.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Would it be insane to choose sin over God? or just incredibly short-sighted?
Note that according to my random theory, God HAD to make us such that we would choose sin over Him. However, it HAD to be a willful act of disobedience - otherwise it wouldn't count, as we would actually be doing his will, not fulfilling our purpose - remember that (according to the theory) God HAD to create us in that way - it wasn't necessarily His "desire" to do so. (yes, this bit is complex, but so is General Relativity -- a theory that is still not-quite accurate in describing a PHYSICAL phenomenon, never mind a Psychological, or even Spiritual one --- I can try to break this down into more quantifiable bits if needed/requested)
After that, (and this is the "aha" I had about 2-3 years ago) it was simply "triage". God's Loving desire is for everyone to be saved, but due to what he CAN and CANNOT do, only "a few" will be saved.

Internal inconsistencies in italics.
Bastard actions in bold.

Well, maybe he isn't such a bastard if he has no choice, but the cognitive dissonance of God is staggering.  If he made us to sin, fully intending that we elect sin over him, then it's still his will.  The best part is that Jesus's sacrifice would have far less impact than Adam's original sin, eh?

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Problems I have with my theory:

It seems very "limiting" to God. Can God only choose the incidentals of what happens (hair colo(u)r, etc)? Is our conception of "free will" even applicable or desired of God? Perhaps the problem lies with our understanding of "free will", "character", and so forth - it might be (and I'm still missing the :roll: icon) "beyond our understanding".

Can your version of God even choose incidentals?  But nevermind that, "beyond our understanding" is a whored out excuse for things that don't make sense.  Find an issue with your god and reality, then previously it was a test, or satan's sabotage of God's plan, now it's just "beyond our understanding" for the typical Christian.  I realize this is why you put it in quotes, but friends of mine have used this and it's nothing more than a way of opting out of a tough line of thought.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Semi-problem: Couldn't God use a better strategy to save us all? Simply appearing "in the clouds" to everyone in the world should definitely be "enough" to convince us all to ask for forgiveness. On the other hand - if He did that... Would we really be asking for forgiveness of our own free will? As you yourself say: "It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God". If God did that, we would be compelled to do His bidding, and that could cause the whole thing to collapse.

Seeing as how Jesus supposedly performed miracles, rose from the dead, and appeared to hundreds of people and made them all start speaking in tongues post-resurrection, I'm gonna say that either God is OK with taking away free will or the choice was still theirs.  In fact, I know it was:  Evolution is a fact, for example, but people still choose not to believe in it.  Their belief has no impact on the status of it as a fact, though.  So, I want my personal appearance of Jesus and a few miracles, otherwise I'm just gonna say your god is mighty unfair for supposedly being so just and merciful.  So, short answer, yes, your God supposedly can and has used better methods for saving people, the rest of us just aren't worthy because, well, you know how he is.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Again, these are just my thoughts, and I look forward to you collapsing them all by pointing out all the things I've overlooked  :D

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Kiros:
Regarding your first point, I'll sleep on it, and try to come up with a clear, yet sensitive way of phrasing what I believe. Note, however, that in comparison, I've been born into ridiculously easy circumstances, so I can't really know how hard those sorts of things are to live with. All I can do is describe what I have observed (in myself and in others), and what I have been able to deduce from that.

Alright. Just remember reality - real reality. Some people suffer everyday of their lives and for no reason at all (i.e. they didn't do anything to deserve it). If you do supply me with your belief on the matter, I'd like to hear some reasons as to why you believe such.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"About your second point:
...

I do agree that children should be allowed - no - encouraged - to think, speak, and debate things. If they don't learn how to reason when they are young, it will be very difficult for them to learn to when they are older.

I'm glad that you agree with me on one thing. However, even after mentally or physically abused, children can still grow older and learn as adolescents and young adults. The human mind is very flexible in that aspect.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"That said, I completely disagree with your definition of "faith of a child". Your example of "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you" is not "faith", it's "fear", "terror" - not a good thing (except in very special circumstances). There's an interesting thing about kids - they lack certain levels of discrimination. If you tell your kid something, they'll believe you, they'll stand up for you, and when presented with seemingly contradictory information, they'll work to reason out a way that what you said could be true. It's only once they get older that they'll start doubting what they've been told. (Note: IANAECP (Early Childhood Psychologist) - This is an amalgam of what I remember, what I have observed, and what I have heard from others)

That is what is meant by "faith of a child". For an adult, it should be a conscious choice: I choose to believe the Bible, and will use my reasoning to combine what I see in the world with what I read in the Bible.

You're absolutely right. It's not faith at all.

Children start doubting at a very young age. For example, I started doubting that Santa was real when I had just turned 6 years old (Christmas Eve is exactly 2 months away from my birthday). My doubt was based on the fact that I never saw him, there was no real way to contact him, and the claim that he could give presents to everyone on the planet in the span of one day was just too absurd. So my theory was that Santa didn't exist and parents were just using him for two main reasons: to ensure good behavior in times of need and to guarantee that children could not be upset with their parents if they didn't receive what they wanted. Basically, I stayed up past my bedtime, faked being asleep, saw my parents come check that my brother and I were asleep, and heard my parents wrapping the presents while having a short discussion about them. When confronted with this, of course my parents tried to reassure me that Santa was real, but after repeating myself time and time again, they just ignored me.

Religion is a bit different. If a child completely doubts their parents' religious beliefs, it's understandably common that one parent, if not both, will become upset. Children are helpless to physical abuse, so it's fairly easy for any parent to frighten a child into doing, thinking, and saying anything.

When it's not physical threats, it's the threat of hell in general. I've experienced both of these tactics first-hand when I asked "Why?" too many times.

The "faith of a child" is not faith at all. It's the end-result of brainwashing.

You'll find that the only children that don't have the "faith of a child" are the ones that haven't had it forced upon them.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"I can see your objection, and I agree -- IF the Bible is false, then I am using my reasoning to a false end; I might as well determine what grade of carbon-fiber composite is needed for the harnesses on Santa's sleigh.

Truth be told, the bible has to be false. It's known as the word of God, yet it was written completely by men - men that didn't agree on everything.

By the by, Santa doesn't ride in a sleigh anymore. He drives a 2008 Nissan Altima. *vroom vroom*

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Benefits of Praising and Worshiping God
(Obviously these are only benefits if God exists)
Focusing on what is good (God, in this case) keeps us motivated to be good ourselves.

I do not believe in a god. However, I have the ability within myself to focus on what is good. I take care of myself the best I know how. I love my family, and would do anything for them. I have never abused a child, nor have I hit a woman. I have never raped anybody. I have never killed anybody. I have only been in a couple physical alterations, and in every one, the other guy threw the first punch. I have not ruined my life with drugs, although I have experimented. I do not have any illegitimate children. I do not have unprotected sex. I even do my best do drive the speed limit.
I cannot figure any way that a belief in a god would help me be any more motivated to live a good life.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Reduces stress (God is more powerful than our problems, and will keep us safe)

I get stressed. I reduce stress by doing something outside. I reduce stress by playing a videogame. I reduce stress by talking directly with my brother, who is completely real. I reduce stress by trying to logically conclude a way to fix the problem which has me stressed. I reduce stress by reading. I have reduced stress in the past taking prescription drugs, although I do not like going that route.
I cannot figure out how asking for a problem to be solved for me, and either not receiving a response from anyone, or only getting a response in my head, would help me to reduce stress. If I want my stress reduced, I'm going to take action.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Instructional (many praise songs will remind us of important lessons)

Living life reminds me of important lessons. Learning from the past, or others mistakes, reminds me of important lessons. Reading books by real people, about real events, reminds me of important lessons. Communicating with people on a forum reminds me of important lessons. Thinking about important lessons reminds me of important lessons.
I cannot figure out what I would need praise songs for, when life teaches enough important lessons, you just need to be willing to pay attention.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"Bonding with other Christians (Shared activity, etc)

You don't need a god to bond with christians. You need christians, real live people. You bond with them because of your belief system. Bonding with christians has no appeal to me. Bonding with other people does, if they happen to be christian, then so be it. We are a social animal. I choose to spend my time with people I love. I spend my time with people I trust. I spend my time on this forum having discussions with people who often share alot of my same views, because it is comforting to do so. However, I do not need an organized religion to tell me who to spend my time with. In fact, if you believe someone is inherently good simply because they share the same religious views as you, you are likely to be disappointed by more than a few of them.

Quote from: "minstrelofc"There's likely other benefits as well, those are just the first that come to mind.

There may be. I can't think of any to help you out.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"Between the ages of 9 and 16 I was forced to attend church, and even attended a private Christian school for grades 7 and 8. It was horrible, but I'm actually glad for it because it ensured that I learned enough to STAY AWAY later.

Now, there were plenty of things I learned that made me go  :crazy: , but he BIG one, the one I've never been able to get even a slightly acceptable explanation for, is this:

1)God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future.
2)He made Lucifer, his most beloved angel.

So, even BEFORE creating Lucifer, God knew that Lucifer would betray him and become Satan, Lord of Darkness (this dilemma spills over to Adam and Eve, too). What exactly was God's reasoning for this? I mean, he can't make mistakes, so if he went ahead and made Lucifer anyway, then that means he intended for everything to happen the way it did, right? The most common response I get is along the lines of God's ways being "higher than our ways", implying that it's not something we can understand because we're just simple, stupid humans. But if I made a robot knowing that a glitch in it would cause it to one day kill all humans, then I'd be a monster, an idiot, or insane; nobody would think that my reasoning was the result of superior thought processes. And it brings into question the Christian concept of love: If God already knew the outcome then Lucifer had no choice, nullifying another common explanation I get from Christians trying to take the blame off of God, "Lucifer had a CHOICE." Seriously, if Lucifer had not chosen to betray God, then the knowledge of the future God had would have been false, and God can't be wrong, can he? So, NO, Lucifer did not have a choice, there are even passages in the Bible which state that nothing can happen that God does not will to happen. So God willed his most beloved angel to become his worst enemy from the outset? Please, PLEASE stop telling me that God loves me.

Most of my family are devout Christians, and are constantly perplexed about my rejection of their religion, despite my frequent reminder about said dilemma and their inability to explain it.

Any Christians have a better explanation?

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Quote from: "Psalm23"Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Easy to answer. Difficult to answer reasonably. See, here we have something called a loophole, and here's what's going to happen to that response when a Weeeee Little Bit of Reason and Logic is applied to the Old Man Bible:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages40.fotki.com%2Fv1239%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1215725060318-vi.gif&hash=c6e2160ca5bb37d3df1715bc1585bda08b092b4e)

"Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

Quote from: "Psalm23"Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

Quote from: "McQ""Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

Lucifer was created perfect, but he also found evil and he used that evil to rebel towards God.

I think you need to research, "Freewill" and then get back to me.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

Bible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages. The problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

The Qu'ran says the Christian Holy Trinity is the, "the Father, the Mother of Isa, and The Holy Ghost." We all know the Trinity is the "Father, the son & the Holy Ghost." The Virgin Mary has never been part of the Trinity.

I wonder how many atheists in this forum have ever noticed that?

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "McQ""Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

Lucifer was created perfect, but he also found evil and he used that evil to rebel towards God.

I think you need to research, "Freewill" and then get back to me.

Wrongo, chum! I already learned about it. What I'd like to know is how you interpreted Ezekiel 28:15 to mean that Lucifer was created perfect? Ezekiel 28:15 refers to Lucifer being perfect in his behavior, not in his being created perfectly. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha........

wait, where was I?

Oh yeah. Ezekiel. Regardless of how Lucifer was created....why would an omniscient, omnipotent being create another being whom he knew was flawed even before creating him?

Just one of the many imponderables in the big book of fairy tales.

Quote from: "Psalm23"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Psalm23"Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

Bible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages. The problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

The Qu'ran says the Christian Holy Trinity is the, "the Father, the Mother of Isa, and The Holy Ghost." We all know the Trinity is the "Father, the son & the Holy Ghost." The Virgin Mary has never been part of the Trinity.

I wonder how many atheists in this forum have ever noticed that?

Ha! You're keeping me in stitches here, Psalm! Thank you. What is really "typical" is not atheists visiting other atheist websites, but you and so many others who come here assuming that none of the members here know the bible. Believe it or not (and don't let this get around or it'll ruin our reputation for being evil baby eaters!), some atheists used to be (dare I say it?) Born Again Christians! There, I've said it.

Some were even catholics (I know, it shocked me too). And, get this....some were even......

Pastors!

By golly, we could cite verse and chapter with the best of 'em. Led a lot of souls to christ myself, I did.  :lol:

Quote from: "McQ"wait, where was I?

Oh yeah. Ezekiel. Regardless of how Lucifer was created....why would an omniscient, omnipotent being create another being whom he knew was flawed even before creating him?

Just one of the many imponderables in the big book of fairy tales.

Everyone knows God can't destroy the Devil for the same reason Batman can't kill the Joker. Fictional Superheros need villains, otherwise there's no story to tell.

QuoteBible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages.

Yup, as I already stated, they certainly have... with more contradictions. When you try to justify a contradiction with another on what are you expecting? For two wrongs to make a right. You're not allowed to attempt logic anymore.

Seems to me if a perfect God wrote a perfect book it would be... well... perfect.


 

QuoteThe problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

Umm... no. I read the Bible and was convinced it was fiction by my own thinking.


By the way, I like how you completely ignored my argument by bringing up this irrelevant randomness. I must be doing my job.