Happy Atheist Forum

Look! Now WE have riots over that dump of a place in the middle of the desert!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi444.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq163%2FStormlord_85%2FDen_israelske_ambas_684676p_a.jpg&hash=d558449076a5a4d279b3839e7f303c65d8117d84)
Now THIS is something you don't see every day - our cops actually had to dig forth and use their riot gear which has been largely collecting dust for the past 30 years...

Quote from: "News"In Oslo, the torchlight procession for peace was preceeded by a demonstration outside the Parliament buildings (Stortinget) in support of Israel.

Despite a large number of police, which erected barriers to protect the pro Israeli demonstrators, a large crowd of pro-Palestinian demonstrators gathered, shouting slogans and also throwing rocks and bottles.

The police therefore used teargas in an effort at trying to disperse the attackers, but in the end they were forced to terminate the pro-Israeli demonstration as well.

Six people, five of them policemen, were injured in the street battle which is described by the police as the worst in Oslo i 30 years. More  than 30 people were detained, 12 of them have been charged with violence against the police and grievous bodily harm.

The support committee for Gaza has condemned the use of violence in Thursday's demonstration, critisising in particular the young Palestinians who took part in turning it into a street fight

it's sad thing what happen in Gaza a demonstration in all over the world Greece -Norway- France -Arab world indeed  :crazy:
but on the other hand Hamas is like so hard to get on with
so two pain in the ass in one place  

Quote from: "wazzz"so two pain in the ass in one place  :mad:

Honestly, I'm so tired of this "holy land" crap. I don't have some big diatribe to go on. I just wanted to say that.

It's stupid and people are killing each other for no good reason. Period.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "wazzz"so two pain in the ass in one place  :mad:

What? the isreali protestors in your example were fine, it was the pro palestinians that caused the trouble.

The same thing happened in london, isreal supporters, no problems caused

palestine supporters, looting and violence.

Also, in case it is relavent, i think isreal are totally justified in what they are doing in gaza, you can't roket your eighbour for years without expecting some sort of retaliation.

I have had to keep my mouth shut over Israel for years because I have so many Jewish friends. I fear Bill Maher is right on target with his prediction of the world coming to an end over it. It is ridiculous. Peace between Israel and Palestine is not possible. It never will be. I wish we could just send them all to the moon!

I also keep my mouth shut about Israel, because I cannot say anything bad about Israel here in Germany without being called an anti-Semite.

Israel, why haven't you learned? It wasn't even 70 years ago that a more powerful military and political force, in the guise of government, was driving you our of Europe when not killing you. They forced you from your homes. They sent you to slums and camps. They killed you en masse. And they thought it was because of some solemn right.

Why haven't you learned?

Palestine, why haven't you learned? Ever since the occupation of Palestine, the guerrilla tactics colloquially called "terrorism" have been employed by more radical elements among you to try and gain political power and independence. All they've done is get you hated. All they've accomplished is to allow you to be labeled as "terrorists" by most media outlets and allowed your critics to summarily dismiss all of your grievances. What kind of response, from the people who could actually help you, would you expect from seeing you blow yourselves up to kill civilians in a populated area?

Why haven't you learned?


I suggest that Jerusalem is taken from Israel and Palestine and made to be international territory and to be occupied by an international security force indefinitely. I suggest returning to the 1967 borders, and allowing Palestine to rule Palestine and Israel to rule Israel. I demand that the US stop funding and arming Israel, and I demand Europe and Arab countries stop arming Palestine. I demand that Hamas be disbanded. I demand that current and previous Israeli leadership and Hamas leadership stand trial for war crimes.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "wazzz"so two pain in the ass in one place  :mad:

What? Rightful owners? Are you aware of what the fight over there is about?

Quote from: "VanReal"What? Rightful owners? Are you aware of what the fight over there is about?

You're right, it's not as simple as "the Palestinians were there first". The British were the occupying government before. The Ottomans were there before the British. Before the Ottomans, it was Egypt. Before Egypt, it was the Ottomans again, then the crusades. Still, throughout all of these conquests, there have been a group of people indigenous to the area. These indigenous people are not Jewish people from Europe, but Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Arabs. As far as government is concerned, it seems that that area will be ruled by the conquers and occupiers, as is currently the case. Belong? It would seem to be that the ethical solution is to allow indigenous people to govern themselves. Unfortunately the historical, social, religious, and extremist complications really do tend to force ethics out of a situation like this.

imho.

Quote from: "Willravel"These indigenous people are not Jewish people from Europe, but Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Arabs

This got me thinking and looking around.  I found Arabic Jews or Jewish Arabs (http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2005/07/arabic-jews-or-jewish-arabs.html), which opened my eyes a bit.  I had known that there was such a thing as "Jewish Arabs," but the story is such to give one pause.  It seems there is always another layer, if you examine a situation like this...  I especially appreciated the feedback from the anonymous Palestinian in the blog.

Quote from: "Willravel"I suggest that Jerusalem is taken from Israel and Palestine and made to be international territory and to be occupied by an international security force indefinitely.

I like this idea, but I don't think it would do much to satisfy the Palestinians or their backers, and probably would have little calming effect on their actions

Quote from: "SSY"What? the isreali protestors in your example were fine, it was the pro palestinians that caused the trouble.

The same thing happened in london, isreal supporters, no problems caused

palestine supporters, looting and violence.

They wouldn't have been protesting if the warmongering Israel didn't start yet another war.

Quote from: "SSY"Also, in case it is relavent, i think isreal are totally justified in what they are doing in gaza, you can't roket your eighbour for years without expecting some sort of retaliation.

I think the Palestinians are totally justified in spraying Israel with rockets. They should have had bigger rockets with high explosives though so they'd actually ruin something serious.

Quote from: "Recusant"I like this idea, but I don't think it would do much to satisfy the Palestinians or their backers, and probably would have little calming effect on their actions

I'm less interested in their satisfaction and more interested in a lasting peace. The idea, in my mind, is to essentially send them to their respective rooms and stand at the door. to continue the metaphor, these kids haven't had a strong parental figure to monitor their behavior and punish them when they were bad. They need to understand that there are consequences for their actions, and those consequences aren't just the back and fourth between them.

I missed this:

Quote from: "SSY"Also, in case it is relavent, i think isreal are totally justified in what they are doing in gaza, you can't roket your eighbour for years without expecting some sort of retaliation.

Israel broke the cease-fire this time, and Palestine responded. That's not to excuse Hamas, of course, but let's not pretend that Israel is any kind of victim in this. Israel has repeatedly been guilty of both unreasonable asymmetrical military response and of often being the aggressor. Worse still, even though both parties are guilty in the ongoing conflict, the US really only supports one side and the support is substantial. We give them tons of money, military weapons and equipment, and we essentially render the UN useless by throwing our weight behind Israel every chance we get. Did you know that Israel has broken over 30 UN resolutions?

the Zionist ideology is based on hate and how Jews are above the other human .
Israeli is like NAZI state which has the OK’s for everything it does from the security council  
i don’t know  how they justify killing kids and women in the name the war against Hamas it’s ridiculous thing to say the most stupid thing is that how come US Vito for any decision Israeli made without seeing the fact that Israeli is nothing but a killing machine
about history the Palestinian  are great people i had few friends of them (BTW do u know that Palestinian is the most educated people in the world i mean mostly who lives outside Israeli border)
  Palestine had so many Civilizations through history from Israeli kingdom which didn’t last that long by the way and Kennan Arab kingdom
Roman in there’s 2 phases in Roman time and byzantine â€" Islamic empire in 2 phases and the Europeans crusades then the Egyptian then Ottoman empire and British (ask the Greek about history LOL)
it’s ok to have many Civilizations but it’s not ok to kill people and force them to leave as the Israeli army had done by lead of Ben gorien
 in ARAb-Israeli war in 1948
the Palestinian  had their land and the Israeli forces come to their houses and through them away imagine someone who did that to u
don’t u have to furious or not?
the land was to Palestinian  Israeli came i don’t mind seeing Israeli state but i do mind when i see that a country raises on the grave of the Palestinian  people
it’s sad tragedy
 :mad:

I say we nuke it and be done with it.  

if israel should be handed back to its rightful owners then shouldn`t the u.s. be handed back to its rightful owners, or should the israeli`s just exterminate the palestinians, as america did with the native indians. maybe many of you need a history lesson. the palestine has always had a large jewish population. what they suffered from was a couple of thousand years of occupation and when the oportunity came to re claim their land, they took it. in essence possession is nine tenths of the law. then again why not let the italians claim it, they occupied it for a couple of hundred years, or maybe  the parthians or egypt.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "wazzz"so two pain in the ass in one place  :mad:

You mean to the people who legally paid for it?

IOW the Jewish people?

Kyu

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Honestly, I'm so tired of this "holy land" crap. I don't have some big diatribe to go on. I just wanted to say that.

It's stupid and people are killing each other for no good reason. Period.

Yep. The only people living in that area whom i don't label 'fucking idiots' are the ones who have no religious affiliation whatsoever... Which i guess represents 0.00001% of the population of Palestine and Israel.

Here (http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm)'s an "Israel vs. Palestine" For Dummies sorta thing. It's an interesting situation. Stupid, but interesting. (The link may be biased; I didn't go through it with a fine-toothed comb.)

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Honestly, I'm so tired of this "holy land" crap. I don't have some big diatribe to go on. I just wanted to say that.

It's stupid and people are killing each other for no good reason. Period.

Yep. The only people living in that area whom i don't label 'fucking idiots' are the ones who have no religious affiliation whatsoever... Which i guess represents 0.00001% of the population of Palestine and Israel.

Look I know that one can argue ad nauseum about whether Israel should or should not be there but for now let's just take it as a given that they are and that they legally, by both UN mandate and purchase, own the land Israel now sits on.

Israel has a democratically elected government (yes so does Palestine) and a significant part of ANY government's role is to protect it's people from all enemies foreign and domestic so, given that (on an event by event basis), it seems to me (from my admittedly simplistic POV) that it is nearly always the Palestinian based forces who fire first, that the Palestinian-based forces nearly always break existing agreements, that the Palestinian-based forces nearly always target soft (civilian) targets and base their weaponry in soft (civilian) areas (both significant characteristics of terrorism) just out of curiosity (humour me here) ... what exactly do you expect the Israeli government to do?

It seems to me (and I know my view is simplistic, I'm no politician) that the Israeli's (who I am sure are no angels) have no other choice but to hit them and hit them really frakking hard because if they don't they are failing in a prime part of their mandate.

This is based on something I wrote a while back during another Palestine/Israeli incident):

I wonder what a government (any government) is supposed to do in situations like these ... if someone, anyone but lets say for example the English county of Cornwall (which does or has claimed it should be independent), started a terror campaign like the Palestinians, hitting almost exclusively at civilians, suicide bombings, bombings & shootings on a nearly daily basis, men, women & children getting killed or mutilated including some I know and love! This is the scenario I am outlining ... perhaps a little analogous to Palestine?

I live in democracy, that democracy is not perfect, some people do not have the same rights as others but the recognised method of dealing with such claims is to vote in a representative of a party who will move your country closer to the kind of country you want it to be and, by virtue of voting that government (even if it is not my government of choice) in I effectively enter a pact with it. The deal I make is that I agree, in broad terms, to support their actions (or at least not to oppose them in any way more than peaceful protest), to allow them to proceed for around 5 years with the policies they have outlined in their manifesto and I will even tolerate some of things I do not like provided they do not go too far.

And what do I demand in return? Amongst other things I demand that my government protects me and mine from all enemies foreign and domestic. In the event that we are attacked by a foreign power I want my government to mount a sufficiently capable force to not only defend us but to drive the bastards back to where they came, to force them (not us) to sue for peace! If the enemy is internal then I expect my government to take appropriate action to protect the lives of those I care about and protect the perceived rights of the population in general.

So, given the scenario I have outlined, what would I expect my government to do? Negotiate with them? Perhaps but not until the slaughter stops ... until then I would want them to stop the slaughter with every possible means at their disposal. Honestly I would! If that means bringing in tanks, planes, bombs, guns & soldiers then so be it! That is one of the reasons I voted my government in ... so they would protect me, my family, those I love AND uphold the principles for which our nation now stands!

Now would I want to kill children ... the answer is an emphatic no! But the question, in reality, is how far would I go to protect the lives of those I love (men, women & children) and the answer is ... I don't know, I really don't know! If my child were killed (by them) would I care? If the child of a friend whom I knew and loved almost as my own were to be killed would I care? Where does that care for the children of your own local or wider community stop? In such a situation would I care overmuch whether innocents on the other side died? Isn't that what we did when we blitzed German cities in the war? What did the US pioneers do to the children of some Indian tribes, Australians to Aborigines and the British to just about everybody? How far would you, I or anybody else go in defence of their nation?

Returning to Palestine ... we have a situation that is almost unimaginable by our standards. In Palestine we have terrorists who have decided to buck the democratic process and take action independently at those they consider to be the infidel and I am sure there are those who would argue they are freedom fighters not terrorists but I disagree. These people strike almost exclusively at soft, non-military targets, their one and only aim is to spread terror, to put the Israeli's in so much fear for their lives that they will give in to almost any demand ... ergo they ARE terrorists. In Palestine we have a government that is tasked with the duty of protecting the people who voted it into office. In Palestine we have populations that are under a state of siege, people are being killed, arguably innocent men, women & children ... dying for no other reason than they are in the wrong part (of Israel) at the wrong time and have dared to stand & not run in the face of a hate-filled enemy, dared to consider it their home!
 
Broadly speaking, I accept the concept of collateral damage in war and I would consider what's happening in Palestine to be a war. No, I don't support the killing/maiming of children if it is in any way preventable and in this case I think it almost certainly was even if it was an error of some kind (the mistake should not have happened).

However, to my knowledge, the Israeli government have backed off on a number of occasions, they have attempted to get the peace process back on track but the bombers still came. I guess what I want to ask is what is that government supposed to do?

Interestingly of course the situation has changed slightly ... before everyone used to claim Israel was guilty of state terrorism (quite possibly are still claiming that) but now there has been a shift in that a terrorist group has now been elected to government ... in Palestine and that same group, Hamas, is firing terrorist-style on Israel so we now have an actual, quite literal, case of state-terrorism. Does that change the situation ... in my view yes because not only is it the actual state of Palestine's own forces that is attacking Israel but that Government was democratically elected so in essence this is no longer a local police type action but an implicit declaration of war by one state upon another. Given that that is so I see few reasons why Israel shouldn't grind Palestine into the dust and make that little patch of desert into something useful like they have with other parts of Israel.

My view has changed since I wrote the bit in blue above but not that much ... to be honest the only real reason I can think to say Israel should stop doing what it is doing is the absolute inequality in terms of armaments but then, as one US General said when reporters commented on the superiority of US firepower in Afghanistan that the last thing they sought was equality, that they sought pure and simple to win.

Oh and BTW I don't think the Israeli's (generally) are idiots, certainly no more than any other Western nation.

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"...that they are and that they legally, by both UN mandate and purchase, own the land Israel now sits on.

...Then what's the deal with the military occupation of Palestine?

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Look I know that one can argue ad nauseum about whether Israel should or should not be there but for now let's just take it as a given that they are and that they legally, by both UN mandate and purchase, own the land Israel now sits on.

I have to disagree. Israel was allowed, by the UN, certain land. They've extended well beyond that land into what was allowed to Palestine by the UN.

Please see the image linked below. The second image shows the 1947 boarders of Israel and Palestine established by the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Those were the last legally established borders. In 1967, as a result of the Six-Day War, Israel illegally* annexed the difference between the second and third image, which was deemed illegal by Security Council resolution 242. Israel was called on by the UN to withdraw from the occupied territories and return to 1947 borders. Israel ignored this.

The fourth image shows, basically, what it looks like today.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/albums/maps_media/lg_044x.jpg

*while under international law it's legal to annex land of an enemy in time of war, Palestine was never officially in the Six Day War. The nations involved were Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq.

Quote from: "Willravel"I have to disagree. Israel was allowed, by the UN, certain land. They've extended well beyond that land into what was allowed to Palestine by the UN.

BING!-o

 

isreal throw the Palestinian anyway in 1948 war it's not who should own the land it's a matter of people u forced them to leave just to make ur raises  and still do .

In short, They are all idiots. None of this crap would be happening if both sides didn't think they had a god-given right to that small spot of dirt and sand.

If they really wanted peace (something i don't think either side really wants) then they would choose each others government. That way, neither side would have a radical government at the helm proclaiming the death of anyone silly enough to have a difference of opinion - which is essentially what this is - a difference of opinion giving both sides the assumed right to kill each other.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"...that they are and that they legally, by both UN mandate and purchase, own the land Israel now sits on.

...Then what's the deal with the military occupation of Palestine?

Quote from: "willravel"I have to disagree. Israel was allowed, by the UN, certain land. They've extended well beyond that land into what was allowed to Palestine by the UN.

Buffer zone ... not saying it's right in this day & age (certainly not to build communities in) but it is understandable given the attacks Israel has near constantly been subjected to. Why should they give the land back UNTIL they have a definite and demonstrated commitment by surrounding nations to stop the attacks and enforce peace?

Quote from: "Asmodean"BING!-o

Idealistic bunk-o

Kyu

Quote from: "karadan"In short, They are all idiots. None of this crap would be happening if both sides didn't think they had a god-given right to that small spot of dirt and sand.

If they really wanted peace (something i don't think either side really wants) then they would choose each others government. That way, neither side would have a radical government at the helm proclaiming the death of anyone silly enough to have a difference of opinion - which is essentially what this is - a difference of opinion giving both sides the assumed right to kill each other.

I agree ... I think the hatred now runs so deep that it will probably never be resolved (although I once would have said that was true of Ireland).

My argument is that the Israeli's don't deserve the bad press they get as they have little choice but to do what they do and that they probably make a lot better use of the land that the Palestinians would (you only need to consider what the land was before New Israel and look at Jordan to see what it probably would have been like.

Kyu

Quote from: "karadan"In short, They are all idiots. None of this crap would be happening if both sides didn't think they had a god-given right to that small spot of dirt and sand.

Honestly, at the end of the day it does boil down to this. This belief that one is entitled by god to some land is, quite simply, completely insane. It goes beyond arguing that the earth is 6,000 years old. It goes beyond showing up at my doorstep on a Saturday morning to discuss mythology. It's sick, violent madness.

Quote from: "karadan"If they really wanted peace (something i don't think either side really wants) then they would choose each others government. That way, neither side would have a radical government at the helm proclaiming the death of anyone silly enough to have a difference of opinion - which is essentially what this is - a difference of opinion giving both sides the assumed right to kill each other.

One of the down sides of democracy can be seen when you have a desperate population. It turns from reasonable representation to mob rule.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Buffer zone ... not saying it's right in this day & age (certainly not to build communities in) but it is understandable given the attacks Israel has near constantly been subjected to. Why should they give the land back UNTIL they have a definite and demonstrated commitment by surrounding nations to stop the attacks and enforce peace?

That's just it, there have been attacks from each side consistently for decades. It's not been attacks on Israel and then measured responses; there have been unprovoked attacks on Palestine, killing many, many people, by Israel. And even if it was just radical Palestinian extremists attacking Israel, that's not all of Palestine, just radical elements. It doesn't give a nation permission to rewrite their borders.

The US has been fighting the drug war for decades. Most of the drugs coming into the US come from Mexico. What if the US moved our border across the Rio Grande during a drug raid and then refused to move it back? Would you be surprised if Mexicans were furious with their homes being taken? I'm not excusing their behavior, but you always, always have to understand someone in order to deal with them. Israel doesn't care to understand Palestine. They (most of the Israeli government and a lot of the Israeli public) want the Palestinians out of Israel. It's not about peace, it's about finishing the job of conquering the holy land.

Quote from: "Willravel"That's just it, there have been attacks from each side consistently for decades. It's not been attacks on Israel and then measured responses; there have been unprovoked attacks on Palestine, killing many, many people, by Israel. And even if it was just radical Palestinian extremists attacking Israel, that's not all of Palestine, just radical elements. It doesn't give a nation permission to rewrite their borders.

Though there has been violence on both side, as far as I know, the first strikes have almost exclusively been against the Israeli's (once the nation was established).  

Quote from: "Willravel"The US has been fighting the drug war for decades. Most of the drugs coming into the US come from Mexico. What if the US moved our border across the Rio Grande during a drug raid and then refused to move it back? Would you be surprised if Mexicans were furious with their homes being taken? I'm not excusing their behavior, but you always, always have to understand someone in order to deal with them. Israel doesn't care to understand Palestine. They (most of the Israeli government and a lot of the Israeli public) want the Palestinians out of Israel. It's not about peace, it's about finishing the job of conquering the holy land.

Personally I think that's a non sequitur but broadly speaking if the problem was bad enough and the government of Mexico were doing nothing about it (or as current actually aiding and abetting the action) I'd say it was understandable just like I have with Israel.

Surely, given my stance on war and peace, you didn't expect me to side with your argument? .

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Though there has been violence on both side, as far as I know, the first strikes have almost exclusively been against the Israeli's (once the nation was established).

That's not always the case. Take this current situation for example. Did you know that Israel broke the so called 6-month ceasefire? Back in November an Israeli raid killed 6 Palestinians, breaking the ceasefire. That set off the Hamas rockets, firing in response. Israel started this recent conflict. And this isn't the first time.

Quote from: "Willravel"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Though there has been violence on both side, as far as I know, the first strikes have almost exclusively been against the Israeli's (once the nation was established).

That's not always the case. Take this current situation for example. Did you know that Israel broke the so called 6-month ceasefire? Back in November an Israeli raid killed 6 Palestinians, breaking the ceasefire. That set off the Hamas rockets, firing in response. Israel started this recent conflict. And this isn't the first time.

Not always, never said it was, but more often and I wonder what exactly caused that raid you mention?

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Not always, never said it was,

That's true. Still, the fact that this recent conflict was started by Israel probably tells us it's not that rare.

I googled israel attacks unprovoked (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+attacks+unprovoked&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=) and scanned the first few responses.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"but more often and I wonder what exactly caused that raid you mention?

It depends on who you ask. Several news agencies parroted the story provided by the Israeli government; some Palestinian gunmen were tunneling into Israel from Gaza. Unfortunately, this hasn't been corroborated and the Israeli government is famous for inventing "actionable intelligence" in order to excuse attacks on Gaza and the West Bank. I've seen reports on Palestinian blogs that Israel was targeting Hamas leadership and failed to hit the target, killing several Hamas militants (but there's no mention of any tunneling). I've also read that they hit civilians.

Quote from: "Willravel"It depends on who you ask. Several news agencies parroted the story provided by the Israeli government; some Palestinian gunmen were tunneling into Israel from Gaza. Unfortunately, this hasn't been corroborated and the Israeli government is famous for inventing "actionable intelligence" in order to excuse attacks on Gaza and the West Bank. I've seen reports on Palestinian blogs that Israel was targeting Hamas leadership and failed to hit the target, killing several Hamas militants (but there's no mention of any tunneling). I've also read that they hit civilians.

Yeah well the first casualty in war is truth so ...

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Yeah well the first casualty in war is truth so ...

Indeed. And it's the last one to recover in the aftermath too.

You know what's interesting? No-one has jumped on me in a fury like Hell hath no for my anti-Israel view... I like the people on this forum more and more every day  :unsure:

Quote from: "Asmodean"You know what's interesting? No-one has jumped on me in a fury like Hell hath no for my anti-Israel view... I like the people on this forum more and more every day  :unsure:

The implication of yiur remarks is that you see yourself as the outsider or a bit unusual in being anti-Israeli ... I'm kinda pro-Israeli (not totally but it would be pointless to deny that I am am more pro Israeli than Palestinian)and in my experience most, if they have a view at all, tend to empathise with the little guy (the Palestinians) so I wouldn't see you as such (indeed I tend to see being pro-Israeli as being the less popular POV).

I don't think being anti-Israeli equates to being anti-Semite and yes, you are correct to say that modern day Israel is not, by blood, Jewish ... I don't think it matters much though as every nation in the world has dubious things in their past (Israel is just a bit more recent).

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"The implication of yiur remarks is that you see yourself as the outsider or a bit unusual in being anti-Israeli ...

I am. In a way. Most people I know tend to either support Israel to varying degrees or not care.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"...that I am am more pro Israeli than Palestinian...

Yup. That's the common view right there - at least among the people I've spoken of this to.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"and in my experience most, if they have a view at all, tend to empathise with the little guy (the Palestinians)

Only the Palestinians happen to be Muslim and that defaults them to the last place in line for support in far too many eyes.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"so I wouldn't see you as such (indeed I tend to see being pro-Israeli as being the less popular POV).

That's interesting... The same experiences with different standpoints... It appears that the safest thing in this particular conflict is not to care...  :P

Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus: (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-renderings.com%2Fimages%2FISRAEL.gif&hash=c679cf2ec03ba3e1572f0396c546e9c829d21b44)
Am I wrong in making the next step?

What all of the Israeli apologists forget is Palestine has no army.  They have no way of defending themselves.  Unfortunately, terrorism is there only option to retaliate and the only thing that receives attention from the western world.  And doubly unfortunate are the "collateral damages" to innocent people on both sides, but lopsidedly in favor of the Israelis.  

Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

Yes, to be honest, it seems obvious that Israel is simply interested in either driving our or killing every Palestinian. And they'll succeed as long as they have US support.

It will all boil down to WW3.  :D  

Quote from: "DennisK"Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus: (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-renderings.com%2Fimages%2FISRAEL.gif&hash=c679cf2ec03ba3e1572f0396c546e9c829d21b44)

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

Quote from: "DennisK"What all of the Israeli apologists forget is Palestine has no army.  They have no way of defending themselves.  Unfortunately, terrorism is there only option to retaliate and the only thing that receives attention from the western world.  And doubly unfortunate are the "collateral damages" to innocent people on both sides, but lopsidedly in favor of the Israelis.  

And what the Palestinian Apologists forget is that Jews bought the land for their country lock, stock & barrel, that whilst civilians may get hurt/killed they are collateral (Israeli forces typically strike at military targets) and that maybe they don't have a formal army but maybe that's because they frakked it up themselves?

Quote from: "DennisK"Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  :crazy:

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"

Quote from: "DennisK"Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus: (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-renderings.com%2Fimages%2FISRAEL.gif&hash=c679cf2ec03ba3e1572f0396c546e9c829d21b44)

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

They are an oppressed people and have been for a long time.  The only way they can have a chance is with outside help, however, if someone were to donate money to their cause, they would be "aiding the terrorists".  You could write to your congressman in hopes that he or she might do something.  Unfortunately, the US is so married to the Israelis, it would be a difficult fight.  Since this takes too much effort even to think about, I'm going to take the easy way out like you and blame the oppressed.  Fuck the Palestinians!  Hey, that felt kinda good.

We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

Quote from: "DennisK"Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

Israel keep attacking Palestine becuase of terrorist activity and attacks. So, the Palestinians mount more terrorist attacks in retaliation, great idea.

You also imply Isreal is bombing without due care to civillians. Even if this was true, something I highly doubt, it is still better than the way Hamas operates, they deliberatley target civillian population centres. Maybe if they did nto store their explosives in crowded urban areas and launch rockets from schools, Israel would not be so inclined to bomb them?

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"And I repeat that the Israeli's owned their land...

Owning land and establishing a new government are two different things. I'd be fine if Jewish people wanted to move into my neighborhood. I'd not be fine if, with UN assistance, they established their own government simply because they owned a lot of land. And I'd be pissed if they started forcing out my friends and family. And I'd be really, really pissed if they didn't allow my people in government, didn't listen to my concerns, and still taxed me. I'd be livid if my tax dollars were being used to kill innocent people that used to be my friends and neighbors. I would be enraged if I was forcibly removed from my home and my family had to live in deeply impoverished refugee camps that were bombed at least once a week.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "DennisK"Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

Israel keep attacking Palestine becuase of terrorist activity and attacks. So, the Palestinians mount more terrorist attacks in retaliation, great idea.

You also imply Isreal is bombing without due care to civillians. Even if this was true, something I highly doubt, it is still better than the way Hamas operates, they deliberatley target civillian population centres. Maybe if they did nto store their explosives in crowded urban areas and launch rockets from schools, Israel would not be so inclined to bomb them?

Listen, I'm not an apologist for Hamas' actions.  Violence begets more violence and it is sickening.  I'm trying to point out that it's not hard to envision that many see no other option.  And it's not the Palestinian people as a whole who are doing this, but it is them who are suffering.  What do you propose they do?  What diplomatic options do they have?  We are brainwashed into thinking all middle easterners are lowlife terrorists.  We only see pictures of the fringe fundamentalists loaded to the teeth and screaming "death to America", yet we condemn Arab news organizations who do the same thing.

Here is a site with some death comparisons: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Quote from: "DennisK"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

I didn't say you did, I said the picture did so whoever created the picture ... whoever created the picture wouldn't know objectivity if it was a dead kipper beating him repeatedly around the head.

Quote from: "DennisK"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

I'm saying that the better press are not that stupid ... whenever they report these things it is clear to me that Israel is doing no more than protect their people as any government has to. I no more take what the Israeli's say at face value than what the Palestinians say, likewise for each state's supporters.

Quote from: "DennisK"As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

Oh right ... and the Afghan bombers? The Iraqi bombers? Iranian Jihadists, IRA? And so on? Are these all doing that for entirely justifiable reasons? Fer frakk's sake man they elected a bunch of terrorists to lead them!!! What the frakk else is Israel supposed to do?

Of course what the reason could be is that they are held in poverty by their own people because their own people want to spend the money they get/make on armaments and want to attack the Israeli's who they view as interloper's in their land.

Quote from: "DennisK"They are an oppressed people and have been for a long time.  The only way they can have a chance is with outside help, however, if someone were to donate money to their cause, they would be "aiding the terrorists".  You could write to your congressman in hopes that he or she might do something.  Unfortunately, the US is so married to the Israelis, it would be a difficult fight.  Since this takes too much effort even to think about, I'm going to take the easy way out like you and blame the oppressed.  Fuck the Palestinians!  Hey, that felt kinda good.

Smack your head against a brick wall all you like ... it doesn't make you right nor I wrong. There are bad things everywhere and the Israeli's impress me with what they have done, they're no angels (what country is?)

I have few doubts the Israeli voice is strong in the US.

Quote from: "DennisK"We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

So you've decided that because I disagree with you I have been brain washed? That about right?

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"

Quote from: "DennisK"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

I didn't say you did, I said the picture did so whoever created the picture ... whoever created the picture wouldn't know objectivity if it was a dead kipper beating him repeatedly around the head.
- My bad, sorry.  Can you refute the map, though?

Quote from: "DennisK"

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

I'm saying that the better press are not that stupid ... whenever they report these things it is clear to me that Israel is doing no more than protect their people as any government has to. I no more take what the Israeli's say at face value than what the Palestinians say, likewise for each state's supporters.
If you believe in a "better press" you are vulnerable to propaganda as we all are in some way.  Most news is governed by elite who have the power to dictate what is being reported and what is not.  Some pull off a better illusion of free press than others, but how can you know what is the truth?  Even if there existed a non biased press, how do you know they aren't being manipulated externally?

Quote from: "DennisK"As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

Oh right ... and the Afghan bombers? The Iraqi bombers? Iranian Jihadists, IRA? And so on? Are these all doing that for entirely justifiable reasons? Fer frakk's sake man they elected a bunch of terrorists to lead them!!! What the frakk else is Israel supposed to do?
By all means, yes, the leaders of these groups have their own justifications.  They sell the idea of "terrorism" and it's awful.  Fortunately for them, it's not a hard sell given the oppressive atmosphere usually accompanying such acts.  Whether innocent people are targeted or not, look at the in-proportionate amount of innocent people killed on the Palestinian side.  Or we can just write them off as "collateral damage"?  It kinda rolls off the tongue. :brick:

Smack your head against a brick wall all you like ... it doesn't make you right nor I wrong. There are bad things everywhere and the Israeli's impress me with what they have done, they're no angels (what country is?)
No, but blindly following propaganda on any issue makes us all wrong.  Usually in history, whoever is gaining the most is manipulating the best.

I have few doubts the Israeli voice is strong in the US.
Obviously, yes.  Why is that?

Quote from: "DennisK"We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

So you've decided that because I disagree with you I have been brain washed? That about right?
If you are not taking any perspectives into consideration other than your preconceived hypothesis, then yes, you are one step closer to eradicating free thought in your mind.

Kyu[/quote]

To empathize or sympathize with the Palestinians, doesn't mean you have to condone terrorist activity.  The same can be said of the Israelis.  You must see many perspectives in order to have the big picture or at least a bigger one.  Both sides are wrong.  I repeat, both sides are wrong.

We are all brainwashed to some degree.  By definition, you probably aren't conscious of it.  Don't take any "respected" press as gospel as our theistic friends do with their "book O' many answers".  Again, look who's gaining the most out of any situation.

Quote from: "DennisK"My bad, sorry.  Can you refute the map, though?

No nor am I interested in doing so ... it is enough for me that the author is biased.

Quote from: "DennisK"If you believe in a "better press" you are vulnerable to propaganda as we all are in some way.  Most news is governed by elite who have the power to dictate what is being reported and what is not.  Some pull off a better illusion of free press than others, but how can you know what is the truth?  Even if there existed a non biased press, how do you know they aren't being manipulated externally?

And you don't think I am capable of reading a number of reporters and forming my own opinion? Where did I say I swallowed what "the better press" says hook, line and sinker? When I refer to them in this fashion I am simply distinguishing them from the tabloid scumsheets.

Quote from: "DennisK"By all means, yes, the leaders of these groups have their own justifications.  They sell the idea of "terrorism" and it's awful.  Fortunately for them, it's not a hard sell given the oppressive atmosphere usually accompanying such acts.  Whether innocent people are targeted or not, look at the in-proportionate amount of innocent people killed on the Palestinian side.  Or we can just write them off as "collateral damage"?  It kinda rolls off the tongue.  

Or people can just be plain fucking gullible ... the 911 bombers for instance were typically well educated western cultured individuals who were taken in by all that Islamist terror-based crap. I have few doubts that Palestinian life is ad right now, I am simply not prepared to brand the Israeli's evil just because every other liberal idiot with an opinion thinks it's so.

Quote from: "DennisK"This is related to the problem, yes.  In your reasoning, however, one could conclude the Israelis are promoting more terrorist activity by oppressing the Palestinians, no?

Of that I have few doubts but my understanding is that Israel (through choice or pressure) has attempted to help the Palestinians as well. I imagine the situation is vastly more complex than you or I understand but it is important to understand that nations do not have moralities, they have interests.

Quote from: "DennisK"No, but blindly following propaganda on any issue makes us all wrong.  Usually in history, whoever is gaining the most is manipulating the best.

And again I point out that simply being of a different view to you DOES NOT make me blind.

Quote from: "DennisK"Why is that?

Dunno ... I'm not an American (thank frakk).

Quote from: "DennisK"If you are not taking any perspectives into consideration other than your preconceived hypothesis, then yes, you are one step closer to eradicating free thought in your mind.

And again ... just because my interpretations differ from yours does not make me someone who believes things without thought (IOW up your frakking arse Dennis).

Quote from: "DennisK"To empathize or sympathize with the Palestinians, doesn't mean you have to condone terrorist activity.  The same can be said of the Israelis.  You must see many perspectives in order to have the big picture or at least a bigger one.  Both sides are wrong.  I repeat, both sides are wrong.

IMO the Palestinians are more so.

Quote from: "DennisK"We are all brainwashed to some degree.  By definition, you probably aren't conscious of it.  Don't take any "respected" press as gospel as our theistic friends do with their "book O' many answers".  Again, look who's gaining the most out of any situation.

I don't, I simply don't accept your conclusions ... perhaps I should or would I then simply be following you instead of the press?

Kyu

I don't want to derail anything, so let me just say how impressed I am with the level of discourse on the HAF. Anywhere else on the internet, and we'd have an angry, fanatical screaming match where the facts lose out to emotional arguments. Here we have calm and objective discussions based on facts. That we happen to interpret facts differently is almost an afterthought.

Color me impressed.  

Kyu,

I know I should have quoted you, but it takes me forever for me to make sure all my syntax is right before I post.

Map:  Tell me how it is wrong?  If you can prove it is incorrect, please do so.  It may very well be wrong.  If you can refute the map's accuracy, I will replace or remove the attachment.

Media:  All media is biased.  Not too long ago, I felt like you do now.  It was shoved down my throat from multiple American news sources how Israeli's were always victimized.  Palestinians all paraded in the streets after a suicide bombing.  Rarely are we ever shown Palestinians as victims.  Cross referencing stories from CBS to CNN does not bean you are able to bypass bias.  You don't have to dig far to see the Israeli government has a history of being the aggressors since its inception.

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"And you don't think I am capable of reading a number of reporters and forming my own opinion

No, but you seem to dismiss anything that is not in your comfort zone only taking in ideas that satisfy your status quo.  We all do it in one way or another.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth.  The act of dropping a bomb is a war crime.  And white phosphorus bombs are banned by the Geneva Convention for use in civilian areas.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm

Quote from: "DennisK"Tell me how it is wrong?  If you can prove it is incorrect, please do so.  It may very well be wrong.  If you can refute the map's accuracy, I will replace or remove the attachment.

Dennis, do as you wish ... I've already explained I am not interested in the author's map now that I consider him or her biased.

Quote from: "DennisK"All media is biased.  Not too long ago, I felt like you do now.  It was shoved down my throat from multiple American news sources how Israeli's were always victimized.  Palestinians all paraded in the streets after a suicide bombing.  Rarely are we ever shown Palestinians as victims.  Cross referencing stories from CBS to CNN does not bean you are able to bypass bias.  You don't have to dig far to see the Israeli government has a history of being the aggressors since its inception.

I don't think you do understand my view on this ... I think you are overlaying what you would like to believe I think on to what I have actually said.

I do not do American news to any great extent.

Parading for what?

Whilst I am sure Israel is no angel, I don't agree they are the aggressor in this. ... indeed I think you are incredibly biased towards the Palestinians (and your remarks on "brainwashing" rather indicate you think I have an Israeli bias, I probably have but I've never equated bias with a lack of objectivity).

Quote from: "DennisK"No, but you seem to dismiss anything that is not in your comfort zone only taking in ideas that satisfy your status quo.  We all do it in one way or another.

Whatever!

Quote from: "DennisK"Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth.  The act of dropping a bomb is a war crime.  And white phosphorus bombs are banned by the Geneva Convention for use in civilian areas.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm

Um ... that link is from 2006 man ... if you're going to attack Israel for using these (which I concede is a possibility) at least cite something recent.

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"Um ... that link is from 2006 man ... if you're going to attack Israel for using these (which I concede is a possibility) at least cite something recent.

Yes, my apologies.  I should have been more thorough.

Here is an article that is from a biased source, so you probably don't want to read further.  Oh, that's right, bias doesn't interfere with objectivity, right?

QuoteCarolyn Harris
Infowars
January 10, 2009
“For us, being cautious means being aggressive,” one IDF officer told IPS, “When we suspect that a Palestinian fighter is hiding in a house, we shoot it with a missile and then with two tank shells, and then a bulldozer hits the wall. It causes damage but it prevents the loss of life among soldiers.” Due to the significant loss of military lives in the Lebanon war, Israeli military planners took into account the effect on Israeli morale and support during the war on Gaza.

“From the minute we entered, we’ve acted like we’re at war. That creates enormous damage on the ground,” the officer continued. In addition to so-called military targets, the IDF has bombed clearly marked UN buildings such as hospitals and several schools which has lead to many women and children - non-combatants - being massacred for doing nothing more than trying to shelter and hide from the fighting. These buildings were shelled even though the UN had clearly given the IDF the coordinates so that they would not be targeted.

More and more Palestinians are huddling in apartments without windows, weathering very cold nights without sleep as the bombs fall around them, terrified if the next one will fall upon their own heads. The Palestinian casualties keep mounting, with fully one-third being children said AFP on Wednesday.

Israel realized their ridiculous statement that there is no humanitarian crisis wasn’t beloved anywhere, and bowed to international pressure, agreeing to a ceasefire from 1-4 pm daily, to “establish a humanitarian corridor near Gaza city.” Although at Kamal Udwan Hospital, medics confirmed that east of Jabaliya Refugee Camp three sisters were killed from air strikes during the ceasefire period yesterday and others were wounded.

But the atrocities continue. Two members of the Palestinian Red Crescent (PRC) were attacked last week and in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza city the Ad-Dura hospital were bombed, in addition to three mobile clinics provided by DanChurchAid, a Danish relief agency.

The Palestinian Authority plans to launch a war crimes proceedings against Israeli leaders responsible, said Palestinian Authority (PA) delegate to Britain Professor Manuel Hassassian. It is believed that the IDF is using white phosphorous weapons against defenseless civilians, which causes horrific burn that are only made worse if water is put on the flesh. According to the Geneva Treaty of 1980 it is only acceptable to use the weapon for a smokescreen or for illumination. That loophole is wide enough to drive a convoy through and Israel is clearly exploiting it for its own political smokescreen so it will be able to maintain plausible deniability.

In addition, traces Depleted Uranium (DU) have been found in some of the Palestinian victims, said some Norwegian medics. This comes as no surprise as nearly all bullets and munitions used by America are DU and have been used freely in both the Bosnian conflict and the Iraq war. When a DU munition explodes, it turns into an extremely volatile flaming gas and then leaves micron-sized ceramic dust particles that re-suspend easily into the air, and are breathed into the lungs. Breathing DU dust is the most lethal method of exposure and the Palestinians surely have no place to go to escape this lethal dust. If the bombs, white phosphorous weapons or starvation doesn’t kill them, the DU may.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ev6ojm62qwA&hl=en&fs=1

I'm giving up because you have one opinion and I have another ... neither of us will ever convince the other he is right.

Quote from: "DennisK"Here is an article that is from a biased source, so you probably don't want to read further.  Oh, that's right, bias doesn't interfere with objectivity, right?

I will however answer this ...

... I am biased towards reason and logic and away from faith and wishful thinking yet I consider myself to be relatively objective.

As Dawkins says, just because two points of view are expressed with equal intensity does not mean the truth lies exactly halfway in between ... it is possible for one argument to simply be wrong.

IOW, bias can be justified and does not necessary mean a lack of objectivity. Objectivity and bias (lack of) are not the same thing.

Kyu

THREE DAYS LATER: I must be right then, all hail me  

Kyu

What exactly are you reveling in?  Because I refrained from keeping this thread going knowing it was getting neither of us anywhere, and more importantly, it was benefiting no one.  Claiming the truth is not exactly in the middle of two points of view is you only saying that you are more right than I.  How should I rebut?  Nu-uh, I call I'm more right!  It's pointless.  

This will be my last post on this issue so if that gives you more "points" than I, so be it.

israel was created by victorious anglo-american states to create a lobby domestically and have an excuse for ME war mongering.  economically, militarally and legally the Federal Empire is the only reason israel exists.  ironically, both governments are failing fascist regimes using genocidal terrorism to avoid domestic unrest.  this shit is as old as governments.

As Will has already posted regarding the good level of civil discourse on this topic, it is my hope that it remains so. Please keep the discourse above the level of an angry, fanatical, screaming match. Thank you all.

Quote from: "DennisK"What exactly are you reveling in?  Because I refrained from keeping this thread going knowing it was getting neither of us anywhere, and more importantly, it was benefiting no one.  Claiming the truth is not exactly in the middle of two points of view is you only saying that you are more right than I.  How should I rebut?  Nu-uh, I call I'm more right!  It's pointless.  

This will be my last post on this issue so if that gives you more "points" than I, so be it.

FYI I WAS NOT claiming I was more right, indeed (on the subject of Israel) I explicitly said you had one POV and I had another and that neither of us would persuade each other, I was merely claiming that your cynicism concerning my claim that bias did not equate to a lack of objectivity was inherently flawed ... virtually everyone in this forum knows that is true because they have rejected religion (they are biased against it) yet no doubt still consider themselves relatively objective.

Please read and reply to the points actually made.

Kyu