Happy Atheist Forum

i honestly dont think it exists. i see it as an illusion. when i decide on what to eat for dinner, say steak, did i freely choose it? or was it governed by many different factors such as how long its been since i had a steak, a commercial i saw, or a current lack of protein that makes a steak sound appetizing. are we all acting on impulses or can we truly choose what we want. even if we choose what we want, we didnt choose to want it. what makes us do the things we do? i believe that every person is always choosing the most beneficial option for themselves when making a decision. can you think of an instance when a person EVER made a choice  where they knew the correct action, had the ability to take that action, and being fully aware of the consequences and able to avoid them, still chose the wrong option? i cant. in every instance i can think of, the person who made the wrong choice did so because they thought it would be more beneficial for them in some way (an evolved behavior).

right about now you may be wondering why i posted this under religion instead of philosophy. well, its because i (not believing in free will) do not see any need for a savior. i do not believe responsibility for sin. this, in my view, blows jesus right off of the water. there is no evil in this world, only misguided actions. i could type on this for pages, but ill stop here to leave room for discussion. tell me what you think, if the forces at play in your life cause you to do so...

after a little research, i found that this philosophy is called "hard determinism." here is a link for anyone interested:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/FREE.HTM (http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/FREE.HTM)

Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"after a little research, i found that this philosophy is called "hard determinism." here is a link for anyone interested:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/FREE.HTM (http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/FREE.HTM)

Was wondering when you'd run across that.   I was going to post something about it earlier today, but we got a shipment of 891 books two hours before closing and I was... busy, to say the least. Also check out Compatibilism and Metaphysical libertarianism.

Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"can you think of an instance when a person EVER made a choice  where they knew the correct action, had the ability to take that action, and being fully aware of the consequences and able to avoid them, still chose the wrong option? i cant. in every instance i can think of, the person who made the wrong choice did so because they thought it would be more beneficial for them in some way (an evolved behavior).

I liked the steak reference, as you wonder if you wanted that steak because of some outside influence.  I am thinking though that free will is evident in any decision made or action taken that is in direct opposition of what the person is "supposed" to do.  I'm supposed to be doing laundry today so I am nice and clean-pressed for work tomorrow, instead I am posting on this forum.  What about those people that burned for exercising their free will and not accepting the teachings of the Vatican?  Maybe I need a better example of what you consider not to be an exercise of free will to better determine what you mean. (I'll read the link you posted after, just wanted to get some of your thoughts...)

Do you not consider it free will when the person may benefit from taking what you call the wrong action?

I am undecided on free will.  While there are many reasons to think that it doesn't actually exist, I am not convinced that we can know for sure.  There is simply a whole bunch we still do not know about our minds even though we do know a hell of a lot more than we use to.  I wonder how it would affect the judicial system if it was determined without a doubt that free will doesn't exist?  Not only would the religious people be mass rioting but it would also call into question what sort of punishment is right for someone who was only doing what they were programmed by nature to do.  If there is no free will, are those who think differently broken in some sense?

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I am undecided on free will.  While there are many reasons to think that it doesn't actually exist, I am not convinced that we can know for sure.  There is simply a whole bunch we still do not know about our minds even though we do know a hell of a lot more than we use to.  I wonder how it would affect the judicial system if it was determined without a doubt that free will doesn't exist?  Not only would the religious people be mass rioting but it would also call into question what sort of punishment is right for someone who was only doing what they were programmed by nature to do.  If there is no free will, are those who think differently broken in some sense?

Good question and I would think the answer would be yes.  If there was proof of free will not existing then people would not be adhering to their external outputs and would therefore not be "right in the head", hehe.  That's even a little more thought provoking because if there is no free will then why do people stray from the pack?  Does that mean anyone exercising independent judgement on anything is somehow being coerced into it?

Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"i believe that every person is always choosing the most beneficial option for themselves when making a decision. can you think of an instance when a person EVER made a choice  where they knew the correct action, had the ability to take that action, and being fully aware of the consequences and able to avoid them, still chose the wrong option? i cant.

I actually agree with most of what you say, but this part isn't necessarily true, and I'll use myself as an example. Maybe I just subconsiously like holding on to the notion of free will, but I sometimes intentionally make the "wrong" decision when I get the impression that I'm expected to make a certain decision (that's why I'm not really refuting your belief entirely, because the idea of autonomy is beneficial for my"self"). For instance, a few years ago I had a friend drop me and my step-sister off at her/my parent's house, but they weren't home and she didn't have her key. I was able to climb up to her bedroom window and get in, then I unlocked the door and let her in. However, she didn't want to risk getting in trouble, since our parents had told her that they didn't want anybody using her window to get into the house. I conceded and we went outside again, locking the door behind us. A while later, our parents pull up and what's the first thing I say? "Guess what I did? I broke in, but then we decided to respect your wishes and came back outside!" Bone-headed and pointless, but it seemed like a funny thing to do at the time. She was grounded and I got a lecture.

Also, I think many people make the wrong decisions despite being capable of all the criteria you listed. Drug addicts, over-eaters, lazy people who don't work, etc. My stance on free will is still kind of similar to your's, I just think it's more of a grey area than an absolute, i.e. most of the time we don't excercise it simply because we don't really have to, but we are capable of it.

Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"i honestly dont think it exists.

I agree with you, but it's a helluva ride ain't it?  

Kyu

oooh, i have a lot to catch up on.

Quote from: "VanReal"What about those people that burned for exercising their free will and not accepting the teachings of the Vatican?  Maybe I need a better example of what you consider not to be an exercise of free will to better determine what you mean. (I'll read the link you posted after, just wanted to get some of your thoughts...)

Do you not consider it free will when the person may benefit from taking what you call the wrong action?

the people burned for their beliefs things is interesting to me because: can you choose a belief? i think not. and can you choose the values you have (that wont allow you to hide your true beliefs in order to avoid punishment)? this one is harder, but i still think not. the reason for this is that it is still caused. the only true free action can be one that is not caused by any outside influence. true free will would be chaotic and unpredictable. its like rolling a die. when a die is rolled, it seems to be a random occurrence, but if all of the physics of the first roll were recreated exactly, the die would show the same number every time. it is not random when all of the information is known. in the same way, i see every choice as a predictable result of a very complicated set of causes. they only seem random because we do not know all of the information. hope this is a better explanation. its late and im sleepy, so its probable that this wont make much sense when i read it later.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I wonder how it would affect the judicial system if it was determined without a doubt that free will doesn't exist?  Not only would the religious people be mass rioting but it would also call into question what sort of punishment is right for someone who was only doing what they were programmed by nature to do.  If there is no free will, are those who think differently broken in some sense?

oh boy. the question of justice gets very complicated when free will is taken out of the situation. it points to a bigger problem of how controlled we are. does a spider who eats her husband deserve to be judged? obviously not because she is acting how she is supposed to act. we feel like we should be held responsible for the things we do because we have knowledge of right and wrong, but this may be too subjective. maybe naturally we should not be forced to live within a justice system with a government, but since our laws create (for the most part) peace enough that we can focus on pursuits like art an science, we are choosing to subject ourselves to this against our nature for the better of the species. so maybe its a trade off. again, too sleepy to make a coherent statement.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"Also, I think many people make the wrong decisions despite being capable of all the criteria you listed. Drug addicts, over-eaters, lazy people who don't work, etc. My stance on free will is still kind of similar to your's, I just think it's more of a grey area than an absolute, i.e. most of the time we don't excercise it simply because we don't really have to, but we are capable of it.

drug addicts, over-eaters etc. even though they are told they are doing wrong, the benefits of doing drugs or over eating out weigh the perceived consequences. the reality of an od or heart attack are not as real to them as the satisfaction of fulfilling their habits. now if one of those people shoved a pool cue into their eyeball despite being of completely sound mind, i think i would retract my statements. now that would be FREE WILL!

a couple of you seem to fall under the category of soft determinism, which is also covered in the link i posted in the second post above. check it out, it gives both sides and then each sides reply to the other.

Followed the link; yeah, I definitly fall into the category of soft determinism.

Hard determinism may actually be more "realistic", I just can't deal with the hypocrisy that would inevitably result on my part if I were to cast any type of judgement on anybody for anything. So, i'm going to compromise and hold onto some of my biases. Ironically, you theists can feel free to rip on me for being a hypocrite now  

“It is part of the complementary aspect of the law that man and woman help to make the whole. Intuition can help where reason cannot give the answer. You are being given an opportunity to fulfill yourselves. You have free will. You may make your choice.

Life is not chance, accident or even coincidence. The whole of life is governed by immutable natural law. Whatever aspect of being you examine, it is due to natural law. Human beings are not outside the operation of natural law. They are integral parts of it.

Such a simple question...it drives one mad, doesn't it? While observing an ant colony I think.....hmmmmmmm.....no free will there at all....all genetically progammed......like robots....They even look like miniature aliens....LOL! While observing one of my pet cats....."Come here, Tigger....."....I plead....Some days they tell me yes....and other days no.......hmmmmm....I have to conclude, they have free will....but maybe I am too close to them to see that they really don't....Observing us all here on earth from someplace in space, it may look like this entire kit and kaboodle here is programmed....eh? Anyway, this question always hurt my brain...LOL!

I’ve got a sudden hankering for a big juicy steak dinner…

OK, I have concluded that there is free will within the other, where there is none...... :crazy: