Happy Atheist Forum

I have Discussed this with an Atheist friend of mine and would like to here other views. I have made the argument that Atheist lack a since of moral code because they have no after consequence. so were do they get there moral code and understanding. There Religious parents? if that’s the case than the Atheist morals are spread from that of there religious parents and are shaped by the Ideas that they no longer acknowledge. I mean no offense by this question i would just like better understanding on the issue.

Quote from: "Brock"I have discussed this with an atheist friend of mine and would like to hear other views. I have made the argument that atheists lack a sense of moral code because they have no after consequence. Were do they get there moral code and understanding? Their religious parents? If that’s the case, then an atheist's morals are spread from that of their religious parents and are shaped by the Ideas that they no longer acknowledge. I mean no offense by this question i would just like better understanding on the issue.

It's called the social contract. Right and wrong are an unspoken, assumed agreement between people of a given society. If you treat me well, I will treat you well.

Yup. Will said it and I'll repeat it: Social Contract.

Thank you, that actually makes a lot of sense. but Cant that same thing be tracked to the Bible or are you saying its just a natural human understood thing?

Oh, Social Contract pre-dates the Bible by thousands of years. Yes, you can trace it to the Bible and continue tracing it straight back. Some people prefer to stop at the Bible and say "Goddidit" though, thus ignoring that civilisations existed even before that.

It just came to me that I love examples, so I'll post one...

Lemmesee... Let us pretend for a second that I really don't like... Willravel for instance. Why do I not hit him in the eye then? Because then he might hit me back for starters. Why don't I kill him so he can't hit me back then? Because then his wife might come at me in a fury like Hell hath no. And even if she does not, the police sure will.

Is there anything of the Bible in it? No. It's a simple fact that I don't want anything bad to happen to me, so I try not to make others upset with me. Besides, if I'm nice to them, they may assist me with something I can't do alone.

This kind of behavior is not even limited to humans. For example, male elephant seals will try to settle a dispute with aggressive posturing rather than tearing chunks out of each other, they understand that fighting is detrimental to both of them and one is going to lose anyway. For them fighting is the last resort.

Aside from the obvious social contract justification, I just don't like hurting people. I might want someones ice cream, but wouldn't steal because I do not want to upset them.

The notion that religious people only act nicley due to the magic sky man telling them to is always one that disturbs me    .

Given that humans are social animals, and descend from a long line of social animals going back at least hundreds of thousands of years, I would say that a very basic 'morality' is probably hard-wired into our brains.  We have refined it and built on it, but I think it's in our nature to make some effort to get along with our fellows.  It's obviously stronger in some than in others, but I don't think that religion is required at all to live a moral life.  In fact we know only too well that many who do profess a religion live anything but moral lives.  I would go so far as to say that religion in the long run has little to do with the moral code that people (religious, or otherwise) live by on a day to day basis.  They may pay lip service to a certain religious moral code, but many times their actions are quite contradictory to that code.  It's often a much more realistic set of rules that govern their lives. Rules that could be put in the category of "common sense," which actually may be the manifestation of that social heredity I mentioned.
I readily admit I have no scientific credentials, and could not cite any studies to back up this thesis.  This is only my opinion on the subject.

Every time someone suggest that morals come from the bible, I cant help but think that the bible also says to stone your children to death if they ever speak back to their parents.
Nice morals eh
Atheists, like all people, get their morals from their parents, their school and their common sense. I dont want to hurt people, I feel no satisfaction in doing so, and like others mentioned above me, if I hurt someone he might want to hurt me back

The rules in the Bible come are cribbed from the Code of Hammurabi and assorted other legal documents which substantially predate the Bible.  The parts they didn't take from existing legal documents (yes, lawyers or their equivalent have been around for thousands of years) are strictly those parts which deal with belief in their specific God.  Those legal documents were commissioned by rulers to create uniform legal codes for the people of their domain to follow and apply.  They were all figured out by human judgment and trial and error.  This should explain the horrible Christian dichotomy of a loving God and all of the horrible, inhumane laws written in the Bible.  The laws were written by human beings with different ethics than our own, not by an all-knowing, loving God.

In my opinion, morals come from empathy.  Empathy is a survival trait because social animals require each other to survive.  I've already done a write up on this because Christians ask this question very frequently.  You can read it here. (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/480619/where_morality_comes_from_one_atheists.html?cat=47)

Quote from: "Brock"Thank you, that actually makes a lot of sense. but Cant that same thing be tracked to the Bible or are you saying its just a natural human understood thing?

Think of it this way.  If morals all originated from the Bible than people who follow other religions wouldn't have any morals.  However, I think we all know that people such as Hindus and Buddhists have morals.

Topic Split:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2478&p=31384#p31384 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2478&p=31384#p31384)

Please continue any discussion of morality in the bible in the above linked thread.

Thanks
-The Management

Morality is a pretty fascinating subject. It's still not completely figured out yet, and while there are some basics like social contract and reciprocal action, I would like the topic of morality to be discussed from an information theory point of view. I think that might be interesting.

anyone?

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Please continue any discussion of morality in the bible in the above linked thread.

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? (Ba-dum.)  

interesting side-note:  someone somewhere (i need to find the article...) did a study on moral milestones in children and found that the most indoctrinated kids reached the important checkpoints *after* their peers.

Morality seems to predate religions. Religion also seems to build on a purely human moral, the details of which likely relate to collective survival. By the time the Bible came along, humans were already settling in cities and towns. For that to happen without major collapse, humans had to have what we would now call a moral sense. The Bible also isn't the first historical text to talk about morality. It was FAR from the first book that dealt with morality. Morality does not need to integrate with a text. Morality is part of our lives, which is why some seem to follow it better than others.

There is a multitude of biological and evolutionary reasons humans as a whole have a moral and ethic code. While the individuals can't be judged against the population, populations can be judged against each other. You'll find, that characteristics such as empathy, and community help in a group's survival. This is an evolved trait through natural selection of societies. This isn't only true in humans, you can see this in any social type of animal (lions, chimpanzees, dolphins, whales, ect.)

I don't. I'm evil of course, just like every other atheist.  

Quote from: "Brock"I have Discussed this with an Atheist friend of mine and would like to here other views. I have made the argument that Atheist lack a since of moral code because they have no after consequence. so were do they get there moral code and understanding. There Religious parents? if that’s the case than the Atheist morals are spread from that of there religious parents and are shaped by the Ideas that they no longer acknowledge. I mean no offense by this question i would just like better understanding on the issue.

The problem with your question is that it relies on the assumption that there is an ultimate arbiter for morality and not only does a consistent morality not exist but there is no evidence for the arbiter.

In essence you need to justify why we must answer the question (especially since a brief trawl through the forum will reveal many, myself included, have answered the same to other theists many, many times).

Kyu

Sorry but this is a pet peeve: It's their not there.

Quote from: "Sophus"Sorry but this is a pet peeve: It's their not there.

Thank you Sophus! I was about to post the same comment...now I can just praise you for doing it  .

On the issue of morals, I believe there have been many good answers already. I especially agree with Kyu in that you mustn't assume that in order for morals to exist there must be an ultimate arbiter. I do the "right" thing (not always the same in every culture) for the good of my fellow humans, not to appeal to some guy/gal in the sky.

From their own conscience , From an inbuilt sense of what is right and what is wrong. Absolutely nothing to do with any religion.

Welcome to Happy Atheist Forum, Lark!

Quote from: "Sophus"Sorry but this is a pet peeve: It's their not there.

was gonna say that but I was scared people would see me as bitchy
thanks

Quote from: "MariaEvri"

Quote from: "Sophus"Sorry but this is a pet peeve: It's their not there.

was gonna say that but I was scared people would see me as bitchy
thanks

Not at all. Every time I see this thread title my left eye twitches. I just didn't say anything because I assumed someone else did. I was right.

Still: wtf.

Quote from: "Sophus"Sorry but this is a pet peeve: It's their not there.

Your absolutely write.  

Actually we atheist get our morals from a dark god whose name should not be spoken, and these morals are written in the blood of kittens which…

No really  Simple human decency… No god, no rule, no dogma, no fear of hell, no celestial bullying. Just us being plain human and with it act like a human. It’s not so hard to understand once you accept the fact that the responsibility for your action is on you and not in the hands of some space daddy.

This is actually a legitimate question and I am sure one that people of many religions have as they feel their behavior and morals come directly from their teachings.  It makes perfect sense because when raising children in religion you are indeed issuing them commands of acceptable moral behavior based on the teachings of your religions rules.  You can find the "Golden Rule" as it's referred to in Christianity in nearly all religions.  

Those of us that were not raised in non-belieiving households were probably exposed to these religious codes or rules from a very early age, so saying that some of our thought is not derived from those teachings is naiive.  However, many religions condone activity that persons outside of that particular religon would deem to be inately wrong and immoral.  So, to say morals come from religion is also naiive.

Morals and values come from people having to live together in some fashion that remains as civil as possible.  However, there are many morals and values that people have that would not be a part of this "social contract" as others have referred to.  It is morally acceptable in Texas society, for example, to kill an intruder in your home.  However, I would prefer to maim them or disable them so they couldn't cause me harm rather than to kill them.  Under our social contract I would be morally right in killing in this instance, personally I would not do so as I don't feel it moral to kill someone for burglary.  My point being I obtain my morals from many sources, and I reject the morals accepted from many sources.

Quote from: "VanReal"It is morally acceptable in Texas society, for example, to kill an intruder in your home.

Wow, if 'd kill an intruder in my house then I would spent many years in jail for manslaughter. I always thought that Texas was  "Christian" state, where they obey the biblical commandments. Wasn't "Thou shall not kill"  one of these commandments?

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "VanReal"It is morally acceptable in Texas society, for example, to kill an intruder in your home.

Wow, if 'd kill an intruder in my house then I would spent many years in jail for manslaughter. I always thought that Texas was  "Christian" state, where they obey the biblical commandments. Wasn't "Thou shall not kill"  one of these commandments?

For a second, it almost sounded like you think Christian morality, responsibility and actions are... logical and consistent!  ;)

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "VanReal"It is morally acceptable in Texas society, for example, to kill an intruder in your home.

Wow, if 'd kill an intruder in my house then I would spent many years in jail for manslaughter. I always thought that Texas was  "Christian" state, where they obey the biblical commandments. Wasn't "Thou shall not kill"  one of these commandments?

Hahaha!  Texas leads the way in capital punishment and also is one of the few states with the "he needed killing law"!  That is one of the jokes around here, if you can go to court and make the jury see that the victim was a "really bad person that needed killing" you are totally justified in your action.  It's still a little wild west out here, that's why I try to make sure to do a few good things each month for insurance against that, hehe.  Actually though I think Austin (our capitol city) has one of the largest atheist communities in the States.

Oklahoma use to have the tresspassers can be shot law.  However, I think they finally got rid of it a couple years ago.

When I was in high school it was still legal to drink and drive in Texas as long as the driver wasn't personally holding the open container.  It has since been kicked off the books.  Can you imagine a lot of drunk NRA rednecks driving around!

I remember that, the open container just needed to be out of reach of the driver!  My how things change.

I love those laws that protect us against immoral sexual behavior, here are a couple that I found at http://www.bertc.com/subfour/truth/sexlaws.htm (http://www.bertc.com/subfour/truth/sexlaws.htm)

An excerpt from brilliant Kentucky state legislation. "No female shall appear in a bathing suit on any highway within this state unless she be escorted by at least two officers or unless she be armed with a club". The following important amendment however is to be considered here: "The provisions of this statute shall not apply to females weighing less than 90 pounds nor exceeding 200 pounds, nor shall it apply to male horses."

Utah state legislation outlaws all sex with anyone but your spouse. Next to that adultery, oral and anal sex, masturbation are considered sodomy and can lead to imprisonment. Sex with an animal - unless performed for profit - however is NOT considered sodomy. Polygamy - provided only the missionary position has been applied - is only a misdemeanor.

In Lebanon, men are legally allowed to have sex with animals, but the animals must be female. Having sexual relations with a male animal is punishable by death.