Title: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: seasonsofmadness on December 30, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Post by: seasonsofmadness on December 30, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Ok so I was raised a Christian, and I have questioned the Bible for about as long as I can remember, but lately I've been looking into it more. One thing I can't really find a good answer for is how the Bible came about (especially the new testament), and who the people in it really are (especially the apostles). I've found interesting explanations of Jesus, and the gospels, but I can't find much about who the apostles actually were, or how they could all claim to be the voice of God, and agree with each other if God doesn't exist. I'm sure this has been discussed before, and I'm sure the answer is long, so I'm hoping somebody can give me some good links or something. Thanks.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: SSY on December 30, 2008, 12:32:30 PM
Post by: SSY on December 30, 2008, 12:32:30 PM
What makes you think they agree with each other to start with? The bible is chock full of contradictions.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: Wechtlein Uns on December 30, 2008, 04:27:42 PM
Post by: Wechtlein Uns on December 30, 2008, 04:27:42 PM
Well, the old testament was written by various members of the priestly class of the newly formed "Jews" during their self-exile from either egypt of babylon. From there, various scholars added and modified it, and the new testament was written by various people who believed in jesus and wanted to leave their indelible mark on him.
note* by "scholars", I mean ignorant goat herders who aren't smart enough to piss upstream and not defacate where they sleep.
note* by "scholars", I mean ignorant goat herders who aren't smart enough to piss upstream and not defacate where they sleep.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: McQ on December 30, 2008, 04:49:33 PM
Post by: McQ on December 30, 2008, 04:49:33 PM
Welcome to the forum. I'm sure you will get some good links from folks here. Definitely keep asking questions, and dig for the answers. There are so many good books available on biblical authorship. Try Googling that phrase and see what comes up. I thought the book, "The Gospel Fictions" by Randel Helms wasn't too bad either. Not the best, but a decent read, and addresses your question.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: curiosityandthecat on December 30, 2008, 07:02:38 PM
Post by: curiosityandthecat on December 30, 2008, 07:02:38 PM
Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"Well, the old testament was written by various members of the priestly class of the newly formed "Jews" during their self-exile from either egypt of babylon. From there, various scholars added and modified it, and the new testament was written by various people who believed in jesus and wanted to leave their indelible mark on him.
note* by "scholars", I mean ignorant goat herders who aren't smart enough to piss upstream and not defacate where they sleep.
Basically, yeah. The New Testament was written in order to fulfill Old Testament prophesies, thereby extending power to their own group. Organized religion is all about power. Even the canon of the New Testament was a powerplay by the then-in-charge church, later by Constantine and through the Council at Nicea. Ugh, I don't want to get started.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: SSY on December 31, 2008, 06:41:07 AM
Post by: SSY on December 31, 2008, 06:41:07 AM
[quote="Wechtlein Uns"} I mean ignorant goat herders who aren't smart enough to piss upstream and not defacate where they sleep.[/quote]
Don't you mean piss downstream?
Don't you mean piss downstream?
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: seasonsofmadness on December 31, 2008, 07:26:33 AM
Post by: seasonsofmadness on December 31, 2008, 07:26:33 AM
Quote from: "SSY"What makes you think they agree with each other to start with? The bible is chock full of contradictions.Ok, I'm not really sure what I meant by asking about the apostles anyway. I can't really find explanations for them, but I'm assuming that the general view is that they were basically fictional characters anyway.
Quote from: "McQ"Welcome to the forum. I'm sure you will get some good links from folks here. Definitely keep asking questions, and dig for the answers. There are so many good books available on biblical authorship. Try Googling that phrase and see what comes up. I thought the book, "The Gospel Fictions" by Randel Helms wasn't too bad either. Not the best, but a decent read, and addresses your question.Actually I googled "biblical authorship," and it didn't bring up much besides christian sites...
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: dr.zalost on January 01, 2009, 05:19:45 PM
Post by: dr.zalost on January 01, 2009, 05:19:45 PM
OP:
The following site doesn't answer your questions precisely. It also has the disadvantage of being set up to sell a book. There is a good write up on Paul and some other biblical authorship issues however.
http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html
QuoteActually I googled "biblical authorship," and it didn't bring up much besides christian sites...
The following site doesn't answer your questions precisely. It also has the disadvantage of being set up to sell a book. There is a good write up on Paul and some other biblical authorship issues however.
http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: spartacus on January 02, 2009, 07:16:46 PM
Post by: spartacus on January 02, 2009, 07:16:46 PM
can i point you in the direction of certain names
1-ahkenaten, in relation to the ten commandments and monotheism
2- horus, mithras, and jesus and look at the timelines that belief in them began
try and look beyond the old and new testaments and and look at the melting pot of religious ideas that the middle east was. then form your own conclusions
1-ahkenaten, in relation to the ten commandments and monotheism
2- horus, mithras, and jesus and look at the timelines that belief in them began
try and look beyond the old and new testaments and and look at the melting pot of religious ideas that the middle east was. then form your own conclusions
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: DennisK on January 02, 2009, 07:56:59 PM
Post by: DennisK on January 02, 2009, 07:56:59 PM
I like the theories discussed on this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2344 and shown in the linked video. In it talks about the relationship of the apostles to the zodiac. Whether true or not, it makes you think.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: Recusant on January 02, 2009, 08:08:48 PM
Post by: Recusant on January 02, 2009, 08:08:48 PM
Most of the books of the New Testament were written many years after the events they purportedly depict. There is some question as to the actual authors, but it's generally agreed that they were for the most part not the person who's name is on the book, and often there was more than one author for any particular book. It was a fairly common practice back then to write something and attribute it to some prominent figure, to give it more authority.
I don't know that any of them claimed to be the 'voice of God;' (except maybe Paul, he seemed to have a very high opinion of himself as an authority on what God wanted) that is something that churches did when they decided on which books would be included in the Bible, thus making them 'Holy Writ.' I've read the bible a couple of times, but I'm certainly no bible scholar.
I don't know that any of them claimed to be the 'voice of God;' (except maybe Paul, he seemed to have a very high opinion of himself as an authority on what God wanted) that is something that churches did when they decided on which books would be included in the Bible, thus making them 'Holy Writ.' I've read the bible a couple of times, but I'm certainly no bible scholar.
Title: Re: Origins of the Bible and who were the apostles?
Post by: seasonsofmadness on January 04, 2009, 03:09:36 AM
Post by: seasonsofmadness on January 04, 2009, 03:09:36 AM
Quote from: "dr.zalost"The following site doesn't answer your questions precisely. It also has the disadvantage of being set up to sell a book. There is a good write up on Paul and some other biblical authorship issues however.Thanks. That site has a lot of really interesting material. It's gonna take me a while to go through all that...
http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html
Quote from: "Recusant"I don't know that any of them claimed to be the 'voice of God;' (except maybe Paul, he seemed to have a very high opinion of himself as an authority on what God wanted) that is something that churches did when they decided on which books would be included in the Bible, thus making them 'Holy Writ.' I've read the bible a couple of times, but I'm certainly no bible scholar.Yeah I guess you're right that they don't all directly claim to be the voice of God. I was just always taught that all of the Biblical authors were told what to write by God himself.
Thanks for all the responses guys.